Yes, the Pistons are starting to show something. Rip will be one of my most favorite players forever and he seems to be widening his talent range even more. Sheed looked really into it and I hope he keeps that attitude. Maybe the 'Sheed Rule' will wind up helping him, if it makes him concentrate more on his game, rather than the histrionics. He can be a very devastating player when he is really into it.

CB looked quite good, too, and it is good to have a point who is really into getting everyone involved. Not many teams have that.

Things are looking up; now if Laimbeer was coaching. Oh, well. Can't have everything. Maybe the assistants will flavor the game plans a little.

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Things appear to be at their darkest . . . . . . . . . just before they go totally black!!

I've already had to make this point with several people prior to your comment.

I don't care what Ben's individual numbers are with the Bulls this year.

I DON'T CARE.

The Bulls don't have our roster.

The bulls didn't have our championship.

The Bull's don't have the best coach in the league and...

The Bulls didn't have Ben Wallace build the defense and the character of their team for the previous 6 years.

THE PISTONS will suffer without Ben Wallace. I never said the Bulls will win the title WITH Ben Wallace.

My concern for Ben Wallace exists SOLELY within the context of his influence on THIS BASKETBALL TEAM.

Flip Saunders system put Ben Wallace in a very poor position. Any coach that insists on using a player in a way that is detrimental to his strengths can expect to see a decline in performance (funny how none of you seem to miss grasping this concept when LB played Williamson at the PF).

I really wish people would stop trying to use his stats this season in CHI to justify him not playing in DET. Apples and Oranges people. Apples and Oranges.

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I don't think the difference is that substantial. A multiple defensive player of the year, multiple all-star and nba champion shouldn't need the perfect situation to excel.
Many other great players have gone into different situations with different teams and performed as they had in the past.

Why is it apples and oranges? He brings the intangibles, effort and hustle. You don't need to run specific plays for that kind of stuff.

You do if your gameplan consists of having 4 of your 5 players outside of the paint 80% of the time.

Supposedly, Ben is trying to suggest to Skiles that the offense needs to come through PJ Brown and Ben in the post more... so they can draw the D and at least pass out of it. Similar to what he was frustrated with in Detroit. Apparently, even coaches that appreciate his skills can't get themselves to put the ball in his hands.

I think Ben misses us just as much as we miss him.

Looking at the stats from the bulls games, Ben is playing under 30 minutes a game. Last night he missed googobs of free throws.

I think Skiles will use the same tactics as Flip when game (s) are on the line. He will bench Ben just for the sake of having someone in there who can shoot the free throws.

Thier record speaks for itself, they are struggling to find continuity just like us.

Looks like this thread is starting to touch on the real question.

Was it a lose-lose for both teams? If Chic had not made that huge offer then Dumars and Ben would have jockyed around for a couple of weeks, similiar to Tay and Sheed, and a deal would have been done. Chic loses Chandler and has paid for a guy that is not a really good fit for them.

I am now trying to look to the future because there is nothing that can be done about it now. It would be easier if Mohammed was not sucking ( I mean adjusting ) so bad.

Comparing Ben to Nazr so far:

Ben 34.7 mpg, 5.2 pts, 9.4 reb, 1.56 blk
Nazr 20.3 mpg, 6.9 pts, 6.6 reb, 1.50 blk

To compare over equal minutes, here are 48 minute-stats:

Ben: 7.2 pts, 13.1 reb, 2.15 blk
Nazr: 16.3 pts, 15.6 reb, 2.94 blk

Nazr is certainly no Ben on defense, but his numbers certainly look pretty good compared to Ben.

Study Mohammed in the next game and let me know what your think. He has been such a defensive liability that Flip has been pulling him early for Dale Davis.

According to 82games, Ben is a -24. He might possibly be the worst starter (plus, minus wise) in the NBA right now.

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Nov 13 LW Milan Lucic had an active night. He scored his first goal in eight games since his Oct. 25 hat trick and also pounded Michael Komisarek in a third-period fight. Lucic cut his hand in a fight with Michael Komisarek. "I'll be fine," he said. "(X-rays are) negative, but there's so many broken bones in there from before you can't really tell."