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Pistons Vs Nuggets
November 23rd, 2005 ~ 7:30pm
The Palace of Auburn Hills, Auburn Hills, MI
TV: Local Only Radio: WDFN

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Denver Scouting Report

Record:7 - 5 (.583)Standings:First, NorthwestAt Home:5 - 1At Road:2 - 4Streak:W 4

RESERVED

truly i have not seen the pistons defense yet, sure the offense looks a hell of a lot better but the pistons for the last 4 or 5 games only turned up there defense in the 3rd and 4th quarters (phoenix, portland, boston, and dallas). if the pistons keep this flip offense and play there defense they'll be great. yes the pistons beat phoenix, portland, and boston, but that kind of play won't always work as shown in the dallas game. the way the piston players are reacting especially tayshaun prince i am expectiong us to shutdown the nuggets today. i have seen so many quotes from tay about how the pistons are expecting too much help and that everyone needs to play harder D on there man. today i think it will be Tayshaun who leads us to victory by shutting down Melo than the rest of the pistons will get back to there d. Player of the game: Tayshaun Prince 15 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and keeping melo to 9 points mainly of free-throws. I want to see some Deeeetroit basketball today! who's with me.

truly i have not seen the pistons defense yet, sure the offense looks a hell of a lot better but the pistons for the last 4 or 5 games only turned up there defense in the 3rd and 4th quarters (phoenix, portland, boston, and dallas). if the pistons keep this flip offense and play there defense they'll be great. yes the pistons beat phoenix, portland, and boston, but that kind of play won't always work as shown in the dallas game. the way the piston players are reacting especially tayshaun prince i am expectiong us to shutdown the nuggets today. i have seen so many quotes from tay about how the pistons are expecting too much help and that everyone needs to play harder D on there man. today i think it will be Tayshaun who leads us to victory by shutting down Melo than the rest of the pistons will get back to there d. Player of the game: Tayshaun Prince 15 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, and keeping melo to 9 points mainly of free-throws. I want to see some Deeeetroit basketball today! who's with me.

I think you may be right about Detroit turning up the heat on defense. I was thinking the same thing but I don't know how fast they can turn it on & off.

Anyhow, I hope it happens because I am playing against Carmello & Camby in our fantasy league and they are not being kind to me so far.

The Nugs like to work inside... they are last in the association at 3 pointers @ 19 %... we should force them to shoot outside.
They attempt at least 4 lobs per game so we have to watch this closely.
Kmart may be back tonight.
Anytime Elson is in the game we can sag off him (he can't shoot)
Melo is in better condition this year... he likes to force contact and go for the and ones.
If they don't put Camby on Sheed then the Nugs have no answer for him... if they do go for this match up then Sheed can draw their shot blocker/rebounder out of the paint.
Nugs coming off a game last night we should play up tempo from the start.
Rip should have a big game tonight.

So they talk about bringing the D in the early part of the game. Let's hope they do.

I thought that Darko could have had some good match ups in previous games. I don't know about this game.

I say the Pistons get serious tonight Det. 94 Den. 85.:)

Go Pistons!!!!!

I want to see some Deeeetroit basketball today! who's with me.
count me in! I want to see some good defensive play tonight. I hope they make good on all the issues Tayshaun has been talking about the last few days.

if the pistons don't make a conscious effort to attack the boards camby will eat us alive. thats not such a bad thing for my fantasy team, but in the non-fantasy world we need to REBOUND!

back at home now, time to remember what our bread and butter is. allow only 1 shot, and get in their face.

pistons to flush these nuggets down the toilet and out of the building 98-90

The Nuggets don't scare me as much in the post Rodney White era. When RW was with the team no lead against them was safe because at any time he could come in and light it up.

Last November 11th they whipped us 117-109.Rodney went off for 13 points and Boykins chipped in 32 and Melo helped out with 34.

http://basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2004&b=20041111&tm=Den

I'm picking the exact reverse score for this game, a year later....without White the Nuggets fall 117-109 and we still don't see true Piston's defense.

Nugs are good oh wait this is not a Pauly Shore encino man forum:doh:
If the pistons come out and establish the defensive tone early we should roll.
Miller is no match for Billups, Johnson barley plays so who else do the nuggets have that can keep up with Rip city nobody our guards should dominate this 1 Pistons 104 nugs 87

Pistons up 28-23 at the end of the first. The offense is much, much better than last year. The defense is much, much worse than last year.

Looks to me like the Pistons are relying a little too much on their athleticism and not solid rotations or positioning.

Tayshaun has done a decent job on Carmelo, but as is his M.O., when Tay's defending, he's usually not getting very involved in the offense.

Subs in the first were Evans for Tay, Dice for Sheed and at the end of the quarter, Arroyo for Billups.

Denver looks decent, outworking the Pistons on the boards. Miller was relatively quiet, Camby is playing quite well, his jumper has come a long way.

K-mart didn't start but gave Ben a nice hard foul in the paint. He also had a monster putback on a missed layup. Again, the Pistons are not controlling the paint very well.


OOOOOOOOOO start of the second, primo matchup. Earl Watson vs. Arroyo. Stay tuned.

Halftime, Pistons 60, Denver 43.

Basically an offensive explosion when Dice/Evans/Arroyo were matched up with a small Denver bench. Starters came back and played even. 60 points is great. Really great. But still no defense on dribble penetration and the Pistons seem to either 1) not be trying to rotate or 2) have no idea what the rotation should be.

This will be a blowout unless Denver can muster a big 3rd quarter to get it close.

Good stuff from the bench so far:
McDyess: 7 pts (2-4), 3 reb, 2 ass, 2 stl
Evans: 8 pts (4-5), 3 reb, 1 ass, 2 stl
Arroyo: 4 pts (2-3), 1 reb

Maybe we'll see a little Delfino and Darko in the 4th.

Carmelo Anthony is such a punk on defense. Every time he is challanged he backs out of the play. He dosen't go hard unless the ball is in his hands. WHAT A PUNK!!

we should wear these red jerseys more often.

Only 8 minutes played through three quarters. He has to play more IMO - and not just in blowout minutes. Mahorn (on the radio) talked about how many assists the Pistons have tonight. A bunch.

Ben is 7 of 8 from the free-throw line? Holy smokes. :rockon:

7 Pistons in double-figures already.

Pistons have 33 assists (on 38 FG) already with 8:30 left in the game.

The NBA record is 53, by the way (Milwaukee vs Detroit, 1978).

The LA Lakers averaged 31.4 assists per game back in 1985.

Scott Skiles once had 30 assists in one game (1990).

The Nuggets don't scare me as much in the post Rodney White era. When RW was with the team no lead against them was safe because at any time he could come in and light it up.

Last November 11th they whipped us 117-109.Rodney went off for 13 points and Boykins chipped in 32 and Melo helped out with 34.

http://basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2004&b=20041111&tm=Den

I'm picking the exact reverse score for this game, a year later....without White the Nuggets fall 117-109 and we still don't see true Piston's defense. care to recant your "d-fense" statement, my bruddah?

Pistons have 33 assists (on 38 FG) already with 8:30 left in the game.

The NBA record is 53, by the way (Milwaukee vs Detroit, 1978).

The LA Lakers averaged 31.4 assists per game back in 1985.

Scott Skiles once had 30 assists in one game (1990).....the baddest collegiate senior season I ever seen.
ALL SPARTANS TEAM-
F- Magic
F- Smith
G- Cleaves
G- Skiles
G- Richardson
my big bruddah!

we should wear these red jerseys more often. I cant see the game...is it really nice?

....the baddest collegiate senior season I ever seen.
ALL SPARTANS TEAM-
F- Magic
F- Smith
G- Cleaves
G- Skiles
G- Richardson
my big bruddah!

???

What about Special-K & MoPete?

...same can be said for Peterson and Cleaves. Cleaves was GREAT for 4 years, my bruddah!

OK, I'm ready to admit that perhaps my attitude about defense first is the problem.

The Pistons can score. They can score in bunches. Tonight was great with Dice and Evans (along with Arroyo) basically destroying Denver's reserves in the second quarter.

Highlight of garbage time was a dual putback by J-Max and Evans on the same rebound. Garbage time no longer sucks to watch because it has become the JMax show.

FREE THE BRAHMA!

Solid effort, the defense is still slow, but if this offense can show up 2 nights out of 3 with an improvement on defense, I am liking our chances.

Anyone who missed it, the red uniforms look great. They are a nice changeup from the traditional colours, on one break in particular it was 4 on 1 Pistons and Bill or George remarked that it looked like a red swarm (or sea, I was chewing at the time :P ).

All 11 Detroit players who hit the court both scored and had at least one assist.

Detroit had SEVEN players with double digit points.

Dice's stat line

4-7 from the field
3-5 from the line
11 Points
7 boards
2 Assists
2 Steals
2 Blocks
2 Turns
2 Fouls

Way to fill the stat sheet Antonio!

Leave it Dice to wake up the day after I put him on waivers:frusty: . May have to re-sign him to my fantasy team if he keeps this up, but I am sure someone else will grab him if he turns in a similar performance on Friday night. Glad he was finally able to contribute. :)

Good to see the Detroit teams, Pistons and Red Wings do it to the Denver,Colorado teams tonight :thumb: after being punked over the weekend by Dallas Mavs and Cowboys

ESPN Classic trying to ruin the night however right now by replaying the Ohio State-Michigan disaster-game from this past Saturday. :mad:

My Dee first brothern. Don't be scared. Just because this wasn't a 75, 65 bump fest. Shot 53% , 43.7% from downtown. 50% while the game was in question.[7 for 14] It's called "ShowTime" don't be scared.
Micro did you spit or choke?:doh:

Dre, good post. take the good with the bad.

checking the boxscore that looks great 36 assists and how about dice and tays defense on melo. missed the game because i have just reached chicago, and the traffic was hard.

@TheeTFD

I just shook my head side to side at the defense until I realized I was watching the mid 80's Lakers wearing Pistons uniforms at which point I started bobbing my head like this guy...:nod:

Before the year is done I would like to see a 69 pointer from the opponent. Dee check.

Micro, I share your passion for defense but if we can win with offense against most teams in the regular season, it is better because (A) the regular season is about offense and (2) we won't burn out as much because defense is harder to play. I don't know if we are the old Lakers (something special is there for sure with this team) but if we can score, when we do get into a defensive battle, we won't go through those droughts of the past. And, in any such battle, our guys are more athletic than anyone else--our defense is capable of making the big play over any defense in the league. As long is we don't shut down offensively, we will win most games and that includes SA. We may be in the middle of a special Pistons era.

Denver was a hot team coming in, having won their last 4. But it was a back to back for them too. One of the biggest changes of late for Denver is that they are playing Watson, a pretty darn good player.

But comparing backup points, I'll take Arroyo over Boykins or Watson any day. Arroyo flat out can play basketball. As he dribbles the ball down the court, he is looking at everything. And he makes a decision quick. And the right decision. Our offense with him in is dynamic, exciting to watch and just plain effective.

Flip Saunders said it quite well in the post game interview. Good dynamic offense leads right in to good defense. Stagnent offense on the other hand leads to poor defense. Tonight, with Billups having a fine floor game, and Arroyo following with a truely masterful floor game, it was a ton of fun to watch. Having midcourt seats helped too. I wish the crowd was making a bit more noise, but then again, with a blowout from nearly beginning to end, how excited can the fans get. And we did not score 120. Darn. Other than that, you can't complain about a thing about how things are going. But I will try anyway.

Darko saw no action when the game counted. But he got a good solid run in the 4th quarter in a game decided quite early. Arroyo, Evans, and Dyess totally destroyed Denver in the 2nd quarter, but still Flip brought in his starters to end the 2nd quarter. But hey, those subs stayed out there longer than usual by quite a bit. Progress. Plenty of bench play, scoring over 40. And pretty much deciding the game before the starters got back into the game.

We came out with an 8 point lead to start the 2nd quarter. Good job by CB and the starters to that point, with Dyess coming in very early and Evans also coming in well before the end of the quarter. Then Arroyo gets his turn to run the show. A 10-2 run makes them cry and call a timeout. Our subs stay out there as Denver brings all its starters back. Another run by our subs puts them away, makes them cry uncle, and call yet another timeout. And then our starters come back in for the last 3 or 4 minutes of the half. Then to start the 2nd, our starters put a 14-3 hurt to them to completely seal the deal.

Tay looked so good guarding Melo it was pretty pathetic to even try to compare a limited player like Melo to Tay at all. And Tay was scoring as he felt the mood. His triple ended all hopes of Denver making a game of it mid 3rd quarter.

Sheed hit a couple of triples, played his usual fine defense. But he did not go inside much. Against Denver, you think he would just go down there and set up a tent. Denver ain't got nothing inside. Camby can block some shots, but has zero in the beef department.

Dyess hit one outside shot. Still not hitting those outsiders. But tonight he as usual cleaned the boards, was good going for loose balls, played ok D, and took advantage of Denvers lack of an inside presence to make hay.

Darko and Delfino looked pretty darn good out there in garbage time. Rather than complain about them not playing, I will instead rejoice in the depth we got on this team. Maxiell can play too. So can Dale Davis. Etc. Man do we have talent on this team.

Ben is hitting some free throws this year, making others guard him, and hitting some inside shots if someone is not doing a real good job of guarding him. I don't like LB for some issues, but man what a good decision to get Ben involved in the offense. And oh, ho hum, tons of rebounds, shot blocks, intimidations, excellent floor coverage. Typical brilliance from Ben. (Much of which you must be at the Palace to grasp.)

Rip was just Rip. Run the defender to death off pick after pick. A lot more picks than last year. Way more. And Rip hits his shots after that marathon he just won. And Rip was working on his range too. One triple just barely missed or he would have had one great night shooting long range. Rip has been consistently knocking down shots just inside the line. I applaud his efforts to extend out his range just a foot or two more.

CB. 11 assists. Gettin to seem like its just not a fluke at all. And 16 points. A smooth jumper. Scores inside at will. Another circus shot made falling down. This one not quite as spectacular because it was right under the basket. But he was fouled good and hard and converted the 3 point play.

Evan continues to shoot great, get bounds, score inside. Still not a clue about ball handling, but I will certainly take what he has to offer.

Maxiell scored 6 in about 6 minutes. Its real. The guy has loads of talent. I am still patiently waiting for Flip to get him in to a first half of a game. All for now. GO PISTONS!!!!!

Stagnent offense on the other hand leads to poor defense.

Nice recap Lee. It's always nice to get the perspective from fans that were at the game.

However I do have to disagree with you on one point. I use the past 2 seasons under LB and the 2 before that under Carlisle as exhibits 1 through 4. If those weren't stagnent offenses, I don't know what is. All the while we were setting records for our defence.

i don't know why people are disappointed with the defense tonight...it created a TON of our offense and easy baskets. 10 steals, 12 blocks, 49-37 edge in rebounds...yeah a few guys might have penetrated the paint early...but as the game went on all of those attempts were locked down by our athletic bigs.

tayshaun did a good job on carmelo but he also had a lot of help...carmelo is strong and was able to push tay back to the basket or along the baseline more than once - even tay said after the game that it wasn't him, it was the guys behind him putting on the clamps. how ' bout the rest? let's go down the list...

- sheed 3 straight 3-pointers pretty from the end of the 2nd to the 14-3 run in the 3rd pretty much sealed the game; also yes he played a lot up top but he had some brilliant passes from up top to give guys like tay easy layups
- ben was a monster, rip had his usual game, tay was solid w/shooting % and defense, mcdyess is improving and hustles as hard as anyone, chauncey was sweet
- darko forgot to bend his knees on free throws but played solid D, was aggressive, and got 3 blocks in 9 minutes (i only saw 2 but yeah)
- starters played limited minutes (tay 26, sheed 22, cb 28), while mcdyess, evans, and arroyo played 20+ each, and the bench unit scored 43, awesome job
- evans is a beast, getting boards, putbacks, hitting open jumpers - did i not say he would be a *steal* at $1.5 million?
- maxiel is NBA-ready no question. his offensive post game alone is smooth and mature, he can block, *grab* rebounds, bang around in the post, contest and alter shots, you name it. the kid looks great.
- finally outrebounded, everyone with an assists - woot!!
- we attacked the basket and therefore got the benefit of a ton of calls, and forcing denver to work harder on defense was obvious after the 1st quarter, as just about all of their shots were short, and they were tired
- can't think of anything else right now - go pistons!! :D

You guys have to be mindfull of not comparing the playoff Pistons of last year to the current early season Pistons. Last season at this time we were struggling to hold opponents under 100.

As things go on there will be more points overall but that does not mean the defense is worse. It means a faster tempo is being player, less shot clock means more shots.

Fair comparisons would be things like FG%, blocks, steals, TO's.

Like tonights game. Great defense but at a faster pace. Instead of 104-79 it was 114-89.

I saw a lot of good things return tonight after the team had a chance to rest. Rebounding advantage, nice TO ratio, assists up the kazoo. Pistons are the best passing team in the league according to the opponents coach.

Nice recap Lee. It's always nice to get the perspective from fans that were at the game.

However I do have to disagree with you on one point. I use the past 2 seasons under LB and the 2 before that under Carlisle as exhibits 1 through 4. If those weren't stagnent offenses, I don't know what is. All the while we were setting records for our defence.

Things just are not quite so simple. Were we really playing such great d Under Carlisle? NJ killed us in the playoffs. We played D to the point of insanity. We shot the ball, and all five Pistons streaked back on defense with zero effort to try for an offensive rebound. Thats not good D, thats just bad offense.

Brown played a game where you did not shoot the ball early in the clock. Longer posessions meant less ops for the other team to score. But Brown system also insisted that you try to force the ball inside at nearly all costs. This leads to less long rebounds, less fast breaks, better defense. But Brown's offensive scheme was a lot more dynamic than you think. And very organized. Shots went up with guards in position, offensive rebounders in position. We attacked the inside relentlessly. It may not have looked all that pretty, but Brown's system works. Even if just five seconds were on that clock, Brown taught the Pistons they still had time to get the ball inside for a high percentage shot. Stagnent? Sometimes. But very effective for the greatest part.

OK, I'm ready to admit that perhaps my attitude about defense first is the problem.

The Pistons can score. They can score in bunches. Tonight was great with Dice and Evans (along with Arroyo) basically destroying Denver's reserves in the second quarter.

Highlight of garbage time was a dual putback by J-Max and Evans on the same rebound. Garbage time no longer sucks to watch because it has become the JMax show.

FREE THE BRAHMA!

Solid effort, the defense is still slow, but if this offense can show up 2 nights out of 3 with an improvement on defense, I am liking our chances.

Anyone who missed it, the red uniforms look great. They are a nice changeup from the traditional colours, on one break in particular it was 4 on 1 Pistons and Bill or George remarked that it looked like a red swarm (or sea, I was chewing at the time :P ).Let the baby bull looose, Bruddah Mikecro...I feel ya!!!

Great "caps" all. I guess it's fun when you blow the other team out.

Denver was a hot team coming in, having won their last 4. But it was a back to back for them too. One of the biggest changes of late for Denver is that they are playing Watson, a pretty darn good player.

But comparing backup points, I'll take Arroyo over Boykins or Watson any day. Arroyo flat out can play basketball. As he dribbles the ball down the court, he is looking at everything. And he makes a decision quick. And the right decision. Our offense with him in is dynamic, exciting to watch and just plain effective.

Flip Saunders said it quite well in the post game interview. Good dynamic offense leads right in to good defense. Stagnent offense on the other hand leads to poor defense. Tonight, with Billups having a fine floor game, and Arroyo following with a truely masterful floor game, it was a ton of fun to watch. Having midcourt seats helped too. I wish the crowd was making a bit more noise, but then again, with a blowout from nearly beginning to end, how excited can the fans get. And we did not score 120. Darn. Other than that, you can't complain about a thing about how things are going. But I will try anyway.

Darko saw no action when the game counted. But he got a good solid run in the 4th quarter in a game decided quite early. Arroyo, Evans, and Dyess totally destroyed Denver in the 2nd quarter, but still Flip brought in his starters to end the 2nd quarter. But hey, those subs stayed out there longer than usual by quite a bit. Progress. Plenty of bench play, scoring over 40. And pretty much deciding the game before the starters got back into the game.

We came out with an 8 point lead to start the 2nd quarter. Good job by CB and the starters to that point, with Dyess coming in very early and Evans also coming in well before the end of the quarter. Then Arroyo gets his turn to run the show. A 10-2 run makes them cry and call a timeout. Our subs stay out there as Denver brings all its starters back. Another run by our subs puts them away, makes them cry uncle, and call yet another timeout. And then our starters come back in for the last 3 or 4 minutes of the half. Then to start the 2nd, our starters put a 14-3 hurt to them to completely seal the deal.

Tay looked so good guarding Melo it was pretty pathetic to even try to compare a limited player like Melo to Tay at all. And Tay was scoring as he felt the mood. His triple ended all hopes of Denver making a game of it mid 3rd quarter.

Sheed hit a couple of triples, played his usual fine defense. But he did not go inside much. Against Denver, you think he would just go down there and set up a tent. Denver ain't got nothing inside. Camby can block some shots, but has zero in the beef department.

Dyess hit one outside shot. Still not hitting those outsiders. But tonight he as usual cleaned the boards, was good going for loose balls, played ok D, and took advantage of Denvers lack of an inside presence to make hay.

Darko and Delfino looked pretty darn good out there in garbage time. Rather than complain about them not playing, I will instead rejoice in the depth we got on this team. Maxiell can play too. So can Dale Davis. Etc. Man do we have talent on this team.

Ben is hitting some free throws this year, making others guard him, and hitting some inside shots if someone is not doing a real good job of guarding him. I don't like LB for some issues, but man what a good decision to get Ben involved in the offense. And oh, ho hum, tons of rebounds, shot blocks, intimidations, excellent floor coverage. Typical brilliance from Ben. (Much of which you must be at the Palace to grasp.)

Rip was just Rip. Run the defender to death off pick after pick. A lot more picks than last year. Way more. And Rip hits his shots after that marathon he just won. And Rip was working on his range too. One triple just barely missed or he would have had one great night shooting long range. Rip has been consistently knocking down shots just inside the line. I applaud his efforts to extend out his range just a foot or two more.

CB. 11 assists. Gettin to seem like its just not a fluke at all. And 16 points. A smooth jumper. Scores inside at will. Another circus shot made falling down. This one not quite as spectacular because it was right under the basket. But he was fouled good and hard and converted the 3 point play.

Evan continues to shoot great, get bounds, score inside. Still not a clue about ball handling, but I will certainly take what he has to offer.

Maxiell scored 6 in about 6 minutes. Its real. The guy has loads of talent. I am still patiently waiting for Flip to get him in to a first half of a game. All for now. GO PISTONS!!!!!
i luv u:laugh:
max is reeeeeel!

Very nice post General Lee. Thank you. :)

Flip Saunders said it quite well in the post game interview. Good dynamic offense leads right in to good defense. Stagnent offense on the other hand leads to poor defense.
The team that won the title two years ago was famous for both

Their stagnent offense

and

Great defense

Flipper proves once again that he knows squat about Piston history.

But then again Mr. D. ain't paying him to be a history major, but to win another few NBA titles.

just wondering why some people think its necessary to quote a page-long post. it just means i have to do more scrolling... :mad:

I'm upset I missed this game. Great to hear that the bench showed up last night. :rockon: Looks like Arroyo did a good job keepin' the reserves on the floor. By the way, nice recap Lee.

You're wrong about the stagnent offense/defense point though. :) I tend to believe that defensive turnovers lead to offense rather than the inverse for the most part. It was primarily Brown's insistence on using up the shot clock that limited the Pistons opportunities to score (as you mentioned as well).

I'm upset I missed this game. Great to hear that the bench showed up last night. :rockon: Looks like Arroyo did a good job keepin' the reserves on the floor. By the way, nice recap Lee.

You're wrong about the stagnent offense/defense point though. :) I tend to believe that defensive turnovers lead to offense rather than the inverse for the most part. It was primarily Brown's insistence on using up the shot clock that limited the Pistons opportunities to score (as you mentioned as well).

With Arroyo bringing the ball up, seeing the whole floor, calculating the right play, and never turning the ball over, (nor making any decisions that might lead to a teammate throwing the ball away) the other team gets no easy points off our turns. With Arroyo running things such that shots go up with offensive rebounders in place for us, we often get the rebound and of course the other team can't score if they can't get the ball. And if Arroyo consistently brings that ball right to the basket, by good passes or just routinely dribbling it to the basket and handing it off to one of the bigs as he does, long rebounds are minimized, limiting fast break ops for the other team. And finally, with the Pistons getting all those high percentage shots from Arroyo constantly making the right decision, most of the time a whole lot of shots go into the basket. And if our shot goes in, the other team starts from under their own basket, seldom able to generate a fast break from there.

In sum, our excelently run offense leaves no ops for the other team's defense to generate any easy buckets off our offense, be it turns, long rebounds, or even many short rebounds. (Which we often get.)

The team that won the title two years ago was famous for both

Their stagnent offense

and

Great defense

Flipper proves once again that he knows squat about Piston history.

But then again Mr. D. ain't paying him to be a history major, but to win another few NBA titles.

It was Carlilse who was known for having stagnent offense with his starters on the floor, which included both Curry and Ben at the same time. Basically, either Rip or Billups scored, or nobody. Too often nobody. The year before that, in Carlisle's first year, we did not even have Rip nor CB on the team. Even uglier.

With Arroyo bringing the ball up, seeing the whole floor, calculating the right play, and never turning the ball over, (nor making any decisions that might lead to a teammate throwing the ball away)...


I don't think the stuff in bold is possible, lol. :confused:

It was Carlilse who was known for having stagnent offense with his starters on the floor, which included both Curry and Ben at the same time. Basically, either Rip or Billups scored, or nobody. Too often nobody. The year before that, in Carlisle's first year, we did not even have Rip nor CB on the team. Even uglier.

okay, I fail to see the point you are making. Doesn't a stagnent offense cause a scoring drought? :confused:

It was Carlilse who was known for having stagnent offense with his starters on the floor, which included both Curry and Ben at the same time. Basically, either Rip or Billups scored, or nobody. Too often nobody. The year before that, in Carlisle's first year, we did not even have Rip nor CB on the team. Even uglier. Carlisle's personality is staganent!!

With Arroyo bringing the ball up, seeing the whole floor, calculating the right play, and never turning the ball over, (nor making any decisions that might lead to a teammate throwing the ball away) the other team gets no easy points off our turns. With Arroyo running things such that shots go up with offensive rebounders in place for us, we often get the rebound and of course the other team can't score if they can't get the ball. And if Arroyo consistently brings that ball right to the basket, by good passes or just routinely dribbling it to the basket and handing it off to one of the bigs as he does, long rebounds are minimized, limiting fast break ops for the other team. And finally, with the Pistons getting all those high percentage shots from Arroyo constantly making the right decision, most of the time a whole lot of shots go into the basket. And if our shot goes in, the other team starts from under their own basket, seldom able to generate a fast break from there.

In sum, our excelently run offense leaves no ops for the other team's defense to generate any easy buckets off our offense, be it turns, long rebounds, or even many short rebounds. (Which we often get.)

umm...Arroyo hasn't played enough this year to accredit him for all of our offensive bursts. Besides, in my opinion that this was the first time all season that he has had an obvious impact on our offensive production. ..and when was the last time we had a turnover problem? Chauncey did everything you spoke about last year except we didn't have a bench to go to. That said.... I still see your point.

A more efficient offense (which I think is more of a credit to Flip than Carlos) leads to a lower margin of easy offensive opportunities for the opposition.

But...in a situation where you have two strong offensive squads it is defensive presence and turnovers that likely will be the deciding factor. So I still subscribe to the defense wins championships theory. Otherwise we would be looking at the Suns as defending champions right now.

While we're on the subject of defensive effectiveness.....

Here's some other food for thought. With the Pistons propensity to take quicker shots, how has that translated into shot attempts for the opposition compared to last year? ..and if you look at the increased shot attempts over last year, how well are we truely performing on "D"? Is there truely that big of a drop off of points allowed based on possession?

Great , logical post! Nuff said.

okay, I fail to see the point you are making. Doesn't a stagnent offense cause a scoring drought? :confused:

Brown did not run a stagnent offense. Most of the time, it was pretty darn effective. You don't see high numbers only because our use of the whole shotclock limited the number of posessions. Remember this, we won a championship, and came 12 minutes from a back to back with Brown's offense. If it was stagnent, no way that happens. Occasionally, we would hit a scoring drought. Big difference. A perfecrtly good offense which has an occasional scoring drought now and then can't be called a stagnent offense.

umm...Arroyo hasn't played enough this year to accredit him for all of our offensive bursts. Besides, in my opinion that this was the first time all season that he has had an obvious impact on our offensive production. ..and when was the last time we had a turnover problem? Chauncey did everything you spoke about last year except we didn't have a bench to go to. That said.... I still see your point.

A more efficient offense (which I think is more of a credit to Flip than Carlos) leads to a lower margin of easy offensive opportunities for the opposition.

But...in a situation where you have two strong offensive squads it is defensive presence and turnovers that likely will be the deciding factor. So I still subscribe to the defense wins championships theory. Otherwise we would be looking at the Suns as defending champions right now.

While we're on the subject of defensive effectiveness.....

Here's some other food for thought. With the Pistons propensity to take quicker shots, how has that translated into shot attempts for the opposition compared to last year? ..and if you look at the increased shot attempts over last year, how well are we truely performing on "D"? Is there truely that big of a drop off of points allowed based on possession?

Just because a well run offense helps your defense does not mean that playing good defense does not help your offense. Both things are true. And both are very important.

I think it would be a stretch to say our offense was "pretty darn effective" the last couple years. We had far too many scoring droughts and our FG% was in the bottom half of the league.

One thing that's interesting to note this year is that we are 6th in PPG allowed (pretty good) but in the bottom third in FG% against (which I have generally considered the most useful gauge of a team's defensive prowess because it doesn't depend on the tempo of the game).

The reason for this apparently contradictory information can be found at the free-throw line. We are #1 in the NBA in fewest FT per game allowed.

Now, we can look at this stat two different ways. One possibility is that we are good fundamental defenders. The other is that perhaps with a few more fouls (especially at the rim) maybe our opponents' FG% would drop.

Joe, himself, said that he couldn't stand the droughts. We are too good to have had so many droughts. At least, I hope that is true. We will find out this year.

I think it would be a stretch to say our offense was "pretty darn effective" the last couple years. We had far too many scoring droughts and our FG% was in the bottom half of the league.

One thing that's interesting to note this year is that we are 6th in PPG allowed (pretty good) but in the bottom third in FG% against (which I have generally considered the most useful gauge of a team's defensive prowess because it doesn't depend on the tempo of the game).

The reason for this apparently contradictory information can be found at the free-throw line. We are #1 in the NBA in fewest FT per game allowed.

Now, we can look at this stat two different ways. One possibility is that we are good fundamental defenders. The other is that perhaps with a few more fouls (especially at the rim) maybe our opponents' FG% would drop.

Don't overanalyze data that may simply be skewed early by some hot shooting nights by a few teams. Also, did you factor in turns? Really, our defense should be judged by their percentage of shot attempts they get off our shot attempts, multiplied by their shooting percentage. (Factoring in free throw attempts somehow as shots.) Got that?

Lets slow that down. If we take a shot, the expectation is that they should get the ball whether we miss the shot or make it. So we shoot the ball. They should get then one shot attempt. Unless we get the offensive rebound, or we steal the ball before they shoot it. If they miss a shot and get the offensive rebound, it raises their percentage of shot attempts.

To figure this, start with our shot attempts. Add a number to our shot attempts based on free throws we took. May call it one shot attempt per 1.5 free throws we take. Now you got the denominator. Use their shot attempts as the numerator.

Multiply this fraction by their modified shooting percentage. Their shooting percentage has to be modified to account for times where they get free throws. Perhaps count every 1.5 free throws as a shot attempt for them. (refer to these as added shot attempts.) To adjust the makes, multiply the added shot attempts by the percentage of free throws made, giving you the added makes.

Change that a bit. Use 2 free throws = one shot attempt. Also, count each made 3 as a made free throw for this calculation.

If you multiply our shooting percentage, adjusted for foul makes and misses, by our percentage of times getting a shot after their shot attempts, adjusted by their free throw attempts, you get 58%.

Conversely, you get 50% for the same calculations for our opponents.

I did not use the formula I posted earlier as I saw some flaws in it.

One of the main things that make our number so much better is our lack of turns. We also have a slight edge in rebounding yet over our opponents.

By the way, we are just shooting 1.5% better than our opponents, so that by no means is the bulk of the difference.

Brown did not run a stagnent offense. Most of the time, it was pretty darn effective. You don't see high numbers only because our use of the whole shotclock limited the number of posessions. Remember this, we won a championship, and came 12 minutes from a back to back with Brown's offense. If it was stagnent, no way that happens. Occasionally, we would hit a scoring drought. Big difference. A perfecrtly good offense which has an occasional scoring drought now and then can't be called a stagnent offense.

Rather than speak using abstract concepts, lets look at the real numbers:

Brown's Pistons -

2003-2004 ~ 90.1 p/g 43% team FG pct.
2004-2005 ~ 93.3 p/g 44% team FG pct.

Carlisle's Pacers -

2003-2004 ~ 91.4 p/g 44% team FG pct.
2004-2005 ~ 93.0 p/g 43% team FG pct.

Sounds like the same "stagnent" offense to me.

It is also important to mention that both teams have competed pretty evenly during the postseason as well. In this situation, the statistical inferior offensive team actually went on to win the championship. hmm.....

More food for thought:

Carlisle's Pistons:

2001-2002 ~ 94.3 p/g 45% team field goal pct.
2002-2003 ~ 91.4 p/g 43% team field goal pct.


What does this mean? This means that the offensive production of Detroit actually dropped when Brown took over in 2003. This also means that Carlisle was able to get 94 points a game out of his team. Not bad. This was before the defensive rule changes.

An eerie stat is that Carlisle's Pacers duplicated his previous effort with the Pistons. 91.4 p/g 44% team FG pct. Wierd.

So regardless of what formula you put together, the end result is that Brown's offense never proved to be more effective than Carlisle's. We did not see in increase in field goal pct, so that suggests that we did not really see "better shots" under Brown's system. Nor did we see the benefit of scoring more points under Brown's system. Looking for the difference?

Doesn't take rocket science.

It's defensive prowess that grew during Brown's tenure.

Plain and simple. Show me an analyst anywhere who wouldn't attribute the Pistons's success to strong defensive play and unselfishness. These are principles that have existed since Carlisle was the coach. We have never got any respect for our offensive talents....until now. :)

So if a stagnent offense is one that has difficulty putting points on the board. I would say that both teams had that problem. And any formula you throw together has no substance because the results have not had a statistical influence on offensive production.

Oh, yeah, and if your team has a problem putting points on the board consistently...that DOES lead to scoring droughts.

I heard on the radio earlier this week about a statistical measure that is gaining popularity in the league. It is points per possession. It gets to the heart of what you seek. Total offensive efficiency "irregardless" of offensive style. It is effected by FG%, TO, FT% & 3pt%. I presume an offensive board creates a new possession. I believe it was developed by whoever runs the 82 game stat website.

Don't overanalyze data that may simply be skewed early by some hot shooting nights by a few teams. .

My opinion is that there have been too many teams having hot shooting nights against us. Moreover, opposing big men tend to have season highs against us.

Also Brown's offense wasn't stagnant...it was predictable. In the playoffs, they knew what was going to happen so we basically had to out-execute them on a given set to get a good look.

That is a good stat. I think there is one stat that has more meaning though. That is points per possession scored minus points per possession allowed. This way we can compare Flip vs. LB in a meanigfull way. Basically it boils down to "our we winning by a bigger margin on average?" The points per possession stat doesn't have much meaning if we can't determine the net gain or loss when comparing the two teams.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing about comparing O to D. To have an even more comprehensive tool I think it would have to be used in conjunction with the differential for number of possessions. Helps to know if greater efficiency is required or more possessions.
I like the fact that by offering a relative measurement against our peers it can be used to determine which side of the ball is likely to generate greater net improvement.

My opinion is that there have been too many teams having hot shooting nights against us. Moreover, opposing big men tend to have season highs against us.

My problem is that I never really know if the other team is shooting particularly hot or our defense is not so particularly hot that night. It is the same with the big men: if too many have season highs against us, maybe our big men are not defending them as well as we think they are.

When these things happen a lot, methinks :confused: we need to find the actual cause for them.

i'm not sure if this is the sort of thing y'all are looking for (these various statistical categories tend to confuse me more than anything), but according to 82games.com, Pistons points per 100 possessions (for and against) over the past four seasons:

Pist. Opp.
2005-2006: 114 to 103
2004-2005: 105 to 101
2003-2004: 103 to 96
2002-2003: 107 to 103

Dayam, thats seems like a huge increase. I'll make it a point to check back and see how 05-06 changes with additional games. Thanks for the data.

excellent! That is an excellent comparison.

03-4pt. diff
04-7pt. diff
05-4pt. diff
06 so far 11pt. diff

i'm glad this particular stat was useful...

another useful one, for shedding some light on some of the debates i've seen in the forum about what particular players (and rotations) are providing and costing the team when they are out there can be found here:

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506DET.HTM

just click on the "5 man unit" link on the left hand side of the page.

As with all of their "in depth team" stats, you can go here: http://82games.com/teams04.htm to see the 2004-05 stats, and also to find your way to the 03-04 and 02-03 stats.

apologies if all of this is already well known -- i couldn't find it anywhere on the forum