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Pistons At Pacers

February 4th, 2006 ~ 8:00pm
Conseco Fieldhouse, Indianapolis, IN
TV: WDIV / NBATV
Radio:WDFN

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Your Comments?
GUESS THE SCORE!
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I thought Jamaal Tinsley was there starting PG?

I thought Jamaal Tinsley was there starting PG?
maybe its a prediction that by february he will be injured... :crutch:

maybe its a prediction that by february he will be injured... :crutch:Pretty safe bet considering Tin is in his name. Out right now with a torn biceps but I'm thinking that by this game he should be back and Carlisle playing him 40 minutes per until he breaks down again.

Wrong again. He returns last night and hurts his elbow.
The real question for this game is if Artest will be in another team's uni by this game, and Bonzi is suited up with the Pacers?

Missed on that one. The real thing here is that the NBA had to have some huge marketing thing in mind to boost this game the night before the Super Bowl. Instead, it turns out to be just another regular season matchup.
Another thing I notice is that while the Pacers starting 5 probably won't be known until gametime (given JO and Foster's injuries and Artest's moonbeam demand), the Pistons starting 5 is a lock.
Pacers could be Harrison at the 5 with Granger and Peja at the 3 and 4 and Jackson and AJ at the guards. Totally different than what's pictured here.

Is Jackson playing? Is Foster playing?

Peja has not done well in the 2 games played against us while he was with the Kings. No difference now that he is a Pacer. Pacer's bigs always seem to play a decent game against us. After the heavy minutes the Wallaces played against the Sixers 24 hrs ago, will the have enough legs left??? That is the question. As long as our bigs keep their bigs off the paint and the defensive boards, we should be 40-6. We really got to box out on the defensive boards. Hopefully, we can see Dale Davis in this one.

My feeling is that Fred Jones gets the go at the 2 and AJ moves over to the point. AJ matches up well with Chauncey in the past but while AJ has been more miss than hit this year, CB has been lights out.
4th game in 5 nights for the Pistons? Who in gawd's name would ever schedule any games like that?
Ah, never mind. Would be real impressive if the Pistons pull this game out given that schedule. I'm interested in how Sarunas and Peja look against the best. Harrison might show his game is growing too.

And if that dated pic of RC in the right corner doesn't get folks around here worked, I don't think anything will!
Pacers 89-82.

the game is just not the same without ron and jermaine. pistons 93-79.

the game is just not the same without ron and jermaine. pistons 93-79.

And I would love to see us treat them just as the situation indicates. Blow them out by the end of three. Don't letum hang around.

And I would love to see us treat them just as the situation indicates. Blow them out by the end of three. Don't letum hang around.

i'll go with you there.

CHAT IS OPEN FOLKS.

http://www.pistonsforum.com/news/853-pistonsforum-com-game-chat-debut.html

i just went into chat and it was empty!! SA and Dallas catchin up!!

all i gotta say about this one is ... woops!! hehe

first half:

Two new twists tonight. One, Arroyo came in after 3 minutes when Billups picked up his 2nd foul. Early in his stint, him and the other 4 guys out there looked like strangers, but they settled down, at least on the offensive end. We were shooting 60% late in the 1st quarter. On defense, Anthony Johnson used a pick to hit an outside shot, and backed Arroyo down once for a bucket. Johnson continued to go after Arroyo, but got no more. Arroyo got one bucket himself and a hesitation move ending in an uncontested layup for him. He missed a few shots too. But he handed back Billups a three point lead to start the 2nd quarter.

On the defensive side of things, our starters, both before Arroyo came in and after, could not clear the defensive glass. Its like, all the sudden they don't do windows. Indiana volunteered to do the job, swiping 14 offensive boards in the opening quarter. So in comes Dale Davis, and that non-sense stopped. Good job Dale. Dale also hit both his free throws, and got a bucket off an assist from Delfino on a fast break. Dale was in for a pretty good stretch there.

For much of the 2nd quarter, we had Billups in with four bench players, Evans, Delfino, Dyess, and Davis. They held their own. Don't read the rest of this paragraph though if you are a fan of Mo Evans. Anyone we put Mo on scored, and they scored all too easily. And to make up for that? Nothing from him on offense. Hey, Indiana is a good team, what did you expect.

Delfino played some good D. Whereas Jackson for instance was a bit too physical for Rip to handle, Jackson trying to back Delfino down resulted in a very weak shot that barely made it to the rim. Jackson used about 12 straight head fakes, and finally a drive in to pick up a foul on Delfino later, but thats it. Delfino hit one shot, and led two fast breaks that led to scores. One of the fast breaks was from his knockaway and steal. Delfino also missed a couple of shots.

Tay has knocked down some shots. So has Rip. Got to say, Rip has gone from can't drive without turning it over, to be effective at driving in, to becoming a master at driving in, all right in front of our eyes.

Sheed hit a triple early, but has been doing damage from closer in. CB, I think he has made some free throws. Ben? Where is Ben? Can't say much positive about Ben so far. Clear those boards in the 2nd half. GO PISTONS!!!!! Oh, and Dyess has hit some shots.

First of all, don't feel too sorry for Indiana. Sure they got some guys out. But how much respect around here do we all give Tinsley exactly? Not much. Artest has been replaced by Peja, a fine player. I know we hear Indiana is looking to trade the guy yet, but you know, he looks pretty good for Indiana. Anyone notice he had 10 assists, in just his 2nd game for them, their last game? And finally, sure O'Neal is out, but look at Danny Granger. The guy can play.

Billups was not exactly Mr. Big Shot tonight. The announcers, for him, and all the Pistons, kept bemoaning tired legs. But like one poster mentioned, Delfino made a couple of shots. Why not let him shoot more? And Rip, man, sure he missed the long guns, but he sure was hitting everything else. He was not that tired. Sheed was doing enough damage in the post, and Tay actually made some shots. Man, we were outplayed. Outhustled. By a team that had been resting several days for us, at home, picking apart everything we ever did this season. Quite an advantage. Lets just say its more Indiana being raring to go more than us being all that tired.

All in all, our bench played quite a few minutes for a tight game anyway. Evans made no appearance in the 2nd half. Arroyo and Delfino came in at the same time. We got back into the game a bit with those two in. But I am still not satisfied. They should have left Prince out there, and had Delfino be the primary scoring option. Then bring Rip in for the rest of the game. Just my opinion. Basically, I am chomping at the bit waiting to see three good ball handlers, Arroyo, Delfino, and Tay, all in at once for us.

Another guy who did not play in the 2nd half sure should have. Dale Davis brought great energy in the first half, so why not play him in the 2nd. Show people what is needed to get minutes around here.

Offensive rebounds in the 20's for Indiana. Crazy. Next game we play them,lets tell our starters they are coming right out of the game if they start by going on strike as far as the glass work. Davis is more than willing to take their minutes.

Man, I got to mention once more the contrast between Rip and Delfino as far as their size. Jackson was guarded by both. Rip looks very slight of build next to Jackson. But Jackson looks very slight of build next to Delfino. Delfino is one solid player. And one solid defender. Next game vs. Indiana, he certainly needs to be featured a lot more.

Ok, I am going to check out the box score now. I bet I see quite a few assists for Arroyo, and no turns. He did well tonight. He probably should have been played more. But hindsight is 20/20 they say. Coach was probably sure that Billups was going to dig down deep and light it up again. Maybe he could have if coach had given him a bit more rest yet in that 2nd quarter, on this, the 5th game in 7 nights. (Especially after playing the guy over 40 minutes the previous night.) About all for now. GO PISTONS!!!!!

I forgot to mention Ben's 2nd half play. Pretty solid for the most part. Despite all the games, and all the minutes, he seemed to wearing Indiana out. Indiana sure puts a lot of effort into keeping Ben off the boards. Ben may not have a ton of rebounds on the stat sheet, but he ended up doing his share in this game for sure.

5 games in 7 days will do this I guess.Give them credit they jumped on us and beat us with rebounding and effort.Hopefully this stops the 72 wins talk even though you would like to see history it's sickening hearing it everyday from the media.

One, Dale Davis got some minutes. Not enough in my opinion when he was the best thing we had to keep them off the offensive glass. But he played. That is good.

Two, we brought in Arroyo and Delfino together in the 2nd half. Thats, trusting your bench, and choosing the right players to play off your bench. Yes, I would still rather those two play with Prince in at small forward, and Delfino at shooting guard. Still something to look forward to.

One of the biggest things Flip can do, right now, is figure out he is barking up the wrong tree as far as depending on Evans to be in his rotation. Here was a night where we really needed some bench minutes, but Flip could simply not find anyone on the Indiana team that Evans could gaurd. Absolutely not a guy you want in your regular rotation. He only played 5 minutes tonight. That is getting close at least to the minutes he should be seeing. (Yep, zero, in my opinion. Lets let Maxiell get a shot at some minutes. Not playing Evans is the first step in playing someone else.)

Delfino clearly needs more burn. 11 minutes, 4 points, 3 boards, 3 assists, 1 block, 1 steal. How does Tayshaun play over 3 times the minutes and only get 2 boards? It boggles my mind. I like Delfino's overall impact on the game. He just helps the team in so many ways, even when he's not scoring.

I don't care what happens at this point. I'm thinking that maybe Flip should run a 3-swing rotation with Delfino playing about 12 minutes in each half. Bring him in for Prince at the 6 minute mark in the 1st. Then bring Prince in for Rip at the Quarter. Then Bring Rip in for Delfino at the 6 minute mark in the 2nd. Rinse and Repeat for the 2nd half.

Scatter in Evans a few minutes here and there for a couple hustle points. I have been a Evans fan all year, and I've stuck with him. But he is pretty much a defensive liability. He just seems out of position a lot. His offense is fine, but we are really hurting defensively with Arroyo/Evans/Dice out there (where's Dice's D been BTW?)

I'd like to see more Dale Davis as well. He's tough, and he can rebound the ball. Tonight was the perfect night to play him extended minutes.

We have been winning ugly and now we lost ugly. Carlyle used his bigs to wear us down on the back to back. We have trouble with a big front line on the back to back. Same problem with Utah. Flip still can't seem to get the rotations right on back to backs. We have seen this before. He should have let the 2nd team play in the second quarter as they were doing fine.

Delfino looked good. Arroyo for Billips early and we lost momemtum but Arroyo is not why we lost. Teams are starting to understand our offensive sets. I pointed this out a week ago. They are completely laying off of Ben. We need to have Ben slant to the hoop. They are coming out on Chauncey and Sheed. We need to make adjustments. Davis was the bright story. He should have played way more. I said he would give us quality time. Watch out for him.

Amazing to me that in less minutes Pollard puts up better stats than Ben. And David Harrison's play is indicative of some fine things to come.
Hardly a measuring stick given the schedule inequities, but I'm thinking Flip has some coaching to do. Might be interesting.

Everybody wants Flip to crack the whip, but this is what happens sometimes. Period. A home team plays inspired without its leaders, while another team playing out the tail end of a busy stretch before the All-Star Game struggles after a long hot streak.

So now there's a coaching crisis? Lack of coaching time, maybe, since practices are hard to come by with this kind of schedule.

And overconfidence, sure, of the same kind shown by the pitchfork-wielding fans who a few hours ago were assuming a blowout.

But this is a rivalry game against a team that runs the same micro-managed sets over and over again, so you have to actually beat them instead of waiting for them to screw up at the end. (Remember? We used to be these guys.) All the earmarks of an upset were there, so I for one ain't gonna mind too much. Truth is, losses like this can do the team more good than wins such as the one against Philadelphia.

Everybody, including the Pistons, should probably just chill and watch the Super Bowl.

Ok... next

how can this happen? We lose against a team without 3 key players, including their biggest offensive threat? They get 24 offensive rebounds without their best rebounder? Who are Danny Granger, Scott Pollard or Jeff Foster to clean up the glass like that?
A worried fan...
(but still happy that these Pistons are so good that a loss against the Pacers feels like one against an expansion team)

We have been winning ugly and now we lost ugly. Carlyle used his bigs to wear us down on the back to back. We have trouble with a big front line on the back to back. Same problem with Utah. Flip still can't seem to get the rotations right on back to backs. We have seen this before. He should have let the 2nd team play in the second quarter as they were doing fine.


Delfino looked good. Arroyo for Billips early and we lost momemtum but Arroyo is not why we lost. Teams are starting to understand our offensive sets. I pointed this out a week ago. They are completely laying off of Ben. We need to have Ben slant to the hoop. They are coming out on Chauncey and Sheed. We need to make adjustments. Davis was the bright story. He should have played way more. I said he would give us quality time. Watch out for him.


You are not mentinoning Arroyo in too positive of a light here. Why? Depite our bigs being absolutely slaughtered on the glass, Arroyo handed Billups a three point lead to begin the 2nd quarter. If you want to talk about a momentum killer, why not diss Billups. We went 1 for 8 to start the 2nd quarter, after shooting nearly 60% in the first quarter, which was mostly Arroyo at point.

Arroyo and Delfino came in together early in the 4th quarter, and the lead got cut to 4 a few moments later. What the heck is wrong with that? Other than bringing Billups back to work his late game heroics, which did not materialize in this one, there was no reason at all to bring Billups back into the game.

Granger played only 20 minutes, Harrison even less. Hmmm...What was that about playing your bench? And it looks like Carlisle still has a problem playing rookies, even if he is producing.

And I just thought it was the feeling of dissappoinment the guys had to feel for being snubbed, yet once again.

I'm not suprise about this lose, I pened this in the begining of the month ae a potential lose. In the NBA there are games that aare scheduled loses and when you look at the senario of the whole thing 4 game in the 5th night on the road of a back to back it spells a dangerous game.

No matter how good this team is sometimes those things are hard to over come, Now we can break down every little thing about why they lost in game but the major reason is Indiana was waiting on this team two days to prepare for a team playing back to back is a way to beat your opponent and they wanted this game more than the Pistons.

Well we move on the Pistons should go 11-2 this month and we have to let Indiana spew all the WE can beat Detroit banter.

We lost the game on the boards. We lost the game on tiredness on the starters. Did i mentioned this 2 points in my pre game post?

Boards - Tay has 2 boards the entire game with the heavy minutes he had. No doubt that he did a decent job on Peja making him go 3-14 for the game but Tay did not box out on Peja. Peja managed to have 4 offensive boards.

Fatigue - All 5 starters played more than 35 min again on back to backs and 4 games in 5 nights. Even in this 4 games stretch, starters been averaging 36 min a game. That's ridiculous. Flip should have rested the starters more against the Sixers.

If Flip would have played the bench more minutes in the Sixers game, I'm very sure we would not have lost this game. Even though the game score were close in the Sixers game, I believe the bench would not have lost the game if Flip mix the subs minutes with the starters more. By mixing the subs with starters, he is developing the bench as well as giving the starters some rest. Where is the disadvantage in doing that, Flip? I understand players in a team need to play more together to build team chemistry, but our starters has played almost 3 seasons together for heaven's sake.

Even when the starters can play those heavy minutes as their age permits them to do so, coaches must not be afraid to use the bench when the starters are not playing well. Proven coaches like Phil Jackson, Chuck Daly, Lenny Wilkens, Greg Popovich and even Larry Brown will not hesitate to use the bench when the starters are not getting the job done in certain games.

There are 9 more back to back games in our schedule. Use the bench wisely. Arroyo, Delfino and Mo's game is improving and with more minutes, they can still improve. Dice, Hunter, Davis has proven track records. We can still develope Darko and JMax if necessary.

Or, maybe, Flip knows what Larry Brown knew? And there's "still time to develop darko?":frusty: Huh?
Look, the bench SUCKS. When you see the opposition pouring it on with their bench it's obvious. Either play them or dump them.
When your starting PG is yawning during intros, something is up.

TWOTIMESRALPHI
We lose against a team without 3 key players, including their biggest offensive threat?

Because we played a team with a legitimate BENCH, that's how. Indy just showed us the value of a "banger" or two. Something we ain't got. No way we could pull off what they did without 3 key players. I shutter to think how we'd look with Ben, Sheed and Chauncy on the shelf at the same time. :frusty:

I'll predict the Pistons blow out the Pacers in the rematch... the bench plays well and anxiety will be forgotten.... 40 W's before the all-star break will be a gr8 accomplishment... must be doin' somethin right.

Sorry ski... ther's no doomsday here.

Fatigue - All 5 starters played more than 35 min again on back to backs and 4 games in 5 nights. Even in this 4 games stretch, starters been averaging 36 min a game. That's ridiculous. Flip should have rested the starters more against the Sixers.

If Flip would have played the bench more minutes in the Sixers game, I'm very sure we would not have lost this game. Even though the game score were close in the Sixers game, I believe the bench would not have lost the game if Flip mix the subs minutes with the starters more. By mixing the subs with starters, he is developing the bench as well as giving the starters some rest. Where is the disadvantage in doing that, Flip? I understand players in a team need to play more together to build team chemistry, but our starters has played almost 3 seasons together for heaven's sake.

I think this is right on the mark. Starters with 40+ minutes against Philly in a game the bench should have been able to win. It's a bad circle and it came back to bite last night.

Everybody wants to be the mastermind who sees the easy answer. Truth: The team is bored, okay? These guys have been squeezing out wins at an inhuman pace for 40 games, the break is coming, they've got a double-digit lead over a bunch of tomato cans in their conference AND they know that the playoffs are all that really matters. So they're getting sloppy, looking for shortcuts and the quickest way back to the hotel or house. That's just human nature.

Useful tip: When the Pistons make you mad or you think our bench is crap or Flip is a bonehead, go visit some other team forums. See what real problems look like. Nice reality check.

Everybody wants to be the mastermind who sees the easy answer. Truth: The team is bored, okay? These guys have been squeezing out wins at an inhuman pace for 40 games, the break is coming, they've got a double-digit lead over a bunch of tomato cans in their conference AND they know that the playoffs are all that really matters. So they're getting sloppy, looking for shortcuts and the quickest way back to the hotel or house. That's just human nature.

Useful tip: When the Pistons make you mad or you think our bench is crap or Flip is a bonehead, go visit some other team forums. See what real problems look like. Nice reality check.

And I'd add: this little "slide" is a repetition of what they've already done twice before this season: in November: L at Dallas, W, then L against Washington (before winning 15 of the next 16) and then end of Dec: L at Cleveland, 2 Ws, then L against Jazz (before winning the next 11). These slips (whether tiredness, or boredom, or some combination of those plus other factors) just don't seem like a big deal to me. It'd be great if the team could play each game as though it were game 7 of the finals, but I just think that's unrealistic over the long haul.

I'm not saying that everything is perfect, and Dallas is charging hard right now in the West, SA is keeping pace so that we're only up a few games in the battle for Finals homecourt, I really agree that there's no doomsday and no cause for panic. If they lose to the Hawks in Atlanta...well, then maybe someone needs to light a fire under their...

flip needs to trust the bench more.

flip needs to trust the bench more.
Joe needs to make a trade and get Hunter back into the lineup.

Joe needs to make a trade and get Hunter back into the lineup.

who do you suppose we trade?

Joe needs to make a trade and get Hunter back into the lineup.

yeah, Lindsey must be grindin' his teeth everytime he sees an offensive player blow by one of our defenders.

Hunter returning would help. I'm not certain AJ and Sarunas could handle the pressure that Lindsey brings, and I certainly don't see Tinsley in the Pacers lineup for any long stretch. But the sky isn't falling, it just seems the bench has fallen and can't get up.:laugh:

who do you suppose we trade?

Darko and Arroyo. We just absolutely need a good backup PG.

I'm not suprise about this lose, I pened this in the begining of the month ae a potential lose. In the NBA there are games that aare scheduled loses and when you look at the senario of the whole thing 4 game in the 5th night on the road of a back to back it spells a dangerous game.

I hope you're writing this with your blackberry!

Lee, I did point out that the second team should have stayed in in the second quarter. I guess that is another way of saying the starters did not perform well. This has happened before. I think Flip thinks he needs to put them back on the mark instead of looking at the flow of the game. I don't blame Arroyo for the lose at all and feel that Davis could have helped us win this game since our bigs were getting worked over on the back to back. But we got off on the wrong foot with Billips going out early. The team looked off kilter for awhile when Arroyo entered in the first quarter. This loss only bothers me to the extent that we are giving back our edge over the Spurs and that the back to back story of tired starters is not new.

We took a lot less threes this game compared to the last ones. I think that the 5 games in a week definately contributed to the loss but anyone else notice how poorly we do once we stop tossing up 3's all the time?

When Larry was around we never used to have to really do that too much and we won consistenly with that game plan during the championship. If we win again this year - it won't be because of whatever Larry taught us about offense. Don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

looks like lindsey might come back soon after all micro. an article said chauncey has been hurt over the past week and lindsey might come back sooner than timed to relieve some of billups's minutes. he messed up his hand and hammy in games this week.

Because we played a team with a legitimate BENCH, that's how. Indy just showed us the value of a "banger" or two. Something we ain't got. No way we could pull off what they did without 3 key players. I shutter to think how we'd look with Ben, Sheed and Chauncy on the shelf at the same time. :frusty:
don't make me think about that- a horrible vision.
At least I don't think CA is the problem- but he's a player who gets better with the minutes. If he had about 30mpg on another team, he be a very decent PG. Unfortunately, it seems he's having problem getting into the game cold for short distances.