Kinda interesting...

Compare Dirk Nowitzki to Rasheed Wallace Per 48 Minutes - Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/labs/comp.cgi?I=nowitdi01%3ADirk+Nowitzki&y1=2006&C=wallara01%3ARasheed+Wallace&y2=2006&s=r&t=m&submit=Compare)

Compare Kevin Garnett to Rasheed Wallace Per 48 Minutes - Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/labs/comp.cgi?I=garneke01%3AKevin+Garnett&y1=2006&C=wallara01%3ARasheed+Wallace&y2=2006&s=r&t=m&submit=Compare)

KG is going to make $6 million more than Sheed this season. Nowitzki about $1 million dollars more.

Even MORE INTERESTING IMHO.

Sheed's numbers per 48:
2006 80 gms 2778 7.9 FGM 18.4 FGA 2.3 FTM 3.1 FTA 1.55 OFF REB 7.9 DEF REB 9.45 TOT REB 3.1 AST 1.4 STL 2.2 BLKS 1.4 TO 4.0 PFS 20.88 PPG

Darko's numbers playing 30 games in Orlando (per 48)

2006 30 gms 627 mins 7.8 FGM 15.41 FGA 1.84 FTM 3.22 FTA 59.5 FT% 2.5 Off REB 6.9 DEF REB 9.43 TOT REB 2.53 AST 2.76 TO .92 STLS 4.83 BLKS 5 PFS 17.48 PPG.

What I find EVEN MORE INTRIGUING is that Mr. Milicic is only earning HALF of what Mr. Lazy Pants does.

How you like dem apples?

We are definately seeing MORE than HALF the production for HALF the pay. Considering the AGE of the players and the POTENTIAL FOR GROWTH of the younger player, I don't see how you wouldn't want to EXPLORE THE OPTION OF PLAYING A YOUNG CENTER LIKE THAT. Too bad Detroit screwed that up too.

Jack

Maybe Joe will turn out to be a dumbazz for trading Darko...but let's not dwell in the past right now. As Piston fans, we've got enough problems trying to get a grip on the future.

Jack

Maybe Joe will turn out to be a dumbazz for trading Darko...but let's not dwell in the past right now. As Piston fans, we've got enough problems trying to get a grip on the future.


I know. You can say that again. Will Delfino FINALLY get enough minutes to guage whether or not he will be a player in this league? Will Maxiel actually play or will he be a David Kircus Sideshow type player. Will Amir get a chance or is he still too far away.

Finally, will Flip actually show me some coaching or will he continue to step aside and abide by whatever the VETS decide to do?

Jack, you kinda remind me of guys with their hair flared out on the sides and a mullet. Like 80s retro.

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4806/mullet20wiggs3.jpg

Darko is gone dude.
Metallica's best album was Master of Puppets.
Ratt only had 2 hit singles. Live in the now.

This stuff will eat you up inside and make your family move into a trailer. You have to move on. For your own sanity.

Jack, you kinda remind me of guys with their hair flared out on the sides and a mullet. Like 80s retro.

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4806/mullet20wiggs3.jpg

Darko is gone dude.
Metallica's best album was Master of Puppets.
Ratt only had 2 hit singles. Live in the now.

This stuff will eat you up inside and make your family move into a trailer. You have to move on. For your own sanity.

:pound:

Personally, I think Metallica's best album was Ride the Lightning... I agree with the rest though!

We are definately seeing MORE than HALF the production for HALF the pay. Considering the AGE of the players and the POTENTIAL FOR GROWTH of the younger player, I don't see how you wouldn't want to EXPLORE THE OPTION OF PLAYING A YOUNG CENTER LIKE THAT. Too bad Detroit screwed that up too.

Jack, we all know you prefer Darko to... well any other player in the league. Just wondering how he came to be your favourite player?

Jack, we all know you prefer Darko to... well any other player in the league. Just wondering how he came to be your favourite player?

He became my favorite when I saw "flashes of talent" in a player that I felt should get more PT. I've longed for a player to be drafted by the Pistons and then have the opportunity to watch that player grow from ROOKIE to ALL-STAR to WORLD CHAMPION.

I wasn't around during the Pistons 1988-89 and 1989-1990 titles. I lived where I could see those games. I never got to see Rodman as a rookie, or Salley. I've been LONGING for the Pistons to DEVELOP A ROOKIE so that I could see a player develop before my eyes while playing for my favorite team.

When Detroit got the #2 overall pick, I was ecstatic that I would get that opportunity. I was EVEN more happy to see that the Pistons were going with a BIG MAN (I'm a huge fan of postup players and bigmen, Hakeem was my favorite of all time). When I saw Darko getting ZERO OPPORTUNITY from DAY 1 to YEAR 2.5 it only made me more and more irritated that the Pistons would give up on a guy who (from what little I had seen) had shown great skill and potential. I can't understand how they would keep him around and NEVER PLAY THE KID.

Darko is my favorite player in the league right now. I want to see if all of the hype/hoopla is LEGIT. I know that I've seen enough out of the kid that makes me want to see more. He is still a HUGE MYSTERY and an enigma. No one knows what will become of Darko Milicic, but I for one, can't wait to find out.

What about Grant Hill?

The Pistons and Darko has to rank as one of the worst moves in basketball. Its a no win situation for us now. If Darko sucks then it was a waste of a pick. If Darko if mediocre, its a waste of a pick. If he is the greatest most dominant player ever, its still a waste of a pick.

You should have joined fantasy league, we got bball jay, 2xRalph, 16 mile all looking to pick up darko for their teams. It adds another level for rooting for guys since they not only do well but do well for your team. It would be like he was back on the pistons...but with playing time.

Good point Slippy. If I get first pick in the draft, I'm taking Darko. Then I'm going to trade him for their first five picks.

I dunno. I understand peoples frustration with the way the Pistons handle rookies. Darko still may turn out to be a really good player, although as a person he seems like a jerk.

Anyhow, I think we all became divided at some point because although we all wanted to see him succeed, some of us eventually realized it wasn't going to happen...at least with the Pistons.

However, looking back, I'll bet Joe wishes he hadn't traded him. But that has a lot to do with Big Ben leaving.

It's just time to move on.

What about Grant Hill?

The Pistons and Darko has to rank as one of the worst moves in basketball. Its a no win situation for us now. If Darko sucks then it was a waste of a pick. If Darko if mediocre, its a waste of a pick. If he is the greatest most dominant player ever, its still a waste of a pick.

You should have joined fantasy league, we got bball jay, 2xRalph, 16 mile all looking to pick up darko for their teams. It adds another level for rooting for guys since they not only do well but do well for your team. It would be like he was back on the pistons...but with playing time.

What about Grant Hill?

The Pistons and Darko has to rank as one of the worst moves in basketball. Its a no win situation for us now. If Darko sucks then it was a waste of a pick. If Darko if mediocre, its a waste of a pick. If he is the greatest most dominant player ever, its still a waste of a pick.

You should have joined fantasy league, we got bball jay, 2xRalph, 16 mile all looking to pick up darko for their teams. It adds another level for rooting for guys since they not only do well but do well for your team. It would be like he was back on the pistons...but with playing time.

Yes you are right, it's a no-win for us NOW !!!! My stance has always been that the Pistons DID NOTHING with their opportunity to have a #2 overall pick. How can they seriously justify it with fans that they only invested 553 minutes of PT into their #2 overall pick? I heard all of the excuses and BS about Darko not being ready or that Detroit already had two ALL-STAR players in the frontcourt, but I still cannot understand HOW YOU CAN ONLY PLAY A #2 overall pick a grand total of 553 minutes in 2.5 seasons. That literally blows my mind. NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA HAS A #2 OVERALL PICK PLAYED LESS IN THEIR FIRST TWO AND A HALF SEASONS AS DARKO MILICIC DID. (save of course Len Bias).

I understand people's frustrations with the incessant bickering back and forth about Darko and his abilities (I've been a big part of it), but what I don't get is how people want to dismiss WHY Darko was a #2 overall pick just because he didn't play in Detroit. DARKO WAS THE CONSENSUS CHOICE AS THE #2 PICK IN THAT DRAFT. Any team that had the #2 overall pick was taking Darko. IMO, any team that had drafted Darko (other than Detroit) would have PLAYED DARKO (as we should have) and would be VERY HAPPY to have him and his contributions to their team.

Detroit screwed up, they tried way too hard to appease the VETS on the team and now they are paying for it with NO YOUTH DEVELOPMENT. No rookie will be happy to hear Detroit call their name on Draft day after the whole Darko/Delfino....... + whoever else is next debacle (Amir?).

I agree! We just locked in that Lame-ness.

Yes you are right, it's a no-win for us NOW !!!! My stance has always been that the Pistons DID NOTHING with their opportunity to have a #2 overall pick. How can they seriously justify it with fans that they only invested 553 minutes of PT into their #2 overall pick? I heard all of the excuses and BS about Darko not being ready or that Detroit already had two ALL-STAR players in the frontcourt, but I still cannot understand HOW YOU CAN ONLY PLAY A #2 overall pick a grand total of 553 minutes in 2.5 seasons. That literally blows my mind. NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA HAS A #2 OVERALL PICK PLAYED LESS IN THEIR FIRST TWO AND A HALF SEASONS AS DARKO MILICIC DID. (save of course Len Bias).

I understand people's frustrations with the incessant bickering back and forth about Darko and his abilities (I've been a big part of it), but what I don't get is how people want to dismiss WHY Darko was a #2 overall pick just because he didn't play in Detroit. DARKO WAS THE CONSENSUS CHOICE AS THE #2 PICK IN THAT DRAFT. Any team that had the #2 overall pick was taking Darko. IMO, any team that had drafted Darko (other than Detroit) would have PLAYED DARKO (as we should have) and would be VERY HAPPY to have him and his contributions to their team.

Detroit screwed up, they tried way too hard to appease the VETS on the team and now they are paying for it with NO YOUTH DEVELOPMENT. No rookie will be happy to hear Detroit call their name on Draft day after the whole Darko/Delfino....... + whoever else is next debacle (Amir?).

Funny thing is is that Darko didn't get pt when Rasheed wasn't even here.

Funny thing is is that Darko didn't get pt when Rasheed wasn't even here.

THANK YOU LARGER THAN THE TEAM "MR. LARRY BROWN".

Funny thing is is that Darko didn't get pt when Rasheed wasn't even here.
the guy was like barely 18.

Still Darko is gone and sheed is here and he has to step in.

Larry Brown won us a friggin championship. Darko didn't even try to earn his minutes here. Jack's disappointment at the Darko situation is as acute as my disappointment in Pistons fans who can't appreciate what LB did for us. IMO, selling out Larry for Darko is a mark of stupidity and myopia.

Larry Brown won us a friggin championship. Darko didn't even try to earn his minutes here. Jack's disappointment at the Darko situation is as acute as my disappointment in Pistons fans who can't appreciate what LB did for us. IMO, selling out Larry for Darko is a mark of stupidity and myopia.

Larry DID NOT WIN THE TITLE, the PISTONS DID. It was THEIR ACTIONS on the court that won. It was their DESIRE to play hard all the time that won, it was their EFFORT and INTENSITY that WON THE TITLE. Larry preferred playing Corliss Williamson over Okur just to try to prove a point to Okur, Larry would cut off his own nose to spite his face. LARRY BROWN IS AN EFFING JOKE.

All you need to do to see that is look at the season he had in NY.

THE PISTONS PLAYERS WERE PRIMED FOR A TITLE IN 2004 WITH OR WITHOUT LARRY BROWN.

All you need to do to see that is look at the season he had in NY.

Obviously his career should be defined by his success in New York. Not.

Larry is fickle, but there is no denying his coaching ability. There are more examples of his excellence than failures.

Larry DID NOT WIN THE TITLE, the PISTONS DID. It was THEIR ACTIONS on the court that won. It was their DESIRE to play hard all the time that won, it was their EFFORT and INTENSITY that WON THE TITLE. Larry preferred playing Corliss Williamson over Okur just to try to prove a point to Okur, Larry would cut off his own nose to spite his face. LARRY BROWN IS AN EFFING JOKE.

You think ACTIONS, DESIRE, EFFORT and INTENSITY are important, yet your favorite player shows none of the above. How do you reconcile that?

I made a new thread about Darko (new with regards to the age of the discussion, not the age of the subject matter).

Please, carry on! (and don't forget I have a great thread about Sheed going on over here (http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/4368-rasheed-wallace-key.html)! ;))

Larry Brown won us a friggin championship. Darko didn't even try to earn his minutes here. Jack's disappointment at the Darko situation is as acute as my disappointment in Pistons fans who can't appreciate what LB did for us. IMO, selling out Larry for Darko is a mark of stupidity and myopia.

how do you know he didn't try?? during which one of those 533 minutes over 2.5 years did you feel darko had a chance to earn minutes? believing that it was possible to earn minutes under the lb regime is crazy. memo okur couldn't "earn" minutes under lb.

don't forget lb also lost us a championship. his refusal to play darko in game 7 cost us the championship. he'd rather play tayshaun on duncan than a young 7 foot shot blocker. lb also basically caused darko to leave the pistons. so instead of us talking about our piston dynasty we are now talking about that 1 championship lb supposedly won us.

``don't forget lb also lost us a championship. his refusal to play darko in game 7 cost us the championship.''

Geezus. What was stupid was not playing Dice, he only had 4 fouls. That, along with many other things, cost us another ring. Of course under Carlisle and Flip we didn't even get close enough for the little things to matter so much...

yeah. he could have played dice or elden. my point is lb made some bonehead calls as a coach plenty of times. the biggest one in my opinion is not playing darko ever. lb was more interested in teaching darko a lesson than making our team better.

carlisle didn't have sheed. in my opinion that's what put us over the top not the coaching of lb.

lb outcoached ron jeremy. flip got outcoached by pat riley. flip also had the malcontent to deal with in a free agent year.

LB also outcoached Phil Jackson, bball jay.

Just a couple of minutes a game in Darko's rookie year, and then in the second year, several more. Put him in almost every game and we would not be talking about this subject at all.

Of course, Dyce would not be here because he would not have been needed; nor would Davis. Using DMC in the Miami series in his sophomore year would have been enough to keep Sheed and Ben from being beat up so much by Shaq and Zo that they were virtually useless in the first two games against Dallas. Then we would not even be talking about the use of Tayshaun on Duncan. There probably would not have been a game seven.

And LB might still be here after a three-peat, going for number 4.

And that is not just hindsight. Some of us were calling for just that, all along; just a few minutes regularly FOR THE GOOD OF THE TEAM!!

Of course, the Magic would not have been so happy now.

I miss Darko... and I'm afraid I'm gonna miss him even more once he wins the MIP award...
I think there are several statements no one can call untrue;
- picking Darko itself was not a mistake (we needed a bigman and Joe D tried to build up a dynasty- we had no need for a Wade or Anthony)
- Darko didn't get enough PT- only about 5-10MPG wouldn't have hurt anyone
- now that Ben is gone, Joe D's trade could turn out to be the worst move he ever made for that team and cause much damage on his good reputation (which has already suffered, 2 years ago he was considered being a genius and probably the best GM in the league, now he has dropped off to above- average)
- many, many people in this forum miss Darko (including me) but having talked about that subject 1000times shows that this off- season has been far too long and boring.

flip also had the malcontent to deal with in a free agent year.
I'm surprised you keep bringing up Ben Wallace ("the malcontent" for those who missed the reference). Ben was unquestionably the Pistons MVP of the last six seasons. I don't think your buddy Darko looks too good by comparison. Darko's contributions to the Pistons are closer to the Rodney White or Mateen Cleaves level (except neither of these players represent the highest pick since 1981).

Fact: Darko will be a great player.
Fact: We got robbed in that trade.

Any way you cut it it was a bad move. However, Darko and his agent did force Joe's hand by requesting the trade. Darko was never going to work out here. You could make the point that Dumars sealed Darko's fate with some of his acquisitions- Rasheed/McDyess. But there is enough fault to go around. Dumars, Coaches, Scouts, and Darko all get some.

It's not the end of the world though. We still got a first round pick which could be anywhere from 6-20. The addition of that pick gives us 4 total in a pretty deep draft. Those assets give Joe a great opportunity to improve the team. Whether its moving up in the draft, trading for an established player (KG?), or just adding peices to the bench. Plus, we still have promising players like Delfino, Jason Maxiell, Chiek Samb and Amir Johnson to look forward to.

It's interesting to see how it will all play out. Unfortunately it will be awhile before Detroit raises any banners to the rafters.

Fact: Darko will be a great player.
Fact: We got robbed in that trade.

Any way you cut it it was a bad move. However, Darko and his agent did force Joe's hand by requesting the trade. Darko was never going to work out here. You could make the point that Dumars sealed Darko's fate with some of his acquisitions- Rasheed/McDyess. But there is enough fault to go around. Dumars, Coaches, Scouts, and Darko all get some.

It's not the end of the world though. We still got a first round pick which could be anywhere from 6-20. The addition of that pick gives us 4 total in a pretty deep draft. Those assets give Joe a great opportunity to improve the team. Whether its moving up in the draft, trading for an established player (KG?), or just adding peices to the bench. Plus, we still have promising players like Delfino, Jason Maxiell, Chiek Samb and Amir Johnson to look forward to.

It's interesting to see how it will all play out. Unfortunately it will be awhile before Detroit raises any banners to the rafters.
This is the truth ^^^. Exactly what I think and feel (except I would class Darko as definitely going to be good, with the possibility to be great, I need to see to believe).

Fact: Darko will be a great player.
Fact: We got robbed in that trade.
Your first fact is really a prediction. We'll see in time.
As far as the trade, that I agree with that completely. I still don't understand why Joe D. was willing to accept so little for a recent #2 pick who had not been properly showcased at the NBA level. It's hard to imagine there wouldn't have been better deals out there at some point before the cap space was needed. I wonder if the focus on Darko was becoming so disruptive that Joe decided to just dump him and be done with it.

Your first fact is really a prediction. We'll see in time.
As far as the trade, that I agree with that completely. I still don't understand why Joe D. was willing to accept so little for a recent #2 pick who had not been properly showcased at the NBA level. It's hard to imagine there wouldn't have been better deals out there at some point before the cap space was needed. I wonder if the focus on Darko was becoming so disruptive that Joe decided to just dump him and be done with it.

Darko will be very good, if not great. DHo's Pippen.

The trade was one of the worst trades I've ever seen, a backup pg, and a young, talented bigman for cato and a late 1st rounder? Huh?

Anyone still sticking up for LB is in some serious denial about him the last few years. LB peaked against LA, and since then he has completely self destructed. Sean Kemp was pretty good back in the day, anyone want him on their team now?

As for the relevance of Darko, well everyone responsible for the Darko Debacle is still around (except LB and Darko). If they can't see how well Darko is playing now, understand that they blew it, and learn not to repeat the mistakes they made, this team is doomed. But if they learn a few lessons, Darko wasn't a complete disaster.

A couple of lessons to use on Delfino, Amir, and JMax:
Find time for the kids
Let them play through mistakes, you don't need to win 62 games
Ditch the coaches pets
Ditch coaches with pets
Never assume anyone will resign
Don't trade a guy just because he wants to
It's not just the player's responsibility to develop, the team has to make an effort to help him.
No more My way or the highway for the non-starters, a little flexibility doesn't hurt

#1 lesson, don't treat your picks like crap and don't let your coaches treat your picks like crap, cause they may say enough is enough and just go to a team that wants them.

Fact: Darko will be a great player.
Fact: We got robbed in that trade.

Any way you cut it it was a bad move. However, Darko and his agent did force Joe's hand by requesting the trade. Darko was never going to work out here. You could make the point that Dumars sealed Darko's fate with some of his acquisitions- Rasheed/McDyess. But there is enough fault to go around. Dumars, Coaches, Scouts, and Darko all get some.

It's not the end of the world though. We still got a first round pick which could be anywhere from 6-20. The addition of that pick gives us 4 total in a pretty deep draft. Those assets give Joe a great opportunity to improve the team. Whether its moving up in the draft, trading for an established player (KG?), or just adding peices to the bench. Plus, we still have promising players like Delfino, Jason Maxiell, Chiek Samb and Amir Johnson to look forward to.

It's interesting to see how it will all play out. Unfortunately it will be awhile before Detroit raises any banners to the rafters.

I agree with everything after your 2 opinion (not fact) statements.

Its impossible to say for a fact that Darko will be a great player. He has the potential to be a great player. He's shown flashes of skills that could make him a great player. But just ask the Lions what potential and a top 10 pick will buy you.

Its too soon to say that we got robbed in that trade since not only have we not drafted the player yet, but we don't even know what pick we're getting, or even what year.

I'd say that part of the trade was a bust (or a lie from the start) in that trading Darko was supposed to allow us to resign Ben. But until the trade is complete, and until Darko and/or Arroyo do something with their potential, its impossible to factually say who won.

I like that: don't let your coaches treat your picks like crap. Dumars said that he played defense to get PT. I think delf made strides in that department. Flip is not Chuck Daly. Or Maybe he is and Chuck had some pressure on him to play Joe. At any rate, if you feel a guy deserves to be out there, let the coach know when it can help not after the fact.

Folks, before you call this the worst trade, bear in mind that the Pistons made a LOT of bad trades.

They traded 2 first round picks for Bob McAdoo. Those two picks became Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish for the Celtics. That was probably the worst trade. McAdoo played 64 games for the Pistons. McHale was a 7 time all-star, and 2 time 6MOY. Parish played 17 seasons after ending up in Boston and is the 2nd all-time rebounder in league history.

By comparison, this trade just sucked.

Folks, before you call this the worst trade, bear in mind that the Pistons made a LOT of bad trades.

They traded 2 first round picks for Bob McAdoo. Those two picks became Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish for the Celtics. That was probably the worst trade. McAdoo played 64 games for the Pistons. McHale was a 7 time all-star, and 2 time 6MOY. Parish played 17 seasons after ending up in Boston and is the 2nd all-time rebounder in league history.

This trade just sucked.
Wow, I didn't even know Mc Adoo was a Piston? At what stage of his career happened that trade? Why did he only play 64 games (one season)? Injuries?
IMHO, it's hard to classify trades against picks because you never know if the Pistons would have drafted Mc Hale and Parrish if they'd kept the picks...

who is your avatar?

Parrish came to Boston in trade for that pick. He was the 8th overall pick in '74 (??). McHale was Mr. Basketball from Minnesota and an awesome pick by the Celts.

McAdoo played but got injured for the 16-66 Pistons and the next season was traded to New Jersey.

who is your avatar?
Is this like "Who is your daddy?"

r U talkin 2 me?

Is this like "Who is your daddy?"

r U talkin 2 me?
Roscoe's guy has enough tattoos to play in the NBA.

The trade that sent Parish, and the pick that became McHale, to Boston was from Golden State, where Parish played the first four seasons of his career (the Warriors drafted him at #8 in '76). But how did McAdoo and the Pistons figure into it?

Boston traded the two Detroit picks, #1 Joe Barry Carroll and #13 Rickey Brown for Robert Parrish and the Warriors' 1st round pick, #3 Kevin McHale.

If I recall correctly, this was a draft day trade with the players being agreed upon in advance of the picks being made.

Really? I've never seen it described that way.

NBA.com's McAdoo bio (http://www.nba.com/history/players/mcadoo_bio.html) says "the Celtics dispatched McAdoo [after the '78-'79 season] to the Detroit Pistons as compensation for Boston's free-agent signing of M. L. Carr."

EDIT: And here's (http://www.nba.com/history/season/19801981.html)what NBA.com says about the Parish/McHale trade:

On June 9, 1980, Red Auerbach pulled off the type of trade that had earned him a reputation for thievery in his more than three decades in the league. Auerbach dealt the first and 13th picks in the 1980 NBA Draft to Golden State for the third pick in the 1980 Draft and four-year veteran center Robert Parish. The Warriors selected Purdue center Joe Barry Carroll with the first pick and tabbed Mississippi forward Rickey Brown 13th. The Celtics took forward Kevin McHale of Minnesota, and thus added Parish and McHale to a frontcourt that already featured Larry Bird and Cedric Maxwell. In one trade, Auerbach had acquired a frontcourt for the next decade.

About halfway down, HOOPSANALYST (http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/0506bcent.htm) (look for Detroit Pistons)

That is also how Eli Zaret recalls it in Blue Collar Blueprint.

The trade may have been prompted as compensation for losing Carr in free agency. But Carr was a free agent and going to the Celtics no matter what the Pistons did.

according to your last post, Roscoe, that trade doesn't seem that bad to me now- no one could know that Mc Adoo would become injured and know one could know that the Celts get two future hall of famers via excellent deals. (Correct me if my conclusions are wrong, you're definetely far more of an expert in causes of trades, especially trades that happened in the 80s). Saying that this was a bad trade seems to me like saying trading player X for player Y to Team Z is a bad trade because Team Z trades player Y for player W who becomes a superstar- you can't talk about bad trades if another team makes great deals no one expected with them, imho.
With the Pistons trade, Joe knew about Darko's potential. And he also knew that Arroyo was a solid NBA player- so I still wonder (if he really needed to do that trade) why it wasn't possible to
- wait til summer
- AND/OR get someone better in reward than an expiring contract of an permantely injured player and a (protected) pick?

I made a new thread about Darko (new with regards to the age of the discussion, not the age of the subject matter).

Please, carry on! (and don't forget I have a great thread about Sheed going on over here (http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/4368-rasheed-wallace-key.html)! ;))

:pound: Imagine my surprise just now to see a brand spankin' new thread titled Darko in my list of unread posts (NICE title Roscoe...classic :nod: ). Ah...further investigation :spy: revealed that it to be a Sheed thread that Roscoe had to rescue. Thanks Roscoe.:) I really like the Sheed thread and would not have liked seeing it go down in the flames of the Darko drama.:flame: :drama:
Now don't anyone get me wrong. I LOVE:inlove: Darko. But what a thread hijacker the Serbian Gangster has turned out to be. :laugh:

Interesting, I never knew that. McAdoo for M.L. Carr wouldn't have been so bad, but with the 1st and 13th picks in the draft thrown in as well? :doh:

Although I do like that the Pistons got Laimbeer and the pick that turned out to be Rodman in exchange for Phil Hubbard and Paul Mokeski! :cheerlie-GOAL:

according to your last post, Roscoe, that trade doesn't seem that bad to me now- no one could know that Mc Adoo would become injured and know one could know that the Celts get two future hall of famers via excellent deals.
By the same token, I don't think anyone thought that Cato AND Davis would sit against Shaq, or that the money saved with Cato's expiring deal would not be used (completely) to retain Ben.

Also, no one knows that Darko will be an All-Star at this time, or that he will be a 7 time All-Star or 3 time Champion, yet if you read some of the WORST TRADE EVER responses, you would think he was guaranteed a Michael Jordan type career.

At this time, he is a very promising big man, and Arroyo is the best backup PG in the NBA. Not exactly the worst deal ever considering that #1 pick from Orlando could turn out to be a player better than both of them (Darko+Arroyo, hey, I'm allowed to dream too) combined.

so I still wonder (if he really needed to do that trade) why it wasn't possible to
- wait til summer
- AND/OR get someone better in reward than an expiring contract of an permantely injured player and a (protected) pick?
By summer, Darko's value would have been less. He was getting less and less playing time. The timing of the deal wasn't great, but it could have been worse.

That protected pick is in a draft that should be as deep if not deeper (admittedly not as top heavy) than 2003. A mid first round pick could quite possibly be a franchise stud. Yes the Pistons squandered the cap space, but that pick still holds a lot of potential, at a time when Sheed and Dice will be winding down their careers...

Although I do like that the Pistons got Laimbeer and the pick that turned out to be Rodman in exchange for Phil Hubbard and Paul Mokeski! :cheerlie-GOAL:
The best part of that was McCloskey selling Ted Stepien (the Cavs owner) on Mokeski (who was a total stiff) because they were both Polish.

By summer, Darko's value would have been less. He was getting less and less playing time. The timing of the deal wasn't great, but it could have been worse.
By summer, Joe D. probably wouldn't feel like trading Darko after Ben's departure... I don't think Darko's trade value could become even less than mid- season; also, he had the chance to raise it during the FIBA games, I think the affect of these games on the reputation isn't that little.
You're right, no one knew what would happen- that's why you can say that this is very bad deal if you look at the current situation; if Joe D. had used the money to keep Ben (AND Ben played 2-3 more good seasons in Detroit) and get someone like Wells, the criticism about the deal would be much less. This way, you can already speak of a very bad trade since it seems sure that Darko's going to be at least a solid bigman- and you know how rare good guys with size are.
But that doesn't mean that there still is a small chance that the trade turns out to be not that bad (for instance, if Joe manages to get a good player).

. I don't think your buddy Darko looks too good by comparison. Darko's contributions to the Pistons are closer to the Rodney White or Mateen Cleaves level (except neither of these players represent the highest pick since 1981).

That's the main point of my argument through the last couple of years. In my opinion, you HAVE to allow your #2 overall pick to have some minutes, play his way through his mistakes, and become the player you envisioned when you drafted him #2 Overall.

What you do not do is go out and hire a coach who does not play young people (especially Euros, if your draftee is a Euro) and let him make a farce of the entire transaction. You don't hire a coach who will disrespect and tear down the confidence of your major investment just because you don't need him right now. You might need him later, so you invest some time and effort in him

If you are a good GM and the boss of the coaches you hire, you make sure your #2 Overall pick either makes it or doesn't make it on his own merit, or becomes someone you can trade to get a great player who will help the team. If the coaches you hire stand in his way, you move them out of his way. That's what bosses do. Make their management types work for the good of the organization.

Darko has a long career ahead of him and a lot of things can change. Billups was picked #3 and it took until age 25 when he came here that he started playing like one.

That draft will always depress me though. Even Mello is comming around. Anyone thinking now that Prince is better than Carmello needs to take off those Piston glasses.

Darko has a long career ahead of him and a lot of things can change. Billups was picked #3 and it took until age 25 when he came here that he started playing like one.

That draft will always depress me though. Even Mello is comming around. Anyone thinking now that Prince is better than Carmello needs to take off those Piston glasses.

I completely DISAGREE. No one knows what Tay will become. Tay is getting better EVERY YEAR. Melo still seems like a cocky basketball player who hasn't learned his lesson by spouting off during the olympics. Melo shows ZERO humility. The guy has proven to be a bit of an off court distraction. (2 Weed instances in the first 3 years?)

Tay plays his role and plays it well, I would bet that Tay could average 20 a night if the Pistons made that his primary role. I think his role will INCREASE this year and YES I do feel that I would MUCH RATHER have Tayshaun than the shot-chucker Melo.

I take Tay over Melo any day and twice in the finals!

IMO, Melo has more offensive game, but Tay is a better all around and team player.

Its not always about having the most talented players (look at Team USA's recent results) its about having the best team players with talent.

Tayshaun will probably never be the scorer that Melo is, but I would raather have Taysh. I don't see Melo as much but I have never seen him play defense like T, and I doubt you will ever see him make the spectacular blocks.

I agree that T could score more than he does if he was an earler option for the Pistons. His defense is usually quite good and he often draws the main scoring option for the other team, it seems to me.

I would still rather have Tayshaun.

I just realized how bad things are. Now we have stolen

Darko's thread :pirates: !!!

I just realized how bad things are. Now we have stolen

Darko's thread :pirates: !!!

:pound:

Isn't that one of the signs of the Apocalypse? :reading: I know I read it somewhere. :confused:

THE END IS NEAR!

Carmello has really improved his game. 26.5 PPG last season shooting around .48%. He is not the same player he was when everyone was preferring Prince over him.

I like Tay but there is no way he could average 20+.

``Anyone still sticking up for LB is in some serious denial about him the last few years.''

I couldn't agree less. This playoffs showed us that coaching matters. LB coaxed the same malcontents to the finals and almost a second title, and that's even when he was letting Popovich outcoach him to an embarassing extent. There were times in that Miami series where they played hard for half a quarter a most. Half of LB is better than most coaches. He may have gone permanently crazy now, but it's criminal what a lack of respect he gets for what he did here.

Now, if you wanna criticize him for how he handled Darko, maybe that's an argument. But it's an argument made worse by the fact that Flip couldn't get him going either, and he's had effort issues in Orlando too. Everybody wants to talk about how we failed Darko by making him earn his minutes. Why should Darko have been handed minutes? He would have learned that he didn't need to hustle to get PT. It was a bad situation -- ill-fated as soon as they gave him Sam Bowie's number -- but most of you Darko supporters are choosing to focus on everyone else's mistakes instead of Darko's. In the end, only Darko is responsible for how good a player he'll be.

I just realized how bad things are. Now we have stolen

Darko's thread :pirates: !!!
Thanks for the laugh lazy. I needed that.

Tay is like the mortar between the bricks. Melo, is a brick. You might even call him a cornerstone but without players like tay, his teams will topple over under the strain.

Is tay better than melo? I don't think so. Is Tay more valuable to us. I do think so.

The fact that I live away from Detroit area may prevent me from getting all the news, but the situation as I understood it was this.

Joe drafted a player that almost all the GMs would have drafted, if they had the chance. Joe hired a coach who disrespected that draft choice from the very beginning.

His teammates and others who were interviewed said that he worked very hard in practice and the weight room. Even coach said he was doing well when asked that direct question by the press.

He was put into some games sporadically, when Sheed or Ben was down, and as soon as he made a good or great play, he was jerked. When he was called in to make free throws and made them, he was jerked. After a while, people on the boards said that he did not try in garbage time. I will grant that he did not act like a rookie during those times. As time went by, he worked on other points of his game during garbage time. He worked on his longer shots when the board members were saying that he could not shoot long ones. He worked on his passing, and that is now a strong point of his game.

As time went by, this situation continued. We were told that he would get his chance again last year, and then they went out and got Davis, "to play in the important games and the playoffs". Does anyone believe this is the rhetoric of a management system that is going to give Darko a legitimate shot to play?

He had a great summer in Europe and the pre-season. I got down to the intra-squad game and saw that he was clearly competitive with the other bigs on the Pistons and was popular with his teammates.

Then the "work ethics" started popping up and suddenly he was not as expected. So, he is gone. Well, he "asked to be traded".

Any self-respecting employee who is worth his salt would not take that stuff forever. Getting paid well with no apparent respect or opportunity does not cut it. You have to keep your players feeling part of the team and use them when it is apparent to many that he could have solved a few problems. And this is especially true when his co-workers still say that he was the real thing. As does Joe.

Sorry to be so long but I just cannot see how the Pistons gave him a fair chance and that is why I began all the defensive posts. I am for the underdog, a lot of the time, and he was one.

But he isn't anymore. Whether he makes it, which I believe he will do, or if he fails, he now is getting his chance. That is all anyone can ask.

Nice post Lazy.

I just realized some similarities with the Darko situation and the Mike Williams one with the Lions.

I'm so tired of the doublespeak and misinformation from the organizations and players.

``What you do not do is go out and hire a coach who does not play young people''

I missed this. Reminder: the point is to win championships, not develop talent. We'd just been to the ECF, had coaching issues, and suddenly one of the three best active coaches in the game came available. Of course you hire him. You can't risk the franchise's contending present for a theoretical future.

``What you do not do is go out and hire a coach who does not play young people''

I missed this. Reminder: the point is to win championships, not develop talent. We'd just been to the ECF, had coaching issues, and suddenly one of the three best active coaches in the game came available. Of course you hire him. You can't risk the franchise's contending present for a theoretical future.

Should have traded the pick then. If you can't play a top 3 then its better to trade him. Not 3 years after the fact but before we even picked it.

``What you do not do is go out and hire a coach who does not play young people''

I missed this. Reminder: the point is to win championships, not develop talent. We'd just been to the ECF, had coaching issues, and suddenly one of the three best active coaches in the game came available. Of course you hire him. You can't risk the franchise's contending present for a theoretical future.

championships plural. lb won a championship. joe gave him the players to win championships. i'm talking 5 out of 8 type of championship run.

playing darko 7 minutes would not have risked our present. the present at the time wasn't a sure thing either. chauncey even said playing darko wouldn't have cost us any games. development is an essential key to basketball. you maintain your team with development you can build it with free agency and trades. why even have young players on your team if there is no development responsibility from the coaches.

[quote=hack;50492... the point is to win championships, not develop talent. [/quote]

No doubt. But, with the salary cap it's hard to pay the kinds of players you need unless you can get production our of first contract players who don't make a lot of money. Wade, LBJ, Prince et al are the most valuable of players since they contribute a lot of production on the court, but at a salary level much below what they will end up making.

Darko had a stinky attitude and deserved to get tossed, the organization failed Darko and is to blame, space aliens messed with Darko's hair - doesn't matter which you believe, the loss to the organization from failing to get salary efficient production out of a rare high draft pick in the second and third years of the rookie contract will haunt for some time to come.

Definitely true. Until we score a guy we can pay the max to and surround with cheap and replaceable players, we're going to be dependent on young talent that hasn't cashed in yet. That's the flaw in Joe's ``no stars'' model. Eventually you have to pay too many players MLE+ money, and then you end up with a short bench, tired legs and less rings than you should.

The many discussions of the Darko situation revolve around three possible mistakes:

1. In 2003, picking Darko at #2 in an outstanding draft class.

2. From 2003 to 2006, denying Darko the opportunity to become a valuable contributor.

3. In 2006, trading Darko along with Carlos Arroyo for Orlando's #1 pick and Kelvin Cato.

Almost everyone here seems to agree on #3, that it was a mistake to trade a recent #2 pick who might develop into a perennial All-Star and get so little in return.

The disagreements involve mistakes #1 and #2. Darko's strongest supporters maintain that the Darko pick was the right move for any team that had the #2 pick in 2003, and focus on mistakes #2 and #3.

I see all three as mistakes. I think Darko himself was a victim of the massive hype machine that swept through the league in the weeks leading up to the draft (with Chad Ford being the worst offender). Joe clearly bought into it. If Darko had dropped a few slots he wouldn't have faced so much scrutiny, and I think his career would gotten off to a better start.

When Darko's name first came up before the draft I googled for everything I could find about him. What I found was that he looked extremely impressive in workouts, but there was no evidence that he had played a meaningful role on a basketball team at any level, and no evidence of any type or work ethic or basketball IQ. He talked about wanting to come to the U.S. and make a lot of money, not about his love for the game. Of course, he was a 17-year-old kid from a screwed up country, so maybe it's unreasonable to expect a lot more, but I had a bad feeling on draft night.

So those are the three mistakes: the Pistons were a bad match for Darko, they screwed up his development (and he handled the situation poorly), and the trade was a stinker. Joe is a smart guy and I'm sure he's learned some important lessons here, and Darko is free to do his thing, but this one is going to hurt for a while.

Part of the problem is that by the time we decided to trade Darko, his value to another team is very low because they could only use him for 1.5 seasons before having to renegotiate his salary. Everyone probably figured that it would take him at lease a season's worth of experience before he could really help them out in an important situation.

It is like trying to sublet your apartment with 4 months left on the lease. You're not going to get a great price.

``Anyone still sticking up for LB is in some serious denial about him the last few years.''

I couldn't agree less. This playoffs showed us that coaching matters. LB coaxed the same malcontents to the finals and almost a second title, and that's even when he was letting Popovich outcoach him to an embarassing extent. There were times in that Miami series where they played hard for half a quarter a most. Half of LB is better than most coaches. He may have gone permanently crazy now, but it's criminal what a lack of respect he gets for what he did here.

Now, if you wanna criticize him for how he handled Darko, maybe that's an argument. But it's an argument made worse by the fact that Flip couldn't get him going either, and he's had effort issues in Orlando too. Everybody wants to talk about how we failed Darko by making him earn his minutes. Why should Darko have been handed minutes? He would have learned that he didn't need to hustle to get PT. It was a bad situation -- ill-fated as soon as they gave him Sam Bowie's number -- but most of you Darko supporters are choosing to focus on everyone else's mistakes instead of Darko's. In the end, only Darko is responsible for how good a player he'll be.

A couple of points:
Most people agree LB is a great coach when he wants to be, the problem is in the past few years, he's been more concerned with settling personal grudges than coaching. And it only got worse when he went to NY.

The lack of respect given to LB is directly proportional to the lack of respect he gave the Pistons. And if trying to get a job with Cleveland during the playoffs doesn't earn contempt, I'm not sure what does.

As for Darko's effort issues, I can't recall anyone, including LB, saying he didn't work hard in practice or the off season. The problem was he didn't play hard in garbage time, or made mistakes in real time. Well, rooks make mistakes, and the players that play the (imho) hardest in gt tend to be stat mongers or low talent athletes trying to prove themselves.

BTW, if Darko had such a bad work ethic, explain how he was in such good physical conditioning for the Worlds? Or how he managed to look good, inspite of sitting on the bench for 3 years? If he hasn't been working out, or working on his game, he's even better than I thought.

And last, Darko sulked when not played, he put up poor efforts in garbage time, and he expected to be given more pt. I wonder how many GMs and coaches would put up with those "problems" from a #2 overall draft pick? My bet, everyone but the Pistons and Bill Parcells.

Right now, I'm in the camp of if you drafted him, why didn't you do everything you could to <<secret message for bball jay, 16 mile, twotimesralph: if you don't mind, please look up from the darko thread and mosey on over to http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428 (http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428). end secret message>> ensure that that pick pans out for you. The opportunity costs alone are staggering. I, for one, am disappointed that he is gone. I had figured that he'd be hitting his stride about now...when we needed it. He's a little behind on development. But only a little.

Right now, I'm in the camp of if you drafted him, why didn't you do everything you could to <<secret message for bball jay, 16 mile, twotimesralph: if you don't mind, please look up from the darko thread and mosey on over to http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428 (http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428). end secret message>> ensure that that pick pans out for you. The opportunity costs alone are staggering. I, for one, am disappointed that he is gone. I had figured that he'd be hitting his stride about now...when we needed it. He's a little behind on development. But only a little.

<< begin secret message- I totally agree with you. Secret message will now self destruct >>

Right now, I'm in the camp of if you drafted him, why didn't you do everything you could to <<secret message for bball jay, 16 mile, twotimesralph: if you don't mind, please look up from the darko thread and mosey on over to http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428 (http://www.pistonsforum.com/fantasy-basketball/3610-novice-league-news-06-07-a-5.html#post50428). end secret message>> ensure that that pick pans out for you. The opportunity costs alone are staggering. I, for one, am disappointed that he is gone. I had figured that he'd be hitting his stride about now...when we needed it. He's a little behind on development. But only a little.

Yup,
Taking this point to an extreme, imagine having a kid, and then saying "Prove you're worth me paying for your college education, all I see is a lot of dirty diapers."

Joe D, LB, and Flip refused to change the diapers and were suprised that the pick ended up smelling like ...

So they put the kid up for adoption, Orlando picks him, changes the diapers, adds in some unconditional loving along with the tough love, and voila, future all-star.

LB had his own diapers to worry about.

16 mile, we hire a coach to coach the team, not be a nice guy. I was angry at LB too for his playoff bull%%%% last year, but all that faded pretty fast when it became clear how deficient the new guy is. Guys like LB are hard to find.

16 mile, we hire a coach to coach the team, not be a nice guy. I was angry at LB too for his playoff bull%%%% last year, but all that faded pretty fast when it became clear how deficient the new guy is. Guys like LB are hard to find.

Thank the basketball gods for that.

Maybe Rick would have won the 'ship with the team he had been bringing along (maybe still picking up Sheed, maybe not). He might have even won two, but we would not be worse off than we are now.

And, Hack, we hire a coach to coach the team. Right on!! But since when is developing a team for the long haul the wrong way to do it? A good coach, in my mind, brings the TEAM along, not just his pets, and does not delibrately lie to, disrespect, and disallusion one of the long-term assets of that team.

That's a great idea, but the NBA does not exist solely in your mind. Reality: the coach thinks for today, the GM for tomorrow. It is an extremely common source of friction between the two roles, yet a good one. Doug Collins was an example of what goes wrong when you give coaching and GM responsibilities to one person. The problem is ultimately and ideally resolved by the players -- those that deserve minutes get them.

For the record, what you're saying about Carlisle is speculation and baseless. We know that LB pushed to get Sheed here, so even if you're among the crowd that says Sheed was the diff and not LB, you have to acknowledge that LB played a pretty damn important role. Plus, Carlisle was fired for basically the same reason LB was -- he pissed off the owner and to a lesser extent was a jerk to the players. So anyone citing LBs behavior should be citing Rick's too.

Hack, your opening sentence is over my head. I don't know what you mean by that. I see the NBA writeups in the paper and realize that it actually exists outside my head.

I really have to disagree with you about the jobs of each, the GM and the coach. There have been great coaches who kept the team successful for long periods by utilizing the team, rather than six or seven players.

And even if you are right, then was it not Joe's job to try to ensure that the Pistons longevity extended beyond the year they were in? That is why the GM hires the coach. He has the responsibility that the coach lives up to the long and short-term goals of the team.

There is no way that a player capable enough to be drafted 2nd overall in the league should be allowed to rot at the end of the bench for 2 and a half seasons. No Way!!

Either you play him to see what he can do, and to save your "real NBA players" from some of the debilitating effects of playing somewhere around 100 games per season, or to find that you have a player that you do not want and can get something for him before he becomes a "complete and utter failure" at age 19.

I won't even bother to go back into the LB thing. I have long ago made my opinion of him and I am sure people are tired of hearing it.


Anyway, there is plenty of room for disagreement on the forums. You know how boring it gets around here when we have nothing to argue about. :gun1: :stirthepot: :fencing: :deadhorse !!

LB had his own diapers to worry about.
:pound: If ever there was a time when a rim shot smily was needed, this would be it.:lol:

``A good coach, in my mind, brings the TEAM along, not just his pets, and does not delibrately lie to, disrespect, and disallusion one of the long-term assets of that team.''

And I'm telling you that what's in your mind isn't really applicable to what actually goes on. I agree -- the ideal coach does both. Reality, which is not really something you can choose to disagree with, is that coaches think short term. So to answer your question, yes -- I guess if there's blame to be spread among the Pistons management, it goes to Joe and not Darko.

As for long ago making your opinion of LB, well, it sucks. The above exchange indicates that maybe you're not treating him fairly. I mean, Isiah was 100x the prick that LB is, and 100x the %%%%% that Ben turned out to be. Yet he is still revered here for what he gave us -- lifetime memories. We're a little bit spoiled. There are some fans that will never get rings. They'd love to have LB, warts and all, and have a shot at a ring. Yes, we're disappointed we didnt' get more, but the one we got, with LB at the helm, was pretty damn good. Everyone involved has got my vote forever, and I think it really sucks that so few fans are appreciative of LB in that way.

"As for long ago making your opinion of LB, well, it sucks. The above exchange indicates that maybe you're not treating him fairly. I mean, Isiah was 100x the prick that LB is, and 100x the %%%%% that Ben turned out to be. Yet he is still revered here for what he gave us -- lifetime memories. We're a little bit spoiled. There are some fans that will never get rings. They'd love to have LB, warts and all, and have a shot at a ring. Yes, we're disappointed we didnt' get more, but the one we got, with LB at the helm, was pretty damn good. Everyone involved has got my vote forever, and I think it really sucks that so few fans are appreciative of LB in that way".

Hack, if it sucks to have an opinion of LB after hearing about him for a couple of decades, you must really hate those guys who thought Darko was a bust at age 19/20 :gun1: :angrysoapbox:

Isiah might have been an %$#@ and maybe so was Bill Laimbeer but neither $%$#%$# the franchise over so if people are bitter about LB and Ben Wallace its warranted.

IMO I missed they way the team played under LB. I have biases against Flip after one season which drives merc nuts. However, I think the franchise needs to get on the same page regarding its young assets. Joe talks about not interfering with his coaches but I think he needs to guide then a little more. i think, from reading off season articles, that he's starting to do that.
I think 1 season on the bench is enough. by season 2 play them and figure out what you got.

Slippy: "IMO I missed they way the team played under LB."

Sliplpy, I certainly do, too. I loved it when they could lock down a team and the frustration would come boiling out. And when the Nets cheered when they lost by a carload of points, because they managed to get to 70, or something like that. :lock1:

With the rules changes, I wonder if any team could lock anybody down like that, anymore

I disagree that Ben screwed the franchise over. He was a free agent. He played here for very cheap, and at a very high level, helping lead the team to a championship.

Ben made a business decision. I think Darko made a business decision. And I think LB made a business decision. If these moves hurt the franchise, such is life. In businesss there is frequently a winner and a loser. The Pistons will not always win on and off the court.

I disagree that Ben screwed the franchise over. He was a free agent. He played here for very cheap, and at a very high level, helping lead the team to a championship.

Ben made a business decision. I think Darko made a business decision. And I think LB made a business decision. If these moves hurt the franchise, such is life. In businesss there is frequently a winner and a loser. The Pistons will not always win on and off the court.

Amen. Pistons screwed themselves over by not having a contingency plan. Don't buy a valuable automobile with no insurance and complain about the bill when you get into a wreck.

I disagree that Ben screwed the franchise over. He was a free agent. He played here for very cheap, and at a very high level, helping lead the team to a championship.

Ben made a business decision. I think Darko made a business decision. And I think LB made a business decision. If these moves hurt the franchise, such is life. In businesss there is frequently a winner and a loser. The Pistons will not always win on and off the court.

They made business decisions, however, emotions and egos perhaps played a larger role than necessary in those decisions.

We know Ben`s personality, he had issues with every Pistons coach. Maybe, just maybe, his DPOY awards, and All Star appearances made him believe he could dictate to the coach how the Pistons should play, and when the Pistons said no, you are not the coach, he took his ball and went home. Seems like a business decision and anger to me, not to mention the refusal to enter the game incident, which probably sealed him leaving.

LB, well we know the story. He had to leave sooner or later, it just came sooner. I wonder if he really thought he could turn the Knicks around with the talent he had on that team or was the money to overwhelming to turn down. I believe it was the latter.

Darko, I`ll let someone else explain that move, or maybe I`ll say: TBD!!!!!

I disagree that Ben screwed the franchise over. He was a free agent. He played here for very cheap, and at a very high level, helping lead the team to a championship.

Ben made a business decision. I think Darko made a business decision. And I think LB made a business decision. If these moves hurt the franchise, such is life. In businesss there is frequently a winner and a loser. The Pistons will not always win on and off the court.

i don't mind ben leaving. i wanted him gone a long time ago. the reason i feel he screwed the franchise over is i think he gave joe something verbal saying he was going to sign. people forget that the trade was not darko straight up for cato and a pick. it also included the best backup pg in the nba. that's just a dumb trade.

don't forget ben also wouldn't even listen to sign and trade offers. i think ben wanted to really stick it to the pistons when he left. he did it in the playoffs and after the season was over.

darko's decision wasn't business. the kid just wanted to play. he was grossly overpaid for production all his years here. he just wanted to get some court time.

it's not so much whether you make a business decision it's when and how you do it. lb's was during the playoffs and he is the coach of the team. ben's was midseason and throughout the playoffs and he was the supposed defensive anchor of the team. darko was at the start of the season and he was the 12th man.

the reason i feel he screwed the franchise over is i think he gave joe something verbal saying he was going to sign.

Its amazing to me how you treat this thought which has not been confirmed by any source at all....not even the janitor at the Palace...as reality.

If Ben, in fact, did not give a verbal would that change your mind? Would it change your mind if you found out that the Pistons gave him a verbal of a larger amount? Is that completely out of the realm of plausibility?

When I first saw this thread, I said to myself "lemme see what Lazy, bball-jay, and 16 are cryin about now." Then to my surprise (without going back through all the posts in the thread) it looks like Big Ben has hijacked the thread.

Lemme just say that I have it on "good authority" that the PRIMARY reason Ben left the way he did had more to do with the organization's treatment of his brother than anything else, including the money (although the money is nice and makes for a good PC excuse).

If you've read anything about Ben's personal life, you know he is close to his family. I bet Da Bulls would not have banned Ben's brother for delivering an azz whooping to any player who was foolish enough to attack a fan (especially the WRONG fan) in the stands. Chicago wouldn't stand for it. Neither would Philly, Boston, New York or New Jersey. We shouldn't either.

We should have hired Ben's brother on the spot. He was much more effective that the entire Palace security combined.

Roscoe, what about the sign and trade? Grant Hill took $$ but at least left with a S&T.

I'm not going to state for a fact there was an agreement but it doesn't make sense that you dump assets for cap space AND refuse to pay 'market value' to keep Wallace. People complain about the lack of a contingency. But ask the question: WHY? There are only two main reasons. Stupidity and Trust.

Roscoe, what about the sign and trade? Grant Hill took $$ but at least left with a S&T.

I'm not going to state for a fact there was an agreement but it doesn't make sense that you dump assets for cap space AND refuse to pay 'market value' to keep Wallace. People complain about the lack of a contingency. But ask the question: WHY? There are only two main reasons. Stupidity and Trust.

Well, there could have been the assumption that whatever number they tossed at Ben he would accept. Is that stupidity, trust, or BOTH?

Its amazing to me how you treat this thought which has not been confirmed by any source at all....not even the janitor at the Palace...as reality.

If Ben, in fact, did not give a verbal would that change your mind? Would it change your mind if you found out that the Pistons gave him a verbal of a larger amount? Is that completely out of the realm of plausibility?


i highly doubt the pistons gave ben a verbal of a higher amount. mr. davidson is not willing to go over the luxury tax. giving ben 10 mil would be overpaying him. the guy is on decline and joe knows it.

but yes i'll admit that it is a possibility. you must also admit that the way joe pulled the trigger on the trade it is likely that joe thought very highly of his chance to resign ben. i think the way the trade was so lopsided i figure ben must have gave a verbal.

do you really think joe was all this time planning on signing nazr to replace darko and ben?? signing flip murray and will blaylock to replace carlos arroyo a true pg?? dude joe ain't that dumb. the team we see on the court this year is what happens when someone doublecrosses you and you scramble to make some things work.

i highly doubt the pistons gave ben a verbal of a higher amount. mr. davidson is not willing to go over the luxury tax. giving ben 10 mil would be overpaying him. the guy is on decline and joe knows it.

but yes i'll admit that it is a possibility. you must also admit that the way joe pulled the trigger on the trade it is likely that joe thought very highly of his chance to resign ben. i think the way the trade was so lopsided i figure ben must have gave a verbal.

do you really think joe was all this time planning on signing nazr to replace darko and ben?? signing flip murray and will blaylock to replace carlos arroyo a true pg?? dude joe ain't that dumb. the team we see on the court this year is what happens when someone doublecrosses you and you scramble to make some things work.

I see your point.

But I would also offer that when they didn't get the deal renegotiated prior to Ben's services being offered to the world...the writing was on the wall. From a business standpoint, the move really wasn't that surprising. The Pistons should have known better. I'm sure Dumars can't fault Ben at all for leaving. He needs to look at himself for not doing what was necessary to retain/trade him when he had control of the situation.

Saying Ben broke a promise sounds like reckless guesswork to me.

Good point mr. Hack. The wheels of the championship wagon didn't fall off when the trade was made. Probably there wasn't an agreement on signing but more like an attitude.

the reason i feel he screwed the franchise over is i think he gave joe something verbal saying he was going to sign.
That's pure speculation. You really have no idea what was said, right?

people forget that the trade was not darko straight up for cato and a pick. it also included the best backup pg in the nba. that's just a dumb trade.
Cato was the only guy had with an expiring deal the Pistons could create a deal with. This is CBA 101 stuff. No one else fit in Arroyo's salary range.

darko's decision wasn't business. the kid just wanted to play. he was grossly overpaid for production all his years here. he just wanted to get some court time.
Yeah, he's a Saint.

Last night, Motown and I were chatting about the fantasy leagues, and ended up discussing how we want to like Darko, but his obsessive fans make it nearly impossible, hating everyone who comes into contact with DMC, and never admitting that he can do anything wrong. It's sad. Food for thought.

Mad Hatter"When I first saw this thread, I said to myself "lemme see what Lazy, bball-jay, and 16 are cryin about now." Then to my surprise (without going back through all the posts in the thread) it looks like Big Ben has hijacked the thread".



Welcome back, Mad. I really missed you. There is just not anybody as good as you are at throwing verbal sneers at posters just because they have a different opinion than yours. :gun1: :stirthepot: .

More fun, now :cheers: :dancingparty: !!

No, really. Welcome back!!

I don't get why anyone would like him anymore. He wanted it handed to him, even back in the day when ``Goin to Work'' really meant something. He was the antithesis of what made 2004 great. I for one, am bitter at Darko for screwing up my team's best shot at a superstar in 20 years. We deserved better.

the team we see on the court this year is what happens when someone doublecrosses you and you scramble to make some things work.

bball this is an outrageous accusation. i share you enthusiasm for darko milicic and look forward to him becoming a great and interesting NBA player. but the ben hate you fuel and nurture is just out of control, IMO. for god's sake, he's yesterdays newspaper as my dad would say. can't you find a new escape goat?

That's pure speculation. You really have no idea what was said, right?

just for clarification. nothing i say is fact. i only state my opinion on things based on evidence that i see.


Cato was the only guy had with an expiring deal the Pistons could create a deal with. This is CBA 101 stuff. No one else fit in Arroyo's salary range.


we gave up too much for nothing. i understand why joe would want an expiring contract but we gave up too much to get it. even the draft pick they gave us is protected. the better move would have been to trade ben and call down to flip and tell him to play darko. the loss of arroyo affected our championship hopes far more than a lot of people like ot admit.


Yeah, he's a Saint.


yeah. i give the kid some rope because he is just that a kid. people forget darko is just 21. the other people that everyone are taking up for are 60 and 30 years old. darko having attitude and expecting playing time should be expected from a 19 year old. i expect more from lb and ben. sorry.


Last night, Motown and I were chatting about the fantasy leagues, and ended up discussing how we want to like Darko, but his obsessive fans make it nearly impossible, hating everyone who comes into contact with DMC, and never admitting that he can do anything wrong. It's sad. Food for thought.

well you have your fellow posters to thank for that. i often came to the rescue of darko who was being raked over the coals for 23 seconds of play. i think the hatred was shot towards darko first. some of us take up for darko and some of us pick at his every weakness and mistake. my first desire to take up for darko was that i believed in him cause he was a piston. the other reason why i take up for him so much is i want to be right about him. now that the proof i was right about him is starting to show nobody wants to talk about it. i'm not trying to convince more people to like him i'm trying to convince people that this kid has game and we made a mistake letting him go for peanuts. membership to the dhof is closed to some of you guys anyway.

bball this is an outrageous accusation. i share you enthusiasm for darko milicic and look forward to him becoming a great and interesting NBA player. but the ben hate you fuel and nurture is just out of control, IMO. for god's sake, he's yesterdays newspaper as my dad would say. can't you find a new escape goat?

i haven't liked ben for a long time. his ego trip this year sealed the deal for me. i don't have to like ben that's my choice. i'm kind of an extreme person i don't have a middle ground. i either like strongly or dislike strongly. i liked ben and darko at one point. my hatred of ben wasn't caused by my like of darko.

I don't get why anyone would like him anymore. He wanted it handed to him, even back in the day when ``Goin to Work'' really meant something. He was the antithesis of what made 2004 great. I for one, am bitter at Darko for screwing up my team's best shot at a superstar in 20 years. We deserved better.

Seriously, what exactly is it that Darko did that screwed up the Pistons? I can think of two things, he hated playing in garbage time, and when he couldn't get into the lineup, he wanted a trade.

What he did do was practice, work on his game, workout, and avoid being tazered.

bbaljay - you do have a good point on Arroyo. Nobody ever mentions it but we did lose a lot off the bench with that trade. Delk was a complete non-factor in the playoffs.

CHicago had no reason to do a sign/trade. These things happen when the other team has something to gain from it. Chic could have threw in Chandler but they either decided that trading for another big man on an expiring contract was the better option or simply did not want to help out a rival. Or perhaps Dumars did not like Chandlers contract.

There is an unerlying theme of the financial aspects surrounding the Pistons problems. We can't get away from that. All the recent moves were done on the motivation of saving money. If we had matched Chic's offer then Ben would still be a Piston. Arroyo was delt to save $4mil/yr and Darko was seen as not worth the risk anymore. LB probably would still be in charge as well if he were given a raise.

These were expensive things to do and all teams at some point ( except the Knicks ) have to face the reality of financial limits.

HEY!

Tazering is an honor!!!

16, if we'd known he was gonna loaf, we could have drafted one of the several non-loafers, one of which is practically a HOF shooin already. Ultimately, as much as he was a young kid in a strange situation and reacted poorly to it, well, he's not alone. Lots of players ride the pine for a few years and emerge just fine. And others react to being low on the depth chart by working their way up. Is that too much to ask?

You got me on his taser aversion abilities, though. Perhaps I haven't been as charitable as I could be.

16, if we'd known he was gonna loaf, we could have drafted one of the several non-loafers, one of which is practically a HOF shooin already. Ultimately, as much as he was a young kid in a strange situation and reacted poorly to it, well, he's not alone. Lots of players ride the pine for a few years and emerge just fine. And others react to being low on the depth chart by working their way up. Is that too much to ask?

You got me on his taser aversion abilities, though. Perhaps I haven't been as charitable as I could be.

how can you be sure melo wouldn't loaf around when he sees darvin ham getting more minutes than him?? the fact is you don't know how those other high draft picks would have responded to the way darko was treated.

working your way up has to be an option. there was no way for darko to work his way up and he saw that hence his request to be traded. there were no minutes to "earn". so i say yes it's too much to ask a player to work thier way up if you aren't willing to give them an oppurtunity to do it.

If we had matched Chic's offer then Ben would still be a Piston.


Stop saying that. If Ben wanted to stay so badly he would have taken the largest contract ever offered by the Pistons! Its obvious he wants to go to Chicago- its not like he signed there reluctantly. What is the difference between $51 million and $60 million when you are already very rich?

$9 million dollars. The # is the same if you are very poor.

$9m is $22k a game over the course of the contract. An extra $600+ or so every minute Ben is likely to play.

$9 million dollars. The # is the same if you are very poor.

So Ben appreciates that money the same as a homeless person who digs through the trash for food? You guys are really naive if you think Ben went to Chicago for money. He left because he hates you.

He left because he hates you.

Maybe so, but nobody turns down nine mil. Maybe Ben ended up hating most things Detroit (which I seriously doubt), but he wouldn't have taken nine mil less to go to Chicago. I think you're not allowing for the mindset that sees one wrong landing ending a career, or the one that says that you only get one chance to sign a deal like this. Money matters.

i'd guess that a little of both (i.e. money and change of scenery) motivated ben.

on the one hand, roscoe and dba make an important point: Ben is what? a 32 year old man. If someone told you tomorrow that you won't earn another dime for the rest of your life (i.e. ben tears his achilles on the first day of training camp), how much money would you want to secure an enjoyable life for you and your children and any other loved ones you feel responsible for? What if one guy came up and said I'll give you 51 million? would that do it. probably, for most of us. but then another guy comes and says 60 million? why not take the 60 million? or rather, why settle for the 51?

if it were me, there'd have to be something affective tying me to the place and the job where i was gonna get the 51 million. i've no doubt that ben had and has very strong affective ties to detroit and to the pistons. but i also think it's no accident that he went to last year's strongest defensive team. i wonder if he'd have taken 60 million if it had come, say, from Phoenix? or Washington? or Milwaukee? I kind've doubt it. I think he felt -- rightly or wrongly, none of us knows for sure finally, but he's cerrtainly in a better position than any of us to judge -- that the kind of thing he's really good at and really enjoys doing was gradually being displaced from the place of importance it had in his last few years here in Detroit. At the same time, Chicago comes along and offers him not just the money but also a very enthusiastically delivered opportunity to do that thing he does well and enjoys doing, alongside other people, and for a coach, that clearly values that thing and enjoy doing it too.

I can wish Ben hadn't left. And part of me does. But i have a hard time blaming him for the choice. I can wish that he -- and the other parties involved -- had actually handled the process of making that choice differently. And I believe they could have. But whatever, those are wishes in reference to water under the bridge. He brought me a lot of joy in the past few years, now he's gone to anotehr team, and i wish him well, even when he plays us (though I hope Chicago sucks when they play us). And finally, like any other unasked for and perhaps unwanted change, I'm looking for the new positives it might bring out that we wouldn't have seen otherwise, and I"m hoping that the PIstons do the same.

You guys are really naive if you think Ben went to Chicago for money. He left because he hates you.
:pound::pound: That's a good one!

To put it in everyday terms...

The median US HH income is around $47k. Supposed your current employer offered you $47, but the guy across town offered $55,300 - how many people do you know who wouldn't jump?

47 to 55.3 thousand is the same percentage increase as 51 to 60 million.

$9 Million. What would you do for that amount of dough?

Go to white collar prison for 5 years?
Lose a nut?
Walk from here to Argentina?
Get "Property of Big Ben" tatood on your forehead?

It's a lot of money man.

Sorry, I am still convinced that the man making $47K would appreciate the raise more than the guy making $51M would.

Especially after the IRS got through with him.

$9 Million. What would you do for that amount of dough?

Go to white collar prison for 5 years? No. Life's too short.
Lose a nut? Just one? Sure. Why not? As long as it was done by a competent surgeon (just saw the movie "hard candy" last night -- not a place i wanna go).
Walk from here to Argentina? Definitely.
Get "Property of Big Ben" tatood on your forehead? Nah, even with the current pace of my hairline recession, i don't think there's enough room.

Get "Property of Big Ben" tatood on your forehead?


What font / size? I'll start out for Argentina tomorrow.


Sorry, I am still convinced that the man making $47K would appreciate the raise more than the guy making $51M would.

Especially after the IRS got through with him.

No doubt, but given the choice most folks would go for 18% more money without raising an eyebrow.

Honestly, I find it quite laughable that one of the most devoted members in the history of the Pistons franchise over the past 10 years is being scrutinized about loyalty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the championship team molded from the same qualities that contributed to Ben's success in the league. He has made a name for himself based on pure effort, determination and hard work. So if you fault Ben for getting upset because the team had worked him out of the gameplan or if you fault Ben for eventually leaving to be a part of a team that obviously valued his contribution more than the Pistons....frankly, that's your problem.

Ben Wallace doesn't owe the fans or the Pistons a dime. There is a banner and millions of dollars in merchandising that have more than accounted for his below market check he's pulled most of his career with us. I know we live in a what have you done for me lately society, but to trash Ben in my opinion is unacceptable. To me that is the epitome of a fickle fan. One who forgets all of the work and energy an athlete has sacrificed for the team when he hits a low. And Ben's low still earned him Defensive Player of the Year for Heaven's sake. Had Ben acted out the entire season and mooned the crowd prior to tipoff, it still would not take away from his impact on this organization. We all get frustrated and act out of character. How much press have you seen about Ben getting into trouble as a Piston? Zelch. Nada. No cockiness. Nothing but humility and leading by example. If you need to find an @zzhole, Lord knows you have your pick of the litter in this league. Just stay away from Mr. Wallace because it is unfounded and more importantly NOT deserved.

Darko has done nothing for the Pistons organization. Absolutely nothing. Perhaps the organiztion's fault...sure. But, to align with a dude that is indirectly responsible for one of the most wasted picks in Pistons history versus a player that helped bring the organization back to greatness....is embarrasing. I feel embarassed for anyone who wears a Darko shirt over a Ben Wallace shirt and calls themselves a true blue Pistons fan.

I certainly believe that everyone has a right to their own opinion. You can love who you want and jeer for who you want. My opinion is this though... If you can comfortably through pure speculation villanize I guy as integral to our championship as Joe Dumars (IMHO)..MotownPride thinks you suck.

My opinion on the Darko hype machine? He'll probably have a decent career, but I could care less. He has less impact on our championship legacy than Chuck Nevitt and William Bedford. I don't even think Darko thinks he is as good as his Darko-maniacs believe he is. Oddly enough, the overhyping of this player aided in my dissapoinment through his tenure with the Pistons and now, in this forum, it is preventing me from enjoying his development again.

No. Life's too short.


True... but you make a lot of good connections, brush up on your tennis game, get congical visits, and be a rich man when you got out. Think of it as going to grad school.

how can you be sure melo wouldn't loaf around when he sees darvin ham getting more minutes than him?? the fact is you don't know how those other high draft picks would have responded to the way darko was treated.


Bball, I think this is a very good point. None of those guys were treated the way Darko was. They all went to bad teams that played them ASAP. Truly, Joe should never have drafted that high of a pick.

We should have sold that pick for the cash. This year Phoenix sold picks for money. Why? Because they already have their team, just like we already had ours. Darko should have gone to a bad team where he could have played, IMO.

Sorry, I am still convinced that the man making $47K would appreciate the raise more than the guy making $51M would.

Especially after the IRS got through with him.
I so disagree with that. Its flat out more money. I would think that $51 M would lose appreciation for 47K but not 9M

Bball, I think this is a very good point. None of those guys were treated the way Darko was. They all went to bad teams that played them ASAP. Truly, Joe should never have drafted that high of a pick.

We should have sold that pick for the cash. This year Phoenix sold picks for money. Why? Because they already have their team, just like we already had ours. Darko should have gone to a bad team where he could have played, IMO.


Let's remember that Darko was pretty young and unexperienced when we drafted him. That is a nice way of saying..project. I think that the other picks may have contributed sooner because they had more experience playing the US flavor of basketball, plus many had college experience. I'm struggling seeing Wade, Bosh, Kaman, Ford, Melo (fresh off a NCAA championship) and the rest not finding a way to get some playing time on this squad. I'm not buying it.

Let's remember that Darko was pretty young and unexperienced when we drafted him. That is a nice way of saying..project. I think that the other picks may have contributed sooner because they had more experience playing the US flavor of basketball, plus many had college experience. I'm struggling seeing Wade, Bosh, Kaman, Ford, Melo (fresh off a NCAA championship) and the rest not finding a way to get some playing time on this squad. I'm not buying it.

they had trouble getting playing time under lb in the olympics. lebron, wade and melo. why is it so hard to buy them not getting playing time under lb in detroit?? bosh rode the bench in this years world championships. memo okur had trouble finding playing time under lb and he was experienced.

the truth is darko wasn't as much of a project as stated by some. he was inexperienced but the game was there. his jumpshot, the passing, the shot blocking was all there. he just didn't have experience which we should have gave him.

Honestly, I find it quite laughable that one of the most devoted members in the history of the Pistons franchise over the past 10 years is being scrutinized about loyalty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the championship team molded from the same qualities that contributed to Ben's success in the league. He has made a name for himself based on pure effort, determination and hard work. So if you fault Ben for getting upset because the team had worked him out of the gameplan or if you fault Ben for eventually leaving to be a part of a team that obviously valued his contribution more than the Pistons....frankly, that's your problem.


they didn't work him out of the game plan. thats why we lost to miami. the best strategy against miami was to sit ben on the bench. when 2 straight playoff teams attack you by not checking ben and simply fouling him when you want a turnover it's time to change the game plan. but no flip stuck with ben because we wanted him to resign and we loss. we were playing 4 on 5 and he wasn't exactly stopping anybody in the miami or the cleveland series just ask shaq and verajao.

they can have ben. i'll laugh at him when his inability to hit free throws is exposed again in the playoffs. i'll laugh when his desire to be a bigger part of the offense results in missed layups, free throws and a big yell of "oh" that i used to hate so much when he was a piston. good riddance. mcdyess is better than him.


Darko has done nothing for the Pistons organization. Absolutely nothing. Perhaps the organiztion's fault...sure. But, to align with a dude that is indirectly responsible for one of the most wasted picks in Pistons history versus a player that helped bring the organization back to greatness....is embarrasing. I feel embarassed for anyone who wears a Darko shirt over a Ben Wallace shirt and calls themselves a true blue Pistons fan.

it doesn't have to be darko or ben. it's possible to like both. i just don't happen to like both of them. i aligned with darko because he wasn't given the chance to contribute. yes. i agree we wasted that pick. we wasted that trade too. i wear my darko jersey because not as many people have them.


My opinion on the Darko hype machine? He'll probably have a decent career, but I could care less. He has less impact on our championship legacy than Chuck Nevitt and William Bedford. I don't even think Darko thinks he is as good as his Darko-maniacs believe he is. Oddly enough, the overhyping of this player aided in my dissapoinment through his tenure with the Pistons and now, in this forum, it is preventing me from enjoying his development again.
darko is good you don't have to deny that just because other people point it out. that's why i always cheered for darko i couldn't understand why so many people wanted him not to be a great player. he never did anything to anybody to deserve that. do you like wade?? he's overhyped. in the nba he's a superstar that can't miss and can't be touched. fiba he's average joe. nba is about hype believe it if you want. ben's dpoy is hype in my opinion. dude got schooled by numerous young big men last year. he got owned by shaq and made a fool of by verajao. if artest wasn't so crazy he'd be racking up the dpoy trophies.

they can have ben. i'll laugh at him when his inability to hit free throws is exposed again in the playoffs.



How deep do you think Ben and Chicago will go in the playoffs?

they had trouble getting playing time under lb in the olympics. lebron, wade and melo. why is it so hard to buy them not getting playing time under lb in detroit?? bosh rode the bench in this years world championships. memo okur had trouble finding playing time under lb and he was experienced.

the truth is darko wasn't as much of a project as stated by some. he was inexperienced but the game was there. his jumpshot, the passing, the shot blocking was all there. he just didn't have experience which we should have gave him.

World Championships are a couple of weeks. We are talking about a complete NBA season. I see no comparison here. Try again. Besides, the calibur of players who played in front of them were on a whole much more talented than the Pistons starters.

they didn't work him out of the game plan. thats why we lost to miami. the best strategy against miami was to sit ben on the bench. when 2 straight playoff teams attack you by not checking ben and simply fouling him when you want a turnover it's time to change the game plan. but no flip stuck with ben because we wanted him to resign and we loss. we were playing 4 on 5 and he wasn't exactly stopping anybody in the miami or the cleveland series just ask shaq and verajao.

They did when they hired a coach that didn't put an emphasis on defense and when they decided to make Ben a one dimensional player again. His offense was evolving. There was a NBA championship series to back that up. Detroit is no longer a great defensive team. When they gave up the committment to "D", they effectively phased Ben out. Chicago is a better fit for him now. Period. So he left.


they can have ben. i'll laugh at him when his inability to hit free throws is exposed again in the playoffs. i'll laugh when his desire to be a bigger part of the offense results in missed layups, free throws and a big yell of "oh" that i used to hate so much when he was a piston. good riddance. mcdyess is better than him.

Apples and oranges.

Dice is better than Ben. (chuckle) You'd surely get fired making that move straight up if the salaries aligned. I won't even go there.

One thing is for certain. You are still unable to see the positives in Ben's game, but Darko's talents are obvious to you. Absolutely amazing. lol. Here is a prediction: Ben's contribution to the Bulls will have nothing to do with his offense or ability to make free throws. I would actually venture to say that they are NOT expecting to get that out of him. That's not what they payed for. They payed for defense, rebounds, steals, hustle plays and leadership. I'm betting that they WILL get that out of him. So, the only people he stands the risk of not impressing are the ones who wern't impressed with his game in the first place. I'm sure he's really torn up about that ...with that measely 60 million dollar pay check of his. lol.


it doesn't have to be darko or ben. it's possible to like both. i just don't happen to like both of them. i aligned with darko because he wasn't given the chance to contribute. yes. i agree we wasted that pick. we wasted that trade too. i wear my darko jersey because not as many people have them.


I would agree that it is possible to like both, but you are the same person who preached that Darko should be taking Ben's place in the starting lineup in the playoffs. You've constantly spoke about how Ben stood in the way of Darko's development because of his supposed selfishness. My point is this. You are seemingly blind to the contribution Ben has had on Pistons basketball. So much that you don't express the slightest bit of gratitude for his role in returning us back to championship glory. However, as it pertains to Darko..you afford him every liberty in the world. He has done absolutely nothing for Pistons basketball. You obviously have an affection for players versus teams. I'm just pointing that out.


darko is good you don't have to deny that just because other people point it out. that's why i always cheered for darko i couldn't understand why so many people wanted him not to be a great player. he never did anything to anybody to deserve that. do you like wade?? he's overhyped. in the nba he's a superstar that can't miss and can't be touched. fiba he's average joe. nba is about hype believe it if you want. ben's dpoy is hype in my opinion. dude got schooled by numerous young big men last year. he got owned by shaq and made a fool of by verajao. if artest wasn't so crazy he'd be racking up the dpoy trophies.

Wade is a great player. Period. I agree that the NBA hype machine has done everything in their power to elevate him to Jordan status. Quite annoying, I admit. In fact, it bares a striking resemblance to the Darko worship we get subjected to by the Darko Hall of Fame Club (which is a joke, by the way). The only difference is that at least Wade has a championship now as a starting point for debate. No legitimate basketball analyst in the business would make such a ridiculous statement as to guarantee that Darko will be a Hall of Fame candidate. Its a stretch to even say he will be an all-star. Was Ben deserving of the Defensive Player of the Year award last year? Probably not. Being second to Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest is not such a bad thing. You'd be hard pressed to fine anyone else in the league better especially at guarding big men. He has a lot of gas in the tank and few can match his heart and determination. I will always be a fan of him and what he represents.

As inefficient as Ben is on offense, he is very statistically efficient. In other words, he doesn't take very many bad shots. There is something to be said for that... especially when you have teammates that can score the rock.

This post has nothing to do with Darko. Just defending Ben.

World Championships are a couple of weeks. We are talking about a complete NBA season. I see no comparison here. Try again. Besides, the calibur of players who played in front of them were on a whole much more talented than the Pistons starters.

marbury, richard jefferson?? better than lebron, wade??
boozer,shawn marion?? better than melo??

a lineup of rasheed wallace, mcdyess, and ben wallace isn't that easy to crack either. kaman or bosh wouldn't have cracked that lineup with only garbage minutes to prove yourself.

If one was prone to being smart, they would go back and look at the box scores for that Olympic team, and factor that the games were only 40 minutes long.

Wade was the 3rd guard, and LeBron played a lot of minutes for a 19 year old.

And yes, Boozer was much better than Melo at that time. He was the best small power forward in the NBA.

They did when they hired a coach that didn't put an emphasis on defense and when they decided to make Ben a one dimensional player again. His offense was evolving. There was a NBA championship series to back that up. Detroit is no longer a great defensive team. When they gave up the committment to "D", they effectively phased Ben out. Chicago is a better fit for him now. Period. So he left.


ben is one dimensional. don't let a few lucky jump shots in the finals fool you. ben has zero offensive game. teams caught on to that oop play him and rip run. the nba gave up the committment to D so a 1 dimensional player who has an ego problem isn't worth the 12 the pistons offered him. yes. chicago is a better fit for him.


Apples and oranges.

Dice is better than Ben. (chuckle) You'd surely get fired making that move straight up if the salaries aligned. I won't even go there.


mcdyess battled back from a possible career ending injury. he is a shell of himself and he still is better than ben. lets see what happens when ben gets a serious ankle injury or basic knee injury. arnie isn't around anymore to keep him in good health. ben simply has nothing else to fall back on besides athleticism and that's been leaving him over the last few years. mcdyess is a 20 and 10 player in this league. ben is a 10 and 11. our best lineup was with mcdyess and sheed on the floor not with ben out there. watch with increased minutes we are going to get increased production out of dice and we won't miss ben.


One thing is for certain. You are still unable to see the positives in Ben's game, but Darko's talents are obvious to you. Absolutely amazing. lol. Here is a prediction: Ben's contribution to the Bulls will have nothing to do with his offense or ability to make free throws. I would actually venture to say that they are NOT expecting to get that out of him. That's not what they payed for. They payed for defense, rebounds, steals, hustle plays and leadership. I'm betting that they WILL get that out of him. So, the only people he stands the risk of not impressing are the ones who wern't impressed with his game in the first place. I'm sure he's really torn up about that ...with that measely 60 million dollar pay check of his. lol.

no. i can see ben has a few talents. it's just in todays nba his talent doesn't make up for his shortcomings. ego, lack of size, free throw shooting, ball hog.


I would agree that it is possible to like both, but you are the same person who preached that Darko should be taking Ben's place in the starting lineup in the playoffs. You've constantly spoke about how Ben stood in the way of Darko's development because of his supposed selfishness. My point is this. You are seemingly blind to the contribution Ben has had on Pistons basketball. So much that you don't express the slightest bit of gratitude for his role in returning us back to championship glory. However, as it pertains to Darko..you afford him every liberty in the world. He has done absolutely nothing for Pistons basketball. You obviously have an affection for players versus teams. I'm just pointing that out.


ben had a contribution in the past and it was time to step aside. lindsey understands his game is on decline and he accepts a reduced role. ben wasn't willing to do that. that's what i don't like about ben. ben isn't a piston why are you defending him. you must like players versus teams.

darko should have started over ben because he is effective on both ends of the court. miami wouldn't have employed hack a darko. cleveland would have had to check darko. shaq would get tired of running endless pick and rolls with darko. the best defense against shaq is to let him tire himself out.


Wade is a great player. Period. I agree that the NBA hype machine has done everything in their power to elevate him to Jordan status. Quite annoying, I admit. In fact, it bares a striking resemblance to the Darko worship we get subjected to by the Darko Hall of Fame Club (which is a joke, by the way). The only difference is that at least Wade has a championship now as a starting point for debate.

darko had a championship first. your membership in the dhof is still pending because of that statement.


No legitimate basketball analyst in the business would make such a ridiculous statement as to guarantee that Darko will be a Hall of Fame candidate. Its a stretch to even say he will be an all-star. Was Ben deserving of the Defensive Player of the Year award last year? Probably not. Being second to Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest is not such a bad thing. You'd be hard pressed to fine anyone else in the league better especially at guarding big men. He has a lot of gas in the tank and few can match his heart and determination. I will always be a fan of him and what he represents.

basketball analyst have to play it safe. you have to be a visionary to see how good darko is going to be. you have to have blinders on not to see that he has the tools at 21 that most nba pf/c don't have 10 years into their careers. he's won a title in detroit. he's going to be a cornerstone of the orlando turnaround. him and d.howard are going to patrol the east for 10 years of thier prime.

yeah. ben did really well checking verajao and shaq. ben's defensive skills are part of the hype machine.he can't check anybody with size anymore. he is running on fumes. i question his heart now ever since he was afraid to re enter battle against darko and d.howard during crunch time.

As inefficient as Ben is on offense, he is very statistically efficient. In other words, he doesn't take very many bad shots. There is something to be said for that... especially when you have teammates that can score the rock.

This post has nothing to do with Darko. Just defending Ben.
you also have to factor in the amount of shots his teammates don't score because of ben's man. rips curls aren't as effective, tay/sheed/chauncey can't post up. ben is efficient if he was willing to play his role on offense. clean up the boards and catch oops.

If one was prone to being smart, they would go back and look at the box scores for that Olympic team, and factor that the games were only 40 minutes long.

Wade was the 3rd guard, and LeBron played a lot of minutes for a 19 year old.

And yes, Boozer was much better than Melo at that time. He was the best small power forward in the NBA.