I am not one to start a thread for the sake of it; but I think this may be useful going forward.

We lost tonight to the Kings. They had 5 road wins before coming to the Palace tonight; they left with 6. 8 players recorded minutes in the game but the starters logged from 34+ to 43 each. Not to mention this was the first game of a back-to-back. Sacramento's Brad Miller played the most minutes for their team; 39. The rest of the team was around 29.

There have long been complaints about the starters logging too many minutes and the bench not getting enough minutes. I think these are the results of a different and more important problem.

Substitution Patterns are bad. Actually they are horrible. I will use tonights game as an example and I think as the season progresses we will be able to see if a pattern develops.

Sacs first sub came in with 5:53 left in the first quarter. The next sub was at the 4:59 mark of the first. So Martin comes in for Salmons and Bibby comes in for Udrih respectively. They are fresh and are playing against our starting guards. This continues til the 1:42 mark where we sub Stuck for Rip. Meanwhile we did match one other sub with them at the 2:58 mark; we bring in Maxiell and they bring in Artest.

In my opinion; this is where the game is lost. We have put a full 12 minutes on everyone but Wallace and Rip from our starters. They each get to rest 1 minute into the 2nd and then it is back to work. Their starters have been on the bench for 5 and 6 minutes while our starters have not had a break.


We are running our guys against players with half the minutes on their legs with shorter rests in between. We are putting ourselves in the hole to start. In order for this to be a winning recipe; our player has to be a lot better then the opposition in order to match him on the offense and defense when we are tired and he is fresh. Having stamina and being able to play 35 to 40 minutes a night would be fine if we HAD to and if the opposition is doing the same thing. The advantage is not putting yourself in a position to HAVE to.


If we are not able to blow our opponent out in the first quarter; the game will be a struggle in the end. Game after game I watch us get out to a lead only to fall back to our opponent. I think this is where the fatigue starts to have its effect. Shots are short, we are slow on the rotations or we reach on defense. These are signs of fatigue and once they show up; it is too late. That is when we start the isos and the one-on-one plays into turnovers.

I need to end this but I think alot of our roation problems and the lack of bench playing would be slved if we subbed more often. CB said tonight in the post-game that the bench has a smaller window on the court to make an impact and they may be pressing. It doesn't have to be this way. Limit the consecutive minutes on the starters and give the bench shorter stints but more opportunities to make a difference.

Bring in Max earlier in the first like at the 6:00 minute mark for Dice. That allows for more sub opportunities in the first and third accordingly. May be able to give AJ the last 2 or 3 minutes of the first quarter and the first 2 or 3 minutes of the second quarter by subbing earlier.

We handcuff ourselves by not subbing in the first quarter. Teams that play the starters for 40 minutes a night do not have any talent on the bench so they have to. That is not the position that Joe has put us in so we shouldn't be playing that way. And I for one am tired of watching us do it.

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Posted by SonicD:
If I had to classify whistles I would have three categories Good, Crappy, and Train.

Great post, I agree 100%.

Good post DD. Flip needs to look at the Phil Jacksons 2006-2007 playbook and rotations. He played and now all of them contribute. Who would have thought that Kobe and a bunch of no names would be #1 in the power rankings, (before Bynum went down).

Good post. Unfortunately, I don't think Flip is ever going to get it. He seems to be weak in this aspect of the game. He's not good with rotations and he's not good with adjustments.

It's amazing what can happen if you give your players time on the court; especially the young ones. Look at the Trailblazers!

It is not just getting players on the court, it is also catering to their strengths. Just like LB tried to make jump shooting Darko into a post up type player, Flip seems to confine Stuckey to the half-court set offense and he's been struggling quite a bit ever since it happened.

Flip's biggest flaw, imo, is he's too involved with his beloved playbook. He doesn't play guys to their strengths. What we have is a very versatile lineup with a second unit that was meant to bring a different set of skills to the table, making the team capable of playing any style on any given night. Flip just wants everyone to play like the starters.

And what happened to running more with the 2nd unit? Stuckey's biggest strengths - as well as Amir's, coincidentally, are best utilized in a faster offense. Max would thrive there too, I think.

M73, I agree but, it's much harder to fit a square peg into a round hole. But the Pistons -Detroit Basketball- is a half court disciplined offense. So if it aint rough it aint right. We must bend the players to our will. Or let them move on.
Detroit Basketball is winning basketball but of late it's not Championship basketball.
Maybe it's time to bend the coaches to the players skills.

Absolutely, I agree with this assessment wholeheartedly. This infamous playbook will be Flip's downfall. He can't seem to be able to think out of the box.

No amount of shuffling the minutes will take the place of simply playing the bench more, and giving the starters more rest.

An 8 man rotation ain't going to cut it as far as resting players. We got 3 guys rotating up front at our bigs positions, and a 3 guard rotation.

It is possible to make things work by bringing in two subs at 6 minutes into the 1st and 3rd quarters. However, the slightest foul trouble ruins such plans.

Now, bringing in all three bench players in at the 6 minute mark, for an 8 man rotation, is a bit more workable. You can give everyone a decent rest, and even have some give in the rotation to cover foul trouble. This assumes of course you have sufficient versatility amongst your players as far as playing multiple positions. The Pistons do.

However, there is one big drawback. You really only can play your starters as a unit for very little each game. And this too can be ok if it causes more confusion for your opponent than it causes for you. But you better have 8 pretty terrific players, or this won't be the case.

Right now, we run a very weak 8 man rotation, featuring two guys, Dyess and Hayes, who are slow on D. Then you have a very skilled rookie, but one who is not comfortable with the sets the coach wants played. Way too many flaws to make an 8 man rotation work.

However, if you had a mind to do it, here is how it could be done:

Billups, Rip, Tay, Dyess, Sheed Start.

JMAX, Hayes, and Stuckey come in at the 6 minute mark of the first quarter. This gives a unit of:

Stuckey, Rip, Hayes, JMAX, Sheed.

To start the 2nd quarter:

Billups, Stuckey, Tay, JMAX, Dyess

Last 6 minutes: Back to your starters.

For minutes, this is, assuming a close game:

Billups 36, Rip 36, Tay 36, Dyess 36, Sheed 36.

Hayes 12, Stuckey 24, JMAX 24.

Your starters do play together for 24 minutes.

Foul trouble to either guard has Tay playing some guard with Hayes playing more at small forward.

Foul trouble to any of your bigs has Hayes playing some power forward.

Foul trouble to Tay has Hayes playing more small forward.