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I think they mean: o rebounding D rebounding points in the paint D rotation And in the ECFs, jump shooting....

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2006, 01:40 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

I think they mean:
o rebounding
D rebounding
points in the paint
D rotation
And in the ECFs, jump shooting.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2006, 04:16 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLaimbeer
What exactly did the Pistons sacrifice?
Well rounded play by the starting 5 (as reflected in DBA's analysis) and an emphasis on defensive play that was their trademark the previous two seasons.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:17 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheeTFD
I think they mean:
o rebounding
D rebounding
points in the paint
D rotation
And in the ECFs, jump shooting.
..and this too.

Thanks for the assist TheeTFD.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:22 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLaimbeer
When you throw in all of the editorial comments like this, it destroys all of the great research that you've done. I stopped reading your article after this paragraph. If you have some great statistical evidence to present, let it stand on its own behalf.
I disagree. I think DBA's research without his opinions on how the data should be interpreted are just that...research. Personally, I agree with his assessment. The great thing about this article is that you can look at the figures he's come up with and make up your own opinions accordingly. I'm sure he would welcome your take on his numbers.

What do you think the numbers show?

Last edited by MotownPride : 07-19-2006 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:42 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLaimbeer
When you throw in all of the editorial comments like this, it destroys all of the great research that you've done. I stopped reading your article after this paragraph. If you have some great statistical evidence to present, let it stand on its own behalf.
On the one hand I regret that anything I write would make someone stop reading. Obviously that's not the way it should work. Good writing should make you want to continue. I would hope that readers would continue if for no other reason than to prove me wrong.

On the other hand, any analysis is by definition editorializing. Even how data are presented is editorializing in that particular data are selected, other data omitted, particular formats used, others not, etc. Regardless, I certainly don't apologize for having a POV since that does seem the purpose of writing anything here. I try to justify any POV I put down and thought I had done so here.

So, while I certainly respect your right to disagree, I don't think I'm too far out on a limb saying that if what was reported in the press all season as a change in how the Pistons play - from a defense first team to an offense first one - was actually true, then somehow they ought to have managed to put up a few more than two points a game. It's also kind of hard not to characterize this year's offense as one dependent on the three point shot as they made more than 50% more than last year.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:58 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Offering a load of statistical data without some interpretation is pointless. Getting people to agree or disagree with the conclusions or opinions stimulates scrutiny. Needless to say, any conclusion will have it's critics.

I'm not just saying this to say this. It's your best work yet dba, largely in part because you added some style and attitude to the stats. We're lucky to have you.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:08 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

I love arguments that have some data to back them up. Of course you should summarize your findings and draw some conclusions. My point was simply that after reading the introductory paragraph, it's obvious their is some hatred of Flip Saunders. I don't think you need to start slamming the coach at that point. It turned me off. Just my opinion.
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Old 07-19-2006, 05:19 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLaimbeer
I love arguments that have some data to back them up. Of course you should summarize your findings and draw some conclusions. My point was simply that after reading the introductory paragraph, it's obvious their is some hatred of Flip Saunders. I don't think you need to start slamming the coach at that point. It turned me off. Just my opinion.
Frankly, I didn't start the article as LB vs. FS, just figured part way through that since that was the major change in the team, it might be a good way to spin the whole thing.

Anyway, I certainly don't hate Flip. I really hope that the interview posted today is true - that he held back and wasn't himself last year in order to try and maintain the status quo. Without being in the locker room it's hard for any of us to know how he may or may not have been torpedoed by various players. Maybe that was the reason the team never got more than part way through the playbook. What I do see though is a team that started great guns and never managed to find new wrinkles when the rest of the league started to figure out how to defend their sets. Whether that was the fault of Flip, the players, or both is sure going to come out in another couple of months or so.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:52 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

I read your article, DBA. Nice work. I appreciate all of the numbers.

As much as I appreciate the work done for the '04 Championship, it's hard to look back fondly at LB after witnessing his antics over the past 2 years.

The loss of Ben will certainly help the Pistons points in the paint numbers. First, it will put a more offensive player on the floor. Second, it will force teams to play 5-on-5 defensively and open things up for the entire team.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:29 PM
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Re: Larry Versus Flip: The Cage Match

Very nice article. I think it needs to be sent to Joe D, Coach Flip and company so they can see the difference between the coaching philosophies of a coach who won a championship and one trying to win one.
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