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Detroit Pistons Vs Miami Heat
December 29th, 2005 ~ 8:00pm
The Palace of Auburn Hills, Auburn Hills, MI
TV: TNT Radio: WDFN

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~~Comments on the Game?!~~

Hey! Where's the hype? Bomb these cats back to hurricane ravaged Florida.

The Pistons' finely tuned machine goes head to head with Riley's Frankenstein Experiment.
Isn't this why we got Mo and Davis?

One last kick at the can...

Best Game Pre-Cap / Recap
We're going to hand out some posting awards in the New Year as voted by the membership.

Here is the scoop.

Write your best pre-game analysis or post game wrap up.

No plagiarising, and linking images will be worth ZERO points. You need to provide TEXT to be considered.

Offer stats, humour, insight but offer YOUR TAKE. Make it original and you might end up on the receiving end of some Pistons or forum schwag.

All 'caps from the preseason through to the end of calendar year 2005 are eligible. Multiple 'caps do not count, keep it to a single post please. Your 'cap must be posted no later than 24 hours after the game has finished.

Please don't post or PM questions. Give us your best work (meeting the above conditions) and you will be eligible.

C'mon folks. Someone step up because it is likely a two man race between lee356 and LanierFan. I've got a bunch of interesting (and rewarding) competitions planned, but the participation has to be there...

Nice analysis contest.....

But I'm passing this one. But I'm up for the next contest you got planned. I'll see this one first, being that so few Pistons games reach my part of the world. THis one is.

My analysis for this game....

Pistons should make buckets, defend the goal and keep the Heat from scoring. We win BIG.

Hehe :nod:

Good call Slippy. Riley's like, I can wheel and deal too. Sure but are you a chemist?

They are a roadblock. Shaq will round in shape as the season progresses for a playoff run. Wade works well off of Shaq. With this team, the question is how well we contain those two. We don't match up that well with either. On the other hand, the Heat are a team thrown together, not playing at last year's level, Shaq's a year older and at least we know Wade's game now. Wonder if we see Davis on Shaq. How will we guard Wade?

They are a roadblock. Shaq will round in shape as the season progresses for a playoff run. Wade works well off of Shaq. With this team, the question is how well we contain those two. We don't match up that well with either. On the other hand, the Heat are a team thrown together, not playing at last year's level, Shaq's a year older and at least we know Wade's game now. Wonder if we see Davis on Shaq. How will we guard Wade?

We saw two things in the last matchup between the two teams. One, Davis could not guard Shaq. Not at all. We will see take two on this tonight.

Next, Evans was suppose to have guarded Wade well for a quarter last season. His claim to fame so to speak. But in that first game this preseason, we saw not one lick of ability on Evan's part to guard Wade. Guess we will see take two on this also.

Now as for the abilities of Ben, Dyess, and Sheed to guard Shaq. Pretty much a given that Shaq will score or end up at the line every time. Occasionally, we might deny Shaq the ball. But too occasionally. We can expect serious foul trouble to set in early.

We play Miami three times yet before the playoffs, so we got not just this game to figure things out. But still, it would be nice to see if Darko can check Shaq at least a tad better than the other 4 bigs. And its not even out of the question we could throw Maxiell on the big fella. Why not. He can foul someone just like Davis can. Heck, I bet Maxiell is stronger. Can't hurt.

On Wade, Rip will guard him quite a bit and do so so at it. Tay will guard him too and do ok again but not that great at all. Rip's a bit quicker and a little better at following Wade vs. Tay.

Once in a while, we will see Wade matchup with Arroyo or Delfino. I do not expect much from either of these two on that matchup, but the more they can do the better.

About our best bet to contain Wade well come the playoffs is to return a healthy Hunter to the team. This past series with Miami, Hunter shut down Wade pretty darn effectively.

Our best bet on containing Shaq is to sign EC for the remainder of the season. However, if Darko can give us 10 to 15 quality minutes on Shaq, that won't be needed. I'd still sign him anyway as depth is grand.

Lets say that as I suspect, Davis is completely ineffective vs. Shaq. Next game we play Miami then, activate Acker who can at least Chase Wade a bit for us.

We can try playing them like we played against the Fakers during 2004 NBA Finals. Let Shaq and Wade do all the scoring and stop the rest of the team. In addition, with our improved offense this year, we can get a 'W' here, no problem.

Another important note is that our bigs, esp. Sheed and Big Ben has to stay out of foul trouble or get Shaq into foul trouble.

penetration, penetration, and penetration

i think that the only thing that can really hurt the pistons on the defensive end in this game is letting wade and/or williams get into the paint consistently...as we've already seen this year, the pistons can be vulnerable on this issue and the price is monstrous games for opposing bigs. in this case, in addition to the danger of easy dishes and put backs, the pistons need to be aware of kick outs to posey and walker for threes.

offensively, i think we are in better shape than last year, not only because we are an improved offensive team, but especially because i think they really lost defensive power with their moves last year.

go pistons

Sounds like Flip plans on using both Darko and D.D. to slow down the Diesel (taking bets on this actually happening).
In regards to Ben being ineffective guarding Shaq, it think it's important to look at the whole picture... Ben has had some of his best scoring games against Shaq and has a history of getting Shaq in foul trouble.
Nobody can argue that Shaq doesn't hit a high % against Ben.... however we also need to take into account Shaq's turnover rate ... offensive fouls and inlet passes that Ben denys... also consider loose balls that Ben beats Shaq to.
The new rule of not going thru a man to score could work to Ben's advantage... because Ben is typically in the right position... I'll be curious to see if this is enforced.
The by committee approach (to defend Shaq) is the best strategy. This is D.D.'s chance to prove the validity of his two year contract... if he bombs (like preseason) Joe may have to coax E.C. out of retirement. I still maintain that E.C. was the #1 reason we advanced vs the Heat last year (check the results).

Another interesting match up is at backup SF... with all of the publicity the Heat received on the off season moves, did the Pistons low profile move (Evans) keep pace?

Have to admit I'm concerned about Payton posting and shooting over Arroyo.

Any guesses when the first vicious bow from Mourning goes out? I'll say before the 2nd qtr.

Will Mourning cover Sheed?... This is a chance to pull their shot blocker out of the paint.

I'm betting Darko gets a DNP-CD. Flip says this all the time.

I'm ready for this game. It's a lot easier to hate the Heat with Mourning, Payton, Walker and Shaq than it is other teams like the Spurs.


At some point Darko and DD have to prove their worth and what better time than tonight. With Lindsey Hunter's pending return to the roster someone will have to be deactivated. So who will it be? Maybe the game tonight could go a long way in deciding that. Or I guess Maxiell would be the more logical choice to be wearing street clothes.

this game means a whole lot more to miami, and even if the pistons win it won't matter that much because they should win. i'm not that much more hyped in this game than others too even though it's miami we're playing. if lindsey is back the next time we face the heat he'll make jason williams look like an idiot. i hope to see a pretty fast pace to kill shaq out there, and i hope we make williams create more TO's than he already does.

Their best opportunity was last game. The bench had a huge margin for error.

Is darko finally going to prove that you can not play for 2 years, sit on the bench for most of this season and go out and contain one of the most dominant players in the league? He may have the ingredients to be a shaq stopper but he's still missing an affinity for the game itself.

Their best opportunity was last game. The bench had a huge margin for error.

Is darko finally going to prove that you can not play for 2 years, sit on the bench for most of this season and go out and contain one of the most dominant players in the league? He may have the ingredients to be a shaq stopper but he's still missing an affinity for the game itself.

flip said he expects both dale AND Darko to have some good minutes tonight because of shaq. if darko proves something here he'll have to get more pt.

except for Dice and Arroyo. I love the ocassional semi-spectacular play and somewhat dependable jumper that Evans has. But he's nowhere near a "defensive force." Delfino though playing hard so far, still don't inspire confidence in my book; and J-Max appears too immobile to man the backup 3.

The big problem is still up front. DD ain't as physical as I hoped he would be, and he's already a lil light in the pants. Darko? Puleease! I'm wondering who on our bench besides a rookie is capable and willing to deliver a HARD foul?

Our starters are playing at a high level collectively, seldom seen in the NBA. Everybody better stay healthy.

sorry if my pessimism is running high re: playing time for the rest of the guys. I'd like to see DD and Darko in there. I just doubt I will. In fact, I won't cuz I'll have to something else tonight. But I'll read the recaps.

When I'm looking at bunch of gambling forums seems like everybody is on Heat tonight. I don't know why even thoug they get 6 points.
I'm looking forward to see the game. I think we should force Wade to shoot jumpers instead of letting him penetrate.

THe game will be tough and the Miami Heat will come out pumped, but they will lose. The main thing I want to see if the 3pt shooters for Miami will be able to hurt the Pistons. THey just don't scare me from beyound the arc like they di last season. :frusty:

Billups played great in the 1st quarter scoring 14 points and dishing out 4 assists.

Ca took over in the second and got people involved he had a beautiful outlet pass to rip from about ¾court and in general just played smart. I did not really see any of the over dribbling that people complain about.

A glaring weakness of Mo Evans on Wade was exploited by Miami every chance they could get Shaq was on the bench so you gotta know they are going to attack with Wade and Mo just could not even come close to playing d on him. On back to back possessions he sank a jumper in Mo’s face.

We got out rebounded 18 to 17 Miami’s fg% was 50% to the Pistons 48% the only thing that helped keep this one close was us hitting 50% from 3 point land and us shooting 8 for 10 for free throws.

With Shaq sitting a large part of the 2nd quarter we never saw DD or Darko out on the court after Flip saying both would get pt to help slow down the diesel.

2nd half expect more of Billups than Arroyo if it is a tight game and maybe a Delfino sighting over Mo (who am I kidding on this 1) for guarding Wade while Tay gets a rest.

CB is taking bad shots, and not guiding this team to play like a Larry Brown team, when our opponent is playing that style.

Pistons need to wake up!

CB is taking bad shots, and not guiding this team to play like a Larry Brown team, when our opponent is playing that style.

Pistons need to wake up!

lb is gone we are 24-3 get over it. This is FLIPS TEAM Chauncey scored 30 points tonight had 7 assists and went 12-12 at the line how do you want him to play?

Chauncey is the MVP...4 Pistons should go to allstar game...We will only get better..my bruddahs!~

came off the bench and provided the spark. he was the turning point in the game in my opinion. our 3's weren't exactly falling tonight but we made enough to get the win. pistons are looking really good. wade and shaq can go off if they want to but we still get the victory.

came off the bench and provided the spark. he was the turning point in the game in my opinion. our 3's weren't exactly falling tonight but we made enough to get the win. pistons are looking really good. wade and shaq can go off if they want to but we still get the victory.

Delfino was a huge spark off the bench tonight. Arroyo played really well also. He allowed Billups to get a long rest tonight - I think it was the 2nd Q.

Sam, CB did come out in the third a little out of control, but he redeemed himself down the stretch. Good win in front on the national audience twice this week. We can cap it off this weekend with a win vs the James Gang.

They definitely almost let this one get a away by allowing Wade to dominate in the 4th. He had 5 fouls for the last 7 minutes of the game so we need to be able to attack these high profile players in crunch time so that they foul out and not get those "bonus he-shoulda-fouled out-long-time-ago-points. :doh:

Shaq will probably complain later that he didn't the ball down the stretch and that's why they lost.

Kind of a mirror finish of game 7 last season against them.

Ok this is not an I told you so but Delfino got Mo's minutes in the 2nd half. He didn’t make any mistakes but 1 that I saw he let Wade get by him back door for an easy dunk but he played solid minutes and got 5 points.

Miami never knew where the next basket was coming from (lions need to learn about offense from the pistons) it was Rip or Sheed or Billups knocking down shot after shot. Prince even got in on the action late in the 4th with a couple of nice baskets his behind the back dribble and dunk on the break was sweet

Imo it was a Pistons game even though TNT analyst Steve (I use to play with M.J.) Kerr kept saying he thought that the tempo belonged to Miami. He must not understand that this team will not crack in close games, and that they stay cool under pressure. The Pistons are content to stay close and turn it up defensively at the end. I personally would like to see the intensity the Pistons play with in those situations all the time but oh well I will take the w in the end.

Imo the key down the stretch was free throws Miami shot 13-20 and the pistons shot 25-29 we need to keep taking at teams to get to the line we are such a good free throw shooting team it is gimme points. The refs are bound to start giving us calls if we keep doing as well as we have.

How can anyone be complaining about Billups? I suppose Sam wrote that before the game was over. C hit 8-17 with 7 assists. With his assit/TO ratio I would love to see more of this non-LB out of control style. Its called having an offense.

A combination of good fortune and persistence on causing Wade to commit 5 fouls in the second half. That was huge down the stretch as he could not be very aggresive eg: guarding Billups when it counted, etc.
Great entertainment, the highlight of the game for me - if not Ben's block on one end (was it on Walker's shot?) leading to Prince turning Dwayne Wade into his little girlfriend on the behind-the-back dribble and jam - must have been Rip's penetration move to assist to Dice's slam over Mourning a bit later.

Ben played solid against Shaq. 14 boards 2 steals and 2 blocks. Especially that block in the 4th that led to a Prince dunk at the other end.

Plus he only had 2 fouls! I think thats his most impressive stat of the night playing against Shaq "Man Boobs" O'Neal.

Shaq will probably complain later that he didn't the ball down the stretch and that's why they lost.

He has a legit reason to be pissed they dont go down inside enough to him late but they did try and Ben Wallace denied him both times once with a block and a 2nd time with a poke/steal for Chauncey.
Great game for the guys to win I agree we should have tried to go after Wade more. I heard Marv Albert say Riley would probably like to put wade on Billups but he has 5 fouls. The stretch where rip had him all frustrated we might have gotten 1 more whistle but oh well. Wade has gotten frustrated against us before and imo we just get in his head, if and when he does not pick up those silly pissed off fouls he hurts us.

We shot too many threes. Absolutely. One too many. One too many for Miami. Man oh man was that a killer 3 by Sheed to put the game away. Better yet, it was off a drive and dish from Billups, in a game where they keep telling us Billups is being talked about for the MVP. This game certainly is going to give him some votes. CB drove inside at the end, made free throws. Hit a shot or two.

Rip scored plenty. Quietly. But he got 25 points. Going inside a lot, and hitting from the outside. And Rip guarded Wade more than anyone else did. Thats a lot of work. Wade was hitting everything toward the end, no matter how well guarded. But he got to thinking he was superman at the very end and threw up a pretty wild shot defended very well by Tay. Got to know your limits pal.

Sheed had 4 triples. Guarded Shaq some. Pretty effectively really. Another hero was Prince. Hard to see that, but the guy was giving them problems posting up. And Tay let loose quite a few outside shots, several that went in. His defense on Wade for the most part was quite ineffective, but man did he make Wade work for some of those shots.

We got to see Delfino guard Wade some. He did better than some would expect. Miami started coming back from that 9 point lead we had while Delfino was guarding Wade, so you can't say it was that effective. But I'd say he did every bit as good a job as Evans did.

Ben Wallace certainly did not do so great a job of guarding Shaq, but he stayed out of foul trouble and continued to do his job. Altogether, when you consider the misses Shaq did have and all the times Shaq passed the ball away, you can't complain to much about how Ben did. No foul trouble, no need for Davis or Darko.

Arroyo played a ton in the first half. Did fine too. He had one marvelous pass up to Rip for a score. That pass was just shy of full court length, hitting Rip perfectly right at the basket almost. And the pass had to perfect or it would have been picked off. It takes both guts and skill to throw such a pass. Good job Arroyo. And Arroyo's defense on Payton was just fine. Arroyo generally took the legs out from the taller player. You knew Arroyo would see no time in the 2nd half. CB was well rested going into the 2nd half, and this is a nationally televised game with lots of nice long timeouts.

First time all year no Evans in the 2nd half of a game. Delfino was in instead, and we scored every single time down the court for quite a while after he entered the game. Except for a lucky 3 Walker got off glass, we scored 13 unanswered after Delfino came into the game. I like that a lot. He took turns resting Rip and Tay, and did a fine job doing so. (How much of that comeback was Wade just getting hot vs. anything bad Delfino did, I can't say. I really did not catch anything Delfino did wrong though.)

Evans had a good offensive rebound for us. He could not guard Wade. Hey, Wade is tough to guard, but if Evans can't guard Wade at all, then why is he in the game?

Dyess hit about one shot from the outside. Did not take many shots at all. He had that one dunk off a set play out of a time out. He gave our bigs plenty of rest. Ben for instance sat out at least 8 minutes of the 2nd. Dyess was in early and late in both halves, which meant Ben and Sheed could spend more energy where needed, on Shaq.

Shaq id not look all that sharp, but then again, will he get any better. He is already 10 games from that injury. By the end of the season, he will be either worn out or sporting another injury. Maybe. We don't know. Three more games to play these guys yet before the playoffs.

Miami did not go to Shaq in the 4th quarter. Wade, Wade, Wade instead. And a little Williams too. Williams scored a lot for them. Can't say much bad about his game really. Wade was hitting shot after shot, so if Shaq complains about too few touches, thats just sour grapes. The fact is, they could not stop us on the other end, despite all that scoring they did down the stretch. About the most significant fact was that Wade picked up a pair of stupid offensive fouls for hooking that kept him from guarding Billups down the stretch. Such things are going to have to keep happening if we are going to keep beating Miami. Riley is a darn good coach and I bet he cleans that up.

Oh. The joke. Payton guarding Billups? Nuff said. Billups was the hero down the stretch while Payton was a complete non-factor for his team in the game.

As I have said, this board or another, every three we took last game was good to have taken. See why? Practice makes perfect. They had to be sharp for this game. Going inside on Shaq and Mourning does not pay off that greatly.

Delfino hit one outside shot, missed two others. A 3 he took just rimmed out. He made 1 of 2 at the line, and scored a fast break layup. And he was our only sub besides Dyess in that 2nd half. I'd say coach is trusting the right guy.

Great win by the Stones. Billups came out big and took over down the stretch. I was expecting to see some Arroyo at the beginning of the 4th Q, but seems like Flip though Cb had enough rest on the 2nd Q. Delfino played better than Evans tonight and he will earn more minutes as the season progresses.

Great win by the Stones. Billups came out big and took over down the stretch. I was expecting to see some Arroyo at the beginning of the 4th Q, but seems like Flip though Cb had enough rest on the 2nd Q. Delfino played better than Evans tonight and he will earn more minutes as the season progresses.

Nice recap. Hit the highlites, summed things up. Good job!

That would have been, combined in the last two games, a 21-0 run when Delfino enters a game. We did an 8-0 run last game when Delfino entered. This was a 13-3 run.

After watching this game, I say give Acker a shot at the backup shooting guard minutes over Evans. I originally thought Acker was a solid defender, but one who could not stop dribble penetration. But after seeing how bad Evans is at it, I say go back to Acker.

Acker can hit threes. Throw assists. Defend outside shots very well. He can drive and score. Very athletic. Good rebounder. Not as strong nor as athletic as Evans, but lighter and quicker.

About the most significant fact was that Wade picked up a pair of stupid offensive fouls for hooking that kept him from guarding Billups down the stretch.


Didn't one of them look like Wade was trying to fake getting fouled, but Hamilton faked back and Wade ended up getting called for a foul?

Crime does not pay! :laugh:

Look at the box score.

We won this game at the line and the arc. The bench was barely a factor. 13 PTS, 4 REBS, 3 AST and 2 STLs.

Outshot AND outrebounded. 5 nights out of 7, that will lose you the game.

Nice to get the W, but this was far from a convincing win. 5 points and down to the wire against a team that is not as good as the Spurs.

Ben has got to get the ball for more than 3 shots (one of which was a 3 seconds on the shot clock bailout). We put zero pressure on Shaq until late in the game.

Flip's use of the bench is atrocious. Maybe even worse than LB.

Miami did well. Almost good enough to steal the game in Detroit.

YEah! Good win today.

I was a little concerned about the defense inside early as JWill went in for layup after layup but we came out with the win.

I was a little concerned that we were that close after the 1st quarter with Dwade not even heating up yet but we came out with the win.

I was a little concerned we were shooting the three too much but we came out with the win.

I was a bit concerned with how Evans would do but Delfino came in and rescued him and we came out with the win.

I really think we shot it well tonight but we should penetrate more just like what Chauncey was doing in the fourth. Sheed is hanging around the three point arc way more this year. Good thing he is making them.

Great job by Delfino today. If I'm Flip I'm getting him off the bench first. It looks like he has better game than Evans.

Dice looked good out there again.

Arroyo was great as well with that on-the-money, touchdown pass to Rip in the 2nd.

Ben was huge against Shaq and we can't have enough of that block on Shaq in the fourth.

It was close. DWade was ridiculous in the fourth. Downright scary. But thankfully we have a team that stares them down, and gets business done.

GO DETROIT!:nod:

Box Score (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005122908)
~~

watchin "inside the NBa" ans as stioopid as their crew is about games, they are funnnee as h-e-doublehockeystix"! Barf-ley says all 5 Pisti\ones should play in AllStar game.....they called this game "a real game'.....Kenny said Tay was our MVP lasyear(and he was), but barkley disagreed by implying Kenny"must be drinking"....and "i hope your kids dont grow up to be stupid"...funny ! I'm 42 today ...and I'm healthy AND hAPPY..thanx Bruddahs Micro, Ros, Zo and our crew. U guys bring spice to Piston Basketball and I appreciate u all....PEACE!!!:P :eyebrows: :nod:

That would have been, combined in the last two games, a 21-0 run when Delfino enters a game. We did an 8-0 run last game when Delfino entered. This was a 13-3 run.

After watching this game, I say give Acker a shot at the backup shooting guard minutes over Evans. I originally thought Acker was a solid defender, but one who could not stop dribble penetration. But after seeing how bad Evans is at it, I say go back to Acker.

Acker can hit threes. Throw assists. Defend outside shots very well. He can drive and score. Very athletic. Good rebounder. Not as strong nor as athletic as Evans, but lighter and quicker. Is it a "new guy in town" thang? great report on the game though...I love Delfino. He's ready for 15 MPG..my bruddah

They are still scary. We may have a slight egde on them overall but with Shaq early and Wade later--they can do damage to our defense like no other team. We stop SA better but we don't score as well on SA. Wade was getting way to easy looks and that happened a lot last year. I thought that we had a handle on Shaq in the second half. I like the fact that the bench can play good minutes and our offense can score points (but a little too much Phoenix ball tonight--we are not passing the ball enough). We have to move the ball on this team and use our athleticism.

Box Score (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005122908)
~~



you could argue that we won the game from the free throw line as well seeing as we had 9 more attempts than the heat and oh yeah we made ours

Didn't one of them look like Wade was trying to fake getting fouled, but Hamilton faked back and Wade ended up getting called for a foul?

Crime does not pay! :laugh:
All the jump and pass actions he did looked like he was trying to get fouls called, good defense or just plain indecisiveness.

you could argue that we won the game from the free throw line as well seeing as we had 9 more attempts than the heat and oh yeah we made ours
I did.

We won this game at the line and the arc.

They are still scary. We may have a slight egde on them overall but with Shaq early and Wade later--they can do damage to our defense like no other team. We stop SA better but we don't score as well on SA. Wade was getting way to easy looks and that happened a lot last year. I thought that we had a handle on Shaq in the second half. I like the fact that the bench can play good minutes and our offense can score points (but a little too much Phoenix ball tonight--we are not passing the ball enough). We have to move the ball on this team and use our athleticism.

We pick up Elden. Cause it was just ugly the way Shaq bullied his way inside on us time after time in this game. EC can stop that.

Next, Hunter is coming back. I predict absolutely no time for Evans in the Miami series. (If one.) Instead, Hunter will play extensively to contain Wade. Basically, our rotation will be as follows. Starting 6 (Includes Dyess.) Arroyo, Delfino, Hunter, EC. Maybe Darko and Evans as the spare guys on the bench.

Anyway, we have the means to take their top two threats and shut them right off.

Lee, I sure hope you are right on Hunter. You know I cringe every time he is in the game because of his offense but it sure would have been nice to see Hunter on Wade for about 4-5 minutes in the 4th. Not sure EC is coming back. You are right about Evans--he has not shown that he can guard Wade any better than anyone else. I do like his contributions on the offensive boards, though. I thought Arroyo and Delfino played well--best I have seen out of Arroyo against a major team other than than one indiana playoff game. I noticed Delfino with the first team against the Clippers so I wasn't surprised about his key minutes. And, you gotta love Dyss. Still, this Heat team worries me because we don't stop their offense like we do other teams. Our 3 ball is a major weapon for us but still think we are better when we pass on SA and Miami.

Lee, I sure hope you are right on Hunter. You know I cringe every time he is in the game because of his offense but it sure would have been nice to see Hunter on Wade for about 4-5 minutes in the 4th.
I think that Lindsey will benefit from the faster offense just as the other players have. I'm not talking a renaissance in his game, but his "O" could be more effective if he was not forced to look to make the pass and shoot as the clock expires.

You might see a Hunter more likely to take the ball to the hoop himself, or just chuck a jumper. And that could be a good thing. The most painful part of Lindsey's offense is his inability to create. When he just reacts or spots up, he's not a bad player. I'm hoping "the system" will keep him from being a liability on the court.

Then again, will Flip even play him? Whose minutes will suffer for it? He could certainly help us on defense some nights.

hunter used to be a scoring machine, i think he'll benefit from the new offense.

there were several things to be worried about in this game, but then again there's no way we let williams do that well in the playoffs.

Motown's Quick 10

On the issue of Lindsey's offensive effectiveness.....During Lindsey's tenure in LA (Shaq/Kobe championship era) he was a clutch 3 point shooter for them. He also made his early reputation at Jackson State as a scorer. It wasn't until his NBA days that he began to develop into one of the premier on ball defenders we've ever seen.
Chauncey's decison making in the first half of the game was poor despite all the made 3's, but his poise and leadership in the 4th once again proved why he is a MVP candidate. There is currently noone else in the league that I would feel more comfortable holding the ball in the last 2 mins of a game. I'd also be remissed if I did not mention that one "thread the needle bounce pass" by Chauncey early in the game. It was very John Stockton like. I have no idea how he got that pass through all of that traffic.
Since Shaq's return, Zo's effectivness in the game has dwindled. I was suprised to see that Miami did not try to play both Zo and Shaq simultaneously. That strategy worked well against us in the playoffs. BTW, Highlight of the game was that dunk by Dice on Zo. Man, that was NASTY!!!!
I am very happy with Carlos Arroyo's play as of late. He is working harder on defense and making great decisions on offense. His court vision is amongst the best in the league. That outside shot is falling with alot more regularity as well.
Delfino gave us a huge spark off the bench and in my eyes has solidified himself as the #2 scoring option off the pine. Delfino, not Darko is our secret weapon during the playoffs. Delfino's game is so, so versatile..his upside is incredible. Great passer, shooter and athleticism to boot. In a couple years we won't be able to afford to keep this guy on our roster.
Evans had a decent game. He is easlily the best hustle player coming off the bench. His skill is needed and I think along with Lindsey Hunter they could cause some havoc for opposing teams. Flip needs to give up the Evans = small forward expirement. Not happening. I see Evans as a situational player for us. Oh, and Evans couldn't slow down Wade if he brought a traffic light on the court. But then again, who can? As a whole, Evans has played pretty decent defense against shooting guards across the league. Unfortunately, he is not the defensive stopper that we thought we were getting a couple of months ago.
Last year based on our defensive effort, we would have loss this game by double digits. It seems as though we only play tight D in the fourth. We need to change that trend to get our bench some minutes. We no longer attack aggressively on defense and it shows in our rebounding and man to man defense. When was the last time you saw a Piston fight a screen in the first quarter? I can't wait for Lindsey to come back and remind our players how to defend with more intensity. This is what we are missing this year. If he can help us set a better tone defensively, 70 wins seems very attainable.
Ben definitely needs more touches in the paint. We also need more dribble penetration going towards Shaq's way. Basically we need to make Shaq defend. If Shaq is huffin' and puffin' on D, he will in turn be more lax fighting for position in the paint. Lower field goal pct. ladies and gents.
Dice and Sheed were very effective guarding Shaq tonight. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for Ben. Ben let Shaq establish himself in the post too easily all night. BUT......Big Ben did show up in the 4th quarter though (It's all the rave these days :eyebrows: ). His block against Shaq was a momentum changer. Oh, and if we would have fouled Shaq hard in the paint the first two quarters of the game, he would not have had such a good half against us. He would have been forced to make some points from the strike. Somehow, we forgot this strategy.
In the end, its a victory. We should have blown this team out by 15 based on the current state of their squad. Come playoff time, Pat Riley will have this team playing alot better. Their pieces are not that far away from gelling. If they can manage to land a lights out shooter again they will be very dangerous in the playoffs. I think that Posey (who played pretty good D against Tay) and J-Will have integrated well in the system. Antoine does not appear to fit. Perhaps they trade Antoine Walker for a premier marksman?

miami played great, and we still won. i don't know what will make this team lose.

Then again, will Flip even play him?

I know JD prides himself on not dictating who should play, etc, but if Flip doesn't play Hunter, you know JD is going to impose his will.

:boink:

:director:

Been trying to rewatch the game. Too sick for the most part to get much wathced.

Delfino made a mistake not keeping track of things and not challenging that entry pass to Wade when Wade got under the basket. Normally, one mistake in a game is not worth mentioning. Just that its so rare in Delfino's case I thought I would point it out. I see one other poster already mentioned it too. For the most part, Delfino continually went to where he was suppose to be on defense.

Arroyo also rotated well defensively. The shot Payton made, Arroyo had a hand in his face even after just helping to defend a pick and roll play. Good hustle by Arroyo there.

Arroyo was plus 1 for the game. No big deal, but spelling Billups for a good long stretch and not losing any lead is in itself a big deal.

Delfino was plus 5 for the game. He was plus 12 at one point. (And if Flip would have taken him out at that point, it would have really made him look good.) Now, after he was plus 12, he had that defensive gaff which helped take some of the polish off his stint. Its actually pleasing that he even did any good on Wade at all. I guess it should not be too surprising. After all, Delfino is quick, and has some height. Wade chose to pass off rather than try to challenge Delfino a couple of times.

Evans was minus 5 for the game. But I won't fault Evans for this. Flip had him playing small forward, a position he does not do well at. (Even though in this case Miami had went small.) Anyway, Evans was guarding Wade a few times down the court, and Evans simply did not put up any resistance to Wade shooting, or driving past him. Just no resistance at all. Bad matchup. Then again, any strong scorer this season has been a bad mathup for Evans. (With the exception of Arenas.) I see one poster suggested Evans as a situational player. I can see that. Use Evans when there is an opportunity for him to shine. In other words, when there is someone in the game which he can guard.

I have a problem with using Evans as a situational player. We brought him to this team on the rep of being a defensive player. But he can't do that. Just not that many players he is needed to bring in to guard. If Evans can guard someone, so can Delfino. Delfino makes every one around him better for all his ball handling skills. Delfino needs more playing time, and more shots. Every minute you let Evans in the game, to what, shoot the ball, is a minute Delfino is not in. I would choose Delfino for the minutes. At least, lets give Delfino a ton of minutes similar to what Evans got earlier.

Too tired to post more at the moment.

"See, I never just did things just to do them. Come on, what am I gonna do? Just all of a sudden jump up and grind my feet on somebody's couch like it's something to do? Come on. I had a little more sense than that. [short pause] Yeah, I remember grinding my feet on Eddie's couch.", - Rick James on Dave Chappelle Show

"I see one poster suggested Evans as a situational player. I can see that. Use Evans when there is an opportunity for him to shine.......I have a problem with using Evans as a situational player....." - Lee356 on PF.COM reflecting on Detroit vs Miami Game


"****** is a helluva drug." - Rick James on Dave Chappelle Show

Sorry couldn't resist. Just kiddin' with ya Lee. ;)

Don't kick the man when he's down. Wait till he's healthy and then kick him twice. :)

Hope you feel better soon, Lee.

Wow. I was just watching some highlights of the game.

On Sheed's 3 with just over a minute left, when CB penetrated the lane and then kicked it out to Sheed, CB got BLOWN UP by Shaq. I missed that when I was watching the game live.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=251229008

Wow. I was just watching some highlights of the game.

On Sheed's 3 with just over a minute left, when CB penetrated the lane and then kicked it out to Sheed, CB got BLOWN UP by Shaq. I missed that when I was watching the game live.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=251229008

jeesh, you're right!

Chauncey went flyin'!

I think Lee game me the flu, stuck at home drinking tea today. Rewatched the Pistons game, and slomo review, and came away with a different view than I had yesterday.

D'ing up Shaq:
Ben played a pure position game against Shaq. Ben would try and keep Shaq from the basket, and as soon as Shaq picked up his dribble, Ben would take a step back and put up his arms. Against this Shaq, that works, against a healthy Shaq, he's putting up 60 against that kind of D. Ben also spent too much time standing around on O, and letting guards get dribble penetration. Used to be, if someone beat our guards off the dribble, Ben would knock em down, not now. Ben seems intent on not committing fouls. A problem, but probably the easiest one to fix, so I'm not too concerned, but if our Bigs are playing like this, maybe Flip should be putting DDJ in for a few minutes, at least they could pick up some hard fouls, send a message, and make some guys afraid to come into the lane.

Sheed, CB, Rip, and Tay:
On again, off again games. CB got beat early by JDub. Sheed settled too often for three. But, when it counted, CB made great dishes, and Sheed played tough D in the second half. No complaints.

Delfino vs Evans:
Last night at chat, I said Del and Evans would make a great 2-3 combo. I was wrong. Del should have all of Evans minutes. Evans is a situational player. Good against certain matchups. Comparing him to Delfino last night is night and day. Delfino was just better on D and O. I know Evans doesnt want the Energy label, but that's what he is, he just makes too many mistakes.

On D, Evans kept losing Wade on picks. He was constantly trying to run around them, and guess were Wade would end up. He played too far off of Wade, letting Wade get the open J. And he failed to pick up the open guy. Delfino fought THROUGH screens and kept Wade in front of him. Two plays stood out and one play that stood out: Delfino covering Haslet, fought off a screen, stayed on Haslet, Rip leaves Peyton to help on Shaq (who had the ball), Shaq flips it out to a wide open Peyton, but Delfino was able to get to Peyton and put a hand in his face. 2nd, was Delfino covering Wade, fighting through a screen, getting in Wade's face, forcing Wade to pass the ball. Walker scored a 3, but that was Dice's fault for leaving him.

On O, it wasn't even close. Evans didn't have the ball passed to him once. 2 reasons, Evans doesnt put himself into position to get a pass. He stands on the perimeter, or he's trying to anticipate an offensive board. 2nd, I dont think the guards trust him to do anything other than take a wide open jumper with the ball. CB was constantly looking for Delfino, and Delfino either took a good shot, or kept the ball in play. Another instant that stood out. CB at the top of the key, CD on the baseline. CB gets the ball passed to him. Now Evans would have crashed the boards looking to get an offensive rebound. CD stepped back, because Chauncey was covered, he passed to CD for the open J.
Evans is a good spot up shooter, very aggressive on D, and O, but he just seems to be out of position all the time, and the team seems to be losing trust in his ability to handle the rock.

The only bad things about the game are fixable, Ben needs to stop worrying about picking up fouls, the guards need to get back on D faster, and Flip needs to give our guys a break, especially playind Delfino more, and one of the DDJ brothers.

16 Mile I think your analysis is right on the money.:thumb:

A few times we find Wade being met by Delfino on the perimeter. Each time, Wade sees a guy 1) a lot taller than he is. 2) a guy squared up and ready to move 3) A guy right up in his grill so he can't shoot. Each time, Wade decides to pass that ball away.

For just under 2 full minutes, we went with Tay at power forward. CB on Williams, Rip on Payton, Delfino on Wade, Tay on Walker, and Dyess on Mourning. The score pretty much stayed at us plus 6 during this stretch.

Tay scored 6 points in the last half of the 4th quarter. A last 2nd heave with his toe on the line that went in. His fancy behind the back dribble drive, and that bucket off a pass from Rip who had drove to the basket, drawing defenders. That was at the 3 minute mark. Clutch time.

Other than not being able to guard Wade, here is what Evans did do positive. He alertly completed a steal (getting credit for it) when Dyess knocked the ball away from Shaq. He quickly passed the ball up to Billups who went down the floor for a fast break bucket off that turn.

Evans got an offensive rebound, wisely decided to pass the ball out. Rip dribbled the ball in a bit and hit a jumper. No assist should have been awarded due to the dribbling, but that is what you get when you play at home. Friendly score keepers.

Arroyo got all his 4 points at the line. Once on a drive in where he was fouled in the act. Another time from smartly catching one of their players out of position and diving into him just to pick up the foul, putting them into the penalty, and getting Arroyo to the line. His outside shot missed kind of badly.

Delfino hit his first shot. Made one of two free throws. Got a dunk on a fast break. That was a very impressive sequence. Delfino saw the offensive rebound was going straight to Rip. Man did Delfino go into action mode. I mean he was moving. He was at the baseline, pretty much behind the other nine players on the floor. He called for the ball as he was sprinting and Rip hit him with a good pass. Delfino pretty much had to dunk the ball to avoid a block. And he did, with good elevation. Does not seem to be anything wrong with this guys knees at the moment. That was quite a display of health.

Delfino also missed two outside shots. A triple try barely rimmed out. A shorter jumper missed short.

A note on Shaq's positioning. For the most part, he just pushed his way to where ever he felt like going. Ben did his level headed best to make it hard for Shaq to do this. I am sure it helped tire the big fella out. But man, was Shaq ever getting good position on Ben. Fortunately, Shaq's shot was off just a bit.

I see some complaining about Ben not helping out. Well, if you give less than 100% concentration toward Shaq, he will just go straight to right under the basket and receive the ball for a dunk. Just be glad Ben managed to stay out of foul trouble, stay guarding Shaq for us for the most part, and manage to pull down 14 rebounds. That is a whole lot right there. A guy can only do so much.

Can't complain too much about the refs. But they did totally blow two calls. The out of bounds Flip got the tech for, of course that was our ball. And about the clearest case of goal tending ever this season by Shaq went uncalled. Kind of like justice though on that, cause last game Ben got away with one too.

We still need to be concerned that that this game could have gone either way when it was tied at 99 with 2 minutes to go. We need to be able to stop Wade in crunch time and it appeared that the way he as feeling it, a shot by him instead of Haslem handling the ball in that possession just under two minutes could have made this more interesting. :confused: The closeness of the game and score will put some doubts in some NBA minds if we can really get past these guys even though we have been dominating the league.

As Tim Legler said in his article, if Riles knows how to handle Shaq more effectively as the season progresses, we could see a different offensive set come May. Of course, Shaq could be worn down by then. :laugh:

Hopefully when Hunter comes back the defense will improve some, but we still need to be concerned about the rebounding. The bench play is starting to turn around, just need to get more consistent in the scoring.

I hate when I mess up my VCR Timer. I got 3/4 of the game. Accurate post guys.
KCM,--Miami not as good as Spurs--BS!
I was impressed with JWill, much smoother than the Mitten.
One thing I noticed about both teams, when they shot there was no rebounder in the paint. If it didn't go in, uncontested rebound.
Lee take your medicine.
ArmyG, you're right we need to get bigger and a scorer. A 5 point win at home is not enough. I sence trouble.

KCM,--Miami not as good as Spurs--BS!
They aren't. Not yet.

We played the Spurs on the backend of a road trip, without their All-Star shooting guard. We did not get their best game.

I thought we got the best game the Heat can play right now. They will get better, we will have to get better. You cannot lose the battle of the boards, FG% and expect to win. You also cannot expect to "gut out" home wins and be considered dominant. A couple home cooking calls in Miami, and the outcome may have been different.

Read this (http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_15519.shtml). Free your mind...

"Just another notch in the win column." My nitpicks:

1) Williams/Wade: dribble penetration. Similar to what Parker/Ginobili could do to us, their 2 guards killed us in this column. Whenever they got the ball into the lane, it was a layup, an oop for Shaq, or something bad. And our infamous "front line" let them. Solution: We know that we can get into Wade's head easily. Don't be afraid to knock them on their asses!

2) Solution for Wade. In general, Wade dominated that game. He got 14-for-20. When he's hot, there's not much you can do but shut down everyone else. Put a different guy on him (Lindsey comes to mind), give him different looks, and knock him down. He isn't a proven clutch player thus far, so him having the ball at the end of games could be a good thing for the Pistons.

3) Solution for Shaq. The most dominating player in the game is NOT what he was before. He's definitely out of shape. I found that, when we pushed the ball, we made him run. Even if there's no plays in transition, he'll have to get his ass down to play defense. Make him pay. Defensively, we have 4 guys who can cover him adequately (Ben/Sheed/Dyess/Davis) so use those fouls especially when he's shooting bricks from the foul line. We also need to front him in the post and deny him position down there, because once he's deep, he's deep.
Also, I like how our players fronted him with a little bit of double-team action. When Rip or someone would come up and give Shaq a little more existence of defense, he gave up the ball (via instincts of triangle offense).

4) Chauncey and bad shots. Billups needs to take his time out there. He could have it in clutch time, set everyone else up, abuse his smaller defender, and take the 3, but he did have a bad stretch (start of the 3rd quarter). Especially out of halftime, he'll need to continue distributing the ball and not chucking up 3s and early shots like he did in this game. We don't need him all the time scoring the points to get the crew going after the half.

5) Haslem and his jumper. We know he can hit that jumper from just outside the paint, so Sheed or Dyess should front him. The bad side is that we lose a rebounder underneath. But honestly, Haslem's jumper was the only thing going down in the clutch for the Heat.

6) Bench production. I am proud with Delfino and Arroyo's performances in this game. Like Evans in the Spurs game, Delfino, I felt, gave the spark in the 3rd quarter where it mattered the most. Delfino got Evans' 2nd half minutes, and it was a good move. Evans played in the 1st half and pulled down some good rebounds then, but Delfino was certainly the better player today. When you need ball movement (via his slashing) and just maybe a more-rounded offensive player, he definitely did his job. If there's one thing, we know Delfino is the better finisher than Evans.
Arroyo gave Billups good rest in the 1st half, and he did quite well minus the bad jumper he took. His cross-court pass to Hamilton was dangerous and lucky, but it worked well.

Here is the Pastor’s Report Card for the Pistons-Heat game

Ben Wallace (A-)

Not only did “Big” Ben have a great rebounding game (14) and defensive game (2 blocks, 2 steals) but he also made the best of his limited offensive touches, including a dynamic pass off the rebound which resulted in a dunk.

Rasheed Wallace (A-)

Rasheed looked like a man possessed and on a mission to get his belt back. RW was huge from 3 point land (4-6) but missed a solid A because of only reeling in 3 rebounds.

Rip Hamilton (A)

Had a good shooting night (9-15) but his 9 Assist were huge. I would have gave him an A+ but his defense was lacking at times. However, he did a great job of getting Wade in foul trouble.

Chauncey Billups (B)

Don’t be fooled by the stats. The 30 points and 9 assist was nice but he played horrible defense and forced too many shots. However, only 1 turnover kept him from a B-.Next game he needs to beat JW up in the post to slow him down on offense.

Tayshaun Prince (B-)

Couldn’t seem to hold on to the ball, but he did come up big down the stretch. We will need bigger performance from TP during the playoffs. No one on the Heats roster should be able to guard him.

Bench (A+)

AM and ME were very quiet but CA and CD made up for it. I believe if CA was a starting PG he would be considered one of the top three passers in the league. He had three passes in limited minutes that made me go WOW! In regards to CD he might have one the game for us. His energy off the bench was crucial. The game was slipping away and he came in with a shot, dunk and ½ of three point shot.

They aren't. Not yet.

We played the Spurs on the backend of a road trip, without their All-Star shooting guard. We did not get their best game.

I thought we got the best game the Heat can play right now. They will get better, we will have to get better. You cannot lose the battle of the boards, FG% and expect to win. You also cannot expect to "gut out" home wins and be considered dominant. A couple home cooking calls in Miami, and the outcome may have been different.

Read this (http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_15519.shtml). Free your mind...

Micro the thing that concerns me is the quote from the article that states that the Pistons are 29th in PAINT scoring. This is not good when you consider heavy play by starters on any given night could lead to tired legs. We need to set up or run more plays in the paint just to get our guys confortable with post moves, etc, when the perimeter shots are not falling. :confused:

'Dre,

Flip's answer to that during a post game presser was that the FTs are like paint scoring.

A flippant answer if I ever heard one. :laugh:

The radio post game show carried a long interview of one of the Piston assistant coaches (did not catch a name). He stressed that their pre-game strategy was to make Wade a jump shooter. He said If Wade hits the jumper, just tip your hat, blame the coaching staff, and move on. He mentioned that by backing off of Wade we cut his usual 11 trips to the foul line to 5. Wade got hot from outside making the most of what he was being given. There should be no defensive disrespect to Tay, Rip, Evans or Delfino.

The coach also talked about how fortunate the Stones are to have Ben Wallace. He said no other team in the league has the luxury of garding Shaq 1 on 1, and that it offers a tremendous benifit in helping shut everyone else off. He credited Ben for "taking his lumps and making plays"

Did anyone notice how J Will was getting into the lane. When defending the P&R our bigs did not show, allowing Williams to curl toward the basket unabated. The guard will be late getting to the other side of the pick 9 times out of 10. Once in the lane our bigs are helpless. When Ben/Sheed slide to the penetrating ballhandler Shaq makes himself a highly available target. It all starts with making Williams a shooter off of the P&R.

When we play the good teams and get into trouble, we tend to still go one on one and nowadays, take a quick three. The quick look is a good weapon in our arsenal but only when mixed in with running the offense much deeper into the clock. Our offense is at its best when we pass--that is what we need to do with the good teams. Whether the points come in the paint or not is not really the issue. We are playing a version of Phoenix ball. If we pass for the open look, we will hit a high percentage. The scoring will be there. We really don't have the players to score down low consistently. Sheed is showing that he is far better outside. When Sheed is down low, he gets too frantic and often misses. Rip is better at the mid-range. Chaucey can get down low but even he threw up some wild balls against SA on drives. Against Miami, we did not use Ben enough to make Shaq honest--that would be going inside. Dyss has a low post game. For every successful post, Tay often loses the ball or misses. He is better outside, driving or the mid-range. But the key to our offense against the good teams is swinging the ball around. That makes Miami, a rather slow team, vulnerable. It makes SA, a team that collapes and gambles vulnerable.

KCM, reading this article you would think the Spurs are a .500 club. I liked the way he jaxtapositioned smarts/stress and heart/aggressiveness. But then he goes RonRon and loses all credibility.
How do you maintain a .889 win % with 29th best paint scoring. Smarts, less work bigger rewards, less injuries.

When you add up our inside scoring, the free throws made when getting fouled going inside, and the scoring from going inside and kicking the ball out to an open man, the Pistons got more inside scoring than Miami in this game. Hard to believe. All game long I am tallying inside scoring for Miami. But only 4 points off kickouts. Thats right, Eddie and Damon Jones work elsewhere.

Here is the data:

Scoring inside, Mia. 52 points on 45 shots Det. 38 points on 28 shots

Misc. F/T's Mia. 2 points Det 9 points

Inside F/T's Mia. 11 points Det 16 points

Kickouts Mia. 4 points on 5 shots Det 17 point on 12 shots

Non-inside Mia. 32 points on 23 shots Det 26 points on 33 shots

Total inside Mia. 67 points on 59 shots Det 71 points on 49 shots

Surpringly, Miami was less efficient with their inside scoring than we were. Miami had 10 more shots either inside the square or from kickouts after the ball went inside the square. But Miami scored less points from their inside play, after you count us getting a more points at the line from busting it inside and forcing the foul.

Conversely, it turns out that Miami was more effiecient from their outside shooting. What gives.

Pretty simple. The Pistons were focusing on their perimeter game, forcing Miami to come out and guard the perimeter. So when we went inside, it was easy buckets for us.

And, on the flip side of things, Miami, due to Shaq especially, forced us to really concentrate on our interior defense, leaving plenty of easy shots for Miami on the outside.

Now, a lot of this was simply Miami shooting better from the outside than we did. I don't think our outside shots were that heavily contested.

Bottom line though, no way you can complain about lack of inside scoring in this game when we outscored Miami from inside play. Despite all the fireworks from Wade, Shaq, and Williams, we used going inside to better advantage than they did.

Non inside scoring @ 33 shots; inside shots @ 49. Maybe we were focusing on inside shots. But we didn't force them, we made the smart tactical play.
Still Heat took 10 more inside shots. 59 to 49

Non inside scoring @ 33 shots; inside shots @ 49. Maybe we were focusing on inside shots. But we didn't force them, we made the smart tactical play.
Still Heat took 10 more inside shots. 59 to 49

To an extent, we were looking to go inside. However, trust me, we simply sat up a play to get an open outside shot many times in that game. I'd say the best part of what we did, the other team never knew if we were going inside or out the next play. They could have the perfect defense set up against us to prevent us from going inside, and bam, we hit them with a simple pick and roll with Sheed nailing a three. Frustrating as all get out to try to guard the Pistons. At least if we are hitting any shots at all from the outside. These last two games, for the most part the shot has not been falling. Just enough in the Miami game at least.