Gotta side with Darth Low on this one. Ben Wallace should have retired a Piston. Period.

Flip Saunders is a tool. No chance we win the title with him... not this year, not ever.

The rule change excuse is simply that. It's not a well reasoned argument. Defense and stops win. Flip's system killed us last year against Miami when we went cold. We did not have those troubles when we went cold with LB at the helm. We still could gut out wins on D alone. Not happening with Flip. Not ever.

I'm going to love this season for many reasons, but I can't say it's because I expect us to be in a Parade next summer.

Reasons- JMax, Us vs. Chi-Town, emergence of a bench, what happens with Billups, will Joe make a Big time trade?, and last but not least---watching Flip Saunders twitch and grind his jaw and tell us why it's OK when the starters are missing everything and playing lazy (just kidding, this one drives me batty)

You'd be at an all-time low two if you were playing an avg of 15 min. per game in the preseason. You will see, trust me.

I know a lot of what a defenesive orientated player like Ben does will not show up on the stat line. Like I wrote I have not seen the Bulls play yet but in scanning the Bulls stats and quickly estimating them out to regular mins it seems like his stats are down. I know its the pre-season but I would imagine that he would be going near 100% given that he has something to prove in front of his new team and fans.

I did read an article where Skiles said that he is getting what he expected from Ben so far ( setting screens, defensive plays, etc.. ) but the question is was last season a fluke or is Ben slowing down. Will they get any of his 10+ block games that we used to get. Can he dominate games like he used to. In other words is he worth 15mil/yr.

On J-Max. I can see Flip just inserting Mohammed as our starting C and going with him, Dyess and Sheed. Based on last season this is probably what I should be expecting but Dumars has been quoted ( I posted in another post ) that he wants J to play. He has had a great pre-season overall and thats better than having a bad one which is some reason to hope.

I get where you're coming from, but what you are seeing in the stats A)cannot be drawn out into 48 min. Because 48 min stat (especially on detnews) have proven to be useless. and B) Skiles is pretty much giving Ben some run to keep the blood pumping, but is really kind of letting him take it easy until the real deal starts. Having said that, after watching his games, he is just as effective with CHI as he was prior to Flip's arrival. I don't expect any drop off in his performance.

As far as the pay goes, if Sheed is worth 11 Mil (and no one gripes about his salary) with all of his Techs and the 3 ptrs that everybody complains about, then you have to honestly entertain whether Ben is at least worth that much seeing what he has done for the franchise as opposed to what Sheed has done for the franchise as a whole. Besides, I never believed we needed to pay Ben 15 Mil. If Davidson was already prepared to give him 12, why not meet him in the middle and cost yourself a measily 1 Mil, pay him 13, and agree to have at least some modest attention to defense this year?

I seriously think he would have stayed for 13 and it hardly would have ruined our chances with any other FA considering they were already prepared to hand out 12 Mil. The reason he got 60 right off the top is because that's what CHI came to the table with. There wasn't this Pistons nickle and dime play to start with 11.6, like the Pistons did, and whittle it up to 12 Mil. Ben Wallace has been pretty straight forward with the front office and they should have known better than to pull that "start low / negotiate up to what we're "really" willing to pay" strategy.

That little game and Flip's insistance on only focusing on the strengths of his "offensive" players is what cost the Pistons Ben Wallace.

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It ultimately comes back to Joe. He knew what he was bringing in. He knew what he was keeping. He Let Ben go. I think it was in order to take advantages of his coaches strengths.

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Now there's a vision... Brahma going in for a power slam and the only one standing in the way is Ben... whew must see TV.

A power Slam??

Ben would let him go........

Low - would you be willing to entertain the idea that this goes a little beyond Flip. That there could have been a greater issue or issues at stake like not calling out the coach in the middle of the playoffs or not being a team player.

I don't know what went on but it did not seem like either side was interested in continuing Bens employment here. That Dumars offer was more of a mock attempt for the media. Don't think he ever expected Ben to actually take it.

Maybe someone will write a book someday and let us know what was really going on because its not as simple as money or Flips style. Perhaps he was stomping around on the practice floor with golf spikes on for all I know.

Low stats and hustle plays was never a way to describe Ben in the past. Thats what we used to say about Curry.

Sorry to but-in, but my response to that question is 'No'. The team was extremely cohesive before Flip got here...even through all of the LB ruckus. Did any player ever criticize LB through all that stuff?...not a soul...some may have had differences with LB, but all the players respected him for his coaching. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Flip.

For all we know, Flip was flicking boogers at Ben from under the rim during FT practice. I'd love to see that book...who's gonna write it? I know it won't be Flip, unless he grows some kohonees.

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We don't need to play the blame game... Ben got an outrageous offer and it was too steep for ownership... good or bad decision... we haven't seen the results yet.