by Ken Shouler of ESPN - I think Memo, DMC, Delfino and a few other Pistons can relate to this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=2397622

Buddhafan,

http://www.pistonsforum.com/images/picdump/argh-eek.gifhttp://www.pistonsforum.com/images/picdump/argh-eek.gifhttp://www.pistonsforum.com/images/picdump/argh-eek.gifhttp://www.pistonsforum.com/images/picdump/argh-eek.gif

Coaching the Knicks is my:pray: "dream job" :pray:

Man was he dreamin'!

Nothing makes me happier than knowing NY fan is suffering.
Oh, and I love the plentiful NY media bellyacheing and crying out loud.
Cry you noisey, nosey, lifeless, mercenaries. Cry like a hungry baby.
And...
SUFFER ! :nod:

"I've made every team I ever coached better, every one. Look, I've been coaching how many years? I never left a team in worse shape than I got it. Not one. Now think about that. Think about me and think about the guy who's talking. I never left a team in worse shape. Never asked anything of my players any different than I'm doing right now. Think about that. Think about that. So the bottom line is, I want us to rebound, defend, share the ball, play hard. That's all. If you can't do that, if that's not important enough to you, it's not on me. It's not on me."
Larry Brown

NY Knicks 2003/2004 – 39 up, 43 down 0.476 winning percentage
NY Knicks 2004/2005 – 33 up, 49 down 0.402 winning percentage
NY Knicks 2005/2006 (YTD) – 19 up, 54 down 0.260 winning percentage

And today Larry wonders aloud in the press if he will be fired. The one thing that does seem clear is that something has to change in the streets of Gotham. Larry, Isiah, Dolan, and the Knicks players – probably need to get rid of any two in order to get the franchise back on the right path. And given that Chairmen or Governors (or whatever Dolan’s title is) rarely fire themselves, suddenly Larry’s odds don’t look too good.

I don’t know that I ever understood exactly why Larry was sent packing from Detroit. Loyalty, disloyalty, style, personality, airing too much laundry in the press, and most importantly the direction of the team all rolled together to create a mess that Joe D and Mr. Davis chose a clear path through. If the Pistons had won the last six minutes of game seven, would Larry have stayed? I’m guessing so, but I’m also guessing the decision had been made well before the players took the court that day.

I always liked Larry, warts, bad plumbing, and all, though I surely didn’t have to play for him. If nothing else, I always felt his heart was in the right place, and that means a lot. But I guess hubris makes chumps of us all, and Larry sure wasn’t hiding behind the door when the good Lord gave it out. I’d like to think that he went to the Knicks for reasons other than pride, that he didn’t let himself be ruled by that part of him who felt betrayed and that prideful part that wouldn’t let him step back and evaluate his position in life and in his career. I’d like to think that, but I’m not really sure I can believe it.

I think Larry took the no win job because he was afraid of being seen as a failure, afraid of life without the basketball adrenaline drug. In some weird way it makes him all the more human and all the more understandable. If the axe does fall again, I hope Larry won’t make the same pride guided mistake and leap into a new no win situation. But I wouldn’t bet money.

Is it time for feel sorry for Larry? Not because he was a pawn, but because he acted for all the wrong reasons, but still acted. We could use us a good Greek playwright, for surely this is the stuff of tragedy.

I think the article misses the point. Larry Brown has not had some dramatic change of coaching style or personality. He is the same guy he has always been. The same guy that battled with AI, the same guy that coached his way into the Hall of Fame with his cantankerous methods....

Are the Knick fans saying they didn't know what they were getting? They were duped? The clash with Starbury came as a surprise? Is there anyone in the free world who has ever watched an NBA game that didn't know that LB and MArbury would clash? No...I didn't think so..

So how does this mess fall on LB. He did exactly what he always does...no surprises. Ho health issues to speak of...but somehow there is an outrage because he did exactly what he was hired to do? Hmmmm.

Should the guy who hired him and put together this mess of a team maybe take a bit of the blame? Or is it easier to lay it on the doddering old dinosaur?

@dba - I like Larry as well. For his flaws probably more than his strengths. He's one of the few "characters" left in the NBA, a league that has been sanitized and homogenized for the Sprite/Nike generation.

I suppose that is why I like Ron Artest too. The league needs villains and weirdos. It needs flavour.

Unfortunately, the media is so relentless (particularly on the internet) that when they demonize someone, they don't build his reputation as a foil, they destroy him as a human being. It's sad. Because all we are left with is Dennis Rodman outside the HOF and LeBron James in our faces 24/7 before he has played (let alone won) a playoff game.

The reality is that if a team is not ready for Larry Brown's brand of basketball they will fail. Larry needs control of the organization or to be paired with someone that shares his thoughts on player evaluations. The theatrics with the media have always been part of the package, The Larry Brown Recipe. Here are the directions:

Larry introduces new system
Larry brings in players/molds players to support system
Wins increase
Larry theatrics take toll on team
Team begins to underachieve
Larry bolts
Cycle continuesSo what has this chicken tasting like wood (Sugar Hill reference ;) ) ? The season in New York has been a complete disaster. Its what happens when steps 1 and 2 don't get executed successfully. And now we wonder if it is the players or Larry's inability to adapt those players to his system? Personally, I think the Knicks woes are more of a reflection of the bizzare collection of talent Zeke has assembled versus Larry's inablity to adapt his system to the players on the roster. Unfortunately step 4 is settling in before the wins have had an opportunity to accumulate. ...the end result will be that someone gets fired.

As I read more and more of Larry's in-press comments I am beginning to see that we probably got all we were going to get from LB. Bill Davidson got it right again. Zeke sucks as a GM and it was best that we severed the ties with LB when we did. Otherwise, maintaining our starting five and maintaining a winning, healthy team first philosophy would have been a challenge for years to come. You can't promote the "Pistons basketball" team first philosophy when you have a head coach that constantly promotes his agenda in front of whats best for the team.

Thank God this is no longer our problem.

Thank God this is no longer our problem.

Our first house in Chicago was a beautiful gut rehab of a 19th century townhouse. Really pretty, with a great layout, everything was wonderful for a couple of years. The longer we lived there, the more we saw things that the contractor didn’t do all that well (in some cases did really badly), the more cracks in the basement walls, etc. (I’ll avoid the obvious plumbing analogies.) Pretty soon we were more worried about what was going to go wrong than we were enjoying living in the house. It’s hard to describe the sense of relief when we sold it for a nice chunk of change and moved on.

Bittersweet, you know, sad to see it go, but really happy for having moved on.

Not feeling sorry for Larry. Not for a minute. Now he's angling for another team to choose between a public display of love (i.e., dumping players and/or firing Thomas) and buying him out for a heinous amount of money. God, I wish my inner turmoil paid so well.

He had one of maybe two situations in the NBA where his brittle, neurotic act could be accommodated by highly professional players and just the right kind of management, and it wasn't enough. If he's not man enough to stick it out in New York, let him leave the Knick money on the table and actually go coach kids.

He is the same guy he has always been.

I'm not so sure about that.

With Brown you always took the bad with the good. I think he is the same "X's" & "O's" guy, but maybe with age and success he has become more full of himself...to the point where the bad now heavily outweighs the good.

The guy won a championship with the Pistons. (I believe he credits himself in his mind...IMO, Sheed was actually the piece that made the team greater than the Carlisle teams) Compare the records before Sheed arrived.

The guy always had an ego, but maybe now it's way out of check. He wins an NBA championship and then gets a ridiculous contract to coach his dream team in a city teeming with media (he loves the spotlight). Did this go to his already big head? Yes, I think it overloaded.

I do believe he HAS changed (for the worse), and is now pretty much intolerable and ineffective. Yeah, I think Isiah stinks as a GM and ownership deserves equal blame. But we are talking about Larry, and if he did what Phil Jackson is doing, I believe a lot of people would be saying what a genius he is and how dumb the Pistons were for letting him go.

I'm with TFD on this one (Did I really say that?). I enjoy watching Larry and the city of New York fail miserably and point the fingers of blame.

Personally, I cannot stand Phil Jackson, either, but I do believe he is an excellent coach...much more effective than Brown.

The best coach in the NBA? Popovich, IMO. He has Brown's knowledge of the game and a fantastic rapport with his players. He keeps them disciplined yet they like and respect the guy. He doesn't point fingers or take credit for his players accomplishments.

I loved Larry's comments last year when Sheed blew the Horry game..."It's my fault, I told him a hundred times, but I should have told him more until he got it, that's a coaches job..." (That's not an exact quote, but it was something like that). Well, wasn't he really saying..."How many times do I need to tell that dumbass what to do?..it ain't my fault". (No, Larry...it was not your fault...but did you really have to make that comment to blame the guy under the guise of protecting him?)

Popovich is Luke Skywalker to Larry's Darth Vader. Larry succumbed to the powers of the Dark side. His strengths are no longer used for good, and are now a destructive force to teams... especially those already weak of mind and talent like the Knicks. The bad has overshadowed the good.

It's amazing that the Pistons made the playoffs last year with LB coaching.

I loved Larry's comments last year when Sheed blew the Horry game..."It's my fault, I told him a hundred times, but I should have told him more until he got it, that's a coaches job..." (That's not an exact quote, but it was something like that). Well, wasn't he really saying..."How many times do I need to tell that dumbass what to do?..it ain't my fault". (No, Larry...it was not your fault...but did you really have to make that comment to blame the guy under the guise of protecting him?)



You said it, Darth. The above is quintessential lb.4lb.:nod:

Here are the actual quotes, from the Finals media availabilty pressers. I don't see once in there where he put it on Sheed or implied that it was all the player's fault.

I'm always big on getting the actual quote and not paraphrasing from memory. It's too easy to unintentionally spin something with personal perception, and when it's just a google search away, why not aim for accuracy.

Q. The defense on the play that they inbounded with nine seconds left, was Sheed supposed to trap on that play? What happened on the play?

COACH LARRY BROWN: I guess there was miscommunication, but ultimately it's on me. You know, we talked about what we wanted to do, and he made a shot, made a great shot.

After it was over, we still had a chance. We're down one, we had 5.5 seconds. But up two with nine seconds to go, you talk about the things all year that you want to accomplish, and unfortunately we had a little miscommunication. You know, if everybody gets it, then you know you don't get in that situation. If everybody doesn't, it ultimately falls on me, so obviously we didn't get it.

Q. Coach, how big of a challenge is it now to go into San Antonio and winning those two games?

COACH LARRY BROWN: I have to get over this one. This was tough. We had a great opportunity. One, it was a heck of a game, and you've got to give them credit. Robert made some huge shots when they needed it. They defended great and did a lot of good things.

It's the kind of game you hate to see anybody lose, so we've got to just bounce back. We haven't won down there in a long time. We've got to figure out a way to realize that we've got to make it a one game series.

Q. Robert Horry so many times in his career has come up big in the playoffs, can you talk about his energy and the spark that he provide for the Spurs team?

COACH LARRY BROWN: Well, he made five out of six threes and made a big drive late. He did everything. He defended well. That's why I think he has five rings. He's a big time player. In moments like that, that's the difference. I have a lot of respect for that team and him, and what he's been able to do throughout his career. You don't play on championship caliber teams unless you have what he has. He's done it with Houston, he's done it with L.A. and now he's done it with San Antonio, and he usually does it at the most important time.

Q. At what point during the tight game when you watched Robert Horry hit one three and then the other do you start stressing to your players, don't leave him alone?

COACH LARRY BROWN: We did that two months ago. You know, you're up two with nine seconds to go, all you're thinking of is, no three point shots. Worst thing that can happen to you is a lay up, you've still got two time outs.

We've talked about it all the time. A couple of them he made with a hand up, but two we just left him. I have no explanation, but in big games, guys are trying their best. He still had to make the shots. Regardless, he still had to make them.

Again, somebody asked me something a while back about the fact that we didn't have any close games, what will happen if you get in it and if your team has been prepared for situations like that, and my response is, you do that from day one. You know, every practice you go over situations like that. It's not something that can all of a sudden because it's a 30 point game, go to a close game. You go over those things every single day. You talk about it. We always talk about late clock, switching late clock, and never trapping because you know the shot ultimately is going to come up.

But again, sometimes things like that happen. But he still had to make the shot, and you've got to give him credit for that. My background, down two, I'm damned if I let my guy take a three. I'm telling them nine seconds, we'll take it to the rim, get fouled, get a chance to offensive rebound. That's how dumb I am.

Here are the actual quotes, from the Finals media availabilty pressers. I don't see once in there where he put it on Sheed or implied that it was all the player's fault.

I'm always big on getting the actual quote and not paraphrasing from memory. It's too easy to unintentionally spin something with personal perception, and when it's just a google search away, why not aim for accuracy.

Q. The defense on the play that they inbounded with nine seconds left, was Sheed supposed to trap on that play? What happened on the play?

COACH LARRY BROWN: I guess there was miscommunication, but ultimately it's on me. You know, we talked about what we wanted to do, and he made a shot, made a great shot.

you talk about the things all year that you want to accomplish, and unfortunately we had a little miscommunication. You know, if everybody gets it, then you know you don't get in that situation. If everybody doesn't, it ultimately falls on me, so obviously we didn't get it.


I didn't "unintentionally" put a spin on anything. What bothers me is an unintentionally condescending attitude.

That is my perception of what he meant by what he said. I am not aware of any forum rules:

(1) prohibiting paraphrasing a quote from memory.

(2) Giving an OPINION on what somebody really meant by a quote.

I stand by what I said. I do not believe the actual quote you researched changes the spirit of my interpretation of what Brown said. What was the purpose of Brown's comments? Everyone knew it wasn't Brown's fault. But he is so insecure he just had to get that dig. Why didn't he just say, "yeah, he made a big mistake...but you know, it shouldn't have come down to that. I should have used the bench. It's really my fault, not his." ??? If he wanted to protect his players he would have said that.

But I guess you can fool some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."...sorry, I'm not going to google it to get the exact words...I'm sure most people get my drift.

Argument to the contrary:

http://www.truehoop.com/2005-playoffs-194-rasheeds-defensive-breakdown.html

http://www.truehoop.com/2005-playoffs-210-one-more-time-larry-brown-blamed-rasheed.html

I didn't "unintentionally" put a spin on anything. What bothers me is an unintentionally condescending attitude. You know, I purposely bold unintentional to make it clear that I don't think you did it with ill purpose (aware of fragile forum egoes), and you start crying about someone refuting your statement. You can't have it both ways.

If you're going to put an opinion out there, be prepared to get an opposing one, or asked for/provided with factual information. When you paraphrase, you take the risk of being inaccurate.

That is my perception of what he meant by what he said. I am not aware of any forum rules:

(1) prohibiting paraphrasing a quote from memory.

(2) Giving an OPINION on what somebody really meant by a quote. There are no forum rules for that. My point was that the actual quotes to make your case are readily available, and I thought your paraphrasing was pretty one sided and biased. Hence, why I posted the actual quotes so folks can draw their own conclusions.

I stand by what I said. I do not believe the actual quote you researched changes the spirit of my interpretation of what Brown said. And that's your prerogative.

What was the purpose of Brown's comments? Everyone knew it wasn't Brown's fault. But he is so insecure he just had to get that dig. Why didn't he just say, "yeah, he made a big mistake...but you know, it shouldn't have come down to that. I should have used the bench. It's really my fault, not his." ??? If he wanted to protect his players he would have said that. How can you read that and see that he is throwing Sheed under the bus? He's doing everything he can to credit Horry with making a big play rather than his guys for coming up lame.

Don't gloss over this...

I have no explanation, but in big games, guys are trying their best.
But I guess you can fool some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."...sorry, I'm not going to google it to get the exact words...I'm sure most people get my drift. I'm sure they do. You're probably in popular company with the number of people who would like to discredit EVERYTHING he did in Detroit, that none of it was to his credit, or that he had any positive influence on the players. That the 2004 championship was in spite of him and not because of him. Again, that's your prerogative.

I normally steer clear of these because I realize my opinion is in the minority, and Larry certainly did not do ANYTHING when he exited the Pistons organization to give me a leg to stand on with regards to his character.

Just the same, it's how I feel and like any good story, there is more than one side and plenty of debate.

From TrueHoop

http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-10367-isiah-thomas-is-the-new-bob-whitsitt.html

Isiah Thomas is the New Bob WhitsittThat would be the executive who assembles the super-talented roster that won't play hard or together.

Here are some depressing Knick quotes from Howard Beck's article in today's New York Times:

Larry Brown: "I never in my life thought I'd have to be in a position where you're begging guys to play... Somehow, you've got to find five guys that care enough to compete."

Quentin Richardson: "I played for the Clippers when we were bad. I ain't never been around nothing like this. I never lost games like this. And it just seems like we don't care."

Malik Rose: "We miss a shot and we're not helping one another. Guys are getting layup after layup after layup, no one's helping anybody out there, and then we don't come down and share the ball. I don't understand that. It's not what I'm used to... Will [talking] make a difference? I don't know. I doubt it, to be honest. But at this point, it's to a point where I had to say something. And if it falls on deaf ears, so be it. I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing...I can't control people's attitudes at this point in the year. We're so set in what we've been doing, it's like if you want to do it that way, fine, do it. But I'm not doing it that way."

Steve Francis: "Besides my mom passing away when I was 18, this is top three — just because this is my livelihood. I think a lot of the players don't realize that you really have only one basketball career, and it doesn't last as long as you think. The money might be there, but actually being out on the court, that doesn't last. Until people realize that, until people realize that you have to help each other and not be so selfish and worry about how many points you score, we're going to be stuck in the same position, same place."

Quentin Richardson: "I take my hat off to Coach, the whole coaching staff. I don't know how they made it this far."

Larry's definitely not blameless, but he's not the biggest or only problem in NY.

You know, I purposely bold unintentional to make it clear that I don't think you did it with ill purpose (aware of fragile forum egoes), and you start crying about someone refuting your statement. You can't have it both ways.

If you're going to put an opinion out there, be prepared to get an opposing one, or asked for/provided with factual information. When you paraphrase, you take the risk of being inaccurate.

What are you babbling about? Condescending and patronizing. Very Larry Brownish. Read my statement again. My complaint was regarding your ever-present attitude toward those that do not agree with you or kiss your behind. I never implied that you meant I did it with "ill purpose". I don't even care what you thought. I dont need you to interpret my intent or protect my feelings/ego. They are obviously not nearly as fragile as your own.

Please don't accuse me of taking exception to your disagreeing with my opinion. That had nothing to do with anything. My complaint was with your whining about people not using exact quotes. Please do not change the issue.

Yeah, it's your playground and your ball. Doesn't mean we have to be blind to your B.S. all the time. TALK ABOUT BABIES.


There are no forum rules for that. My point was that the actual quotes to make your case are readily available, and I thought your paraphrasing was pretty one sided and biased. Hence, why I posted the actual quotes so folks can draw their own conclusions.

And that's your prerogative.

How can you read that and see that he is throwing Sheed under the bus? He's doing everything he can to credit Horry with making a big play rather than his guys for coming up lame.

Don't gloss over this...

How can you read that and NOT see it?


I'm sure they do. You're probably in popular company with the number of people who would like to discredit EVERYTHING he did in Detroit, that none of it was to his credit, or that he had any positive influence on the players. That the 2004 championship was in spite of him and not because of him. Again, that's your prerogative.

You are assuming. No facts to back it up...but again, your own rules never apply to you...do they? Since you have so much time to rsearch and you take this all so seriously, why don't you research my past comments in which I took exception to statements saying that Brown had nothing to do with the Pistons success. YOU are the one taking the all or nothing approach...not I.


Sorry for disagreeing with you...I didn't mean to disturb the retirement home atmosphere of this forum. You can go back to sleep now. I have to be off to work in a few minutes, but thanks for the fun time.:bored: :)

Argument to the contrary:

http://www.truehoop.com/2005-playoffs-194-rasheeds-defensive-breakdown.html

http://www.truehoop.com/2005-playoffs-210-one-more-time-larry-brown-blamed-rasheed.html
Thank you for finding that LanierFan. You are a scholar and a gentleman. :nod:

Larry's definitely not blameless, but he's not the biggest or only problem in NY.

Yeah...you can't talk about it on a Pistons forum though. You can't rip into our hero Isiah Thomas. We love him. The guy gave his heart to win two Championships.

He has made a mess in NY. As a GM our beloved Zeke is a total imbecile. He has become a joke...and yet we are much more comfortable ripping into Larry Brown because he is such a flawed character...he is easy to dump on.

Your right Micro he's not the biggest problem in NY. Could Scott Layden have done any worse??

...I didn't mean to disturb the retirement home atmosphere of this forum

Amen Darth! We need to get out of our rocking chairs once in a while...dang it's boring when everyone just agrees on everything. A little spat never hurt anyone.

Yeah...you can't talk about it on a Pistons forum though. You can't rip into our hero Isiah Thomas. We love him. The guy gave his heart to win two Championships.

He has made a mess in NY. As a GM our beloved Zeke is a total imbecile. He has become a joke...and yet we are much more comfortable ripping into Larry Brown because he is such a flawed character...he is easy to dump on.

Your right Micro he's not the biggest problem in NY. Could Scott Latden have done any worse??

Personally, I believe Isiah deserves a lot more loyalty from us than Larry. He did a lot more for this organization. In a sense, he built it. Larry got a free ride.

That being said, IMO, Isiah shares equal blame with Larry for the situation in New York. He should not be immune to any criticism for the New York situation...or any other criticism for that matter. But this thread was about LB and that is why I was talking about him and not Isiah. I was initially responding to a comment regarding whether or not LB has changed.

Amen Darth! We need to get out of our rocking chairs once in a while...dang it's boring when everyone just agrees on everything. A little spat never hurt anyone.
The only problem is, Darth doesn't bring any "game". He just hides behind the "micro is oppressing me because it's his board" nonsense.

I imagine DT lives much of his life blaming others for his problems and shortcomings. Not unlike Larry Brown. Maybe they are related?

In that case, I would have to say I like Darth because he reminds me of Larry.

Darth, you are ok with me.

In that case, I would have to say I like Darth because he reminds me of Larry.

Darth, you are ok with me.

Is that one of those backhanded compliments Micro?

Okay you guys, keep it civil. Nobody's changing any outcomes or opinions, so why get heated up? Save it for Miami.

Trouble is, regardless of their individual strengths, Zeke and Larry are a perfect storm as a management team. Neither calms or balances the other, the way Joe did for both. So there's plenty of blame to go around.

And for the record, I think Larry did point a finger at Sheed. Not because he's malicious or insecure, but because he just can't shut up when he should.

And for the record, I think Larry did point a finger at Sheed. Not because he's malicious or insecure, but because he just can't shut up when he should.

I was pretty pissed at Sheed right after that play too, I am NOT a fan of LB, but I imagine it was pretty hard to stay calm after such a boneheaded play. I mean, how many tens of thousands of Pistons fans were sitting in front of the t.v., just before the ball was inbounded, saying:

"Don't give up a three. Don't give up a three. Don't give up a three. Don't give... WHAT THE @#$&!!! ARE YOU @#$% KIDDING ME!! SHEED! WHAT THE @#$% WERE YOU THINKING!!"

Am I wrong? I think those were my EXACT words.

Now I understand that a coach is expected to have more poise than that, but in the heat of the moment - and given that we already know LB is a jerk ;) - I didn't think his comments were that bad. He definately didn't fall on the grenade, but I also don't think he threw Sheed directly under the bus.

I look at it more like when you're asked to volunteer for something crappy. You casually nudge the guy next to you forward just a tad while simultaneously clearing your throat and taking a half step back, trying to blend in with your surroundings while making no eye contact whatsoever.

Larry,
sucks
Been to a bunch of Knicks games this year, and the one thing I've seen is that Larry does not coach to win. He's coaching to get players to play his way. He'll break up a unit that's winning because someone did something stupid on one play.

Losing the right way as opposed to winning the wrong way is ok in amateur sports, but not the NBA. The worst thing LB did this year was to not get his team to play the best that THEY could play. He wants them to play his way or no way. Which is why he'll be fired.

After watching this spectacle, I'm pretty sure he'd bench Dirk for shooting too many jumpers, bench Wade for not making the extra pass, waive Kobe for being Kobe, and bench Shaq for not playing D. Larry's a perfectionist, the Pistons ruined him, he thinks every guard should play like CB, and every Center like Ben. Well I'm sure they would if they could, but they can't, and it's up to a good coach to get the best he can out of them, not play like an allstar or i wont play you.

BTW,
The reason the Pistons are so good this year, is that the Pistons are essentially great offensive players that can play D (not counting Ben). Larry wanted them to be great Defensive players that can play O. We won once that way, but then came up short.

Now, we're dominating, and barring some bizarre setback with the bench putting us in some insurmountable hole, we will win again, because Flip plays the starters to their strenghths. Which for Rip, CB, Tay, and Sheed is putting the rock in the hole.

Been to a bunch of Knicks games this year, and the one thing I've seen is that Larry does not coach to win. He's coaching to get players to play his way. He'll break up a unit that's winning because someone did something stupid on one play.

I completely agree, but Larry's been doing that for years. That shouldn't come as a surprise. LB strips players down to nothing and then builds them back up to the player he wants them to be. I'm not saying I agree with his approach, just that its been LB's MO for decades. Its not like he's a new coach in the league. Zeke knew what he was getting.

Personally I couldn't be happier!

I have not really been following the Knicks so this is a novice opinion.

Larry has Marbury and Farancise who are both unconventional guards. They put up stats but don't always play the right way or what one would expect them to do - especially LB.

Seems to me that LB would have been better off just stepping back and letting these guys play. I would not have expected a serious challenge in the East but they should have at least made the post-season and gave the NY fans something to cheer about.

Now like a cold slap in the face they will get a top 3 pick and have to hand it over to the Bulls.

After watching this spectacle, I'm pretty sure he'd bench Dirk for shooting too many jumpers...,

Well, that's pretty hard to argue with. Larry probably would bench Dirk at some point.

And jammer - I believe my actual words were "No, Sheed, nooooooooo..."

I think Larry did everything he could to take the spotlight off Sheed after that play (the quote). There wasn't anything he could say that was going to make anyone believe that Sheed didn't (in hindsight) mess up. Sheed made a basketball choice. He reacted to the situation and went to trap a guard in the corner. More times than not they would have forced a turnover and we wouldn't be in this conversation.

Anyway, I believe it was micro a few pages back who admitted to liking Larry as much for his flaws as for his strengths and I'm in that camp too. Unfortunately in NY, he is in a situation (perhaps in the majority of his own making - I'm not an apologist) where his flaws are all that come through.

@Max - I like (strong emphasis on like, not "love") Larry but I have not followed the Knicks except as it pertains to my fantasy players (Curry, Lee, Crawford at various points of the season). I just know that Stephon Marbury is not a winner, and Jamal Crawford is a chucker. I thought LB might be able to sort them out, but he hasn't. It's a players' league which makes what Joe does, building a team with emphasis on character and talent so important for success.

@dba - I think that today's rapid fire, instant press release, searching for a scandal media can make or crush a reputation overnight. Hence the need for players' and anyone steeping in front of a microphone to undergo media sensitivity training.

I love getting the news as it happens, but I wonder if we would have had a Ty Cobb, or Babe Ruth, or Bobby Layne if all of their exploits and idiosyncrasies were constantly under the microscope, analyzed to death by forum and blog hacks like ourselves.

I enjoy character in sports. The heroes, the villains, the oddballs and the average joes struggling to make a career. It's almost as much fun for me as watching the ball go through the hoop.

I love getting the news as it happens, but I wonder if we would have had a Ty Cobb, or Babe Ruth, or Bobby Layne if all of their exploits and idiosyncrasies were constantly under the microscope, analyzed to death by forum and blog hacks like ourselves.

I enjoy character in sports. The heroes, the villains, the oddballs and the average joes struggling to make a career. It's almost as much fun for me as watching the ball go through the hoop.

Love these last two paragraphs. I am of the same mind. People worry about the dumbing down of America, but I am just as worried about the white breading of character. :fear:

One of my favorite memories of Bobby Layne, a commited roue (accent egu), was his being stopped by a cop at 3 or 4 in the morning after a hard night of carousing. The cop suggested that his manner of speech indicated that he had been drinking. But the irrepressible Bobby insisted that he hadn't been drinking, although he could understand how a northerner might confuse his Texas accent with the slurred speech of someone less responsible than he.

I also liked his assertion, "It is my intention to run out of money and breath at the same time." :rockon: