Garrity doesn't start.
But if Battie keeps the transsistion from loser to winner smooth I guess it's cool.

we are winning without ben wallace. how come orlando can't win without d. howard.

oh c'mon...they might snag a game here or there but without howard they're lottery bound. we can win without ben because our starters have played together for years and ben was less effective in flip's system anyway.

those leads open up in the 4th quarter too. the bench isn't in at that tmie. we are winning without ben wallace. how come orlando can't win without d. howard. darko could step into the starting lineup just like nazr has stepped up into our starting lineup.
D. Howard is the only legitimate all-star on that team right now. Comparing Orlando's supporting 4 to Detroit's is kinda dumb...honestly. 17.1 pts and 13.6 boards a game is a huge gap to fill.



you watching a game is all it took to show you that numbers don't tell the whole picture. like you yourself said darko has the tools. he isn't a starter and he often is the 3rd or 4th option on orlando so he defers. there will come at some point in his career when he doesn't have to.

How bout' I tell you what I got from the game instead of you guessing at it to prove your point. I said that Darko has good fundamentals but so do many other players in the league. If you are going to take my points..don't conveniently take out the rest of my statements to support your cause. What part of Darko doesn't have good offensive instincts don't you understand? Kwame Brown has great tools but that hasn't translated to much has it? Darko already has the opportunity to be the first option off the bench scoring, but he doesn't do it. Why would he do it in a starting role. Like I said he looks akward, sometimes darn near goofy.


let d. howard get a minor injury and darko has to step into the starting lineup and carry offensive load. he's put up 18 points a game easy.

But what happens to the rest of his game. Can he put it all together? I doubt it.



be happy that you are learning how great the guy really is and can be. he is only 21 remember. no need for you to make him worse than he really is. the type of mess you are saying about him is what got him in orlando coming off the bench dominating while we have dale davis coming off the bench.

Actually I think my take on him was pretty fair. It just isn't embelished with all the fandom you surround with his existence. You are completely unable to look at him objectively. He'll never be the player you think he will become bballjay. But even then you won't accept it, you'll come up with another excuse.

Never fails...any excitement I might feel for this kid's development you make me resent by your unyielding and most times unrealistic opinion that Darko is destined to be the best player in the league regardless of anything that says otherwise.

Rather than quote the previous posts, I will respectfully disagree with those who say that Darko is and was just "on the floor" in the fourth quarter. That is when he has been shining for the past several games.


I'm the only one who said that lazy and it was in the context of offensive involvement. His contribution on the court is 80% defensive (maybe higher) in my opinion. He doesn't hurt the offense, but he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary to help it either.

Well, I think this topic has run its course for me.

Its obvious that Darko-ites see Darko as the MVP of the magic regardless of what is seen on the court. The fact that none of you can ever come up with any weaknesses in his game tells a compelling story.

Continue your love fest. The next full review you get from me will be in a Pistons centric thread. I'm wasting my energy going into this amount of detail about a role player and a team that will most likey lose in the first round.

His contribution on the court is 80% defensive (maybe higher) in my opinion. He doesn't hurt the offense, but he isn't doing anything out of the ordinary to help it either.


Mo, I really don't want to continue to beat a dead horse and I realize that you are getting frustrated by continuing to state your argument that Darko is good, but not as good as we are making him out to be.

But I need to respond to the 80% defense comment. When Darko is on the court, the Magic score 4.8 more points per 100 possessions. And, when he is on the court, they allow 3.7 less points per 100 possessions. So, if you use those numbers, then his contribution would be weighted 56% offensive and 44% defensive. Since defense can create offense, maybe it is more like 50/50.

He has got to be leading the league in screens set. Maybe that accounts for some of it. The rest may be that he draws attention when he posts up, even if they don't throw him the ball.

I'm actually about Darko'd out as well. I just like arguing with stats.

I should take a break and go play some basketball myself. Talk about looking awkward in the post...

Moving to NBA forum...

This more about Darko and the play of the Magic than it is about our pick at this time.


Isn't that directly related to the status of our pick?

This is no indictment of anyone, but there looks to be a serious market for an Orlando Magic forum. I've seen Magic Madness, and technologically at least, it has nothing on us.

This is no indictment of anyone, but there looks to be a serious market for an Orlando Magic forum. I've seen Magic Madness, and technologically at least, it has nothing on us.

Considering a name change to Pistons/MagicForum.com?

Considering a name change to Pistons/MagicForum.com?


With all of the posts, maybe the Magic should expand to having it's own Sub-Forum instead of just a thread?:)

I don't have the data, but it seems like people were much more active on the Piston's forums when we were the underdogs who didn't get the respect that we felt like we deserved.

The Magic fans probably feel that way now. And a lot of us Piston fans who are sticking up for them are doing it because it seemed like they/Darko/ and Carlos were being unduly bashed. As a team is waxing, every little aspect can be analyzed. Remember how we would argue every little point when the Pistons would win by 20 last year? But when a team is waning, then there comes a point when everyone says, aw screw it, let's rebuild. The Pistons are not there yet, but are flirting with that "can't possibly win a championship with the current personel" threshold.

Like I said, it's not about anyone in particular, I like that there is heavy discussion on non-Pistons but still basketball topics. Diversity makes things great (to quote brofmfa).

I don't think the criticisms in Detroit of Arroyo and Darko were completely wrong.

Carlos is much better with freedom to over dribble the ball and call his own number. He's not good at playing within a structured system. It's not just LB and Flip, it was Jerry Sloan too. That's THREE HOF coaches (assuming Flip gets in after we win a title this year).

Darko did not have a lot of bright moments in Detroit. A lack of playing time, absolutely, but so many times when he did take the court, even in his second year, the energy and enthusiasm was missing. Garbage time or not, fans of the Pistons expect more from what should be a hungry player looking to make his mark (cue Ben is a malcontent, Rasheed is lazy comments :rolleyes: ).

I think one thing is obvious now. Darko can play. It still remains to be seen what his ceiling in the league is, and he is on a young team that has a lot of guys still trying to find their way. But we still do have Amir Johnson, who I think, in very limited minutes, has shown a potential greater than we have even seen from Darko in Orlando. The ability to make incredible plays at both ends with his athleticism, and the capacity to score in bunches.

I don't understand why all of the knowledgeable fans who have followed Darko religiously in Detroit, and defended his experience here, do not take up for AJ who also gets almost no minutes, and has shown just as much raw razzle dazzle and ability particularly when he has not made an issue of his lack of opportunities.

I don't understand why all of the knowledgeable fans who have followed Darko religiously in Detroit, and defended his experience here, do not take up for AJ who also gets almost no minutes, and has shown just as much raw razzle dazzle and ability particularly when he has not made an issue of his lack of opportunities.
Preach it brotha!

Excellent post.

In a way, we are sticking up for AJ. The theme here is that you gotta play a guy to know what you have. Just because a coach doesn't play somebody doesn't mean they suck. Sometimes coaches are more concerned with the short-run than the medium-run.

AJ, JMax, Dup, Blaylock, Acker, Samb... all these guys should be incorporated one at a time with players who already know what they're doing in real game situations. Flip won't do it. Maybe I'd be posting about how great AJ is if I though there was any hope that he would get a chance this year. But there is really not much hope. To me, the DM situation is one that we have to try to avoid going forward.

Last game, the Orlando bench outscore their starters. And their starters were DHo, Nelson, Turk, Grant Hill, and Battie. That's a great starting line-up, and yet the bench was given room to do damage. Brian Hill gives his players a chance to fail. He gives them confidence and lets them play through mistakes.

That is what I want with the Pistons. Let's see what we have.

Also, the Magic are reportedly getting a lot of interest in their bench from other teams. So, not only have they kept their starters fresh and won games, but they have increased the trade value of their bench players. They are managing their portfolio better than JD is.

I don't understand why all of the knowledgeable fans who have followed Darko religiously in Detroit, and defended his experience here, do not take up for AJ who also gets almost no minutes, and has shown just as much raw razzle dazzle and ability particularly when he has not made an issue of his lack of opportunities.

Simple, no one is bashing him, no need to defend him. But, I do think he will be a player one day, just not in Detroit.

I'd also like to see Amir (JMax) show a little more hunger towards getting PT. You didn't see Darko or Delfino content to stay on the bench. I want players demanding pt. I want guys with the confidence and drive to say "play me or trade me" because they know they have the talent to play for anybody.

Show me a guy happy not to play, and I'll show you a guy who can't.

I don't understand why all of the knowledgeable fans who have followed Darko religiously in Detroit, and defended his experience here, do not take up for AJ who also gets almost no minutes, and has shown just as much raw razzle dazzle and ability particularly when he has not made an issue of his lack of opportunities.
This is plain simple- we wasted our #2 pick for Darko (while we waisted because he didn't play, not because he isn't good) while AJ could be a nice steal at #56. Still, I'd love to see way more of AJ.

@TaShawn - despite the early success of the Magic, I don't think anyone can make an argument that the Magic's starters are better than Detroit's. They are in uncharted territory, a young team experiencing it's first real feeding of success. Detroit has a much smaller margin for error, with no big seat draw after the loss of Wallace, and lacks the ethnic support the Magic get from Carlos Arroyo.

I love your stats work and conclusions. It's the purest form of passion. But let's not retire Detroit to the glue factory and crown the Magic champions or Darko 6MOY less than 20 games into the season.

@16mile - I agree that the kids should be anxious to play. I believe you show this in practice, garbage time, the weight room, summer league and any other time you get an opportunity to showcase your talent.

The no one is bashing him is a bit weak however. The issue many of the Darko detractors had was how he responded when he did get opportunities which was very inconsistent emotionally. Sometimes good, frequently poor and on a rare occassion, very impressive.

Darko by virtue of his draft position had some trade clout. These guys do not. Maxiell and Johnson are almost worthless in trade only because of the rookie scale contract values.

None of these guys are happy not to play. It's what they are willing to do BESIDES demand a trade that speaks volumes about their work ethic and character.

This is plain simple- we wasted our #2 pick for Darko (while we waisted because he didn't play, not because he isn't good) while AJ could be a nice steal at #56. Still, I'd love to see way more of AJ.
Yes, but (and I realize not everyone is as money-geeky as I am) Amir Johnson could end up being the better value down the line, only because of the contract Darko is all-but guaranteed to get next year. I'm talking about his qualifying (minimum) offer.

Turning Darko into a lower cost pick (thanks to the success of the Magic) gives us an excellent opportunity to grab an affordable player to develop along a timeline that will better coincide with the decline of our starters.

Turning Darko into a lower cost pick (thanks to the success of the Magic) gives us an excellent opportunity to grab an affordable player to develop along a timeline that will better coincide with the decline of our starters.
You're one of the guys that always see half- full glasses, are you? :)
I could have never imagined to see any positive aspects of having such a probably high pick for Darko AND Arroyo. I still hope the Magic will do worse as the season goes on and I'm not expecting much from a pick in the 20's.
Also, I think Sheed and CB (if he'll still be here) are going to decline next season and definetely in 2 years. And you can develop a player right now, too, but no ones seems to be interested in doing so.

@TaShawn - despite the early success of the Magic, I don't think anyone can make an argument that the Magic's starters are better than Detroit's. They are in uncharted territory, a young team experiencing it's first real feeding of success. Detroit has a much smaller margin for error, with no big seat draw after the loss of Wallace, and lacks the ethnic support the Magic get from Carlos Arroyo.

I love your stats work and conclusions. It's the purest form of passion. But let's not retire Detroit to the glue factory and crown the Magic champions or Darko 6MOY less than 20 games into the season.


I agree, the Detroit starters are better. However, the Magic bench more than makes up for it. Maybe ours would too if they were given a chance. But maybe not. Who knows when they don't play?

If I had to bet money on it, I would not bet on the Magic having a better record or doing better in the Playoffs than the Pistons this year. Both teams are good. However, 1 is on the rise, and 1 is on the decline. If you are on the rise and not good enough, then you keep ploughing ahead. But if you are on the decline and not good enough, then it's a dead-end.

What I am suggesting is that we need to go to the mine (the bench) and see if there is any gold there. If there isn't any, then we need to make a trade.

Yes, but (and I realize not everyone is as money-geeky as I am) Amir Johnson could end up being the better value down the line, only because of the contract Darko is all-but guaranteed to get next year. I'm talking about his qualifying (minimum) offer.

amir could also end up lost to another team just like darko was. he isn't complaining like darko but he does get to play in the nbdl sometime darko just sat for years. amir also wasn't a # 2 pick getting ragged on in the press by his coach and members of the media with no oppurtunity to show what he has. i think darko's attitude was great at the start but when he realized he'd never get a chance in detroit it changed.

darko used to hit the court every couple weeks for 2 minutes of game time action. yeah he looked inconsistent. he's sure looking consistently good on defense in orlando with consistent minutes. i defend darko because it needs to happen he's made into a villain for wanting a chance. there's no reason to defend amir because nobody is claiming he sucks just because the coach doesn't play him.

i do think however that amir and jmax have looked great yet we play dale davis instead.


Turning Darko into a lower cost pick (thanks to the success of the Magic) gives us an excellent opportunity to grab an affordable player to develop along a timeline that will better coincide with the decline of our starters.

great way to spin losing a great pf/c prospect and one of the best backup point guards inthe league. if we had developed darko we wouldn't have to worry about our decline. he would have stepped in right for ben this year and we'd be talking about how great he is in a piston uniform. amir and jmax would still be here to coincide with the decline of sheed and dice.

also the criticisms of darko and arroyo could also be criticisms of the coach of not using thier players to thier strengths. while arroyo may not have ran the plays the coach wanted the way he wanted he's much more effective than lindsey no matter what play you run.

sure darko didn't show enthusiasm for his monthly 6 minutes after the game has been decided. the coaches should have tried another method to get production out of the # 2 pick instead of making him "earn" it in garbage time only. now darko is shutting down teams in the 4th quarter crunch time for the magic. is b. hill a better coach than lb, flip?? how could he get this much production and drive from a guy we couldn't get to play for us. it's simply called motivation reward a player for his effort and you'll get effort.

Orlando opens up leads because Orlando's bench is superior to the other team's bench. You are really kidding yourself if you think that team wins without Dwight.

I've seen all the Pistons you mentioned explode for big games so of course I know they can do it if given the shots.

You've never seen Darko explode for points. In fact I find it hard to believe that given the number of games he's played so far that there was never a call for such an "impressive" offensive player to score. It would only take about 10-12 attempts for him to get some respectable offensive numbers. You've already said that he is called upon to lead the offense of the second unit. Umm...where is it? You describe Darko as this incredible orchestrator of the offense but he has no numbers to support this. Brad Miller, Boris Diaw and Chris Webber are great passers out of the post and the numbers reflect it. So if he ain't passing to create easy buckets and he ain't scoring on offense..sounds like he's being very nonchalant on the offensive end. Which all means that I don't buy your arguement. Simply because Darko's showed me nothing to back up what you are saying. Take away your other rants on Darko's abilities and he really has noone talking about his offensive skills that much. I can't go off your gutt because you think Darko craps gold.

Show me the money!

Be happy that he is a great contributor to the team. No need for you to make him better than he really is. That's the type of thinking that got him into this mess in the first place. If he matures to something greater... fine. But right now he is what he is. A game changing defender, with good fundamentals and an uninspired rebounding/offensive game. He fits a role in Orlando and does it well.

What you are saying is simply wrong. If you watched all the Orlando games, you would understand. If Darko goes out of the game in the 4th quarter, the Orlando team falls apart. Can't score, can't defend. Thats a fact. In my opinion, from watching closely, its no coincidence at all. Darko is challenging a very high percentage of shots, very effectively, so the defense end is pretty obvious. The stats show thru very strongly, other teams flat out score less if Darko is on the floor. And no, it does not matter if its the other team's starters or subs, Darko is taller and quicker than them all, so it does not really matter.

On offense, its not so obvious. All I can say is look a little closer. You will see an extremely quick post up player managing to get good post up position very early in the posession. And he receives the ball, as he is ready. (And has such length that its pretty much impossible to deny him the ball in the post.) Then he either scores or makes a sharp pass to help setup an alternate play. A guy like Brad Miller can make a pass out of the post too, buts its hardly as effective as Darko doing the same thing. Brad Miller has precious little post up ability, so defenses don't have to scramble so hard to defend Brad Miller being in the post.

The offense goes thru Darko a lot in those 4th quarters, and it works alot. And when its not going thru him, Darko is out setting a pick. As he has tremendous quicks for a big, he is very effective at it. Watch a little more carefully, you will see that Darko helps his team score more effectively than Howard. And between Howard and Darko, its Darko you can't leave open, because he will nail the outside shot.

To be fair to Howard, he is out there too in many of the big surges by Orlando. But again, the big surges happen game after game in those 4th quarters, whether or not Howard is in the game. Ditto for Hill.

Also, to be fair, its not just Darko. A very good defender, sitting out there by himself, is pretty worthless, as the other team will just keep the ball away from that defender. Trevor Ariza is an excellent defender, and Arroyo plays pretty solid D too. As does Bogans and Dooling. Basically, Orlando has its best defenders playing from the bench. In this setting, Darko's very good defense makes a great difference. And the offense, its not going to run well regardless of what Darko does, unless you have a guy our there like Arroyo helping to run the show.

great way to spin losing a great pf/c prospect and one of the best backup point guards inthe league. if we had developed darko we wouldn't have to worry about our decline. he would have stepped in right for ben this year and we'd be talking about how great he is in a piston uniform. amir and jmax would still be here to coincide with the decline of sheed and dice. 100% true. There is nothing more to say.

Here is another lingering source of my frustration.

If the Pistons didn't want Darko or Arroyo, couldn't we have showcased them a little bit before sending them out and gotten something much better in return than an unknown draft pick and an expiring contract? Instead, they were ridiculed and benched before the trade. You gotta shampoo your horses before taking them to the auction.

The Magic probably would have added players like Nelson or Ariza to the deal.

All I ever wanted was a 5-10 year dynasty. Is that too much to ask for?

@16mile - I agree that the kids should be anxious to play. I believe you show this in practice, garbage time, the weight room, summer league and any other time you get an opportunity to showcase your talent.

this method is also easier for a more selfish player. when a guy is a team player and excels during team situations it's harder to shine in garbage time or summer league. darko did excel in world leagues, preseason, weight room yet it didn't garner him more playing time.


The no one is bashing him is a bit weak however. The issue many of the Darko detractors had was how he responded when he did get opportunities which was very inconsistent emotionally. Sometimes good, frequently poor and on a rare occassion, very impressive.

how can you defend a guy that everybody agrees on is a great talent??? when did darko get an oppurtunity?? do you call what jmax and amir got this year as an oppurtunity did it earn them any more minutes?? there is no oppurtunity in detroit that's what this talk about darko really is about deep deep down. we need to change that.

yes. darko should have tried his hardest to be the best human victory cigar he could have been for larry.


None of these guys are happy not to play. It's what they are willing to do BESIDES demand a trade that speaks volumes about their work ethic and character.

well what will they do when they figure out that nothing they try to do to get minutes in detroit is working??? they will demand a trade just like darko and fino.

it speaks volumes to me about darko and delfino that they both said stop the piston bs either play me or trade me.

it speaks volumes to me about darko and delfino that they both said stop the piston bs either play me or trade me.
I agree with Flip's latest interview. Dale Davis, Nazr Mohammed and Delfino will all play based upon their effort and results.

Delfino has played with a high motor, and as a consequence, achieved better results. That has earned him more playing time.

Notice, it all started with the player maximizing his opportunities. It wasn't Flip caving in, it was Delfino coming around.

Great discusson btw guys. I'm enjoying this, but if you fellas get me all tongue twised and posting to myself like Motown, I might have to withdraw. I'm already hanging on by a very thin thread. :pound:

Here is another lingering source of my frustration.

If the Pistons didn't want Darko or Arroyo, couldn't we have showcased them a little bit before sending them out and gotten something much better in return than an unknown draft pick and an expiring contract? Instead, they were ridiculed and benched before the trade. You gotta shampoo your horses before taking them to the auction.
The Pistons are not like the Magic. They won't spend big bucks to build a team. They are trying to strike gold on the cheap. That is why (much to my chagrin), they did not get anything for Darko, Arroyo OR WALLACE! or Kelvin Cato...

The Magic probably would have added players like Nelson or Ariza to the deal.
If you add Ariza, you already have Delfino.... Only one can play (witness the Mo Evans fiasco), and the guy who doesn't play has little value.

All I ever wanted was a 5-10 year dynasty. Is that too much to ask for?
I think it can still happen. You have to forgive Joe for the Darko mistakes of the past, and look forward with a bright smile to the future of Amir Johnson, Will Blalock, Jason Maxiell, Tayshaun Prince and at least 2 more young players, yet to be named...

I agree with Flip's latest interview. Dale Davis, Nazr Mohammed and Delfino will all play based upon their effort and results.

Delfino has played with a high motor, and as a consequence, achieved better results. That has earned him more playing time.

Notice, it all started with the player maximizing his opportunities. It wasn't Flip caving in, it was Delfino coming around.


delfino has also played more and he's played better. he's better when he gets more time on the court. i think this is flip caving in or joe d saying play fino or else. delfino is the same player it's just he's on the court now. the pistons from the top told flip to actually give oppurtunities and maybe somebody will surprise you and delfino did just that. now it's jmax's or amir's turn for an oppurtunity.

why isn't flip murray or lindsey playing based on effort and results???


If you add Ariza, you already have Delfino.... Only one can play (witness the Mo Evans fiasco), and the guy who doesn't play has little value.

yet b. hill finds time for hill, dooling, ariza and turk.


I think it can still happen. You have to forgive Joe for the Darko mistakes of the past, and look forward with a bright smile to the future of Amir Johnson, Will Blalock, Jason Maxiell, Tayshaun Prince and at least 2 more young players, yet to be named...

i'll agree to forgive if joe and flip man up and admit they are giving our young guys a raw deal. it isn't good for the young players and it's not what's best for the team in the long run. we need to see that we have made mistakes in order to correct them. how can these guys have a future with the pistons if they see no oppurtunity with the pistons. i see a lot more of us being the farm system for other teams in the league.

OK, I'm on board. Joe is hereby forgiven if he gets me another ring before 2009.

great way to spin losing a great pf/c prospect and one of the best backup point guards inthe league. if we had developed darko we wouldn't have to worry about our decline. he would have stepped in right for ben this year and we'd be talking about how great he is in a piston uniform. amir and jmax would still be here to coincide with the decline of sheed and dice.
Well, I don't think the Pistons planned to lose Wallace. If they did, they wouldn't have offered the Mid Level Exception to Flip Murray. We're lucky he turned it down so that we could offer it to Pryzbilla for 24 hours then settle on Mohammed.

If anything, this proves that it is possible to outplan yourself and build a house of cards that can easily fall down.

And it's not spin. Let's assume you are willing to accept that the Pistons are cheap. Ben was making less than Darko will be offered as a minimum by Orlando after this season. The Pistons would have had to pony up big cash, at the same time that Billups' would become a free agent.

Keeping Darko (and Arroyo's 4 million a year) while re-signing Chauncey would put this team in a position that it would not be able to add more talent. We would be capped out trying to do so.

Like it or not, Detroit is a victim of it's own success with Tayshaun, Rip, Sheed and soon Chauncey all scheduled to make more than the average NBA player, and with Darko signing for at least $7 million (and more likely $9 or $10) to start, that would give the Pistons one of the most expensive starting units outside of New Jersey or New York.

Off the top of my head

Rip $10 million
Tay $9 million
Sheed $12 million
Chauncey $14 million
Darko $8 million

That's $53 million of what will probably be a $56 million cap. Add in Arroyo's $4 million, and you are capped out. With SIX PLAYERS!

But wait! You are still on the hook for Dice's contract (he has a trade kicker/spoiler), as well as Delfino and Maxiell (forget everyone else).

That's another $10 million dollars. Now you are at $67 million. That's pretty much the tax level for 9 players. You know that you have first round picks to sign, and without Darko/Arroyo the Magic are possibly not playoff contenders. So every dollar you pay those incoming rooks, as well as Amir Johnson and Will Blalock is taxed at double.

The worst part is the only contract that comes off the books down the line is Antonio McDyess. And his $6.5 million is eaten up in incremental raises to everyone else.

This is cap hell. For an aging team with Darko.

I didn't make the comment just as spin. I dream this stuff all the time. The NBA is a business first.

Great discusson btw guys. I'm enjoying this, but if you fellas get me all tongue twised and posting to myself like Motown, I might have to withdraw. I'm already hanging on by a very thin thread. :pound:

You are so mean. lol.

Lee, you're wrong. That's all I'll say. :tape2:

delfino has also played more and he's played better. he's better when he gets more time on the court. i think this is flip caving in or joe d saying play fino or else. delfino is the same player it's just he's on the court now. the pistons from the top told flip to actually give oppurtunities and maybe somebody will surprise you and delfino did just that.
If Delfino plays poorly, and Flip sits him, this will test your theory.

why isn't flip murray or lindsey playing based on effort and results???
They are both part of the Pistons' small ball lineups which have been ultra productive. And no one can ever say Lindsey doesn't play without effort. But seriously, Hunter is +13 on a small unit, which wins it's matchup to matchup battle 100% of the time.

Detroit Pistons top five man units data from 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0607/0607DET2.HTM)

You should study that. Certain lineups are very productive. Hunter, Delfino and Murray all perform well under the right conditions. Unfortunately Nazr Mohammed does not.

Ros- thats a good analysis. A lot had changed since Darko was picked on draft night. Sheed came along, I think Dumars was counting Prince and Okur signing for around 6-7mil/yr. Add in an extra 3 mil for Prince and Sheeds contract.

Win a championship and all those solid guys that were making 5-6mil/yr, you know Dumars old strategy, become worth a lot more.

Orlando is no lock to re-sign Darko this summer. Some team out there is going to think he is worth a 5 yr 50 mil contract. Chandler got around 10 mil/yr based on some of the potential he was showing.

Unfortunatly the business end does factor in. I don't know of many other teams that can have 5 starters making around or over 10mil/yr that we were headed to and still field a solid bench. San does not do it, PHX does not, Miami does not, Lakers always have some cheap starters.

Well, I don't think the Pistons planned to lose Wallace. If they did, they wouldn't have offered the Mid Level Exception to Flip Murray. We're lucky he turned it down so that we could offer it to Pryzbilla for 24 hours then settle on Mohammed.

i don't think the pistons planned to lose wallace either that's why joe traded exactly what we need right now. we needed a defensive center/pf and a backup pg. watch which trades joe makes this year it will be for a pg or a pf.


And it's not spin. Let's assume you are willing to accept that the Pistons are cheap. Ben was making less than Darko will be offered as a minimum by Orlando after this season. The Pistons would have had to pony up big cash, at the same time that Billups' would become a free agent.


Keeping Darko (and Arroyo's 4 million a year) while re-signing Chauncey would put this team in a position that it would not be able to add more talent. We would be capped out trying to do so.

well that's assuming we don't make any other moves besides signing darko and chauncey. that's also assuming chauncey and darko weren't willing to sign for less than market value. we could trade our picks away. lindsey didn't have to get resigned. we could have traded dale davis. we could have traded either chauncey or arroyo for smaller pieces that could in turn be traded easier.


Like it or not, Detroit is a victim of it's own success with Tayshaun, Rip, Sheed and soon Chauncey all scheduled to make more than the average NBA player, and with Darko signing for at least $7 million (and more likely $9 or $10) to start, that would give the Pistons one of the most expensive starting units outside of New Jersey or New York.

Off the top of my head

Rip $10 million
Tay $9 million
Sheed $12 million
Chauncey $14 million
Darko $8 million

That's $53 million of what will probably be a $56 million cap. Add in Arroyo's $4 million, and you are capped out. With SIX PLAYERS!

This is cap hell. For an aging team with Darko.


only sheed and chauncey qualify as aging. they could have both been moved. it is a business so it makes more sense to pay darko for 5 years of increased improvement. than to pay these older players for 4 years of decline.

Unfortunatly the business end does factor in. I don't know of many other teams that can have 5 starters making around or over 10mil/yr that we were headed to and still field a solid bench. San does not do it, PHX does not, Miami does not, Lakers always have some cheap starters.

those other teams also have 1 or 2 superstars locking up all the money. so it is ok to surround them with role players. joe dumars has a different style of team building.

bball jay

I'm assuming that the Pistons would not do anything else besides re-sign Darko and Chauncey because it would make the picture I painted EVEN WORSE!!!

Players do not sign for less than market value as a rule.

So it's not just an assumption, it's based on some fact.

Picks have no monetary value in trade. We could sell them. Are you suggesting that in order to keep Darko, the Pistons should have been willing to consider selling it's draft picks?

We could have traded Dale Davis. You are right. But I didn't even include him, or Lindsey in my calulations. They are also being taxed dollar for dollar. And if you trade a player, you have to take back salary or a salary marker which is also taxed, so trading Dale, who has a short term deal doesn't get us anything financially.

Also, it would mean Darko would have no backup. We would have 3 bigs and no injury depth.

We couldn't trade Chauncey (easily) because like Dice, he has a trade kicker.

Similar to Dale, trading Carlos does nothing for us. We have to take back salary or a salary marker and pay the tax.

Financially, we had to trade Darko. Especially if we kept Ben, and probably even if we could have waited until later.

Unless he became a franchise player this season, it would be hard to justify paying him that much money on a team that has a lot of committed salary.

those other teams also have 1 or 2 superstars locking up all the money. so it is ok to surround them with role players. joe dumars has a different style of team building.

Point was that the championship changed that plan.

Sheed and the emergence of Tayshaun in the championship year are the key reasons we couldn't sign Darko. Not Ben.

I really hope the Magic just miss the playoffs so we can get a pick from the lottery. #6 would be perfect.... :stirthepot:

bball jay

I'm assuming that the Pistons would not do anything else besides re-sign Darko and Chauncey because it would make the picture I painted EVEN WORSE!!!

Players do not sign for less than market value as a rule.

So it's not just an assumption, it's based on some fact.

Picks have no monetary value in trade. We could sell them. Are you suggesting that in order to keep Darko, the Pistons should have been willing to consider selling it's draft picks?

We could have traded Dale Davis. You are right. But I didn't even include him, or Lindsey in my calulations. They are also being taxed dollar for dollar. And if you trade a player, you have to take back salary or a salary marker which is also taxed, so trading Dale, who has a short term deal doesn't get us anything financially.

Also, it would mean Darko would have no backup. We would have 3 bigs and no injury depth.

We couldn't trade Chauncey (easily) because like Dice, he has a trade kicker.

Similar to Dale, trading Carlos does nothing for us. We have to take back salary or a salary marker and pay the tax.

Financially, we had to trade Darko. Especially if we kept Ben, and probably even if we could have waited until later.

Unless he became a franchise player this season, it would be hard to justify paying him that much money on a team that has a lot of committed salary.

Tay certainly could have gotten a bigger paycheck. Ditto for Sheed. Nope, players don't always go for the biggest money they can find.

If Delfino plays poorly, and Flip sits him, this will test your theory.


If Murray plays poorly, and Delfino plays well, and Delfino gets sat, that will prove my theory.


Which si, Flip doesnt base pt on production, he bases it on some obsessive compulsive idea of who he thinks is better, regardless of who actually plays better (see Mo Evans, 2005/6).

If Murray plays poorly, and Delfino plays well, and Delfino gets sat, that will prove my theory.


Which si, Flip doesnt base pt on production, he bases it on some obsessive compulsive idea of who he thinks is better, regardless of who actually plays better (see Mo Evans, 2005/6).

I like that YOU called Flip obsessive compulsive!

As for the subject of this thread, I hope the Magic start tanking pretty soon. I would also like to see a number 6 pick for the Pistons. Also, if their season falls apart, I can come back and do the "I told you so's" to the Magic fans.

The statistical profile of a title team - NBA - NBCSports.com (http://www.nbcsports.com/nba/476845/detail.html)

Article that basically says that the Magic have the characteristics of a potential Champ when you compare them to past Champs.

I don't know how many of you watch college bball, but this year's draft might be very very deep. The freshman class this year is as good as I have ever seen and it was evident when I watched the UNC/Ohio State game. The game featured 7 or 8 freshman that all could play in the NBA one day. Oden didn't even play in the game, he was sitting with injury. I think that this freshman class is 15 - 20 players deep and if 1/2 of them decide to turn pro we should be able to pick up 2 young talented kids we could use down the road. At the very least tradeable assets..

I think that we should draft a point guard (insurance if billups bolts) and possibly a big guy. However, I have a lot of confidence in Amir and JMax (more so for Amir) and I want to see them both get a ton of minutes..

I bet Fino could run the point just fine. Get AJ or Brahma off the bench.

I bet Fino could run the point just fine. Get AJ or Brahma off the bench.

I think he would be ADEQUATE as a backup, but I don't think he can defend the position. He can make the passes and get the ball to the guys that need it, but I don't see him being quick enough to defend the speedy little PGs, although I can't really say that I'm too impressed by Chauncey's defensive play this season either.

He's 6'6". I'll take his size any day at PG.

He's 6'6". I'll take his size any day at PG.

Honestly, ANYONE is better than seeing Lindsay Hunter "running" the PG spot. Damn is he a BAD PG. He is a situational defender, that's it. Hunter doesn't run plays, he just jacks up shots.

I wouldn't mind getting Will Blalock about 5-8 minutes a night to "try him out". I'm sure FLIP SAUNDERS won't though. He has had the same problem since he arrived, HE HAS NO SPINE.

Flip coaches "scared", he doesn't trust his bench (unless they are over the hill veterans, or his pet players). Flip is clueless as a motivator of young talent. I can imagine that none of our young players actually "believe" they have a shot to "earn" minutes.

Lenz has been in the league 15 years. He won a ring with the Lakers 4 years ago. His best year he averaged 12.9 pts. I thought he was improving but he hurt his ankle again.

Six straight wins by the Magic tonight as they win on a last second hoop by Grant Hill with 1.2 seconds left in Portland. Showdown next Friday in Orlando with the Pistons after the Mavs showdown on Thusday.

With Hill averaging almost 16 pts, 3 assists and 3 boards, you almost wish Joe would have taken him back in the Darko/Arroyo trade instead of the Cato expiring contract. He would have been the perfect player to lead the Pistons inconsistent second unit.

There were 2 strange stats in the Magic game tonight.

1) Darko had more shot attempts than any other player on his team... for the first time in history. Still, he didn't shoot the ball half as many times as Zach Randolph with 25 FGA's.

2) Grant Hill had 7 turnovers, which was 5 more than anyone else on his team. He did manage to win the game for them though, so that sort of makes up for it.


Darko played well on offense tonight, but he bit for the pump fake a few too many times and gave some bad fouls. Still, the strange pattern continued where the Magic blew their entire lead when they took out Darko with 6 minutes. They reinserted him with 3:30 to go and called his number in the post with 1:00 left in a tie game. He missed it.

Also, he gave a funny interview before going to the locker room at halftime. "We just want to do our best and play well and see what we can do." Darko, how are you trying to stop Zach Randolph? "We are just making it hard and he's a good player, but we just want to do our best and play well."

Ta, yes the interview was kind of funny. Two things probably helped in makingit so. One thing is he is not used to being interviewed at the half or end of games. He played so well in the first half that he was the guy to talk to going in. The talking heads were continuously commenting about how agressive he was on offense. And he was. He tried a good variety of shots and was successful on most. I think most of the misses came in the second half. I still didn't think he shot the ball that many times but they were probably right.

Second, his English is still not very good, especially when he is just a little nervous about being the center of attention, like the interview.

That was a strange game. The perimeter defense was terrible, allowing all those 3 attempts in the first half. And Zack was like a bull in a china shop. The Magic did not get any foul calls.

Carlos played well. I noticed that he dribbled that one time quite a lot but finally wound up with that beautiful wrap-around assist to D-12.

Hill with the turnovers was strange and Jameer was very ineffective, but they still pulled out a win on the road, their 7th straight, I believe, and 6 of them were on the road, according to the color men.

But that last play was really something else. I think Hill is a pretty good coach, and Hill is still a pretty good player.

Orlando is now #2 in the CNNSI power rankings. It's a little sad that we are depending on them for our draft pick.

SI.com - Writers - Marty Burns: Mavs seize top spot in Power Rankings - Monday December 4, 2006 7:29PM (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/marty_burns/12/04/power.rankings/index.html)

At least we can take matters into our own hands and beat them when we play them.

DISSPELL THE MAGIC!

Thats not what i said! :gun1: :pound:

You mean like this Cro... Amcig.
Here's the deal, we get Port. day of rest then Mavs and B2B at Or. win these 3 and don't care what happens next week. Lose to Indi., I don't care. But lay the law down on Mavs and Magic.

TaS, that's a pretty good wrap up by Burns. However if your team is below the Mendoza Line [15th] there's not much to say. Pistons need to move up about 4 notches. They will. They better or I'll have CBs head on a platter.

BREITBART.COM - Six injured in brawl at basketball game in Serbia late Tuesday (http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/cp_v120611A.xml.html)

brawl in the stands in Serbia game.

This probably doesn't fit in this thread, but it sort of relates to Darko, who relates to the Magic, who relate to our #28 draft pick next year.

http://www.hoopshype.com/interviews/milicic_nebojsa.htm (http://www.hoopshype.com/interviews/milicic_nebojsa.htm)

Here is a link to an article of an interview that Darko gave to the Serbian Press.

(I don't know how I'm supposed to credit the article, I don't want to get into trouble).

It relates to Darko, which relates to Orlando's success, which relates to our pick, right?

Here is something I found very interesting:

Is there more trust between you and your team’s management now in Orlando comparing to the years you spent in Detroit?

DM: No, I think that the level of professionalism in both organizations is the same. The one thing I didn’t understand in Detroit is that Joe Dumars (http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/joe_dumars.htm), as Detroit’s GM, didn’t want to influence the coaching decisions of Larry Brown and Flip Saunders. I just can’t buy that story that the GM is telling me that, if it is up to him, I would get more minutes, but since Flip is the coach, it’s his decision that I was benched almost all the time. Regarding Orlando, you probably know that I was offered a new four-year contract which I liked and I wanted to sign, but the very last day before the signing, they withdrew the contract. That’s all business, I know. For me, just one more reason to focus only on this year and strictly on basketball issues and leave this business side of it all aside.

So why does Dumars have a problem hiring coaches that won't play his guys? Seems that Joe can never get a coach that is on the same page as him as far as evaluating talent. I'm sure Joe wants more minutes for Delfino, but that's not happening either. Something has to be done, we can't continue to "waste" picks because the coaches don't like them. It's such a waste.

I really don't even know why we have a thread devoted to a pick that will never play in Detroit anyways.

Any of you want to weigh in on why Orlando yanked the 4 year contract offer to Darko?

Also, how's Darko been doing the past couple games? :) Can we get a play by play like we've grown accustomed to? :)

BREITBART.COM - Six injured in brawl at basketball game in Serbia late Tuesday (http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/cp_v120611A.xml.html)

brawl in the stands in Serbia game.

This probably doesn't fit in this thread, but it sort of relates to Darko, who relates to the Magic, who relate to our #28 draft pick next year.

It relates. The genius of Joe Dumars. What do you do with a #2 pick? Wait 4 years and stick a 0 at the end of it - #20.

Any of you want to weigh in on why Orlando yanked the 4 year contract offer to Darko?

Also, how's Darko been doing the past couple games? :) Can we get a play by play like we've grown accustomed to? :)

Well to be brutally honest, Darko hasn't played very well the last two games. He hasn't been bad, but he hasn't been good either.

Tonight he just never got into a rhythm and his teammates (namely Arroyo) refused to get him the ball in the lowpost. He got 2 shots off of offensive rebounds (tipped one in) and he got one shot in the lowpost off the left block, he missed a short lefty hookshot off the glass. He did get one nice post touch where he found Keith Bogans for a wide open three-pointer (but Bogans bricked badly) after Darko drew a double-team in the very low post.

He struggled a bit with the physicality of Jeff Foster tonight (as did the rest of the Magic frontcourt players). Foster, the goon that he is, got 18 rebounds on his usually grabbing and clutching.

Darko has had an average season. Lately, Arroyo has felt that he (Arroyo) is God's gift to shooting and has been a ballhog extreme. He isn't passing AT ALL. He isn't getting Dwight Howard or Darko the ball in the lowpost. The only way he involves Darko is to set screens to free himself up for jumpers. Arroyo has been a ballhog extreme. Not pretty basketball.

Darko's defense has been very good this year, but tonight he struggled a bit and made a couple dumb fouls (gave up 1 "And 1" play). He only played 14 minutes tonight and was seen icing the backside of his knee near the end of the 3rd quarter, he didn't play at all in the 4th quarter.

I'm not sure if he was injured or just tweaked something, there wasn't a play where he looked like he got hurt. He just never re-entered the game after the 3rd quarter.

Overall, a decent season for Darko. Too bad he wasn't our starting center. I would love that, but it obviously isn't happening.

Well to be brutally honest, Darko hasn't played very well the last two games. He hasn't been bad, but he hasn't been good either.

Tonight he just never got into a rhythm and his teammates (namely Arroyo) refused to get him the ball in the lowpost. He got 2 shots off of offensive rebounds (tipped one in) and he got one shot in the lowpost off the left block, he missed a short lefty hookshot off the glass. He did get one nice post touch where he found Keith Bogans for a wide open three-pointer (but Bogans bricked badly) after Darko drew a double-team in the very low post.

He struggled a bit with the physicality of Jeff Foster tonight (as did the rest of the Magic frontcourt players). Foster, the goon that he is, got 18 rebounds on his usually grabbing and clutching.

Darko has had an average season. Lately, Arroyo has felt that he (Arroyo) is God's gift to shooting and has been a ballhog extreme. He isn't passing AT ALL. He isn't getting Dwight Howard or Darko the ball in the lowpost. The only way he involves Darko is to set screens to free himself up for jumpers. Arroyo has been a ballhog extreme. Not pretty basketball.

Darko's defense has been very good this year, but tonight he struggled a bit and made a couple dumb fouls (gave up 1 "And 1" play). He only played 14 minutes tonight and was seen icing the backside of his knee near the end of the 3rd quarter, he didn't play at all in the 4th quarter.

I'm not sure if he was injured or just tweaked something, there wasn't a play where he looked like he got hurt. He just never re-entered the game after the 3rd quarter.

Overall, a decent season for Darko. Too bad he wasn't our starting center. I would love that, but it obviously isn't happening.

Sounds like your expectations have drifted back to normal. We already have a center playing average though so I think we can manage without him. :nerd2:

DMC did have three blocks in the Sac game, I believe all in the 4th quarter. Without them, Jameer's last second shot would have been anti-climatic. Before that, he seemed to be making quite a difference with the second unit, but playing against the starters, too.

I agree with jackattaq that he has been average the last couple of games. There are some people talking in the Orlando forums that he will never be much of an offensive weapon, although everybody loves his defense. The reason they are giving, and I have to agree with it in some ways, is that he is always a very low scoring option. He is always behind Dwight, Jameer, Hedo and Grant, and Carlos would rather take a miracle shot and get it blocked than dump it off to DMC, like a POINT guard would be expected to do. Did that tonight, too.

Darko seems to get almost all his touches from put backs or other rebounds, and when he does get passes from others, they do not seem to get it to him in the right places.

Things might clear up with time but who knows. They talk on the forums at times that he will not get to be a great player until sometime in the future when he is talked about in the DPOY context.

The difference between him in the way he is used here ini the NBA and how he was used in the summer championships illustrates how successfully he plays. He was the main man and carried his team quite well. He was very confident and capable, but now, in the subserviant role, seems to be just that. He passes up shots to pass to Carlos and others and sets picks all the time to get loose on pick and rolls, but he seldom gets the ball back. I keep wishing time after time that he was like Dwight, fiery and aggressive, slamming it in opponents faces. He is just not that type player. Don't know if he ever will be.

There I go again. Talk, Talk, Talk. See ya later!!

DMC did have three blocks in the Sac game, I believe all in the 4th quarter. Without them, Jameer's last second shot would have been anti-climatic. Before that, he seemed to be making quite a difference with the second unit, but playing against the starters, too.

I agree with jackattaq that he has been average the last couple of games. There are some people talking in the Orlando forums that he will never be much of an offensive weapon, although everybody loves his defense. The reason they are giving, and I have to agree with it in some ways, is that he is always a very low scoring option. He is always behind Dwight, Jameer, Hedo and Grant, and Carlos would rather take a miracle shot and get it blocked than dump it off to DMC, like a POINT guard would be expected to do. Did that tonight, too.

Darko seems to get almost all his touches from put backs or other rebounds, and when he does get passes from others, they do not seem to get it to him in the right places.

Things might clear up with time but who knows. They talk on the forums at times that he will not get to be a great player until sometime in the future when he is talked about in the DPOY context.

The difference between him in the way he is used here ini the NBA and how he was used in the summer championships illustrates how successfully he plays. He was the main man and carried his team quite well. He was very confident and capable, but now, in the subserviant role, seems to be just that. He passes up shots to pass to Carlos and others and sets picks all the time to get loose on pick and rolls, but he seldom gets the ball back. I keep wishing time after time that he was like Dwight, fiery and aggressive, slamming it in opponents faces. He is just not that type player. Don't know if he ever will be.

There I go again. Talk, Talk, Talk. See ya later!!

I can appreciate this take. I would argue that the only side we've seen at the NBA level is the one you've described as the take from the Orlando fans. I don't think this is indicative of his situation, more indicative of his lack of fire on the offensive end. Euro and summer leagues don't hold alot of weight in my opinion. That being said, I still prescribe to the thought that what we are seeing now is the real Darko. I completely agree with your last statement. There is no doubting his defensive prowess and he is in position (if he continues to improve his game...needs to get more aggressive on the boards) to make a name for himself in that manner. Oh yeah...in advance.....

...welcome back to the conversation bballjay. lol.

I can appreciate this take. I would argue that the only side we've seen at the NBA level is the one you've described as the take from the Orlando fans. I don't think this is indicative of his situation, more indicative of his lack of fire on the offensive end. Euro and summer leagues don't hold alot of weight in my opinion. That being said, I still prescribe to the thought that what we are seeing now is the real Darko. I completely agree with your last statement. There is no doubting his defensive prowess and he is in position (if he continues to improve his game...needs to get more aggressive on the boards) to make a name for himself in that manner. Oh yeah...in advance.....

...welcome back to the conversation bballjay. lol.

don't discredit the euro leagues because nba players go over there and get owned on a regular basis nowadays. darko has the ability to carry his team in the nba if called upon to do so. he also has the ability to fit in and play a role. it isn't about fire. sheed isn't a 14 and 8 rebound player but on the pistons he is cause that's his role. darko plays on a team where he gets around 5 or 6 shots per game and maybe 2 of those are when he gets his number called.

if he had a coach that called darko's play 15 times instead of allowing the guards to freelance darko would be putting up 18 points and 3 assists a game this year. even dwight doesn't get the rock sometimes in orlando so i don't think it's about offensive fire.

btw they do compliment each other very well. dwight is power, darko is finesse. dwight is inside, darko is more outside. darko is a passer, dwight is a finisher. darko is more defensive, dwight is more offensive.

With each Orlando loss, that Pistons' 2007 draft pick is looking better and better. In just the last two weeks (with the Magic losing 6 of their last 8 games), the Detroit draft pick went from #30, #29, #28, #27, #26, and now it's at #25. Keep dropping those games, boys. Much appreciated.....

With each Orlando loss, that Pistons' 2007 draft pick is looking better and better. In just the last two weeks (with the Magic losing 6 of their last 8 games), the Detroit draft pick went from #30, #29, #28, #27, #26, and now it's at #25. Keep dropping those games, boys. Much appreciated.....


and how many of those were western conference teams overtaking them and how many were eastern?

exactly.

unfortunately there are only 15 western teams who can overtake them...

A lot of people said that the magic is a brittle team. hopefully

A lot of people said that the magic is a brittle team. hopefully they'll

A lot of people said that the magic is a brittle team. hopefully they'll struggle

A lot of people said that the magic is a brittle team. hopefully they'll struggle for

A lot of people said that the magic is a brittle team. hopefully they'll struggle for a

c'mon slippy spit it out...

It's like watching Nazr in the post.

A lot of people said that the magic is a brittle team. hopefully they'll struggle for

Magic can't win with Nelson, Hill and Turkoglu all out at the same time. Arroyo and Darko are still playing. Perhaps this will illustrate that last season was more about Nelson comming off injury and dumping Francis than the acquisitions of Arroyo/Darko.

It's like watching Nazr in the post.


That was funny. :pound:

Well to be brutally honest, Darko hasn't played very well the last two games. He hasn't been bad, but he hasn't been good either.

Tonight he just never got into a rhythm and his teammates (namely Arroyo) refused to get him the ball in the lowpost. He got 2 shots off of offensive rebounds (tipped one in) and he got one shot in the lowpost off the left block, he missed a short lefty hookshot off the glass. He did get one nice post touch where he found Keith Bogans for a wide open three-pointer (but Bogans bricked badly) after Darko drew a double-team in the very low post.

He struggled a bit with the physicality of Jeff Foster tonight (as did the rest of the Magic frontcourt players). Foster, the goon that he is, got 18 rebounds on his usually grabbing and clutching.

Darko has had an average season. Lately, Arroyo has felt that he (Arroyo) is God's gift to shooting and has been a ballhog extreme. He isn't passing AT ALL. He isn't getting Dwight Howard or Darko the ball in the lowpost. The only way he involves Darko is to set screens to free himself up for jumpers. Arroyo has been a ballhog extreme. Not pretty basketball.

Darko's defense has been very good this year, but tonight he struggled a bit and made a couple dumb fouls (gave up 1 "And 1" play). He only played 14 minutes tonight and was seen icing the backside of his knee near the end of the 3rd quarter, he didn't play at all in the 4th quarter.

I'm not sure if he was injured or just tweaked something, there wasn't a play where he looked like he got hurt. He just never re-entered the game after the 3rd quarter.

Overall, a decent season for Darko. Too bad he wasn't our starting center. I would love that, but it obviously isn't happening.

I like a lot about Arroyo's game. But he has always lacked the ability to feed the post. He does not have the height nor the length to pass over or around people easily. Arroyo can get inside and get a pass to a big that cuts in at the same time. He is good at that. But getting the ball to a guy posting when the other team is trying to deny that entry pass, Arroyo just ain't too good at.

Weekly update: In the last week, the Orlando pick has moved it's way up from #25 to #24 to #23 to #22. Keep on losing, boys...

Weekly update: In the last week, the Orlando pick has moved it's way up from #25 to #24 to #23 to #22. Keep on losing, boys...

That's what I like to hear!

Bill Laimbeer and Linwood; you guys are just mean :ohwell: :lol: :icon_evil: :kleenex: !!!

Bill Laimbeer and Linwood; you guys are just mean :ohwell: :lol: :icon_evil: :kleenex: !!!

I like to think of it as joyous!

Bill Laimbeer and Linwood; you guys are just mean :ohwell: :lol: :icon_evil: :kleenex: !!!

What is mean about wanting the Pistons to have a high draft pick? This is a Pistons forum, isn't it?

Another L for the Magic... Found a Howard vodoo doll on Ebay... one toe stub coming up.

Another L for the Magic... Found a Howard vodoo doll on Ebay... one toe stub coming up.

Thank you very much. As Pistons fans, we all appreciate your efforts. :)

Haven't really read through this thread to know if this was brought up so forgive me if I tap on something already discussed.....that said, I'd rather Orlando finish with a decent record so we don't get a top pick, since Joe has screwed up ALL of them
1)Rodney+Lottery+Joe=BAd
2)Tay+Late 1st rd+Joe=Good
3)Memo+2ndrd+Joe=Good
4)Darko+Lottery+Joe=Bad
5)Max+Late 1st+Joe=Good
6)Acker=??
7)AJ=Good
8)Delf=OK
9)Blalock=??OK

What is mean about wanting the Pistons to have a high draft pick? This is a Pistons forum, isn't it?

Just kiddin', Bill. Just kiddin'

Just kiddin', Bill. Just kiddin'

Okay, I'll try not to be mean irregardless. :)

I will be rooting for the Magic to miss the playoffs, though...

That is very sweet of you Bill. You're turning into a big softie on Xmas Day!

Someone posted a link to an site which showed the current draft order for 2007 as well as projected pick, but I can't find it. Anyone have it?

NBADraft.net | Home (http://www.nbadraft.net)

thanks champ!

currently sitting at #22 and #26

I'm going to move this to our draft forum.

"Stuff", the Orlando Magic mascot (a dragon) is injured.

Shaq should give Howard his spot - Orlando Sentinel : Top Sports (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/local/orl-schmitz2606dec26,0,6308805.column?page=2&coll=orl-sports-headlines)

I wonder how this will affect team chemistry and our pick...

So here is a strange occurance...

In the Magic/Warriors game tonight, the 3 ex-Pistons combined to shoot 3-24 from the floor (16%).

Arroyo- 0 for 5
Darko- 1 for 11
Grant- 2 for 8

Dwight Howard had 30 points, almost exclusively on dunks + "and ones", and 25 rebounds. Dwight & Darko combined for 14 offensive rebounds and 5 blocked shots while holding the Warriors to 37% shooting. There was never a second without one of them in the game.


This is how the Pistons used to play. Shoot like crap and still get the win because of your defense.

So here is a strange occurance...

In the Magic/Warriors game tonight, the 3 ex-Pistons combined to shoot 3-24 from the floor (16%).

Arroyo- 0 for 5
Darko- 1 for 11
Grant- 2 for 8

Dwight Howard had 30 points, almost exclusively on dunks + "and ones", and 25 rebounds. Dwight & Darko combined for 14 offensive rebounds and 5 blocked shots while holding the Warriors to 37% shooting. There was never a second without one of them in the game.


This is how the Pistons used to play. Shoot like crap and still get the win because of your defense.

The Darko line is not surprising at all this year.

Darko did have a magnificent 2 handed dunk that was blocked by the rim. Dwight got the board and put it back down.

This was a mixed game for Darko. Of his 11 shots, 9 were good ones. He was getting the ball extremely deep in the paint and drew a lot of fouls on the other team. A lot of them were not shooting b/c they just tied him up when he caught the ball.

Even so, it was a bad offensive game for him.

However, he had one of his best defensive games of the year. 4 offensive rebounds, and 7 total with 4 blocked shots. He was 2nd on the team in "help value" behind Howard.

He was 2nd on a +/- basis, and the Warriors' PF's and centers got shut down. While Darko was in the game, Biedrins, Foyle, Diogu, Murphy, and Dunleavy combined for 69 minutes and only 8 points. Dwight Howard was also in for all but 3 minutes of that.

This is the benefit of playing those 2 together.

And maybe the neatest thing is that the Magic is right up with the "big boys" a third of the way through the season. Before long, we might have to take them seriously, both now and in the future.

I still think they are a 6'5" PG away from being a major threat and I hope Jameer proves me wrong.

Anyone else thinking the Magic will challenge the Pistons for EC ? Probably not, but maybe:hoops:.

I think the Pistons would win it, though.

And maybe the neatest thing is that the Magic is right up with the "big boys" a third of the way through the season. Before long, we might have to take them seriously, both now and in the future.

I still think they are a 6'5" PG away from being a major threat and I hope Jameer proves me wrong.

Anyone else thinking the Magic will challenge the Pistons for EC ? Probably not, but maybe:hoops:.

I think the Pistons would win it, though.

I think Orlando has the tools...just not the experience.

I think Orlando has the tools....

Are you calling Darko a tool?

Are you calling Darko a tool?

With every fabric of my being. :)

Interesting Magic/Lakers game tonight.

Howard was Shaq-ing it up all night. 25 points on 80% dunks.

In the 4th, they were down by 2 with 1:40 left and they reinserted Darko. They actually ran a play for him. He posted up, and immediately went to the baseline baby hook and tied the game. Kobe later hit a couple daggers to take it back.

Still, it was strange seeing him be the man in a crunch time situation. Even stranger was that they made him come straight off the bench to do it.

In the end, he played 15 minutes and had 6 pts, 4 rebs, 4 ast, and 2 blcks.

Last game, the 3 former Pistons shot 3 for 24 and the Magic won in a blowout. Tonight, those 3 shot 15-26 and the Magic lost.


And last, but not least- SMUSH PARKER

Career night.

32 minutes, 26 points, 4 boards, 5 assists, and 3 steals.

And this guy sat an entire season under LB.


One more comment:
72 total points scored by ex-Pistons in this game (Smush/Evans/Hill/Arroyo/Milicic)

Good stuff Tashawn... earnin' those stripes my man.

I think Orlando has the tools...just not the experience.

yes. darko has the tools to make just about any team a contender for the nba championship. people laughed when i said he makes teams contenders. he is a solid defensive presence that gives you some offense right now in his career. he has great offensive skills too he just needs the coach to call his number more often. good things happen when darko gets the rock on offense.

yes. darko has the tools to make just about any team a contender for the nba championship. people laughed when i said he makes teams contenders. he is a solid defensive presence that gives you some offense right now in his career. he has great offensive skills too he just needs the coach to call his number more often. good things happen when darko gets the rock on offense.

Yeah, those 15 minutes he contributed last night were incredible. It must have been an honor to be one of those who witnessed it live.

Too bad he is playing behind such a super stud. That Tony Battie got 28 minutes. He must really be great to get all those minutes from Darko. I wonder why Battie is still a free agent in our fantasy league? I'd better pick him up right away. Or you could dump Darko and grab him. Then again, you'll be wasting your first pick (#2 overall) just like real life.

I'm wondering if you are feeling some of Joe Dumars pain. It's one thing to be loyal to the guy, Jay.:cheerleader: Cheer for whomever you please. I think we can all respect that. But it's time to stop pretending that Darko is something he isn't. He is a backup Center playing behind another below average Center. Arguably the biggest number two bust in the history of NBA pro basketball. If he was any good, logic should tell you that Hill would use him.

This thread is really about the Orlando pick. I'm sure there is a darko battle thread somewhere.

Darth, we all know that DMC is not playing as well as some of us hope, yet, but I think it is pretty commonly believed in Orlando that he is playing behind Battie because he makes an impact off the bench. They are trying to keep one of their two best 7-footers on the floor all the time and Battie plays pretty well. But DMC is coming off the bench partly because Battie does not make an impact when he comes in that way.

You remember me, I have been in DMC's corner from the beginning, but I have no problem with him playing behind Battie.

The reason he played so few minutes last night is that Brian Hill overreacted to the two early fouls and sat him way too much. He also sat Dwight way too long for the same reason. This is one his "things". Save his best for later and sometimes it becomes too late.

Oh, yes, I did see the game from start to finish. We're in CA now visiting, and saw in on Fox Sports in CA.

Darth, we all know that DMC is not playing as well as some of us hope, yet, but I think it is pretty commonly believed in Orlando that he is playing behind Battie because he makes an impact off the bench. They are trying to keep one of their two best 7-footers on the floor all the time and Battie plays pretty well. But DMC is coming off the bench partly because Battie does not make an impact when he comes in that way.

You remember me, I have been in DMC's corner from the beginning, but I have no problem with him playing behind Battie.

The reason he played so few minutes last night is that Brian Hill overreacted to the two early fouls and sat him way too much. He also sat Dwight way too long for the same reason. This is one his "things". Save his best for later and sometimes it becomes too late.



Doesn't matter lazy. A REAL number two pick should not be coming off the bench behind Tony Battie after 4 years. When do we stop blaming the coaches for what Darko can't do?

I am certain now that even if we blow the Orlando pick, we didn't make a mistake trading him to Orlando, because unfortunately, he just isn't doing many things very well.

Doesn't matter lazy. A REAL number two pick should not be coming off the bench behind Tony Battie after 4 years. When do we stop blaming the coaches for what Darko can't do?

I am certain now that even if we blow the Orlando pick, we didn't make a mistake trading him to Orlando, because unfortunately, he just isn't doing many things very well.
Tater, keep this page bookmarked. You're gonna need to repeat those comments 20 or so pages from now.

yes. darko has the tools to make just about any team a contender for the nba championship. people laughed when i said he makes teams contenders. he is a solid defensive presence that gives you some offense right now in his career. he has great offensive skills too he just needs the coach to call his number more often. good things happen when darko gets the rock on offense.

I didn't say Darko, I said Orlando. Darko doesn't contribute much to Orlando's success these days. He doesn't play enough. Just spot minutes here and there.

Now, as it pertains to the Orlando pick.... It appears that D. Howard's game is truely elevating. Who knows how good this kid will eventually become? Something tells me that the trade deadline will be an active one this year. With so many teams still in the running for a post season playoff birth, the GMs in the East have a dilemma on there hands. Do they tank for the best draft in years or try to make moves to take advantage of one of the most open opportunities for advancement in the playoffs in quite some time? I don't see Orlando improving much, unless of course they acquire Webber. I'm thinking we see a decline from them to around the 8th/9th position by the time we hit the 3/4 mark. Either way they won't make it out of the first round and our draft pick will not be a high one.

I didn't say Darko, I said Orlando. Darko doesn't contribute much to Orlando's success these days. He doesn't play enough. Just spot minutes here and there.


I know many of us disagree with each other but I really have to disagree with that statement. If you actually see any of their games, I have to believe you would not be saying it.

If you go on the Orlando forums, you will find that there are many, many people there who see things much differently from what you say. He plays much more than spot minutes and although he is still very much a rookie in his ups and downs, he is a major contributor there.

When he does play short minutes in games it is because he gets a couple of fouls and is forced to sit long periods. That is why he does not try to block as many shots any more. He is still playing scared as evidenced by his looking back at the bench after plays to listen to what Hill is screaming at him.

Most people who post over there believe he should be starting but I still believe the lift he and the rest of the second unit brings is more important. That is in opposition to when he played here and most of the people were putting him down constantly. So, he must be contributing over there or the posters would be that same way as here.

The Magic second unit has consistently played well in most aspects of the game.

:focus: Our picks are currently @ #22 & 23

I know many of us disagree with each other but I really have to disagree with that statement. If you actually see any of their games, I have to believe you would not be saying it.

If you go on the Orlando forums, you will find that there are many, many people there who see things much differently from what you say. He plays much more than spot minutes and although he is still very much a rookie in his ups and downs, he is a major contributor there.

When he does play short minutes in games it is because he gets a couple of fouls and is forced to sit long periods. That is why he does not try to block as many shots any more. He is still playing scared as evidenced by his looking back at the bench after plays to listen to what Hill is screaming at him.

Most people who post over there believe he should be starting but I still believe the lift he and the rest of the second unit brings is more important. That is in opposition to when he played here and most of the people were putting him down constantly. So, he must be contributing over there or the posters would be that same way as here.

The Magic second unit has consistently played well in most aspects of the game.

I do..he plays less and less these days. He's good for about 15 mins a game (regardless of the rational). Good role player.

Orlando will go as far as D. Howard takes them. That's why I'm seeing them as a first round exit or barely missing the playoffs as a worst case scenario. We might have to accept the fact that this draft pick will most likely not be a high one. The good thing is that even if it isn't that high, the depth of the draft should still net us a good player.

D Howard is an amazing player due to his sheer athleticism. They used the X-mo camera in the game last night and his head was truly about the height of the rim when he dunked the ball. Then consider that his arms give him another 3 fee above the top of his head. But, he still makes a ton of bone-headed mistakes too. He's a turnover machine and he'll air-ball any shot outside of 8 feet.

When you combine that with the turnover prone Orlando perimeter players, I think that will be their downfall in the playoffs.

The other day, they had 23 turnovers, shot 35%, and still won by a comfortable margin. They can get away with it in the regular season, but the playoff pressure will rattle them.

Believe it or not, Darko is actually a more trustworthy player with the ball in his hands. They started to play inside out with him last night and got great results from it.

Magic lose two in a row... Arroyo is in Hills dog house...
Down goes Frasier... down goes Frasier :^)

Magic lose two in a row... Arroyo is in Hills dog house...
Down goes Frasier... down goes Frasier :^)

Actually, they've lost 5 in a row.

Actually, they've lost 5 in a row.
Nice... the Magic are 3 games ahead of a lotto team

Sink like a stone!

I really thought they were going to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. They are getting that wrong right now. Last night, Darko played better than Dwight, by a lot.

I am glad to see the Pistons getting it together, though. One of my teams needs to be winning.

The Magic needs a true point guard. They have one, but they do not play him much. I was wishing they would go after Kidd before the Nets took him off the market. Otherwise they might go after CB this summer and that would not be good for the Pistons.

They can't get CB without relinquishing rights to Hill, which means he could only re-sign with them for the minimum.

I know Hill is a nice guy, talks a good game about doing right by Orlando, but he can easily get $5 million a year instead of $1.8

They can't get CB without relinquishing rights to Hill, which means he could only re-sign with them for the minimum.

I know Hill is a nice guy, talks a good game about doing right by Orlando, but he can easily get $5 million a year instead of $1.8

Orlando is retarded. :nerd2:

Roscoe, there is a lot of talk now that Hill is slowing up the progress of the young-uns down there. So, it might be a better idea to let him go. That was the plan, anyway, and they really do need a CB or JKidd. They are not going to win with a pint-sized PG who looks for his own shot first.

This team is so dependent on Howard, that if he got hurt they would sink like a lead balloon... possibly below the top 5 protected pick.
I've taken the voodoo doll and modified it to just a low ankle sprain.

I can't see CB choosing Orlando unless Dumars did not want to pay him. If they are interested then its only going to drive the contract up.

They are a team based around Howard. If anything I can see Howard opting out before they land any FA's. Orlando is just not the place you would want to go if you want to win championships.

This team is so dependent on Howard, that if he got hurt they would sink like a lead balloon... possibly below the top 5 protected pick.
I've taken the voodoo doll and modified it to just a low ankle sprain.
I had a good laugh over this comment.

Magic are still searching for identity (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070126/SPORTS/701260358/1002/SPORTS)

With their momentum from last season's stirring closing kick and this season's promising start clearly long gone, the Orlando Magic are dogged now by two questions: Who are they and who are they going to be?

Are they the team that looked like world beaters early in the season, starting 13-4, or the team that has been mired in a six-week, 10-16 funk? And come playoff time, assuming they still have a pulse in late April, will they be postseason pretenders or contenders?

It all starts at the point. Until Orlando cleans house and brings in a decent guard they are not going to win consistently. There are eight point guards in the league who by themselves produce more Sprocket Points than Nelson and Arroyo combined. Nelson ranks 28th among all points, Arroyo 57th.

They are looking like another 1 superstar team again. Out with T-Mac and in with Howard.

Should be good for around .500 with early 1st round exists.

Go for Gasol? Garnett? Stand pat? on ChicagoSports.com (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070128smith,1,4606212.column?coll=cs-home-headlines)
And what about the Magic? It says it has no interest in a major deal but could be a trading partner. After its hot start, the Magic has cooled considerably because of a broken-down offense, and teams now are purposely fouling the poor free-throw-shooting Dwight Howard.
I think it is funny that a possible MVP candidate is being Hack-a-Shaq'd.

I guess this vindicates Ben.

Anyway, a little Chicago rumour about the Magic going for broke, trying to land Gasol this season. That could be interesting because they lost their #1 pick two seasons back (Fran Vasquez) because he didn't feel comfortable playing in the NBA and elected to stay in Europe. Gasol could be a 2 fer 1 for the Magic, as he too is Spanish and might be able to convince Vasquez to come to the NBA.

Gasol could be a 2 fer 1 for the Magic, as he too is Spanish and might be able to convince Vasquez to come to the NBA.

I didn't think of that. That would make overpaying for Gasol a smart play. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I didn't think of that. That would make overpaying for Gasol a smart play. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I am a genius. :D

The Magic are highly motivated to get a good playoff seed this year... it lessens the blow of not having a 1st round pick.
It makes sense that they could easily parlay G Hill's massive contract into equal talent at his position AND a solid PG that they desperately need (Arroyo in his third dog house)... I think they'll be active traders within a month.

With the Magic losing 8 of their last 9 games, the Pistons draft pick has moved up to #18. Keep on losing boys!! We want some ping pong balls!!

They lack athletisim and defense on the perimeter.
Darko goes for pump fakes a lot.
They are also a selfish team... not many third passes going on.
The two bigs can bully their way inside though (say what you want about DMC but he is a load inside)... so they'll always have an iinterior game.
The new formula for beating the Magic is to break down the weak perimeter and get the bigs in foul trouble or find the open man after the help comes (sounds like the Pistons).

The new formula for beating the Magic is to break down the weak perimeter and get the bigs in foul trouble or find the open man after the help comes (sounds like the Pistons).

I guess the formula isn't a secret anymore...

Darko goes for pump fakes a lot.


Yet he only had 1 personal foul. Led the game in rebounding and blocks off the bench in limited minutes.

But I do agree with you. I think that he would probably learn with increased playing time. He has slowly learned to avoid fouling. The next step is avoid throwing bad passes and getting caught up in the air.

He's not stupid. He is aware of the mistakes he is making. When they ask him if he is happy with his game, he says that he thinks he can play better.

Yes 8 boards , 9 pts and 2 blocks is a pretty good game for him. But he has had more bad games than good this season.

I watched part of that game. Before the game the magic announcers were saying how it was a must win game for them since the Hawks had beat them in Orlando a few days before. Not sure how much Coach Hill actually said but it was an important game for them and they came up flat.

I am not going to root Darko on or say how much potential the Magic have because I want them to lose so we can get a good pick. One game above .500 now. It would be great if they could finish 10 games or so under .500 so we can get a single digit pick.

WoW maybe Hill should get it next.
The Magic are barely .500

Yes 8 boards , 9 pts and 2 blocks is a pretty good game for him.

Says a lot.

Maybe he can make the NBDL Hall of Fame. :stirthepot:

I think you guys are really letting the minutes he is getting affect your view of what he is doing. He's only averaging 22 mpg. Tayshaun Prince plays 73% more minutes than he does.

The Pistons have 10 players that play less than 22 mpg, and none of them is outproducing Darko. The best we have is Nazr at 6.9 points. The best rebounder is Dyess at 5.8 boards. The best shot blocker is Nazr with 1.0.

Darko would easily be our 6th man right now.

Darko's career minutes (2,143) are now the same as Lebron James' minutes were through his first 56 games in his rookie year. Lebron ended up playing 3,122 minutes that year to Darko's 159.

Now, in terms of our draft pick, I definitely hope they continue this slide. I just don't think it is healthy for everyone here to continue pretending that it was a good idea benching the #2 draft pick for 3 years and then releasing him for a #10-20 pick.

I think you guys are really letting the minutes he is getting affect your view of what he is doing. He's only averaging 22 mpg. Tayshaun Prince plays 73% more minutes than he does.

The Pistons have 10 players that play less than 22 mpg, and none of them is outproducing Darko. The best we have is Nazr at 6.9 points. The best rebounder is Dyess at 5.8 boards. The best shot blocker is Nazr with 1.0.

Darko would easily be our 6th man right now.

Darko's career minutes (2,143) are now the same as Lebron James' minutes were through his first 56 games in his rookie year. Lebron ended up playing 3,122 minutes that year to Darko's 159.

Now, in terms of our draft pick, I definitely hope they continue this slide. I just don't think it is healthy for everyone here to continue pretending that it was a good idea benching the #2 draft pick for 3 years and then releasing him for a #10-20 pick.

We've been here before. Darko numbers are not impressive compared to other players in the league who've played the same amount of minutes. They are average. Still no break out games. Is it possible to have a break out game with just 22 minutes? Darko fans apparently don't think so, but anyone who religiously looks at box scores (fantasy b-ball heads) knows that he simply is very unspectacular statistically compared to others given the same amount of minutes. Every team practically has a great potential guy (Darko-esque). The only difference is that the noteworthy ones produce at a much higher clip than the Serbian. Does Darko have intangibles? Sure! But, that argument can be made for practically ever player that fits that mold. And I'm not just talking about players who have been in the league for a couple of years. There are alot of first/second year players that have not benefited from the training Darko had with Sheed/Campbell/Okur/BigBen...etc. Blame it on his coach, blame it on the management, hell... blame it on Darko. Just realize that the conclusion is the same...he's been unspectacular this year. No one is talking about him. He is no closer to being an all-star that Mikki Moore in New Jersey.

That Orlando draft pick is starting to look reallllllll good right now! :)

I'm not saying he is an all-star. I am just saying that we gave away our 6th best player.

Who has had a break out game this year from the following list?:

Delfino (5 games with 10+ points, and barely)
Nazr (2 double-doubles, wow!)
McDyess (season high 16 points)
Flip Murray (1 game over 20 points, and he played 43 minutes to do it)
Blalock (yeah)
Amir Johnson (not given a chance)
Lindsay Hunter (not a breakout kinda guy)
Dupree (no chance)
Dale Davis (defensive specialist)

Are any of these guys on your fantasy team?

I'm not saying he is an all-star. I am just saying that we gave away our 6th best player.

Who has had a break out game this year from the following list?:

Delfino (5 games with 10+ points, and barely)
Nazr (2 double-doubles, wow!)
McDyess (season high 16 points)
Flip Murray (1 game over 20 points, and he played 43 minutes to do it)
Blalock (yeah)
Amir Johnson (not given a chance)
Lindsay Hunter (not a breakout kinda guy)
Dupree (no chance)
Dale Davis (defensive specialist)

Are any of these guys on your fantasy team?

Hell no! But how many of them are averaging 22 mins a game?

Now, in terms of our draft pick, I definitely hope they continue this slide. I just don't think it is healthy for everyone here to continue pretending that it was a good idea benching the #2 draft pick for 3 years and then releasing him for a #10-20 pick.

From what I've seen of Darko's game he is looking like becoming a #10-20 pick anyway.

We are now 45 games into the season and to me, the following 2 facts are the bottom line:

- Tony Battie has started every single game.
- Tony Battie still plays more minutes than Darko.

Surely, surely that must be telling you something??

From what I've seen of Darko's game he is looking like becoming a #10-20 pick anyway.

We are now 45 games into the season and to me, the following 2 facts are the bottom line:

- Tony Battie has started every single game.
- Tony Battie still plays more minutes than Darko.

Surely, surely that must be telling you something??

The #10-#20 pick did not help us last year or this year... and given the Pistons' track record, will not be able to help us until his 3rd year in the league, which will be the 2009-2010 season.

You're trying to say that because Battie averages 1.9 more minutes per game that the coach doesn't trust Milicic? How many bench players in the league play more than the guy starting in front of them?

Also, from a statistical standpoint (gross numbers, numbers per 48 minute, +/-, whatever else you can thing of) Darko is outperforming him. The Magic apparently like what he brings off the bench. We have people on this forum also arguing that Tayshaun Prince should come off the bench for the same reason. Either that, or the Magic are trying to suppress his value for the contract negotiation... ala Amir Johnson with the Pistons.

I'm not saying he is an all-star. I am just saying that we gave away our 6th best player.

Who has had a break out game this year from the following list?:

Delfino (5 games with 10+ points, and barely)
Nazr (2 double-doubles, wow!)
McDyess (season high 16 points)
Flip Murray (1 game over 20 points, and he played 43 minutes to do it)
Blalock (yeah)
Amir Johnson (not given a chance)
Lindsay Hunter (not a breakout kinda guy)
Dupree (no chance)
Dale Davis (defensive specialist)

Are any of these guys on your fantasy team?
delfino and nazr can be found on rosters.

McDyess is on my fantasy roster.

What place are you?

11th place.

Forget about what we had to give for the next draft...I am excited about what we can get. The last time I remember 2 first rounders was Lindesy Hunter and Alan Houston. I was pretty excited back then but they are good players and not great players.
I am just ready to get back to watching hungry players...not guys coasting thru the season to play in the playoffs.

We have been away a month to see our family in CA, so have not been on as much and have not seen but one Orlando game. I have kept in touch, however on the forums.

I am ready to admit my ignorance in predicting a very good season for Orlando, finishing only a little below the Pistons. I still believe that they have good talent but the way they use it is far beyond my meager basketball knowledge, or so it would seem.

I have no problem with Darko coming off the bench as he is a good catalyst on the second unit. I believe he should be getting 30+ minutes a game, but Hill sees it differently.

My main question about Darko is that I wonder why in something between a half dozen and ten games this year, when he was on pace for a double-double, he was jerked. Just Monday, he was jerked and yelled at by the coach with he had a sure double-double and was leading the team in blocks and rebounds. Yes, the same team that Dwight plays for.

Someone on the forum was saying that he thought Hill yelled at him, "What are you doing out there?" and Darko shrugged and went on to the bench. I believe that Hill said, "What are you doing out there? You might increase your value next summer by playing like that". :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

They talked so much about using DMC and D-12 high and low and used that to good advantage last season and then wanted him to bulk up for this year. Now, they have two bulked-up players who do the pretty much the same thing instead of what they planned to do.

He even plays Garrity instead of increasing Darko's minutes.

I also wonder why with the team needing long shooters to get better spacing, they resist playing JJ and Deiner more. There are other things, too, that shows their poor usage of their talents.

At any rate, I am admitting that I over-rated their ability to use their talent very well, so am admitting that I do not know much about basketball, after all.

Sorry!!! But there it is.

McDyess is on my fantasy roster.

I just noticed that on ESPN.com, they show that Milicic is on 12.8% of fantasy rosters (down from 19%) while Dyess is on 4% and Delfino is on 0%.

Who are those 4%? The hardest of the hard core.

I still love you all. :)

Hill would rather trade Battie before losing his enthusiasm.
Or maybe Battie has compromising pictures of management.

Looks like they are starting Darko tomorrow. We'll see how he handles the added pressure.

We'll see how he handles the added pressure.
Low altitude game? :pound:

From the Freep (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070131/SPORTS03/701310373/1051):
Pistons president Joe Dumars was spotted with one of the team's scouts checking out Brandon Rush (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/rush_brandon00.html), a sophomore guard at Kansas, according to the blog of Lawrence Journal-World writer Ryan Greene.

Orlando Sentinel - You Won't Believe Brian Hill's Decision by (http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/2007/01/you_wont_believ.html)

Looks like Brian Hill reneged on his decision.

Weak sauce.

He's afraid of offending his veterans by benching them even after they lost 8 of 9 games.


Flip Saunders has more backbone.

No one seems to be worried about offending Darko!

True dat.

Yeah, if they can't by Reddless Bucks, it's ova.

That's no way to play a "gangsta"

Listening to the countless Darko excuses is slightly entertaining. Its great watching the Magic drop to nothingness and watching Darko struggle to get minutes against a player that wouldn't even make the Pistons roster. Hilarious.

MoTown,