I saw on NBATV ticker today while watching Game 5 of Sixers/Rockets Conference final in '77 (Blazermania), that Cleveland signed Alan Henderson. It seems that Lebron will have quite a different crew this season. Could be interesting to watch how it unfolds. I bet they beat out Miami. You heard it here first! What do you guys think?

I think you could very well be right for two reasons.

1) Shaq is way overdue for a serious injury. I'm not wishing it on him but I say he goes out for the season with a knee, achilles or some other season ending injury. He's been very lucky.

2) Too much change. For a team that was so close to getting in the Finals they messed around with the lineup too much. Bringing in Walker and Williams could create a chemical explosion.

Plus Stan Van Jeremy is a weiner.

I think out of all the teams in the East (besides the Pistons) the Cavs have the best chance of beating the Heat. I believe Lebron is the best player in the league right now, by far, and there is no one out there that can stop him if he gets going.

Maybe there might be an issue with their lack of experience but I'm a firm believer that the power of the fact that Lebron > Wade is enough. People have to be stupid to even think that Wade is better than Lebron.

Wade may have a better organization who put a better team around him so far but by athleticism/skill and soon-to-be growing leadership, James is the winner. He's stepping up his game every year and is going to be a forced to be reckoned with. Even Shaq went to see his high school games and respects this kid's talent.

With Hughes/Marshall/Iggy/Jones as their starting five and Gooden/Snow and a healthy Varejao...it's gonna be a lot more penetrating (James/Hughes) and dishing out for threes (Marshall/Jones) all year round.

Wade may have a better organization who put a better team around him so far but by athleticism/skill and soon-to-be growing leadership, James is the winner.

I'm definitely not saying that Wade is better than Lebron, but the gap is not that large. Wade was amazing prior to Shaq's arrival. In a year where the Heat stunk up the place (Wade's rookie year), Wade was out for half the season...came back to the team...propelled them to the playoffs..and won a first round series. All as a rookie. Neither Lebron or Melo could boast the same accolades.

I'm definitely not saying that Wade is better than Lebron, but the gap is not that large. Wade was amazing prior to Shaq's arrival. In a year where the Heat stunk up the place (Wade's rookie year), Wade was out for half the season...came back to the team...propelled them to the playoffs..and won a first round series. All as a rookie. Neither Lebron or Melo could boast the same accolades.
Sing it!! Sometimes I feel like the only person who watches every playoff game I can. Dwayne Wade was a franchise player as a rookie, and that was before Shaq.

They even came up pretty close to beating Indiana considering what a darkhorse team they were. If I recall correct, they lost the series 4-2 but gave Indiana all they couild handle.

Sing it!!

"Wade in the Water...Wade in the Water...."

:)

Its not hard to propel a team when you got a supporting cast like Wade did in the 2004 playoffs. Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and a (then motivated) Rafer Alston was a good backing for him. They beat the New Orlean Hornets...not exactly an amazing feat. Trade places and I think Lebron would have taken the Heat past Indiana in a 4-2 series.

Before Shaq the media gave him a lot of coverage that was deserved, but towards the 2005 campaign it started getting a little ridiculous. I don't doubt his abilities but the gap IS that big but its hard to see that because of his overachieving accomplishments/overemblished media coverage.

Watching the two players independently on the court, it amazes me how much Lebron makes the game look so easy overall (watch his footwork as he drives to the basket); as compared to Wade who shows us how quick and explosive he is, making plays that astound us. With Lebron its expected, with Wade its a huge surprise.

Its not hard to propel a team when you got a supporting cast like Wade did in the 2004 playoffs. Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and a (then motivated) Rafer Alston was a good backing for him. They beat the New Orlean Hornets...not exactly an amazing feat. Trade places and I think Lebron would have taken the Heat past Indiana in a 4-2 series.

Before Shaq the media gave him a lot of coverage that was deserved, but towards the 2005 campaign it started getting a little ridiculous. I don't doubt his abilities but the gap IS that big but its hard to see that because of his overachieving accomplishments/overemblished media coverage.

Watching the two players independently on the court, it amazes me how much Lebron makes the game look so easy overall (watch his footwork as he drives to the basket); as compared to Wade who shows us how quick and explosive he is, making plays that astound us. With Lebron its expected, with Wade its a huge surprise.

The New Orleans Hornets consistently made the playoffs before they blew that team up. But, honestly did you see Wade in the playoffs that year? He was amazing. He became the focal point of the offense out of the blue and rose to the occasion.

By the way...Lebron had Ilgauskus, Boozer and a healthy McInnis. Not bad. And last I checked...New Orleans beat them out for a seed..so they had to be pretty descent. ???

Again, Lebron is obviously the best thing going in the NBA today. But please don't downplay Wade's accomplishments...so far he is the most successfull player out of that class..and that's even pre-Shaq.

The New Orleans Hornets consistently made the playoffs before they blew that team up. But, honestly did you see Wade in the playoffs that year? He was amazing. He became the focal point of the offense out of the blue and rose to the occasion.

By the way...Lebron had Ilgauskus, Boozer and a healthy McInnis. Not bad. And last I checked...New Orleans beat them out for a seed..so they had to be pretty descent. ???

Again, Lebron is obviously the best thing going in the NBA today. But please don't downplay Wade's accomplishments...so far he is the most successfull player out of that class..and that's even pre-Shaq.

There is a reason why the team blew up in the first place. The move to the West shook them up pretty hard and the team implded. New Orleans consistently made the playoffs but in the (then) weak east, its not hard to. They were never a championship caliber team and an upset was not all that astounding. And I did watch Wade in that playoff series and again, I'm not underestimating or understating his abilities, I just don't think he's anywhere near Lebron.

As for Iggy, Boozer and a healthy McInnis - Boozer was the 2nd leading scorer on that team from what I remember and he jumped ship. McInnis in my opinion has always been overrated and his Vince Carter-esque way of leaving the Cavs has tainted and labelled him forever a baby in my opinion. From the year Lebron joined the Cavs, management still had a problem filling in the needs of good three point shooters and good defensive players (until this year). Quite frankly, I'd choose Lamar Odom over Boozer AND McInnis in a package. Lebron makes other players better, Wade doesn't.

You fill complementary players around Lebron so he can use them as tools (Marshall, Jones for threes, Hughes as a quicker smaller mirror of himself and Iggy as their much needed big man center). Wade? To make the Heat better they added Shaq, James Posey, Jason Williams, and Antoine Walker. Every year they substantally just added a new superstar to their team, while the Cavs actually molded a machine together. Hence, my belief that the Cavs will beat the Heat due to the right chemestry by itself.

I know you're not understating Lebron's talents, and I'm not understating Wade's. I'm just saying that Wade's had a lot more given to him which makes his accomplishments seem more amazing than Lebron's right now, making everyone believe that they're more closer skilled than they actually are. That's like when people were saying Carmelo was better than Lebron first year because he took Denver to the playoffs (neglecting the rest of the team).

There is a reason why the team blew up in the first place. The move to the West shook them up pretty hard and the team implded. New Orleans consistently made the playoffs but in the (then) weak east, its not hard to.

I disagree. They imploded because they underestimated the ability of their coach that they fired for no apparent reason. Then they hired a proven loser only to then again hire a coach who has eventually shown to be a lame duck. They also built the organization around players that could not stay healthy. Davis and Mashburn.

They were never a championship caliber team and an upset was not all that astounding.

How many championship caliber teams are there ever really in the league? New Orleans still made the playoffs. But that is not the point anyway. The point is that the Miami Heat team sucked when Pat Riley gave up coaching and moved to the GM booth. Lamar Odom had Clipper-itis, which has been known to destroy the careers of many. At the middle of the season the Heat were not even in the playoff picture. Caron Butler severely underachived. ....then Wade comes back. Instantly, the team becomes completely different. All of the players begin to gell and work better together. They finish with one of the best records in the second half of the season, make the playoffs, win the first round and take Indiana to 6 games. Wade didn't make his team better???? There's no way just a solo performance would have accomplished that. He needed to work with his team. I'm sure there are a ton of teams that would love for Wade not to make the others on his team better like he did for Miami. Plus he has done it on the big stage. Hell, Shaq had to admit that Wade was the man during the regular season....to be quite frank...I think Wade actually outperformed Shaq for most of the playoffs.

We have yet to see how Lebron will perform in the playoffs. (although I'm confident he will) But if he doesn't it wouldn't be the first time we saw the "next Jordan" choke in the postseason.

What's funny is that I am relatively confident that Lebron will make the playoffs this year based on the talent they have brought to Cleveland this year. I think this year will truely be a breakout season for Mr. James. I can't wait to see how he responds....but in my humble opinion Wade has accomplished a lot in a short period of time. Hell, KG took a helluva alot longer to get where Wade has gone in just 2 years. And Wade has done it as one of the leaders of his team.

Sorry Mo but your point just proves the latter. With Wade coming back and making his team so much better, its just a form of chemestry that needed to be added for the team to successfully achieve at their full potential. Did Wade make his team better? Yes he did, in different ways though. He put the pressure on the other teammates to keep up with his pace of game and to make the shots like he made them.

And you know what? They responded.

That's the talent that the Heat had and they threw it all away in a trade for Big Shaq daddy (which was a good trade but some can also argue it being a bad one as well). The Clipper-itis certainly disappeared in Lamar Odom, Caron Butler played to his real potential because the team had good team chemestry and momentum on their side. Yes it was caused by Wade's addition, yes he sparked this, but in the end the team responded not because of just Wade's presense on the court, but because each and every individual player on that team had the composure to step up their game.

Point? Lebron had everyone staring at him in awe. Proof? His highest point game vs the struggling Toronto when they were fighting for a spot in the playoffs.

I hate using one game as an example because you can't justify a whole season around it but it really closely resembled the problems Lebron had all year round. I believe this game was the backbreaker of the season for James. His noticable frustration in his teammates and rage led him to score 56 points in one game and they still lost! His teammates didn't step up their games when he did and they lost that game. Guys like McInnis began arguing with management, Paul Silas was fired, the new owner Danny Ferry had the whole team shaken up.

Put Dwayne Wade around guys of that character and I doubt they would have responded the same way the '03-'04 Heat did. The talent simply wasn't there for Lebron to make his impact and its like what I'm learning right now in university for Sociology. Its about life chances, and Lebron hasn't received them. Wade has and its overshadowing Lebron's skill in some people's eyes. People remember winners and that's a sad fact because so many good players are forgotten because of it.

Why isn't Wade anywhere near as good as Lebron? Throw Wade in an environment like that and I smell underachieving. Its as if Lebron got the complete opposite situation as Darko, he got all the playing time in the world but the players around him just aren't good enough to help. Danny Ferry realized that he's got a potential MJ-esque leader and superstar in Lebron, hence the acquisitions this year to help the support line. That is confidence in skill and ability.

What did Pat Riley do when he saw a superstar and leader in Dwayne Wade? He rebuilt the team and traded for Shaq, another superstar and leader. Not exactly a good vote of confidence in his abilities, in my opinion.

But again, I'm not understating Wade at all. But if I were to rate Lebron and Wade in NBA Live 2006: Lebron would get a 95 overall and Wade would be a 83.

Thats the amount of difference I see in them.

Its not hard to propel a team when you got a supporting cast like Wade did in the 2004 playoffs. Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and a (then motivated) Rafer Alston was a good backing for him. They beat the New Orlean Hornets...not exactly an amazing feat.

You mean almost the same supporting cast that failed to take Kobe to the playoffs last year? (Substituting Atkins for Alston)

You mean almost the same supporting cast that failed to take Kobe to the playoffs last year? (Substituting Atkins for Alston)

Yeah but no one here's calling Kobe a leader like Wade or Lebron.

I would probably choose Lebron over Wade if I were building a franchise, but both are tremendous players, and I disagree with you that there is a large gap between them or that anyone would be stupid to believe Wade is better.

I would probably choose Lebron over Wade if I were building a franchise, but both are tremendous players, and I disagree with you that there is a large gap between them or that anyone would be stupid to believe Wade is better.


I agree. Wade is not better. Shaq makes Wade better. Lebron is the total package. Just look at his stats. The guy averages 25 a game and on top of that averages like 7 or 8 assists a game and 7 boards. Just look how much he has helped the Cavs improve in just 2 years.

I agree. Wade is not better. Shaq makes Wade better. Lebron is the total package. Just look at his stats. The guy averages 25 a game and on top of that averages like 7 or 8 assists a game and 7 boards. Just look how much he has helped the Cavs improve in just 2 years.

I don't think DarthTater was just saying that. He actually said that he doesn't think the gap is as big as rdang describes.

He put the pressure on the other teammates to keep up with his pace of game and to make the shots like he made them.

And you know what? They responded.

So since his teammates responded, Wade isn't as good?

I disagree.

Here is a better question.

If Wade played for the Cavs and Lebron played with the Heat...

Cavs make the playoffs and Heat don't, do you say that Lebron is better by a mile? I think you would.

Cavs don't make the playoffs and Heat do, do you say that Lebron is better by a mile? I think you would.

I don't think that there is anything Wade could do that would change your mind.

I think the fact that Wade went to the playoffs as a rookie with a supporting cast that a more experienced Kobe Bryant was not able to speaks volumes of his abilities.

Lebron is the better player, but again I don't think the gap is as large as you and the rest of the media would like to say it is. Keep this in mind...Wade's recognition came as a result of his performance during the regular and postseason as a rookie not based on prehype. He earned his praise argueably more than Melo and Lebron because he wasn't even on the radar. Now he is clearly the #2 talent coming out of that draft in my opinion. Only time will tell....

Rdang, how do you rank Lebron's defense today? or what would you give him for defense on NBA Live 06?

The reason why I ask is because most of Lebron's praises have come from an offensive viewpoint. We used to hear the same thing as it pertained to Tracy McGrady. Last year was the first year I actually saw McGrady buckle down and play some D in the playoffs. Lebron is definitely a multi-dimensional player (assists,rebounds and overall basketball intelligence) He has a natural feel for the game and a maturity beyond his years.

One of the things that suprised me the most about Wade was his defensive ability. I couldn't believe the shots this guy was blocking during the playoffs. He has deceptive leaping ability and pretty good postiton defense.

http://tinyurl.com/9pn3q

Keep in mind, Wade is his team's second option many nights. James has no one with star power to demand the ball on his team.

And if you use 48 minute stats to equalize the #s,

http://tinyurl.com/9rh9o

LBJ is really not outputting that much more PPG.

Man, Lebron has some sick stats! But you make a valid point, he doesn't have to defer to Shaq. I think what is really impressive though is Lebron's field goal pct. given the league pretty much knows that he needs to be stopped to stop the Cavs.

Both are truely amazing players...stat wise and on the court.

Really, only time will be the telling factor.

I tried to do a playoff stat comparison, but Wade blew away LBJ. :loco:

lol. I wonder why??????????????. hmmmmmm.:laugh:

I think Lebron is a very good defensive player. He was among the leaders in steals per game (ranked #3) last year, ranked 2nd in steals overall and 12th in steals per 48 minutes. Probably the most important stat (if you're gonna start using them) is his efficiency rating where he seems to beat Wade from 28.24 to 23.17.

This using the formula:
Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

But forget those facts...I remember watching his games. He's a freak of nature. He'd be on the sideline and read the offense, intercepting a pass near the three point. Wade is a great defensive player as well but he's not going to get any defensive player of the year considerations like Lebron is (and has received).


If Wade played for the Cavs and Lebron played with the Heat...

Cavs make the playoffs and Heat don't, do you say that Lebron is better by a mile? I think you would.

Cavs don't make the playoffs and Heat do, do you say that Lebron is better by a mile? I think you would.

I don't think that there is anything Wade could do that would change your mind.


I give people their due. Wade is a terrific player but I put him in the same lines as guys like Steve Francis, or even Tracey McGrady. Its all hypothetical, we can't prove it but we can only have our points of views. Lebron will continue to grow and be better, the sky's the limit for him. Wade? He's already surpassed expectation, how do you know he won't hit his sophmore wall?

How about your rating of Wade and Lebron? How far apart would you put them? 95 and 94? If thats so then I'm oblivious to how that could possibly be. On athleticism alone, Lebron beats Wade.


I think the fact that Wade went to the playoffs as a rookie with a supporting cast that a more experienced Kobe Bryant was not able to speaks volumes of his abilities

This is the same Kobe Bryant that everyone calls the loner. Have you ever seen his "Beyond the Glory" video? The guy is no where near a good of a leader as Lebron or Wade. He was called the next Jordan of his time, but he failed because of his lack of leadership.

That's what MJ had, he was able to get into everyone's head and get them to play their best. I remember reading an article where MJ would have to hold Rodman with both hands on his cheeks and talk to him like a child. Can you picture Kobe doing that?

I don't question Wade's abilities as a leader, but to be honest everyone seems to overshadow the Shaq factor as well in the lockerroom last year. He called the shots, while Wade outplayed him. But you can't really compare apples and oranges now.


Lebron is the better player, but again I don't think the gap is as large as you and the rest of the media would like to say it is. Keep this in mind...Wade's recognition came as a result of his performance during the regular and postseason as a rookie not based on prehype. He earned his praise argueably more than Melo and Lebron because he wasn't even on the radar. Now he is clearly the #2 talent coming out of that draft in my opinion. Only time will tell....

Wade was drafted fifth overall. That's a pretty high pick if you ask me. He was overshadowed by the big four before, sure, but if you're top 5 in my opinion: you're expected (by the media) to make an impact. The difference between you and I is, I got a feeling I hear more about Wade in the media than you probably do. His name is popping up more and more and people (here at least) are starting to talk about how great he is and how close he is to Lebron.

Wade's rookie season is what everyone is raving about the most, I think. But everyone here seems to forget: Who got rookie of the year that year?

That's right, Lebron.

He received 508 points, 78 first-place votes out of a possible 118. That's a landslide to me. If they were any where near remotely closer, then it would've been a little less one sided.

More jaw dropping stats?

Won all six Rookie of the Month awards for the Eastern Conference to join Carmello Anthony, San Antonio Spurs greats David Robinson (1989-90) and Tim Duncan (1997-98) as the only rookies in NBA history to receive Rookie of the Month honors every month of their inaugural season.

Finally, Lebron may not have to defer to Shaq, but you're treating it like it's such a bad thing to have a giant elephant down low. And besides, 83's a pretty good ranking if you ask me :wink:

One more thing: Micro. I don't like those 48 minute stats. When the players, so closely play the same amount of minutes and amount of games. Its not a question of 'what would happen if they played the same amount' whereas it's 'who's more durable and willing to play through pain.' (Both get thumbs up for that)

rdang, my brother from the Great White North, I started skimming at


Wade is a terrific player but I put him in the same lines as guys like Steve Francis, or even Tracey McGrady.


That's pretty far out in left field man.

In 6 years Steve Franchise has been to the playoffs once and never won a series.

In 8 years T-Mac has been to the playoffs 5 times and never won a series.

In 2 years, Wade has been to the playoffs both times, and won 3 series.

I'm not a video game afficionado and I suppose it is a sign of our times that we rank players based on an overall rating out of 100. But based on your scores, Rip Hamilton is likely a 75, and he's had a better career than the 3 players mentioned above.

Winning is what matters. It's the trump card over awards, selections, or stats. Wade has proved he has leadership and the intangibles to raise his game in the playoffs. If he was healthy, there is a good chance the Pistons would not have played San Antonio last year.

Lebron might be an NBA great one day, but he hasn't done anything amazing yet. Not for those of us who watched MJ come into his prime, or Bird battle Magic. Or Zeke will his team to victory on bad legs.

Wade taking the shots to play in Game 7 was the first step in what I expect will be an impressive legacy. Kid got game. Mad game.

Yes but in this discussion we're talking about how much of a better player one is over another. Wade's done and accomplished more in the postseason, there's absolutely no way of arguing there but you can't just put a team of 12's success on 1 man.

That's not fair. You want to talk about MJ's leadership and Kobe's lack thereof as key components in the competitiveness and success of their squads, and then turn around and remove that from this discussion because it favors DW.

One guy has been a winner, and one guy has not won yet. One is a catalyst for the success of his team, the other still not mature enough to make the players around him better. One makes the highlight reels, the other makes the playoffs.

You decide, but I know where my vote goes. Wade, Wade, Wade until Lebron does more than sell Sprite.

Winning is what matters. It's the trump card over awards, selections, or stats. Wade has proved he has leadership and the intangibles to raise his game in the playoffs. If he was healthy, there is a good chance the Pistons would not have played San Antonio last year.

Lebron might be an NBA great one day, but he hasn't done anything amazing yet. Not for those of us who watched MJ come into his prime, or Bird battle Magic. Or Zeke will his team to victory on bad legs.

Wade taking the shots to play in Game 7 was the first step in what I expect will be an impressive legacy. Kid got game. Mad game.

I think this is the most important point of the discussion. Stats, stats a more stats I don't think really measure the greatness of a player. Ultimately that is measured by victories. We saw Kobe have a stat padding season and the results were not flattering. Hell, Antoine Walker can put up astounding numbers too in the right situation. Wade has shown that he can win and perform on the most grueling/competitive battle field the world has to offer for basketball, the NBA Playoffs. Wade turned Tayshaun into chop suey that series. He has shown a grit and determination and success that the likes of McGrady and Francis still haven't reached. On Shaq's on accord you are looking at potential greatness with Wade.

Lebron has the most potential in the NBA to take the Magic, Bird, Jordan mantel. But, he hasn't had the opportunity yet.

Advantage Wade... for now.

Oh and my NBA Live ratings would be Lebron 90, Wade 86.

I disagree with you on the defensive front as I have never seen Lebron shut any All-Star down before. I don't think that having a ton of steals necessarily makes one a great defender. Was Stockton a great defender?

Again, I guess we will see this year when Lebron has the talent around him. I would love to see what the kid does in the playoffs where the intensity is raised up 10 notches.

But that's just the notion I'm trying to say though. Lebron's had some kind of medicore talent around him and he's made them a lot better. Boozer's fat contract is an example of it, what did he do last year? Nothing. What did he do when he was with Lebron? Became a center of attention and a 2nd option.

And I hate using stats to prove anything but I didn't bring it up first; you guys talk about winning games cause you can and I talk about winning awards cause I can. There's arguments on both sides for who's the better player.

While I say that Lebron couldn't have won games in the past because of the talent around him, you claim its because of him, and his character, that he underachieved and didn't make the playoffs. You may not directly say it but by saying Wade is better because of that; it completely throws away the first reason this discussion started in the first place. That Lebron is a better player skill-wise by a larger margin.

What would be the best scenario to prove the difference in skill? That's up to all the critics like you and I, who watch the game and say that Lebron is better. That's bar-none not disputed. How do you tell the difference is that big? When the argument for another player being better is that he wins and not by the way he plays.

And no matter what you say, steals does prove good defense. Saying it doesn't is like saying Ben's big blocks don't make a difference. Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Ben Wallace, they're all astounding defenders because when they want that ball they get it. I think on the defensive side, Lebron is as good as Bryant is, maybe even better. And it racks up on the score sheet. Lebron hasn't 'shut down' any stars? He's given a lot of them hard times and he's had very hard match-ups (most likely the best). Plus being a focal point of the offense is also a disadvantage because everyone pays attention to what you do, while Wade's had the luxury of Shaq.

At the same time, how many stars do you see Wade shutting down? These guys aren't defensive specialist like Bowen. They can score too because they're all around amazing players.

If you wanna bring up the idea of leadership? The only way we can really compare that is not through winning of games, but by character. In times when a team is down and needs to be picked up, I've seen both men step up, equally. Maybe it was unfair for me to say that he wouldn't be able to make the Cavs successful neither because we would never know, but no one can denounce the fact that he's had a (proven) good team when he's needed it, revolved around him his whole NBA career. I really can't say that about Lebron because he hasn't been given that chance (which we've agreed on and have to wait to see).

Winning games is important, yes. Stats don't mean anything because you can pat them, yes. But when you're arguing a difference of 6 points between two different points of views out of a rating of 100, you're missing the point. I think Wade's 10% less better than Lebron on skill alone. Leadership the same, if not Lebron being better because as much as Wade's proven that he has leadership qualities, he'll never have the opportunity to really prove it was him 100% with Shaq on his team now.

What happens if Shaq retires and the team does significantly worse? Do you tie that to Wade's leadership or just chemestry issues? The NBA world is tied with 'what ifs' because these stories of these superstars are what we love to hear/see. What if Jordan never had Pippen? What if Jordan never won a ring because of that reason? Would he still not be glorified as the greatest player of all times cause he never won?

That's what's too bad for guys like Karl Malone, Dan Marino, Charles Barkley (or even in the future guys like Peyton Manning)...they were all amazing players but they never won the big one so they're overshadowed and forgotten, and the truth is most of the time its not all their fault. All they have are their amazing stats to tie to their amazing careers. Their teammates miss big shots...people get injured...coaches call the wrong plays.

Wade's never won the big one neither, so why does making the playoffs make any much more of a difference than winning the big one? If you're not first place, you're just the 2nd loser. All these guys are leaders, there's no mistaking that. But saying one person is better than the other because they never made it is just hindsight for the real truth. This is entertainment, and when I watch Lebron...its definately more of a treat then watching Wade.

You never know. There is always a surprise team.

Nothing really sticks out there exept for James. They have improved adding Marshall, Henderson, Snow and Jones. Plus drafted a huge foreign Center.

Talk about misfits or guys with chips on their shoulders as in one thread about the Pistons. The Cavs will have that.

I am repeatedly drawn to respond although you have meandered in a lot of different directions.

Where to start...


Boozer's fat contract is an example of it, what did he do last year? Nothing.

Actually, Boozer lead Utah in PPG. He raised his per game scoring by almost 2 points per game on a squad that traded it's starting point and lost it's MVP SF to injury. You call that nothing?

While I say that Lebron couldn't have won games in the past because of the talent around him, you claim its because of him, and his character, that he underachieved and didn't make the playoffs. You may not directly say it but by saying Wade is better because of that; it completely throws away the first reason this discussion started in the first place. That Lebron is a better player skill-wise by a larger margin.

Actually, this is how you started

I believe Lebron is the best player in the league right now, by far, and there is no one out there that can stop him if he gets going.

People have to be stupid to even think that Wade is better than Lebron.
I don't see any mention of "skill-wise" except here...

Wade may have a better organization who put a better team around him so far but by athleticism/skill and soon-to-be growing leadership, James is the winner.
The conclusion you are promoting is that Wade is only good because he is on the Heat, not because he has any skills, athleticism or leadership to matchup with Lebron. That's horse manure. Wade has ACCOMPLISHED more than Lebron with less.

That 2004 heat squad had zero leaders and a bunch of whiny, lazy players. Wade galvanized them by throwing himself into defenses to draw fouls and show heart.

Lebron had an All-Star center last year, and he couldn't make the big show...

Lastly, I look up the per 48 production and find it is darn close, then you resort to PER? Man, it's grasping at straws....

Right now, Dwayne Wade is the better player. He's smart, he's complete, he's relentless, he has shown TREMENDOUS leadership and he wins. If anything, Wade makes Shaq better rather than the other way around.

I know you are adamant in your belief that Lebron is the next Basketball Messiah. Maybe he will be. Or maybe he will be like KG and rack up those stats and awards but never be considered a winner.

Wade is more polished but he is also 2 years older and had some college experience. Wade could not have came straight out of high school and survived being thrown to the Wolves like Lebran did.

Give it a couple more years and James will be the NBA's most dominate player. Right now he is not even of legal drinking age.

Well Micro...there's no one else here that really says Wade is a better player than Lebron, they're just stating that Wade has accomplished more and isn't as far off in his ability as I stated earlier.

But again, in almost every one of my post I keep saying:


Watching the two players independently on the court, it amazes me how much Lebron makes the game look so easy overall (watch his footwork as he drives to the basket); as compared to Wade who shows us how quick and explosive he is, making plays that astound us. With Lebron its expected, with Wade its a huge surprise.


I know you're not understating Lebron's talents, and I'm not understating Wade's. I'm just saying that Wade's had a lot more given to him which makes his accomplishments seem more amazing than Lebron's right now, making everyone believe that they're more closer skilled than they actually are.


But again, I'm not understating Wade at all. But if I were to rate Lebron and Wade in NBA Live 2006: Lebron would get a 95 overall and Wade would be a 83.


Wade is a terrific player but I put him in the same lines as guys like Steve Francis, or even Tracey McGrady.


I don't question Wade's abilities as a leader, but to be honest everyone seems to overshadow the Shaq factor as well in the lockerroom last year. He called the shots, while Wade outplayed him. But you can't really compare apples and oranges now.


*shrug* I'm moving on from that topic now. There's nothing that can really change my mind about Wade now because I've seen the kid do almost everything but win the big one. In my mind, he is and always will be a great player BUT - well, you know what I'm leaning towards. I won't say it again.

As for Boozer - being the focus of the offense and only raising your points per game up 2? Losing your defensive side with the ever slight slide in rebounds, blocks and steals? The increase in turnovers? Not a successful switch in my opinion. Blah I hate talking about stats though. Boozer was the talk of the free agency town when he was out there, now he's a dudd.

And I still think the 2003-2004 Heat roster was filled with talented guys, they just needed the right guy to set them off. You agree with this - then you state that Lebron had that one big Iggy all-star center?

Sorry I'd rather take the whole 2003-2004 Heat roster over Iggy by himself.

Ot was a good debate while it lasted it. No hard feelings.

I guess this is going to be one of those classic agree to disagree discussions. :)

Just to summarize my position:

It is hard for me to say that Lebron is head and shoulders above Wade when while both were surrounded by inconsistent talent (every player to surround those players with the exception of Illgauskas has followed up with an inferior performance the following season), Wade was the only one of the rookies who can boast that he successfully brought his team to the playoffs, won a playoff series, and took the team with the best regular season record at the time to 6 games.
Playoffs! Playoffs! Playoffs! The playoffs in my opinion are the official yardstick for grading excellence as the stakes are higher, the intensity of the teams are elevated, and weaknesses in a budding all-star's games are exposed. If I had a dollar for everytime the world was high on a player just to tear his game apart after a playoff series, I'd be a rich man.
Both players have had remarkable seasons. Wade and James are statistically very close. On defense, James steals jumps out in front of you..but Wade's blocks jump out in front of you as well. I still say that defensive categories don't always tell the story. Bruce Bowen's stats don't jump at you...and Ben's stats don't tell the complete story. Having watched Lebron I have not seen him take over defensively to control a game yet...like an MJ used to do for instance. I have seen Wade however take control of a game defensively in the playoffs... Just my observation.
Greatness, in my opinion, is when talent and hard work come together consistently to breed success when the opportunity presents itself. By that definition, Lebron is short opportunity.
I still concede that James is more athletically gifted than Wade. His potential is astronomical. But based on Wade's accomplishments thus far...Wade is already on the path to greatness....and Lebron still has ALOT to prove. (regardless of what the NBA hype machine has reported) If Lebron, does not make/have success in the playoffs that makes HIM more like a Francis, McGrady in my opinion.By the way, its important to mention that I've enjoyed this exchange with you. You do an excellent job of building your case although in the end I still disagree with your conclusions.

Hey I never take anything personally :wink:

Definately a good debate and good arguments on both sides for sure.

Funny little discussion y'all have going on here. But I have to say this.......Trade Wade for James str8 up and you get similiar results with both franchises. As rookies I think LeBron would have taken that Miami team just as far as Wade did, no matter what Mia was not beating Indy. I do think that Lebron on last years Mia team, walks home with a ring. No way to prove it's all just opinion.

Best part of all this is that we are fortunate to watch 2 young, gifted, humble players, that respect the game, and carry themselves well on and off the court develop and compete for the next few years. Add Amare and Dwight Howard to that mix and the NBA is A-OK 2Me.

Amare is a bit of a pompeous-egotistical ass from what I hear.

But so am I sometimes ;)

i have absolutely nothing to contribute to this discussion except that there's no A in definitely, and when say most <format of dominate>, you use dominant, not dominate.

har!! sorry it's friday i couldn't think of anything else except to be an ass :D

Queens English. Cut a brother some slack. ;)

sorry my sis teaches english and it wears off :D

on-topic, i think lebron is better than wade...or something.

sorry my sis teaches english and it wears off :D

on-topic, i think lebron is better than wade...or something.
You'll get along great with jdmiser and detteam. They are the English language "elite". :D