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Detroit Pistons vs Indiana Pacers
April 9th, 2006 ~ 1:00pm
The Palace of Auburn Hills, Auburn Hills, MI
TV: ABC
Radio:WDFN

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Your Comments??

GUESS THE SCORE!!

C'mon. Artest, Sarunas, AJ, Foster and JO as the starters? Not.

C'mon. Artest, Sarunas, AJ, Foster and JO as the starters? Not.

Yeah. Too bad for the Pacers.

If Flip puts McDyess on Granger again I'm gonna cry.

And if the Wallaces get owned by scrubs again (Foster and Pollard), I'm going to cry some more.

This is not the current game thread, Shine's just upset that the Pacers still won't be able to field a real starting lineup even in April.

If Flip puts McDyess on Granger again I'm gonna cry.
And if the Wallaces get owned by scrubs again (Foster and Pollard), I'm going to cry some more.I'm not upset at all but I'm sure this guy appreciated the clarification.:laugh:

Jermaine O`Neal`s explanation for this Detroit win will be - he wanted to lose so they could grab the 8th seed, and beat Detroit in the playoffs.......:laugh:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Jermaine is such a punk. I am really looking forward to this.

Let's not forget that JO is coming off a severe injury, Harrison might be out for the year, and these "professionals" have basically quit on Carlisle. No excuses because we all know that Carlisle's 3 year window is just about up and his substittion patterns have become less than questionable.

Yeah this team won 60 games 2.8 seasons ago. Suffer.
Ps 95
IPs 83

I want this one.

Another loss to our team this afternoon would be like kicking the Pacers when they are inches from trying to regain their composure.

This loss could possibly be the one that sends them swooning straight out of the playoff picture.

I love it!

Take that Jermaine.

Pistons 91 Pacers 85

I actually want the pacers to make the playoffs, especially if they can finish in 6th or 7th. Reason being, I believe they are one of the few teams in the east that could knock off the nets or heat if things go their way. (Injuries specifically)

And if they do lose in the playoffs thats another load of press conferences we get to hear JO's 'if only' routine... :laugh:

have you noticed that indy is only 1.5 games ahead of philly and chicago? It would be funny if philly and chicago ended up making it and the pacers didn't.

CHAT IS OPEN!!!

See you around 1:00 players!

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Had to get my comments in before the game I had to chose between going to the Tigers game today of watch the Pistons. I choose the Pistons.

Great game today, means nothing we will not see the Pacers in the Playoffs. Pacers will come out and play very hard a game they need, and the Pistons need to take care of business lock up home court.

Pistons will win 90-83

C'mon. Artest, Sarunas, AJ, Foster and JO as the starters? Not.

Hey man, we had these things up on the calendar before you were even thinking about watching a preseason game. Give me a break.

Am amazed at how touchy you guys still get over these lineup pics. But that Artest pic bothered me back in December. Give me a break!

Fantastic second half.

:pound:at Dale Davis taking a 3.

Great to see Ben come out with a classic Ben Wallace type of game. Over 20 boards and overall dominance of the Pacers. Releives the worry for me over the Orlando incident.

Add what Delk and Hunter did there should be no more concerns over the bench besides some Delfino posts.

Kato made an appearance. He does look huge out there.

Offensive boards 18 to 7. Paint points 40 to 20.

Is this the official start of playoff mode? I say the Pistons run the table the last 5 games.

Good game today by the home team. Bench got us going in the second qtr with some hot shooting by Hunter and the starters put the game away in the 3rd qtr as Tay who did not score a single point in the first half, led the Pistons for the game with 17 pts.

Eleven Pistons scored including Kelvin Cato whose squeaky knees got their first action in a Piston game. Dale Davis who took two ugly shots, including a nasty three point attempt was the only Piston who didn't score. His did contribute with 3 meaningless rebounds in the last 4 minutes to go along with Ben "I don't want to go in now" Wallaces's 22 boards. The Pistons outboarded them 52-35 and out assisted them 27-17, and we are finally beating teams in the paint (40-20 today). :nod:

Good production from the bench for the 3rd game in a row,but this time they played well in both halves. 45 points, 20 brds, 11 assists, 3 steals. Interesting stat: We only take 8 ft's to their 28. Where was the home cooking?(No FT's by Ben tonight)

The Pacers are heading in the oposite direction as it relates to securing a playoff spot and will probably be facing the Pistons again if they are lucky?? or sitting at home watching. Our opening round opponent is still up for grabs as there are at least 4 teams trying to avoid us.:eyebrows:

Kato made an appearance. He does look huge out there.
Was Cato the one who couldn't back his man down, or was that Davis? Either way, Cato's kind of a poor man's Jerome James. Keep eating, big fella.:eyebrows:

An American friend of mine and I were playing a drinking game: one for every time your man gets burned. He represented Mo Evans for the Pistons, and I got Scrubarunas Jasikevicius. My memory of who won is kind of fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure he finished the first glass before I did. :ohwell:

Delk continues his hot streak, and Lindsey had the second of his twice-a-year hot shooting games. Dice was quietly productive off the bench. Rip got banged up, but had a decent game - especially on the defensive end - against Stephen "Ooohh Yeaah!" Jackson. All of our bigs did well against Jermaine O'Neal, who finished with 6 turnovers and gave up at least as many offensive rebounds. A quiet game from Tay and Chauncey.

I meant in size alone. not sure how productive he can be - we will see.

At this time I slightly favor Maxiel for the final spot.

Oh, yeah, he's definitely big. I was just wondering if he's one of those 300-pounders who doesn't have the strength to establish position, or if it's just conditioning. Either way, I doubt we'll ever call on him to be an offensive force.

I wish Flip had given Maxiell a few possessions on Shaq one of those games to see how well he could hold his ground. Actually, I wish Flip had given all of the bigs an audition instead of DNPing the lot. Cato is a huge stiff who's not useful for much more than committing fouls on Shaq - but the Pistons' defensive strategy doesn't call for Shaq to be fouled, so I guess I'd prefer Max too, even if he'd be nothing more than a victory cigar.

Ok guys I won this one. 12 pt blowout is better than anyone elses guess. Pace are officially scrubs.

He represented Mo Evans for the Pistons, and I got Scrubarunas Jasikevicius.

Pretty hard to imagine you're still standing. Seems like anyone being guarded by Jasikevicius just went right to the rim with him. I was starting to feel for the guy.

Nah.

Seem to recall a lot of bragging coming out of the Pacer's camp about Jasifjgfdguyrrd..... how ya doing Ski?
That boy make Arroyo look like the DPOY....
Just shows the discrepancy in Euro talent and here... he was like the top PG overseas..
Of all the Euros entering the league I can only think of three that can defend...AK47, Pietrus & Darko (when he's not taking flying lessons).

Was that Lindsey drinking out of the fountain today?

Did Delk restore our bench this year?... boy was I wrong about him.

Looks like the Ben tirade took effect hopefully we crush into the playoffs. Demoralized the Pacers,maybe they will fall out of the playoff race or maybe even better we see them first round sweep em' and watch JO be cryin:hurt:

Everybody knew that Jasikevicius was old and tremendously slow - that's why wasn't drafted in the first place. He's a winner, good shooter, good passer, etc., but he's not a good enough athlete to succeed in the NBA. I don't think Bird allowed himself to realize just how slow the guy is. And while there have been a number of stereotypical European players who can't play D, that's true of most Americans as well. Most players simply aren't good defenders. To expand your list of "Euros" who play above-average defense by NBA standards: Boris Diaw, Tony Parker, Andris Biedrins, Marko Jaric, Beno Udrih, Viktor Khryapa, Sasha Vujacic, Pau Gasol, and - I don't care what his reputation is, or how soft he is, he's at least a decent defensive player - Peja Stojakovic. And most of the "South American Euros" are pretty good defenders, too: Ginobili, Delfino, Nocioni, Barbosa, Varejao, Najera. Add in the "Chinese Euro", Yao - one of the top defensive centers in the NBA - and I'd say that Europeans play defense in approximately the same ratio to their general population as Americans do. I don't think anybody expected Jasikevicius to be one of those good defenders, although maybe some people didn't think he'd be that bad. But while I think you have a mistaken perception of "Euro talent", you're definitely right about the Euroleague. It's essentially comparable to NCAA basketball, and the defensive attitude is a lot more lax than the NBA - hey, even Mo was an All-Star MVP in the Italian league.

Delk is a flat-out scoring machine, and an above-average defender in his own right. He's Mike James without the over-the-top egomania. I don't know if he's restored the bench, and I'd really like to see him play more 1 than 2, but he's a nice addition. As for Lindsey - the fountain is a mirage. Sorry. He'll be back to his 1-for-5 self by next game. (:fingerscr:ohwell:)

ahb - there was a lot of pre-season hype over Jasikevicius. Even though he was 31 at the time and tried to join the league the previous season to no avail, mainly because of defensive concerns, he was all the rage. Every analyst who picked the Pacers cited him as one of the reasons. I never understood it. Winning that Euro tournament impressed everyone.

When you look at his stats he is not doing too bad but still a far cry from replacing R.Miller which is one of the real reasons why the Pacers are struggling. Losing that team leader has hurt the Pacers.

As everyone knows they also have had a ton of injuries. Jermaine O'Neal still does not look right.

I think the Pacers brought the hype to him instead of vice-versa. As you say, nobody would take him in previous years - even when he was a multiple-time champion - and even after he killed the USA team in the Olympics, nobody cared when he was rumored to be interested in Detroit and Cleveland and Utah (Utah?). Nobody cared when Arvydas Macijauskas, who was even more impressive in the Olympics, signed with the Hornets. It's only when noted racist Larry Bird and his media darling Indiana Pacers show interest that it becomes a sexy topic of conversation. Gah.

I completely agree that losing Miller's leadership has hurt the Pacers the most. The main problem is that the Pacers powers that be have tried to force JO into that role, and it's just not one he can accept. As for the injuries - they always have a ton of injuries, but that never stopped them from playing with some degree of heart. Tinsley is a complete joke, and O'Neal seems to be getting more and more injury-prone by the year - but they were on last season's team, too. Reggie Miller was a stabilizing force. Dale Davis helped a lot last season. Even Ron Artest, demonstrably insane as he is, is a leader, and leads by example. Jermaine O'Neal - as he as much as admitted just today - is nothing but a talker, and is considerably overrated as a player.

At one time the rest of the pacers were freezing him (Jasikevicius) out Stephen Jackson especially. They have zero leadership, and RC has no control of the team imo. I think they will get swept in the first round regardless of who they play and they will implode. That team is in a crash and burn state and we can thank Ron Ron 4 that

At one time the rest of the pacers were freezing him (Jasikevicius) out Stephen Jackson especially. They have zero leadership, and RC has no control of the team imo. I think they will get swept in the first round regardless of who they play and they will implode. That team is in a crash and burn state and we can thank Ron Ron 4 that

Thats not very productive. Why would they do that?

Man between Delk and Dyess and Hunter, the bench looks competative. I liked what they brought.

They had good ball movement for most of the game and that left the Pacer defense rotating wihich allowed Ben and Dyess open lanes to the glass. Guys always seemed to make the extra pass and a few times it was a little too extra but you gotta love that teamwork. The ball went through Ben's hands a lot and he moved the ball well. Add to that his offensive rebounding and kick out and he contributed greatly to the teams offense.

Dyess was all over the place. He brought a lot of hustle and energy. As a fan I felt confident when he came in. Hunter bit a few times on pump fakes and fouled Jaskksksks on a three point attempt but he was on fire on the other side. He owned Sarunas on both ends.

I liked how Prince attacked the basket...especially the baseline spin from the low post. He was part of a balanced attack that didn't have to keep going to the same option the whole game. Delk is a good back up 2. Aggressive. I'd be more comfortable with a little better decision making/passing betoween Delk and Hunter but otherwise I like having them come in.
I didn't care for Mo but he made as many good plays as he did bad ones.

In the second half, the pistons played a good stifling brand of defense that took JO out of the game. Good effort level overall.

Perhaps Shine can jump in anytime here as I have not watched a ton of Pacer games.

Seems like the owner is active and cares about his team. So we should see a lot of changes over the summer. Perhaps even firing Bird and Carlisle. Not a popular move to fire Bird but what has he really done?

Thats not very productive. Why would they do that?
The same reason Jackson screamed "Oh yeah!" after dunking when his team was down 20+. It's a completely dysfunctional team, and some players don't like passing to certain other players. I agree that Carlisle has found a way to completely alienate himself from his players, and at this point most of them seem to have quit, and arguably those that haven't are just auditioning themselves for trades.

(Well, Jackson just doesn't like to pass, period.)

ahb - Can Bird and Carlisle be seperated or will the 2 have to be fired together? That is would Bird ever fire Rick?

I'm hardly an expert, but I strongly expect that Carlisle will be fired/not re-signed unless there are huge personnel changes (i.e., at least the trade of Jermaine O'Neal) this summer. I don't know what Donnie Walsh will do with Bird, but "Larry Legend" hasn't done much in Indianapolis, and has as much to do with causing the current situation as anyone. I'm pretty sure that Walsh has resumed a more active role in the organization over the last year, and the final word would come from him, not Bird.

To expand your list of "Euros" who play above-average defense by NBA standards: Boris Diaw, Tony Parker, Andris Biedrins, Marko Jaric, Beno Udrih, Viktor Khryapa, Sasha Vujacic, Pau Gasol, and - I don't care what his reputation is, or how soft he is, he's at least a decent defensive player - Peja Stojakovic. And most of the "South American Euros" are pretty good defenders, too: Ginobili, Delfino, Nocioni, Barbosa, Varejao, Najera. Add in the "Chinese Euro", Yao - one of the top defensive centers in the NBA - and I'd say that Europeans play defense in approximately the same ratio to their general population as Americans do.
Identifying defensive talent is tough and subject to ones personal criteria.... Physical quickness, anticipation, mental capacity to recognize & react, physical strength and fortitude to break picks and hold position would be some of the important factors.
Typically the Euros don't focus as much to developing the strength attributes required.
I'm not going to comment on some of the names on your list... just ask that you reevaluate your opinions on what adequate defense is. The word "Soft" comes to mind.
I will agree that some Latin (and African American) Euros tend to possesion quicker muscle reflexes which can be a key component to sticking with your man... I tend to believe that shot blocking is overrated...
Kirilenko is willing to get down & dirty on "D"... Barbosa certainly has potential (sorry Bills) with his exceptional quickness & wingspan...
I'll stick with the original thought that the percentages are low of good Euro defnders.

Jermaine O'Neal postgame quotes...

"The last two or three weeks have pretty much been the same thing. We just will not play defense," O'Neal said. "At this point, we don't even deserve to be in the playoffs."
"We are embarrassing ourselves each and every night," O'Neal said. "There are talkers and there are doers. All we are is a talking team.
"I don't know if we are tanking the season, or if we just don't want to go to the playoffs, but we're getting murdered every night on the defensive end."

None of the Argentines are Latino. Delfino, Ginobili, and Nocioni are probably of mostly Italian ancestry.

A couple of final points:
* I'm not talking about talent or potential or athleticism or physical attributes that can be extrapolated; I'm not trying to construct a perfect defensive player from a list of "important factors". I'm talking about history and demonstrated success. Leandrinho Barbosa is a very good defender. Tony Parker one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA.
* If you consider shotblocking overrated, I find it curious that you think Kirilenko is a good defender. He's a poor-to-average man defender, like Gerald Wallace or Shawn Marion.
* Softness doesn't necessarily have much to do with how good a defender you are. I would consider Tayshaun Prince a very soft player, and he's widely recognized as an above-average defender. Peja Stojakovic is an extremely soft player, but he's only marginally worse defensively than Prince is. Rasho Nesterovic is as soft as they come, but he's a huge improvement defensively over Nazr Mohammed, a more physical player.

I'll stick with my original thought that the percentages are similar. I'm not sure whether Mo Evans counts as a Euro, that being where he spent most of his career, but he's living proof that there are Americans in the NBA who can be awful defensively. Or... take your pick. Jalen Rose? Vince Carter? LeBron James? Allen Iverson? Zach Randolph? Jason Williams and Dwyane Wade? I'd say that the majority of NBA players, no matter what minor leagues or nation they came from, are not very effective defensively.

I tend to believe that shot blocking is overrated...

I believe shot blocking is one of the best defensive skills one can have, steals being the other.

A player can stick to his man like glue, however, if he doesn`t possess the timing to block a shot or the anticipation and timing to make a steal he can be scored on at will.

On the other hand block shots usually come from big's, and the defense you are describing comes from guards and SF`s.

I am just biased, I think a couple of blocks gives an offensive player something to think about when he tries another shot similar to the one that came back at him.

ABC ran a great story about Rip and his mask before the game.

If you missed it, you can check it out at www.need4sheed.com (http://www.need4sheed.com)

ahb - Why do you consider Prince a soft player? He does not back down from anything. Yes he is quiet but thats not to be confused with his on court play.

ABC ran a great story about Rip and his mask before the game.

If you missed it, you can check it out at www.need4sheed.com (http://www.need4sheed.com)
Jammer, that video is hilarious. I advise everyone to check it out if you missed the pre-game. I'm not sure who is funnier. Rip Hamilton or Dominick Hasek.

I believe shot blocking is one of the best defensive skills one can have, steals being the other.

A player can stick to his man like glue, however, if he doesn`t possess the timing to block a shot or the anticipation and timing to make a steal he can be scored on at will.

On the other hand block shots usually come from big's, and the defense you are describing comes from guards and SF`s.

I am just biased, I think a couple of blocks gives an offensive player something to think about when he tries another shot similar to the one that came back at him.
Lemme qualify this... there's no doubt that shot blocking is a valuable defensive quality... however shot blocking can also be a weakness... case in point Dalembert (to a lesser extent Darko)... he's constantly being pump faked off his feet and getting burned or in foul trouble.
Ben OTOH, has much better timing of when to comit...leaving the offensive player guessing.. efficient blocking goes a long way towards intimidation.
Let's please not mention Rasho with anything remotely resembling a good defensive player... there's a couple reasons he gets pulled often... defense & foul trouble from lack of mobility.

Fantastic second half.

:pound:at Dale Davis taking a 3.had to watch the game late on my DVR...2nd funniest moment of the season...Amir's slam from Darko was first!!:nod:

What exactly is an African American Euro?

we kicked their @$$ and watching davis cap it off with a 3-pt attempt was awesome.

45 bench points!! even if we don't use mo or delfino in the playoffs, we should be fine. imagine if we had delk last year and had another offensive option and an 8th guy off the bench.

What exactly is an African American Euro?
Tony Parker, Boris Diaw.. Pietrus

I think Linwood was just pointing out that the term "African-American" doesn't exactly make sense when applied to people who aren't American.

I think Linwood was just pointing out that the term "African-American" doesn't exactly make sense when applied to people who aren't American.

LOL, ya got me there... sorry for the dumb analogy.

Parker, Diaw, and Pietrus are all French, so maybe a term for guys like them could just be "les freres" ("brothers"). :)

If academy award winner Charlize Theron, a native of South Africa, ever decides to become an American citizen, she would be the "lightest" African-American to win an Oscar:eyebrows:

Not to mention the hottest one! Yow!

Well, I guess Halle Berry's right there as well. She also won an Oscar, and obviously she's also insanely hot.

Still would have to go with Halle though as her shade is just my style:nod:

LOL! Look what I've started!

I like the idea of Les Freres for Parker and Diaw.

Good stuff, gentlemen.

however shot blocking can also be a weakness... case in point Dalembert (to a lesser extent Darko)


Ok, I feel you.......what you should say is the player blocking the shot is weak, or an undisciplined shot blocker, the act of shot blocking is not a weakness..........Agree?

Everybody knew that Jasikevicius was old and tremendously slow - that's why wasn't drafted in the first place. He's a winner, good shooter, good passer, etc., but he's not a good enough athlete to succeed in the NBA. I don't think Bird allowed himself to realize just how slow the guy is. And while there have been a number of stereotypical European players who can't play D, that's true of most Americans as well. Most players simply aren't good defenders. To expand your list of "Euros" who play above-average defense by NBA standards: Boris Diaw, Tony Parker, Andris Biedrins, Marko Jaric, Beno Udrih, Viktor Khryapa, Sasha Vujacic, Pau Gasol, and - I don't care what his reputation is, or how soft he is, he's at least a decent defensive player - Peja Stojakovic. And most of the "South American Euros" are pretty good defenders, too: Ginobili, Delfino, Nocioni, Barbosa, Varejao, Najera. Add in the "Chinese Euro", Yao - one of the top defensive centers in the NBA - and I'd say that Europeans play defense in approximately the same ratio to their general population as Americans do. I don't think anybody expected Jasikevicius to be one of those good defenders, although maybe some people didn't think he'd be that bad. But while I think you have a mistaken perception of "Euro talent", you're definitely right about the Euroleague. It's essentially comparable to NCAA basketball, and the defensive attitude is a lot more lax than the NBA - hey, even Mo was an All-Star MVP in the Italian league.

Delk is a

I agree with your post overall that there are plenty of International (aka Euro) players that can defend, but Beno Udrih absolutely sucks ass defensively. Just ask Spurs fans. Their defensive system hides him well enough, but it's still obvious.

I see Merc's point. I also see Dlev's point.

I'd still take Bruce Bowen or Ron Ron over a shotblocker like Darko or a steals artist like Larry Hughes.

Gambling is addictive (and harmful). There is something to be said for fundamental and hard nosed defense. The type that doesn't show up on a stat sheet unless you look at the numbers of the man being checked.

I see Merc's point. I also see Dlev's point.

I'd still take Bruce Bowen or Ron Ron over a shotblocker like Darko or a steals artist like Larry Hughes.

Gambling is addictive (and harmful). There is something to be said for fundamental and hard nosed defense. The type that doesn't show up on a stat sheet unless you look at the numbers of the man being checked.


I would like players with both defensive traits on my team Micro.

Wouldn`t it be nice if our Pistons had someone of the Bruce Bowen or Ron Ron defensive mold?

I would like players with both defensive traits on my team Micro.

Wouldn`t it be nice if our Pistons had someone of the Bruce Bowen or Ron Ron defensive mold?

Like a 3 time DPOY?

I know what you're sayin' Dlev59... I can't imagine which player we would replace though.

Jermaine O'Neal postgame quotes...

All talk??? Is JO talking bout himself? I believe he is the only Pacer who go on national TV telling everyone that they could beat the Pistons in the 1st of the playoffs.

In order to possibility do it, I would advise him not to play at all in the series since the only time the Pacers beat the Stones was when the Pacers were playing without him. But let me remind him, the Stones will white wash them if they were to meet in the playoffs.

Let's please not mention Rasho with anything remotely resembling a good defensive player... there's a couple reasons he gets pulled often... defense & foul trouble from lack of mobility.
Actually, Nesterovic was benched because he can't rebound. He's a much better shotblocker and makes quicker defensive rotations than Nazr Mohammed.

Actually, Nesterovic was benched because he can't rebound. He's a much better shotblocker and makes quicker defensive rotations than Nazr Mohammed.
I'm sellin'

All talk??? Is JO talking bout himself? I believe he is the only Pacer who go on national TV telling everyone that they could beat the Pistons in the 1st of the playoffs.

In order to possibility do it, I would advise him not to play at all in the series since the only time the Pacers beat the Stones was when the Pacers were playing without him. But let me remind him, the Stones will white wash them if they were to meet in the playoffs.

ha..ha..great point.

Hilarious.