Washington At Detroit - 8:00PM

TV: FSN (local) NBALP (national)
Radio: WDFN

The Wiz come in on a 5 game losing streak. Last loss was to Orlando 83-91 on Wed.

Team streangths (so far this season)
Scoring: Rank 8th in the league at 98.54 PPG and have a positive point differential with 95.81 Points against. Boast 2 20+ scorers in Arenas and Jamison at 26.7/21.3 respectivly.
Shot Blocking: Mainly due to Haywood who avgs 2.55 BPG
TO's 13.2/16.1 for/against.

Team Weaknesses:
Rebounding 40.3/45.7 in total rebs for/against. Assists 19.7/21.2

Injuries: Wash - none, Det - Hunter

Looks like easy prey for the Pistons tonight.




Notes: Washington's last win against the Pistons was on December 4 2002.

Washington 120 Detroit 114 ( Double OT)

BoxScore - From nba.com (http://www.nba.com/games/20051125/WASDET/boxscore.html)

Quotes-Pistons Site (http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/WASDET_051125.html)


Quotes-Wiz Site (http://www.nba.com/wizards/news/quotes_051125.html)

Tough loss. After trailing for most of the game the Pistons cameback early in the 4th seemingly on way to pushing the game up to 10+ points and winning in fashion as we are used to are thwarted by Chuckie Atkins 4 triples in less than 2 mins of play.

Sheed stepped up big 33 points ( career high as a Piston ) and 11 boards making up for Rip's off night and Bens foul troubled game. Tay filled in on the glass with 6 offensive boards ( he only had 3 total prior to tonight).

Without Ben and Billups in the 2nd OT and almost perfect free-throw shooting by the Wiz in the 2nd OT the Pistons just could not get it done.

Guys I have an extra ticket to the game. My buddy can't go so if someone is interested please let me know pporada@hotmail.com

,,,but I gotta take the family to "the battle of the bands" tonight. So enjoy the game everyone. Champs 109-93....my bruddahs.

This looks like a game that can potentially be high scoring.

I agree with BrotherHQ

Pistons 109 Wiz 92 ( missed free throw )

This is not good. Pistons down by 17 with 8:15 to go in the second Q.

Wizards came to play. Pistons getting outboarded 19-11.

Jamison was this good a rebounder. 14 boards in the third? C'mon Pistons.

Good thing they fouled him out. He was killing them with the three-ball. I put a missing-person's ad out for Rip.

Jamison was this good a rebounder. 14 boards in the third? C'mon Pistons.

Jamison had 13 boards at halftime! Chucky was a killer tonight. Arroyo could not stop him. CB had to come in foul him out, but the offense stalled after that. Still looking for Rip:confused: Can he save us and get the winning shot?

Rip turns in a real stinker. I'm listening to the game on the radio. Is someone on the Wiz playing great D on him? Sheed really kept them in this one. Glad he got the last shot. If Detroit gets something, ANYTHING, from Rip, they win it in regulation.

See, this is what happens when you try to outscore people instead of defending well. Furthermore, this game is a perfect example of why LB would pull guys with 2 early fouls. Ben has been on the bench all night with fouls.

Not only is no one stopping Arenas, Atkins of all people was having a field day.

...and I have had it 10 games into the year with players going all the way to the rim (a la Butler) and no one even takes a step toward the guy to try and block the shot. Call me crazy.

See, this is what happens when you try to outscore people instead of defending well. Furthermore, this game is a perfect example of why LB would pull guys with 2 early fouls. Ben has been on the bench all night with fouls.

Not only is no one stopping Arenas, Atkins of all people was having a field day.

...and I have had it 10 games into the year with players going all the way to the rim (a la Butler) and no one even takes a step toward the guy to try and block the shot. Call me crazy.

And too many ill advised posession where we hoist up junk instead of working for a good shot.

there is no reason on earth to lose at home to Washington. ESPECIALLY when they are on a 5 game skid. This game sucked.:mad:

BEN!!!! Aw man, we're headed for double OT. GO PISTONS!!

23 three-pointers tonight. Man, too many. I didn't expect Ben to make that free throw, but he saves the Pistons AGAIN. Hey, Rip, where are you buddy? :attention

If our guards aren't going to defend, they'd damn well better help out with rebounds when our bigs go to clean up their messes. Poor game all around by our backcourt except for Arroyo. When they took him out for Billups, the lead slipped away.

Our starters have certainly earned a lot of slack, but that doesn't give them a free pass. We should have seen much more of the bench tonight. As for Chucky, he was just unconscious. Even when he was guarded he was scoring from a couple feet beyond the arc.

Flip has Arroyo guarding Arenas?:doh:

Is anyone else stopping him?

Is anyone else stopping him?

Hell, at the least you don't want to guarantee that he'll score. Apparently, 'Gross Los' couldn't keep Atkins from droppin 20 on his %%%%%.

what the hell was with all the outside shooting?

Indy and the Spurs both lose tonight. Indy loses to Atlanta. :laugh: I don't know what I'm laughing about, Detroit lost to Washington. At home. :mad:

Nice to see that Arroyo's 20 pts (4 pts / 8 Asts) of contribution are trumped by Atkins 24 (20 pts / 2 Asts). No use getting the extra minutes if you're going to come out on the minus side against Chucky Atkins....my god.:tsk:

:confused: :P :help: :noidea: :puke:

Hell, at the least you don't want to guarantee that he'll score. Apparently, 'Gross Los' couldn't keep Atkins from droppin 20 on his %%%%%.

carlos arroyo was the one that got the pistons back into the game. chucky atkins just got very hot. it's one of those things you don't expect to happen. you still in love with lb huh. with lb back carlos arroyo never would have hit the court to get our offense rolling anyway.

this game was just a game where both of our backcourt players didn't have the best game. it happens like that sometimes. i just hope tonight's heavy minutes don't impact us tommorow.

Chucky (I shoulda got a ring) Atkins was the key here even though he fouled out an hour before this one was over:doh:. A lot od bad tonught, where do I start:frusty:

Except for the latter part of the third and the opening minutes of the 4th, the defense was in lapse mode. Pistons build a 8 point lead with the help of Arroyo, only to have Chucky torch him for 3 of his 4 threes in a two minute span. Chucky's zone performance and the standing ovation by the Piston faithful gave him when he fouled out, seem to have rob the Pistons of the their offensive run and they seemingly played catchup the rest of the game. :confused:

Rip was MIA the whole game. CB should have deferred back to the hot man SHeed during that first OT instead of trying trying to be the hero with his tired threes. (too many of those tonight)

I know it was close game, but it is time to start trusting Maxiel in these type of games.

Nice to see that Arroyo's 20 pts (4 pts / 8 Asts) of contribution are trumped by Atkins 24 (20 pts / 2 Asts). No use getting the extra minutes if you're going to come out on the minus side against Chucky Atkins....my god.:tsk:
I didn't see the game, so I won't comment on specifics. Judging for what others had written down, niether Arroyo,CB or anybody else was able to stop Arenas or Chucky. Of course, I should know better: in case you need a scapegoat, blame on the backup PG.:nod: :confused:

Nice to see that Arroyo's 20 pts (4 pts / 8 Asts) of contribution are trumped by Atkins 24 (20 pts / 2 Asts). No use getting the extra minutes if you're going to come out on the minus side against Chucky Atkins....my god.
Chauncey isn't doing anyone favours with his perimeter D. Arroyo and crew did bail us out the other night against Denver when the starters weren't exactly playing like world beaters.
And too many ill advised posession where we hoist up junk instead of working for a good shot.
How quickly Brown's stuff has been forgotten.

Our starters have certainly earned a lot of slack, but that doesn't give them a free pass. We should have seen much more of the bench tonight.
Big fear of mine in the Flip era. Who is in charge? CB? Flip? Is there so much respect for the players that they are above reproach? Soft D is NOT Detroit basketball. And it's becoming a trend.
carlos arroyo was the one that got the pistons back into the game. chucky atkins just got very hot. it's one of those things you don't expect to happen. you still in love with lb huh. with lb back carlos arroyo never would have hit the court to get our offense rolling anyway.
When LB was here, the defense was held to a higher standard than we are seeing early this season.
I know it was close game, but it is time to start trusting Maxiel in these type of games.
FREE THE BRAHMA!

I didn't see the game, so I won't comment on specifics. Judging for what others had written down, niether Arroyo,CB or anybody else was able to stop Arenas or Chucky. Of course, I should know better: in case you need a scapegoat, blame on the backup PG.:nod: :confused:

Chuckie was taking very tough shots and Arroyo was in his face the whole time. Billups could not have done any better. It was an incredible shooting display.

Washington had to win sometime. And there were a lot of questionable calls that game. Call the offensive foul when Ben clearly took the charge late in the 4th and the Jamison 3 would never had happened. Pistons would have won right there. Arenas got a few thrown his way. I know Arenas is a Star but I have not seen a whistle like that since Larry Bird.

carlos arroyo was the one that got the pistons back into the game. chucky atkins just got very hot. it's one of those things you don't expect to happen. you still in love with lb huh. with lb back carlos arroyo never would have hit the court to get our offense rolling anyway.

this game was just a game where both of our backcourt players didn't have the best game. it happens like that sometimes. i just hope tonight's heavy minutes don't impact us tommorow.



Please...

There's no way in hades that you are going to get me to believe that we owe 'gross los' a debt of gratitude for getting torched by Atkins all night. Just because you dribble around the arena with glitter and sparklers doesn't make you the player of the game. He gave a semi-solid effort on ONE end of the floor. That is unacceptable to me.

If you want to thank someone, thank Tayshaun & Rasheed. Sheed defended, rebounded, and scored his buttocks off tonight and the rest of these yahoos (coach included) helped us lose tonight. Most plays you can see that Prince is the only one going at 100% and he is visibly frustrated with the lack of effort from the rest of the guys on the defensive end. If you notice, he's the ONLY one concerned with the defensive effort and rebounding when he's interviewed and it shows on the court.

So called eastern contenders, Pistons, Heat, and Pacers all fall at home, with the Pistons putting up the biggest fight. Spurs fall at home too and surprising Clippers lose on the road.

So this was a Black Friday for the NBA Contenders and Best Buy, Circuit City retailers etc......:eyebrows:

I think pinning this one on Flip and CA is pretty lame, to be honest with you. There are a lot of people who need to shoulder the blame (decidedly NOT Rasheed). Carlos actually did his job tonite, and Atkins was hitting some ridiculous shots.

I am also frankly a little frustrated with you only showing up when we lose, just so you can rag on Flip (without giving him any credit when we win). You didn't seem to be jumping on LB's case every time we lost last year. Don't get me wrong-I think you're a terrific poster and really add a lot. But that is getting to me a little.

FYI-Washington shot 36% tonite. I really don't think our defense was the problem. We gave up way too many offensive boards, which I think hurt us, especially in the OT periods.

couldn't see the game again,but as i can see we lost a heartbreaker in 2oT's at least san antonio lost too and we still have the best record i was expecting chauncey to mess up gilbert again, but it didn't happen. lets see if the pistons can make it up tommorow aganst milwaukee.

I think pinning this one on Flip and CA is pretty lame, to be honest with you. There are a lot of people who need to shoulder the blame (decidedly NOT Rasheed). Carlos actually did his job tonite, and Atkins was hitting some ridiculous shots.

I am also frankly a little frustrated with you only showing up when we lose, just so you can rag on Flip (without giving him any credit when we win). You didn't seem to be jumping on LB's case every time we lost last year. Don't get me wrong-I think you're a terrific poster and really add a lot. But that is getting to me a little.

FYI-Washington shot 36% tonite. I really don't think our defense was the problem. We gave up way too many offensive boards, which I think hurt us, especially in the OT periods.

I think everyones emotions run high after a tough loss like this. Especially one in which we should have won. These things happen. I still challenge anyone to make a case how our defense is any worse than this exact same time last season. Records heck of a lot better anyway. If the Pistons cannot hold opponents under 100 in the playoffs and get knocked out early then I will doubt Flip.

Give this new system a chance.

I'll be interested on how they will ratchet up the defense. There's a lot of loose screws.

Ok, first of all, I hated to see all those threes go in from Chucky, but still I was glad to see him do well. 6 of 7 triples. Pretty darn good.

Next, Evans. Found a use for the guy. He did a fine job guarding Arenas. Against small forwards he is nowhere. But he guarded Arenas darn well, keeping Arenas from doing much for quite a stretch.

Arroyo was cooking in the 4th quarter. Looked like we were going to win this one easily in the end, but Atkins lit it up. Darn.

A twenty to 2 run mostly in the 1st quarter with our starters in got us in trouble. Don't blame this one on the bench guys. But an 8 man rotation sure does not work too well in a double overtime game. Can't see any excuse not to include Darko and Delfino in this game. None at all. We lost. So what. But we wiped our starters out. Big deal.

Rip was not getting even close to making his shots. And he could not hang onto the ball either. Except he did get a lot of rebounds.

CB continually drove on Atkins, making his shots at the line, and eventually fouling Atkins out, but too late to stop that 20 point game from Chucky. Maybe CB should have stayed in just a bit longer until Chucky was fouled out. Then let Arroyo do his thing. Just a thought. Hind sight is great ain't it.

Sheed was doing his damage from close in a whole lot. Not real close, but about close enough to call it inside play. Ben gave us way too little offense, and there were times we passed up wide open shots to go inside to him. Lacking confidence. Hey, shooters shoot.

Dyess just missed a double double. For sure, he got a whole lot of minutes in this one. The Wizards are a good team, despite that 5 game losing streak. Lets see what happens next. We have now lost 2 of 3. Bad trend. Time for Flip to change something. Get the bench more involved. Getting real late. It was 35 to 40 mph on the way home tonight. Man I'm tired. GO PISTONS!!!!!

with flip is that he won't sub out his starters when they are playing like crap. evans was doing a pretty good job on arenas why sub rip back in?? rip was stinking the gym up, not playing D, throwing the ball away and missing shots. arroyo was really outplaying cb so why not give him more minutes. tonights game was won by chucky atkins heroics.

so many people on this forum talk about earning it as to why the bench doesn't play. but tonight and many other nights the starters aren't earning it. i think flip needs to cut someone's minutes to get the point across to the starting 6. right now they feel thier minutes are a given and they don't have to give absolute 100% to get thier minutes.

i wonder if darko would have hit that free throw that ben missed???

i taped the game, only got to watch the 1st quarter, the end of regulation, and parts of the OTs. not gonna be too concerned over this game either - rip got 5 or 6 straight open looks in the 1st quarter, he just wasn't hitting his shot tonight. i wish they called the delfino free throw play though at the end of regulation...what a finish that would have been. the missed layup by mcdyess reminded me of the MSU game heh.

keep in mind the thread about people saying they'd be happy with an 8-5 november, and here we stand 9-2, losing in double OT to a respectable ball club that was absolutely DESPERATE for a win.

obviously our defense wasn't *that* bad if washington shot 36% - no starter for either team came close to 50% shooting.

Didn't get to see it but from the box score and comments: Way too many minutes for the starters. If you keep someone fresh for the end, the result may have changed. I have seen Rip in those missing modes. He should have been pulled. Can't comment on the rest--have to see it. What's double bad is now we are tired--all for a loss. When you play the regular season, you try and win games at the end and we usually do. Not this time. But 50 plus minutes for the starters--ouch! And a loss at home while we were rested. And why is the team coming out of the blocks so slowly after being rested?

I think pinning this one on Flip and CA is pretty lame, to be honest with you. There are a lot of people who need to shoulder the blame (decidedly NOT Rasheed). Carlos actually did his job tonite, and Atkins was hitting some ridiculous shots.

I am also frankly a little frustrated with you only showing up when we lose, just so you can rag on Flip (without giving him any credit when we win). You didn't seem to be jumping on LB's case every time we lost last year. Don't get me wrong-I think you're a terrific poster and really add a lot. But that is getting to me a little.

FYI-Washington shot 36% tonite. I really don't think our defense was the problem. We gave up way too many offensive boards, which I think hurt us, especially in the OT periods.

You are welcome to think what you like. I just don't have to agree with you.

I show up to post when I see things that I feel like commenting on. When things are going extremely well, there's no need for me to detail that. I'm satisfied.

When things are not going well. I see things that should be corrected or done better or not done at all. I'm just as happy when we win as the rest of you. I just don't generally feel like coming in here to pour syrup all over the forum like the rest of the slappys do.

Arenas goes for 40 and Atkins even gets 20 and you don't think defense was an issue eh? We should have pounded these guys tonight, yet we take a double overtime loss at home in the middle of their 5 game skid.

Furthermore, I didn't have to jump on LB last year because I agreed with his coaching. Simple enough I think. IMO Arroyo only played on one end of the floor. I can't stand guys that do that. So what if he dished out 8 dimes if he gave it all back on the other end. Guys in here act like Chucky called the other four lions and formed Voltron before taking all his shots. I watched that guy suck in Detroit for much longer than I should have had to and him coming off the bench for the Wizards and dropping Andrew Jackson on us should have never even been part of the equation.

Last year at this time the Pistons were 5-6 and were letting in 97.5 PPG.

I show up to post when I see things that I feel like commenting on. When things are going extremely well, there's no need for me to detail that. I'm satisfied.

When things are not going well. I see things that should be corrected or done better or not done at all. I'm just as happy when we win as the rest of you. I just don't generally feel like coming in here to pour syrup all over the forum like the rest of the slappys do.

Well, you're upfront at least.

Just for the record, what are your "Moderator" responsibilities? If I'm not allowed to Ignore you, at least I might draw some comfort from knowing you're doing a lot of positive things behind the scenes.

chucky was a decent backup to have. In case you dont remember he could hit shots like that when he was here and if you think he did not have this game marked on his calender then you are just plain dumb. When you trade away a player you should expect him to come in and do his damndest to try and beat you. (even blaha gave him props for his lights out shooting) if you take away the chucky factor it wasnt even a close game.

The fact is washington is a playoff team who came to ball and the pistons got beat.

I didnt watch the game but I listened to the 4th and overtime but looking at the box score they got to the line way more than we did going 38-46 shooting .826 meenwhile the pistons shot 26-33 for a % of .788 that is 13 more attempts then us

and to say we played horrible d on arenas well he lit up minnie for 33 on the 17th denver he dropped 36 on the 22nd and the 39 against us last night he is on a roll he is 4th in the league in scoring behind kobe ai and lebron scoring 26.7

besides billups and arenas usually set the tone for their teams arenas tore it up last night while billups shots were not dropping the two go head to head and it is a great matchup so what they got the best of us this time we play them what 3 or 4 more times bet on the pistons (billups) to be ready

You are welcome to think what you like. I just don't have to agree with you.

I show up to post when I see things that I feel like commenting on. When things are going extremely well, there's no need for me to detail that. I'm satisfied.

When things are not going well. I see things that should be corrected or done better or not done at all. I'm just as happy when we win as the rest of you. I just don't generally feel like coming in here to pour syrup all over the forum like the rest of the slappys do.

Arenas goes for 40 and Atkins even gets 20 and you don't think defense was an issue eh? We should have pounded these guys tonight, yet we take a double overtime loss at home in the middle of their 5 game skid.

Furthermore, I didn't have to jump on LB last year because I agreed with his coaching. Simple enough I think. IMO Arroyo only played on one end of the floor. I can't stand guys that do that. So what if he dished out 8 dimes if he gave it all back on the other end. Guys in here act like Chucky called the other four lions and formed Voltron before taking all his shots. I watched that guy suck in Detroit for much longer than I should have had to and him coming off the bench for the Wizards and dropping Andrew Jackson on us should have never even been part of the equation.
I really wish you would lay off the condecending slappy remarks dude we are fans not idiots you are not the only one in here who is not happy about the loss but keep the bs comments to yourself mod or not it is uncalled for

PS chucky got us into the playoffs as our point guard so he could not have sucked that bad

chucky was a decent backup to have. In case you dont remember he could hit shots like that when he was here and if you think he did not have this game marked on his calender then you are just plain dumb. When you trade away a player you should expect him to come in and do his damndest to try and beat you. (even blaha gave him props for his lights out shooting) if you take away the chucky factor it wasnt even a close game.

The fact is washington is a playoff team who came to ball and the pistons got beat.

I didnt watch the game but I listened to the 4th and overtime but looking at the box score they got to the line way more than we did going 38-46 shooting .826 meenwhile the pistons shot 26-33 for a % of .788 that is 13 more attempts then us

and to say we played horrible d on arenas well he lit up minnie for 33 on the 17th denver he dropped 36 on the 22nd and the 39 against us last night he is on a roll he is 4th in the league in scoring behind kobe ai and lebron scoring 26.7

besides billups and arenas usually set the tone for their teams arenas tore it up last night while billups shots were not dropping the two go head to head and it is a great matchup so what they got the best of us this time we play them what 3 or 4 more times bet on the pistons (billups) to be ready
Don't be fooled by one game. Atkins came into the game shooting 23% for Washington. And hardly playing at all. Now Washington is hoping someone sees this one performance and they can trade him to the next team. I know Atkins did well in this game. But also note Billups continually got points off Atkins when matched up with him. Most nights, thats the story with Atkins. He might give you points, but he always gives the other team points.

We had no real answer for Caron Butler. That guy was getting it done on both ends. It says three steals but it seemed like he deflected a lot more passes that went out of bounds.

This team needs a microwave. I like our bench...rather the bench's potential. I wouldn't mind this team being able to field 6 starters. Right now its like 5 starters and some other guys. They're all about moderately effective compared to the rest of the team.

The team still takes a long time to start playing. We basically give up the first quarter and try to play 3 quarters of basketball. Maybe less. But on a positive note, that come back was awesome.

This wouldn't have been as bad of a loss IMO if we played the whole game and then lost it.We still seem to think we can turn it on whenever we want to.Well sometimes you can but that is not the attitude to have because we see the result.

We are 9-2 great record for the changes and wondering what was going to happen this year.The lack of a consistent defensive effort is alarming though because that wins games.Hard to complain when our record is good but this trend of playing part of the game and spotty defense when we get to some of the better teams is gonna bite us in the arse.

We had no real answer for Caron Butler. That guy was getting it done on both ends. It says three steals but it seemed like he deflected a lot more passes that went out of bounds.

This team needs a microwave. I like our bench...rather the bench's potential. I wouldn't mind this team being able to field 6 starters. Right now its like 5 starters and some other guys. They're all about moderately effective compared to the rest of the team.

The team still takes a long time to start playing. We basically give up the first quarter and try to play 3 quarters of basketball. Maybe less. But on a positive note, that come back was awesome.

Guys like Caron Butler are why. As good as Evans did on Arenas, and he was very good, he was that bad and moreso guarding Butler. We absolutely need a different solution at this position besides Evans. And I hope Flip goes looking for one soon from his own roster. If its not there, we need to pick up a free agent or do a trade.

Don't be fooled by one game. Atkins came into the game shooting 23% for Washington. And hardly playing at all. Now Washington is hoping someone sees this one performance and they can trade him to the next team. I know Atkins did well in this game. But also note Billups continually got points off Atkins when matched up with him. Most nights, thats the story with Atkins. He might give you points, but he always gives the other team points.


i said he was a backup i did not call chucky an allstar or a lock down defender however to totally dicredit him as low did is not fair he was our point guard before we got billups and we made it to the playoffs that does not mean oh he is great or anything just give the guy a little respect. i said he had the game marked on his calender he had a very good game against his former team thats all.

i wonder if darko would have hit that free throw that ben missed???

The real question should be: Would Darko have stuck the putback and then made the free throw?

no the real question gazoo is if he would have even grabbed the rebound or if it would have slipped off his fingers and went out of bounds :D

Last year at this time the Pistons were 5-6 and were letting in 97.5 PPG.

I think this is a helpful point in all the Flip vs. LB, new pistons vs. old pistons debate. It's just too early (just as it was too early when the Pistons were 8-0 to herald Flip as a savior). People may come back and say, well Ben was out for 6 games at the beginning of last year, and LB was having his surgery, but I still think that even over the long haul, the Pistons were just a little better on defense under LB and more than a little worse on offense.

Here's another issue and this is just an impression, but it has seemed to me over the past couple of years that there is a psychological issue at work here. At least, I've often felt frustrated that the Pistons (under both coaches) seem to need to have their backs to the wall before they get serious on defense (and for me there's no question that their defensive intensity appears to transfer to more aggressiveness and more fluidity and rhythm on offense). LB didn't seem to solve that problem and neither has Flip. On the one hand, maybe that's not a big deal -- after all, they've had terrific success in recent seasons and they can certainly pull it off often enough against mediocre and poor teams, and even sometimes against very good teams. But I do think it is part of what separates excellent teams from dominating ones.

The Pistons, on the floor, need to develop the psychological habit of playing at the same level regardless of the quality of the opponent, regardless of the score. No doubt that partly lies with the coach, but this isn't high school, or even college. These guys are grown men and professionals so I feel the responsibility lies primarily with the players and especially with their emotional leaders (who I think are probably Ben, Chauncey, and Sheed). I don't want them to lose entirely that loose sense of confidence they seem to have, even when they are down. But maybe just to ratchet up the sense of urgency, regardless of the situation. Can they make those two coexist?

Apart from that, I think it's probably too early in this campaign to draw too many conclusions about the play of individual players or about the coaching. I get as annoyed as the next guy with losses like last night's, but I think it's good (at least it helps me keep my sanity) to also take the long view and get a little perspective on things.

Ya know what, screw it. Have a great year guys!:peace:

I have nothing but love for big Ben but the question I have is if flip went with the Sheed and Dyess lineup in OT how would we have done? Granted Ben fouled out and that is the way it ended up out of necessity but I am not sure if we were down already or not. I don’t know if Ben would take it as a slap in the face or not but to get more of an offensive lineup out there in OT is not a bad idea. Lb went to that lineup occasionally with some moderate success. I understand Ben brings the little things like rebounds and hustle but substitutions can be made for offensive defensive purposes i.e. we have the ball after a free throw sub in Dyess and then commit a foul (given we are not over the limit) and bring Ben back in for him

I don’t know the facts on how effective that is but imo it only makes sense its like when you come out of a time out and you are down 3 you bring in your 3 point shooters with a set play for a 3

I am surprised nobody else brought up the point that we executed poorly after timeouts with little success in finding an easy bucket (lbs bread and butter) I am not ready to say flip hasn’t got the goods based of 1 close game and poor execution (I didn’t see the game but listened to it) so maybe I missed it so lets just say it is something to keep an eye on

no the real question gazoo is if he would have even grabbed the rebound or if it would have slipped off his fingers and went out of bounds :D

Yes, that is a BETTER question. I do agree with bballjay's premise, however. I don't like this 8-man rotation BS at all. I want Delfino and Darko in there. These guys need to play to get better. I'm thinking Darko didn't play because Wash. is a perimeter team and Darko wouldn't have much to defend. I'm not so concerned about his defense. I want to see what he can do on offense. He's supposed to be this offensive wizard in practice. I want him to be given a shot on the court. If we're going to keep these guys around, they need to develop. People say, "Oh, it's early in the season." The season is one-eighth over. It is not too early. As for Delfino, I was not sold on him at all because of his past whining, but he's got the quicks on offense for sure. And as Lee has said, he handles the ball pretty well. We can whine about Delfino and Arroyo not playing defense, but the starting 5 ain't playing great D either.

1) We got beat on the boards. I know it was technically even (so the stats say) but we have to outrebound a smaller club like the Wizards. They got too many second-chance opportunities.

2) Rip was terrible. I'm not in the "Dump Rip because he had a bad game" club. But last night was definitely bad. He is a much, much better player within the flow of the offense. That's where he is very dangerous. When he misses some shots, though, he starts pressing and trying to do more than he can. That's when he starts playing out of control and turning the ball over. Flip has to be unafraid to pull him and talk to him when he starts doing that just to calm him down and then stick him back in the game.

3) I thought we should have gone to 'Sheed more in the post early in the game (when we went down 17 or whatever). Washington has no one on their team that has even a prayer of guarding him down there.

4) Chucky Atkins, he of the 23% shooting percentage and 2+ points per game, hit some ridiculous threes. I'm going to avoid drawing any conclusions based on that, which will probably happen to him once more this year (at most).

I do want to say that I thought Rasheed was phenomenal and that should not go unrecognized just because we lost. He almost saved the game for us.

Overall, I'm pretty pleased with Mo Evans but not 100% convinced he's the answer as the backup SF. He seems to be better suited to the backup SG position. I would not be shocked to see Joe D try to deal for a backup 3 at some point before the trading deadline, because Tay is logging way too many minutes again.

I think we need to play Darko or trade him. What we're doing right now is a bit of a waste because he isn't getting enough time to really develop and if we don't think we can afford to give that time to him, we should move him and get something of value back. We have a bit of a wasted asset (whichever way you look at it) sitting on the bench.

Listen everyone. We are Ok and will improve with the players we have until the Rings come. Chemisrty is more important then the best players. We have very good players and good chemistry. 9-2 isn't bad. Remember we are still learning each other , new members, as well as , Flip's new system.:nod: LAST NIGHTS LOSS GOT TO ME BECAUSE I FEEL THERE WAS SUCH POOR EXECUTION AND DECISION MAKING AND APPARANT LACK OF COACHING AMD/OR LISTENING TO THE COACH. :doh: This will improve.

Why didn't CB continue taking it to the basket vs the 3's. My God I could just hear that coach during the Bad Boy's era going bonkers. You break out by 10 in a very close game you need to bring your DEFENSE to play and quick.Second three pointer TIME OUT !!! Deliberate effective basketball. If this is LB style then there are times during a game when it is important to use this ability. Players always need coaching and the Coach needs to be in CONTROL

Don't get me wrong about Flip. Coach is a human too. He doesn't have all the answers or knowledge. Flip for instance , doesn't know the capabilities of his players yet. We have been watching them for several years. He will learn and be able to much better use the GREAT pieces of a Championship Puzzle that he has been provided. Practice vs real game tight situations are two different things. Only with many more close games under his belt will he be able to effectively coach this group to another Championship.:rockon:

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Scholas - yes it is too early to tell. I do have to respect The Low for comming out and saying exactly whats on his mind. And he is not alone as many feel that way - just admit it if thats how you feel.

Is the defense worse? Like you said its too early to tell. The defense sucked for the entire 1st half of last season pretty much so its hard to get an accurate gage. Flip is still learning his team and the players are still learning him. Thank goodness we did not have to suffer through an adjustment faze that was accompanied by a losing start as the East is not so weak anymore.

The Jeckyl/Hyde attitude not only on defense but in all areas has been here since Carlisle. Its frusterating, I do not know why. Like you wrote LB did not find a solution either.

One thing is for sure 54 wins is not going to cut it this season. Pistons can win 1, maybe 2 7-game road series in a row but not 3 - thats not going to happen. These early wins are very important. Pistons had the best start and do not even have the top seed anymore. SAN is 10-2

Just for the record, what are your "Moderator" responsibilities? If I'm not allowed to Ignore you, at least I might draw some comfort from knowing you're doing a lot of positive things behind the scenes.

This quote from Lanierfan was directed at The Low and was a Low blow. Why is everyone down on a guy for expressing his opinion? I can't see why you would want to ignore someone because their opinion doesn't mesh with yours.

Last year the Larry Brown forum bashing was reaching a crescendo....and Larry had just won a championship. This year one guy dares to buck the trend and we're all over him??

All good points. Could there have been some sympathy by the refs last night? I am talking overall conspiracy, refs are human and saw a 5-game losing team get the game pulled out from underneath them. 2 questionable calls late in the 4th that would have been the game. Ben taking the charge and getting a blocking foul that allowed Wash to kick it out to Jamison for a 3. And Arenas using his off-arm to knock Chauncey out of the way with Chauncy getting the foul. Either of those calls would have resulted in a Pistons win.

Arenas shot 10-32 and seemed to get most of his calls not on drives but on el-cheepo perimiter calls.

Yes and something has to be done with Darko. Next game Darko has to come out and bring a little more offense as he does seem to act like he has all the time in the world.

On Rip. He will have games like this but many times he has been able to turn it around in the 4th. That did not happen last night.

Rebounding? This is one area I agree needs improvement. Team should make it a priority to focus on boxing out and not letting guys like Butler sail in for easy putbacks.

Last year the Larry Brown forum bashing was reaching a crescendo....and Larry had just won a championship. This year one guy dares to buck the trend and we're all over him??

I like people who buck trends, 'bills. I still wear bellbottoms and would very much like to get shag carpeting in my home. That being said, I hope Low doesn't disappear (like shag carpeting and bellbottoms). We need balance on here. The Pistons, though 9-2, have some glaring holes you could drive a Mack truck through (every team does). No harm in The Low pointing them out.

Scholas - yes it is too early to tell. I do have to respect The Low for comming out and saying exactly whats on his mind. And he is not alone as many feel that way - just admit it if thats how you feel.

Of course of course. I actually have no problem with Low saying what he says. And I don't care if he only posts to criticize or what have you. I've only been subscribed to the forum for about a week anyway, so I've no idea what back history there was to people's reactions to Low's post. I certainly didn't intend my post to discourage anyone from posting their own opinions and impressions. Apologies if it was taken that way by anyone out there.

Clearly, the Pistons have exhibited certain weaknesses already this season, in spite of the excellent start. There are issues that both individual players and the coaching staff might address. There are a number of very tough teams out there that the Pistons will have to improve in order to defeat in the playoffs. It's certainly not too early for people to make those points.

I only think it is too early to tell whether or not the coaching staff and players will identify those weaknesses accurately and make an intelligent sustained effort to remedy them. In that regard, I remain hopeful partly because I'm congenitally optimistic and partly because both the team and the coach have a pretty decent track record.

My issue with The Low's comments were not directed at "not drinking the kool-aid." One of the things I like best about him as a poster is that he doesn't just toe the party line. And I think dissent is healthy.

My problem was that he immediately scapegoats Flip every time (both times) we lose (he did so at halftime of the Boston game as well). If you follow his comments to their logical conclusion, when the P's lost last year it must have been the players' fault (since he stated that he didn't disagree with LB's coaching) but when we lose this year it's Flip's fault. That really is inconsistent.

The fact is that both coaches have their pluses and minuses. LB was clearly a superior defensive coach but his offense left something to be desired. Flip is offensively extremely strong but just so-so on the other side of the ball.

It's fine to say we need to defend better (although I don't agree that was the problem in the Washington game). However, it would be nice if he acknowledged that there is no way we put up 108 on Philly, 111 on Phoenix, 117 on Toronto, and 114 on Denver with LB running the team. Credit where credit is due is all I ask.

The Low I think has fallen into a trap. He came into the year expecting Flip to flop (he said as much on the DetNews forum last year). So all of his evaluations of the team this year are a function of that prism through which he is looking. When the team does poorly he says "I told you so" while selectively filtering out anything positive that might contradict his preconceived notion that the team this year will be worse with Flip as coach.

All I am asking is an objective assessment rather than one that was predetermined before the season started, and consistency in recognizing the improvements over last year's system as well as the areas that we still need to work on.

Well that had to go down as one of the more intense games of the year... not enough fingers to count lost opps to win this one... but sheet happens and ya move on.
Yes that was one of Chuckit's shining moments... he's always been good for a couple crazy shooting nights... which doesn't come close to offsetting his gosh-awful defense and poor team play ... in his last year as a Piston he penetrated and dished only two times up to the trade deadline (yes I kept track).... that said I'll bet we trade for his expiring contract.

I though C.A. was having an excellent floor game... he was not overdribbling... consistently finding the open man for the easy shots... just a solid "O" performance from our setup man.

Our PG's have taken a lot of critisism for their lack of "D" on dribble drives.... but when you think about it... how many PG's excel at keeping their man in front of them?
The only two that come to mind is Baron Davis and L.H.
With the crossovers and picks it's nearly impossible to keep a decent PG from getting inside.... so we have to do a better job of show & recover from the other four players.... we don't want to use help and then have their bigs wide open for dunks either... Sydney Lowe brought up the point that wingmen need to help more underneath.

I can't think of a worse team to play after a double OT game than the run and gun Bucks.... TJ is gonna go off tonight.
I would imagine the bench will play plenty.
Let's see a litle Darko vs Bogut...
Ya think Flip is seeing some of what LB was in DMC?... nawwww that couldn't be right!
BTW, LB played his rooks major minutes today in an OT win against Philly...
Funny sight: Frye is rubbing LB's back while the other Rookie (Robinson) is telling Larry how to design a play... and LB is agreeing with him.:grouphug: :pound:

[quote=The Low]You are welcome to think what you like. I just don't have to agree with you.

I show up to post when I see things that I feel like commenting on. When things are going extremely well, there's no need for me to detail that. I'm satisfied.

When things are not going well. I see things that should be corrected or done better or not done at all. I'm just as happy when we win as the rest of you. I just don't generally feel like coming in here to pour syrup all over the forum like the rest of the slappys do.quote]

The only problem with the post made by the Low imo is the fact that he has repeatedly made comments such as the 1 I put in bold. The fact is he could say whatever he wants about the team and that is fine. I can live with him saying the game sucked the team played like crap they cant guard anyone hey great.
However to make comments such as the slappys is uncalled for. To disagree with a thought/opinion fine but dont talk sh.. about the other members of the forum. With him being a mod he should show some restraint in that area.
The point of the forum is to give pistons fans a home, a place to talk/learn/vent/enjoy or whatever the team not take pot shots at other posters. That is just my presumption this is not my baby like Micro but I would want people to have respect for other peoples opinions.

Right or wrong an opinion is simply that. It should not result in hurt feelings and in no way should divide people. Unless of course you root for Miami or Indy or the Knicks

Like I wrote there is nothing wrong with someone coming out with their honest opinion. Seems like there was a presidence set earlier this season of LB being a "Verboten" topic and yet its been comming out in other passive ways.

Lets get off the denial fest and admit what we are really thinking.

Nothing wrong with questioning a new coach 11 games into the season when the prior one won a title.

I happen to agree with the coaching change and truly believe the team will be better but its still too early to claim victory.

Time to move onto the next game.

Abe,
I have to say this is the most cooperative Piston forum out there... I mean others make this one look like a Church service.
I think the mods have done an excellent job of not letting things get out of hand... I've been guilty of getting into regretful battles... and noone comes out ahead (insert sappy icon here).

Does anyone think we may have erred by embarrassing our opponent. We were pretty much having our way until Los started the Curly Neal re-enactment, entertaining as it was.

Didn't stick around long enough to catch the interviews, but I'm curious to hear how much CA enjoyed the Chucksters barrage.