you guys are disgusting. what was the mood of this community in 2004-2005? i realize we were coming off of a championship but we struggled that season too.

but now, well before we were ten games into the season we have this "sith" movement of gloomy, depressed "fans" who seem to deplore everything pistons. i can understand questioning the team with ben wallace gone, but this is going too far. how can you make judgements on the long term performance of a team barely 10 games into their season after they have lost their main defensive and rebounding force? wouldnt you need to see at least half a season if not more to see how players would be able to adjust?

you hold on to memories of an era long gone where the pistons would hold teams to 70 or less points for stretches of a season. it's virtually impossible to play that style in today's nba. handchecking and bumping are called now. so when ben wallace leaves and the last semblance of that era leaves with him, the darths abandon hope.

i really think you'd rather see flip and this offensive style team crash and burn instead of succeed. you may not mean it that way but this hopeless negetivity makes it seem like you aren't even fans. maybe fans of the old LB teams but definately not our current team.

We're fans, we're just not slappys who just pony up and grin no matter what poor decisions the team makes.

First, the players were supposed to "adjust" last year during Flip's amazing regular season fool's gold. This year he's supposed to put his "stamp" on the team. I'll pass on that stamp.

Second, if two years is long gone to you, the Bad Boy Era must be pre-historic.

Lastly, thanks for letting me know the Sour Note is doing its job.

you dont have to pony up. just don't count the pistons out because of a 3-5 start.

what do you mean they were supposed to adjust last year? obviously adjusting to the changed dynamic of the team without ben is bigger than whatever adjustments we had to make last year.

how could you possibly judge how the team will adjust in 8 games? or less really... when did you guys all turn darth? had the season even started? so really... you're just as biased as the people hyped by the detroit news. you wrote off the team long before enough of the season was played to judge from.

I think your defeatism is derived from anger over the loss of Ben Wallace.
Some people dealt with it by discounting how much Ben really did for the team or looking at focusing only on the postive aspects of playing 5 v 5 on offense. Others did as you and the other darths did and said "screw this, the "go to work" gritty defensive team the pistons used to be is gone and the pistons suck now."

And yes the bad-boys era is ancient history. That was the fricken 80's, the rules were much different than today's nba. Teams like that don't exist anymore and you can't bring them back.

Why don't you give us a chance?

and p.s. its not the sour note doing its job. you made your feelings clear long before the season even started, spreading your pessimism and dark vibes...

Are you saying that the downward trend of defense by the team since the bottom 1/3 of last season is coincedental and has nothing to do with Flip's system and deficiences as a coach? I don't think there is any doubt that the Going to Work era is dead. The decision to jetisson the Pistons's old approach to winning for a coach's approach who has not achieved post season success is what doesn't sit well with alot of folks. Personally, I walked into the season hoping that Flip would show me something outstanding since he didn't have Ben to bog down his offensive "play book". I'm left less than impressed as I see a team that is easily average to below average defensively and an offense that does not focus on ball movement. I agree that overblown pessisism can be toxic, but in a forum where the general consensus prior to the season opening was that the Pistons will figure it out because they are well, the Pistons....was needed. Flip's coaching and the player's ability to police themselves has been so overrated that it has been to our detriment. Victories would be nice, but ultimately those fans who are not happy with what they see on the court regardless of what the end record shows....would like to see something on the court that says we are capeable of still being the cream of the crop. I haven't seen anything close to that. I haven't seen anything that can be slightly tuned to suggest this is a possiblity. Perhaps you see differently. If so, please share. Otherwise you are completely ignoring what we've seen from this team since the Cleveland series. A team that is searching for an identity and is desperately scrambling to figure out how to win games.

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"Great coach, this team wins the title. Average coach, they get to the ECF repeatedly and fail. Crap coach, this season happens" - The Low

The Pistons where a weak rebounding team last year as well. It's nothing new that they get lose the battle of the boards.
Once more, teams attacked the rim relentlessly last year as well. Ben wasn't his old self, was late on help D and lost some of his leap. It seems like many have forgotten how the young bigs took him to school last year, making him look like the small guy he is.
No coach can lead a team with that roster to a title. NO ONE.
One shouldn't forget that, while many other teams improved their roster, the Pistons weakened their roster on a constant basis. Every team added new, solid or good players while the Pistons failed even to keep the team at the level of 2004. We have seen much talent leaving.
I don't blame solely the coach- Joe D. deserves far more criticism than he's getting.

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I'm a wannabe- GM, but I stand to it.

Ralphi, I think a point that Low has made many times when the Ben dropoff arguement is made is...

...that Ben did not seem to be himself on defense last year because he was called on to play alot more help defense than in the past. The overall defense of the team took a big step back leaving Ben as the only one challenging shots and rebounding. Our perimeter defense was the worse its been in years.

I get the point, but it's contrary to Ben's performance with the Bulls this far. He hasn't been a good shotblocker with the bulls as well and he's also not consistently grabbing boards. Very similar to last year with the Pistons.

Ralphi, prepare for the Darko-esque excuses for Ben now.

Also your 9:00 post is spectacular. Flip deserves blame, but definitely not all of it.

I do not think another coach will be able to get much more out of this team as it is.

Good point.

Results are results.

I do have hope for a turnaround though.

Oddly enough there appears to be a huge drop off in performance with Ben at home versus away games.

Here are his home numbers:

7.7 pts 2.3 steals 2.0 blocks 13.7 boards

(closer to vintage Ben)

Away he is averaging:

4 pts 1.5 steals 1.3 blocks 7.3 boards

Recent games have shown that he is shaking out of his funk on the road.

Anyway.

There is no mistaking that Ben is not the same player he was pre 2004 championship. He used to dominate games defensively a la AK-47. "Ben" a while since we've seen that level of intensity. One thing that is undeniable though is that are defense was statisically far more superior with his presence. He was argueabley just as active last year as he was in 2005 and that was enough to get us back into the Finals. To say that his impact on this team isn't being felt after seeing how this team has performed in the pre and regular season I think is being naive.

I will however agree that this collection of players needs help. They forged their identity defensively by feeding off of Ben's defensive leadership and intensity. That apparently now has left to Chicago. The team needs to either replace Ben with a similar type player and return to playing "Going to Work" basketball or revamp the roster for a new style of play. Either way, I wouldn't trust Flip being a part of any of it.

As I said before, Joe/Billy D. both need to to be looked at with a critical eye for refusing to spend money, putting their trust into a postseason loser and allowing our youth to walk out of the door. Flip is just the bad cook who has been inserting his secret flavor into a once great dish and now made it undigestible. Shame on the management for hiring such a bad cook and shame on them for allowing him to tamper with the ingredients in the first place. It also doesn't help that they replace great cooking tools/seasonings for cheap alternatives.

I also think that come playoff time, Ben's impact will be greatly underestimated. That would be a mistake for anyone in the Eastern Conference.

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"Great coach, this team wins the title. Average coach, they get to the ECF repeatedly and fail. Crap coach, this season happens" - The Low