I have to say that it really sucks beyond sucking to sit here and watch Ben manhandle rebounds for the stinkin Bulls. Even in light minutes tonight...he's not jokin. I doubt he'll play much more tonight, but it's extremely painful to watch him man the middle for the enemy.

I want my bigbenback, bigbenback, bigbenback, bigbenback, bigbenback, ...

I want my bigbenback, bigbenback, bigbenback, bigbenback, bigbenback, ...


LMAO! You gotta stop, man. Seriously! :pound:

I have to say that it really sucks beyond sucking to sit here and watch Ben manhandle rebounds for the stinkin Bulls. Even in light minutes tonight...he's not jokin. I doubt he'll play much more tonight, but it's extremely painful to watch him man the middle for the enemy.

Low, how are you watching Ben at all? He's not on NBATV. Your profile says you are from Las Vegas. So...was it on League Pass? It just ended but I couldn't find it on my NBATV. I thought preseason wasn't on League Pass. I definitely would have watched that game. Painful as it might have been.

Just got done watching the recorded Bulls game here in Chicago. Ben looked like he was in mid season form. I think he was making a conscious effort to "set the tone" for the team. He was helping on D, hustling after guards, ripping down rebounds with that signature wrist over the top style, and of course blocking shots (although somehow he was only credited with 1 block). Also, he got a lot of passes cutting to the hoop, the first one resulting in a huge 2-handed tomahawk jam. He called for the ball in the 2nd half and hit a nice weak side fade away.

I just don't understand how Nocioni has been demoted to the bench. They need to start Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni, and Ben... not PJ Brown.

It's strange... I'm watching Ben do his thing for another team, and at the same time, I'm glad for him that he's gone. It will be good to see him get appreciation for all the things he does again. He was at the point with the Pistons where the other players were taking his contributions for granted. I feel like he gave us enough and he deserves a change. Also, if he drew that same salary with us, he would eventually get blamed for it in year 3 or so.

Low we gotta move on and forget about Ben. Yeah he dominated the Pistons middle setting the defensive tone for 6 years, but we got a new man there now and if the Pistons are successful it will be a Ben who???

I know some of you are upset that he left us high and dry, but if we are lucky he may go the route of Joe Johnson and Edgerin James who both jumped their successful team for more mulah and look what it got them. :rolleyes:

I see Ben didn't take the extra cash and hire Rick Barry or Mark Price to help him shoot FT's over the summer as he put up a Ben like 1-6 from the FT line tonight.

OBTW, I have not seen anybody upset that Mo Evans stepped in for Kobe yesterday and scored 12 points.....:) :stirthepot:

I see Ben didn't take the extra cash and hire Rick Barry or Mark Price to help him shoot FT's over the summer as he put up a Ben like 1-6 from the FT line tonight.


Mark Price is actually the new head coach for a new 'expansion' basketball team in the Australian National League. The season just started a few weeks ago. Shane Heal came out of retirement to captain the squad.

They're called the South Dragons based in Melbourne

NBL > Dragons (http://www.nbl.com.au/default.aspx?s=dragons)

I have to say that it really sucks beyond sucking to sit here and watch Ben manhandle rebounds for the stinkin Bulls. Even in light minutes tonight...he's not jokin. I doubt he'll play much more tonight, but it's extremely painful to watch him man the middle for the enemy.
I'm with The Low 100% here. This just makes me sick.

I see Ben didn't take the extra cash and hire Rick Barry or Mark Price to help him shoot FT's over the summer as he put up a Ben like 1-6 from the FT line tonight.

...because supposedly he has Coach Skiles to help him out with that.

Low we gotta move on and forget about Ben. Yeah he dominated the Pistons middle setting the defensive tone for 6 years, but we got a new man there now and if the Pistons are successful it will be a Ben who???

It's easy to forget about someone you don't have to see again. It's impossible to forget about someone who leaves a major hole in your lineup, is basically chased out of town for his 6 years of hard work, is murdered by the local media, and will probably be handing your cakes to you 4 times a year and probably in the playoffs....forgetting is not an option.

Low, how are you watching Ben at all? He's not on NBATV. Your profile says you are from Las Vegas. So...was it on League Pass? It just ended but I couldn't find it on my NBATV. I thought preseason wasn't on League Pass. I definitely would have watched that game. Painful as it might have been.

check your PMs

Low we gotta move on and forget about Ben. Yeah he dominated the Pistons middle setting the defensive tone for 6 years, but we got a new man there now and if the Pistons are successful it will be a Ben who???

I know some of you are upset that he left us high and dry, but if we are lucky he may go the route of Joe Johnson and Edgerin James who both jumped their successful team for more mulah and look what it got them. :rolleyes:

I see Ben didn't take the extra cash and hire Rick Barry or Mark Price to help him shoot FT's over the summer as he put up a Ben like 1-6 from the FT line tonight.

OBTW, I have not seen anybody upset that Mo Evans stepped in for Kobe yesterday and scored 12 points.....:) :stirthepot:

I agree with you all the way Dre on us moving on.

He'll do ok with Chicago and that's fine with me. He'll get some rebounds and miss his free throws. Life goes on. I'm fairly certain we weren't going to win another championship with him on the team anyhow.

Let's support the guys we have now. People complained all summer long. Let's at least see how they do before we go into "Doom and Gloom" mode.

and will probably be handing your cakes to you 4 times a year and probably in the playoffs....forgetting is not an option.

Is that a challenge? I'll take it. I still believe the Pistons will still mop up the Bulls with/without Ben.

Cue theme from the good, bad & ugly... showdown at high noon.
"You're afeird of pullin' the trigger ya yella belly varmit"... "oh yeah, well yer fittin' ta be planted with da daisies" :makmiday:

Stay tuned to the Low & Max duels Jan 6, Feb 25, March 29 & April 4th... may the best team kick dirt on the loser :6shoot:

Cue theme from the good, bad & ugly... showdown at high noon.
"You're afeird of pullin' the trigger ya yella belly varmit"... "oh yeah, well yer fittin' ta be planted with da daisies" :makmiday:

Stay tuned to the Low & Max duels Jan 6, Feb 25, March 29 & April 4th... may the best team kick dirt on the loser :6shoot:

Just having fun...

Is that a challenge? I'll take it. I still believe the Pistons will still mop up the Bulls with/without Ben.

Don't test me.....:smiley-poker:

Last year the Pistons swept the Bulls, I think Chicago will finally win a game at home against the Pistons. But Detroit will win 3 of 4.

Ben looks like him self for a little bit even on the free throw line. But over the long haul this team will have a lot of low post problems on the offensive end. Brown and Ben in the starting line up may mesh but in the Playoffs it could be a problem.

Ben will be fine this year, but I can see that he does not have the same freakish lift in the legs he use to have.

Last year the Pistons swept the Bulls, I think Chicago will finally win a game at home against the Pistons. But Detroit will win 3 of 4.

Ben looks like him self for a little bit even on the free throw line. But over the long haul this team will have a lot of low post problems on the offensive end. Brown and Ben in the starting line up may mesh but in the Playoffs it could be a problem.

Ben will be fine this year, but I can see that he does not have the same freakish lift in the legs he use to have.

Depends on how much they play him. Also have to watch for how Chandler does in ATL. He was doing quit well closing out last season. They basically substituted Ben in for Chandler.

Also - I can't see Brown doing much at his age.

Low - look at the bright side. May have lost Ben but at least we got a new coach out of the deal...

Thought chandler came to NOK.

Man, this has got to roast some chestnuts...

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/wallace_061010.jpg

Man, this has got to roast some chestnuts...

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/wallace_061010.jpg

It just ain't right. :tsk: :tsk: :tsk: But it's rough.

Man, this has got to roast some chestnuts...

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/wallace_061010.jpg
All he needs is an Al-Qaeda medallion and his look is complete.

It's easy to forget about someone you don't have to see again. It's impossible to forget about someone who leaves a major hole in your lineup, is basically chased out of town for his 6 years of hard work, is murdered by the local media, and will probably be handing your cakes to you 4 times a year and probably in the playoffs....forgetting is not an option.

we're going to be okay without him. the media didn't murder him, they brought up valid points about why a scoring center in flip saunder's system was a good thing. nobody ever detracted from ben's rebounding, blocking, and man-defensive prowress.

now sheed and tayshaun wont be getting doubled all the time. our bench looks solid. I for one am excited about next season.

Man, this has got to roast some chestnuts...

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/wallace_061010.jpg

Fanning the flames, Roscoe, fanning the flames.

My job is equal parts moderation, administration and instigation. :pound:

better a bull than a Pacer.

Low, how are you watching Ben at all? He's not on NBATV. Your profile says you are from Las Vegas. So...was it on League Pass? It just ended but I couldn't find it on my NBATV. I thought preseason wasn't on League Pass. I definitely would have watched that game. Painful as it might have been.


Prolly on WGN.

Guess what guys?? I am willing to bet that Ben will do well as a leader on his new team. I am willing to bet if the game comes down to shooting free throws, that he may have to sit out a few minutes. I am willing to bet that the bulls have a better chance than last year to beat the Heat, if they were to meet in the playoffs. I am willing to bet that if the Bulls do not make the playoff that Ben will show up at the Palace to support the Pistons. He is the same Ben Wallace that clocked Shaq's shot ans sent him to the floor.

we're going to be okay without him. the media didn't murder him, they brought up valid points about why a scoring center in flip saunder's system was a good thing. nobody ever detracted from ben's rebounding, blocking, and man-defensive prowress.

now sheed and tayshaun wont be getting doubled all the time. our bench looks solid. I for one am excited about next season.

This is exactly the problem....when Sheed or Tay were doubled during the Title runs, LB used it against our opponents by finding cutters to the rim. Not only did it keep ALL our players involved in the offense, it increased our points in the paint significantly.

I really don't see how caving in to our opponents defensive schemes and abandoning all attempts at points in the paint or involving Ben in the offense is doing to solve our problems. Shooting the ball is not the only way of being involved in the offensive scheme. A championship level coach would recognize that.

....Whatever....I guess I'm done with the whole thing...obviously, I'm insane and a malcontent for siding with the methodology that won us a title...Enjoy Nazr....welcome to dETROIT

better a bull than a Pacer.

No doubt about that! I think Ben will really make an opposing team tougher, and I would hate for it to be the evil Pacers.
For example: If Ben had been a Pacer at the stripclub that night, the team may have been able to handle the handicapped midget without having to use firearms.

:pound:

Speaking of the enemy, I just noticed that Ben is wearing an Oakland Athletics hat.

Speaking of the enemy, I just noticed that Ben is wearing an Oakland Athletics hat.


Are you joking or is it really an A's hat?

I thought it might be when I looked at it but I couldn't figure out why he'd be an A's fan except as a big F-U to Detroit fans, and I really didn't think he was bitter like that.

Are you joking or is it really an A's hat?

I thought it might be when I looked at it but I couldn't figure out why he'd be an A's fan except as a big F-U to Detroit fans, and I really didn't think he was bitter like that.

Looks like an A's hat to me.

Uhm... No.

It's a Braves hat.

Uhm... No.

It's a Braves hat.

Shows what I know. :pound:

Low we gotta move on and forget about Ben. Yeah he dominated the Pistons middle setting the defensive tone for 6 years, but we got a new man there now and if the Pistons are successful it will be a Ben who???

I know some of you are upset that he left us high and dry, but if we are lucky he may go the route of Joe Johnson and Edgerin James who both jumped their successful team for more mulah and look what it got them. :rolleyes:

I see Ben didn't take the extra cash and hire Rick Barry or Mark Price to help him shoot FT's over the summer as he put up a Ben like 1-6 from the FT line tonight.

OBTW, I have not seen anybody upset that Mo Evans stepped in for Kobe yesterday and scored 12 points.....:) :stirthepot:EVER SEE "THE OMEN 2'? when Damian realizes who he is and says.."But he does live, Marc,...IN ME!!"...THATS bEN AND ME- darth hq!!

Man, this has got to roast some chestnuts...

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/wallace_061010.jpg

While the search is on for someone to teach him the art of free-throws, they might also hire a person to show him how to wear a baseball cap.

Ben Wallace vs. Timberwolves article:

Wolves: Wallace mows 'em down with hustle, determination:

"That's why Ben Wallace works in this league. He uses the broom. He uses the rake. He sweeps. He doesn't take the blower and blow it. If you're a country boy, you understand that."
For you city mice, the Bulls signed Wallace to a four-year, $60 million contract this summer with the understanding that he will work hard, play aggressively, instill intensity in his youngish teammates and scare the bejeezus out of opposing ballhandlers who tread inside.
"A hellacious big man," Chicago coach Scott Skiles called Wallace the other day. It doesn't matter to Skiles that Wallace is only 6-9 (maybe) or that 100 fans sitting in the stands on any given night probably could beat him at H-O-R-S-E.
"Tenacious is the best word I can use for Ben," Timberwolves forward Vin Baker said Friday night before tipoff of the Wolves-Bulls' preseason game at United Center, in which Wallace had seven rebounds, four points and a block in 22 minutes of playing time. "He's not the strongest guy, he's not the tallest guy. But he goes after it.
"But it's an every-night thing," Baker said. "His game is built on the mental approach. Very few players have what it takes to bring that tenacity every night."
link: Wolves: Wallace mows 'em down with hustle, determination (http://www.startribune.com/511/story/757227.html)

This is kind of strange. I have not seen any Bulls games but stats wise Ben is way below his average in every category and is on pace to set an unbreakable NBA record for lowest FT% in a single season if this trend continues into the season.

Of course when you just commited 60mil over 4 years to a player I would not expect to hear anything bad pointed out.

What are the odds that Maxiel will make us forget all about Ben? I know that will not happen but its nice to think about.

What are the odds that Maxiel will make us forget all about Ben? I know that will not happen but its nice to think about.
The Pistons are doing a heckuva job promoting this. We'll know the truth when the season starts and whether Max is relegated to garbage time, or if all this hard work and accomplishment equals real playing time.

Gotta side with Darth Low on this one. Ben Wallace should have retired a Piston. Period.

Flip Saunders is a tool. No chance we win the title with him... not this year, not ever.

The rule change excuse is simply that. It's not a well reasoned argument. Defense and stops win. Flip's system killed us last year against Miami when we went cold. We did not have those troubles when we went cold with LB at the helm. We still could gut out wins on D alone. Not happening with Flip. Not ever.

I'm going to love this season for many reasons, but I can't say it's because I expect us to be in a Parade next summer.

Reasons- JMax, Us vs. Chi-Town, emergence of a bench, what happens with Billups, will Joe make a Big time trade?, and last but not least---watching Flip Saunders twitch and grind his jaw and tell us why it's OK when the starters are missing everything and playing lazy (just kidding, this one drives me batty)

This is kind of strange. I have not seen any Bulls games but stats wise Ben is way below his average in every category and is on pace to set an unbreakable NBA record for lowest FT% in a single season if this trend continues into the season.

Of course when you just commited 60mil over 4 years to a player I would not expect to hear anything bad pointed out.

What are the odds that Maxiel will make us forget all about Ben? I know that will not happen but its nice to think about.

You'd be at an all-time low two if you were playing an avg of 15 min. per game in the preseason. You will see, trust me.

You'd be at an all-time low two if you were playing an avg of 15 min. per game in the preseason. You will see, trust me.

I know a lot of what a defenesive orientated player like Ben does will not show up on the stat line. Like I wrote I have not seen the Bulls play yet but in scanning the Bulls stats and quickly estimating them out to regular mins it seems like his stats are down. I know its the pre-season but I would imagine that he would be going near 100% given that he has something to prove in front of his new team and fans.

I did read an article where Skiles said that he is getting what he expected from Ben so far ( setting screens, defensive plays, etc.. ) but the question is was last season a fluke or is Ben slowing down. Will they get any of his 10+ block games that we used to get. Can he dominate games like he used to. In other words is he worth 15mil/yr.

On J-Max. I can see Flip just inserting Mohammed as our starting C and going with him, Dyess and Sheed. Based on last season this is probably what I should be expecting but Dumars has been quoted ( I posted in another post ) that he wants J to play. He has had a great pre-season overall and thats better than having a bad one which is some reason to hope.

I get where you're coming from, but what you are seeing in the stats A)cannot be drawn out into 48 min. Because 48 min stat (especially on detnews) have proven to be useless. and B) Skiles is pretty much giving Ben some run to keep the blood pumping, but is really kind of letting him take it easy until the real deal starts. Having said that, after watching his games, he is just as effective with CHI as he was prior to Flip's arrival. I don't expect any drop off in his performance.

As far as the pay goes, if Sheed is worth 11 Mil (and no one gripes about his salary) with all of his Techs and the 3 ptrs that everybody complains about, then you have to honestly entertain whether Ben is at least worth that much seeing what he has done for the franchise as opposed to what Sheed has done for the franchise as a whole. Besides, I never believed we needed to pay Ben 15 Mil. If Davidson was already prepared to give him 12, why not meet him in the middle and cost yourself a measily 1 Mil, pay him 13, and agree to have at least some modest attention to defense this year?

I seriously think he would have stayed for 13 and it hardly would have ruined our chances with any other FA considering they were already prepared to hand out 12 Mil. The reason he got 60 right off the top is because that's what CHI came to the table with. There wasn't this Pistons nickle and dime play to start with 11.6, like the Pistons did, and whittle it up to 12 Mil. Ben Wallace has been pretty straight forward with the front office and they should have known better than to pull that "start low / negotiate up to what we're "really" willing to pay" strategy.

That little game and Flip's insistance on only focusing on the strengths of his "offensive" players is what cost the Pistons Ben Wallace.

It ultimately comes back to Joe. He knew what he was bringing in. He knew what he was keeping. He Let Ben go. I think it was in order to take advantages of his coaches strengths.

What are the odds that Maxiel will make us forget all about Ben? I know that will not happen but its nice to think about.
Now there's a vision... Brahma going in for a power slam and the only one standing in the way is Ben... whew must see TV.

Now there's a vision... Brahma going in for a power slam and the only one standing in the way is Ben... whew must see TV.

A power Slam??

Ben would let him go........

Low - would you be willing to entertain the idea that this goes a little beyond Flip. That there could have been a greater issue or issues at stake like not calling out the coach in the middle of the playoffs or not being a team player.

I don't know what went on but it did not seem like either side was interested in continuing Bens employment here. That Dumars offer was more of a mock attempt for the media. Don't think he ever expected Ben to actually take it.

Maybe someone will write a book someday and let us know what was really going on because its not as simple as money or Flips style. Perhaps he was stomping around on the practice floor with golf spikes on for all I know.

Low stats and hustle plays was never a way to describe Ben in the past. Thats what we used to say about Curry.

would you be willing to entertain the idea that this goes a little beyond Flip. Sorry to but-in, but my response to that question is 'No'. The team was extremely cohesive before Flip got here...even through all of the LB ruckus. Did any player ever criticize LB through all that stuff?...not a soul...some may have had differences with LB, but all the players respected him for his coaching. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for Flip.

Maybe someone will write a book someday and let us know what was really going on because its not as simple as money or Flips style. Perhaps he was stomping around on the practice floor with golf spikes on for all I know.For all we know, Flip was flicking boogers at Ben from under the rim during FT practice. I'd love to see that book...who's gonna write it? I know it won't be Flip, unless he grows some kohonees.

We don't need to play the blame game... Ben got an outrageous offer and it was too steep for ownership... good or bad decision... we haven't seen the results yet.

The Bulls could be good this year.

Tonight against the Raptors (the only NBA that is actually trying to win games in the preseason), Ben had 11 rebounds and the other Ben had 38 points. Now that is going to be a fun combination.

Hinrich, Wallace, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni, Duhon, Tyrus Thomas, and a few other interesting prospects... not too shabby. They are not going to be fun to play against. :wedgie:

Well, I hope that Ben and the rest of the Bulls get off to a bad start in Florida. :gun1: :gun1:!!!

Well, I hope that Ben and the rest of the Bulls get off to a bad start in Florida. :gun1: :gun1:!!!

Thanks for reminding me. I don't want to miss the Bulls/Magic games!

I read the Ben Wallace interview in the new issue of Slam. Ben claims he started thinking about leaving during the last game of the Heat playoffs, when He was benched. When asked whether it was hard leaving Detroit, he mentioned nothing about missing the fans or his teammates. He left no doubt in my mind that he cares anything about his time with the Pistons and only that he is now happy to be able to play at both ends of the floor. He said coming here to play in February would be no big deal. His attitude is a huge disappointment to me as the fans and his teammates we were so supportive of him. I hope everyone in this forum gets a chance to read the interview.

Before everyone runs in here with the regular Ben/Darko rhetoric, I think fans place too much emphasis on loyalty.

I mean, the guy played here and was underpaid for years, even willing to give up renegotiating to keep the team competitive and people want to continue to attack him for loyalty.

In a show me the money league, the Pistons made a sad face and pulled their pants pockets inside out. That isn't Ben's fault.

I read the Ben Wallace interview in the new issue of Slam. Ben claims he started thinking about leaving during the last game of the Heat playoffs, when He was benched. When asked whether it was hard leaving Detroit, he mentioned nothing about missing the fans or his teammates. He left no doubt in my mind that he cares anything about his time with the Pistons and only that he is now happy to be able to play at both ends of the floor. He said coming here to play in February would be no big deal. His attitude is a huge disappointment to me as the fans and his teammates we were so supportive of him. I hope everyone in this forum gets a chance to read the interview.
Again, I think you're reading to much into this. Let it go, it'll allow you to sleep better. Chicago offered more money and Detroit didn't really want him here any more. So he left.

I read the Ben Wallace interview in the new issue of Slam. Ben claims he started thinking about leaving during the last game of the Heat playoffs, when He was benched.

Just like to say that I called it. I knew watching that game that it was over between the Pistons and Ben. Probably the most dissapointing 12 minutes of basketball I have watched in the last 5 years.

Before everyone runs in here with the regular Ben/Darko rhetoric, I think fans place too much emphasis on loyalty.

I mean, the guy played here and was underpaid for years, even willing to give up renegotiating to keep the team competitive and people want to continue to attack him for loyalty.

In a show me the money league, the Pistons made a sad face and pulled their pants pockets inside out. That isn't Ben's fault.

Lets also not turn this into ( it already has ) into a the Pistons are the cheapest team in the league deal. Remember how Bens new team treated Pippen. Pippens agent negotiated one of the crappiest deals of all-time and the Bulls never renegotiated. I think he made something like 3 mil in his final season and had to sit there watch guys like Rodman get 10mil+/season.

if Ben really wanted to stay then he would have countered with something like would guys bump it up to 13.5/season or give me a longer deal. Dumars could have retained him for say a 5-6/yr deal with backroom assurances that he would also be given some overpayed part time gig when he retired. Something could have been done.

Neither side seemed interested and truthfully I don't believe that we know the real reasons.

I'm not trying to paint the Pistons as cheap, although there is certainly a lot of evidence towards that conclusion.

I'm saying that loyalty is a two way street, and I agree with you that neither side seemed interested in continuing the relationship.

I'm not trying to paint the Pistons as cheap, although there is certainly a lot of evidence towards that conclusion.

I'm saying that loyalty is a two way street, and I agree with you that neither side seemed interested in continuing the relationship.

The only time money factored in was with Ben. We have just been hashing it over for so long that it seems like its more. And was that really all just about money?

I'm not trying to paint the Pistons as cheap, although there is certainly a lot of evidence towards that conclusion.

I'm saying that loyalty is a two way street, and I agree with you that neither side seemed interested in continuing the relationship.

This is about as accurate of a take there is on the situation.

I don't blame Ben for leaving at all. 60mil is 60mil. But I do find him a little shallow in his lack of regard for the fans and for his ex teammates. Would it have been so hard for him to say He would miss his teammates and his Detroit fans? It wouldn't be OK if Chauncy and Sheed etc said they wouldn't miss Ben? Would it have been so hard for Ben to say nice things about his time in Detroit? I am dissapointed in Ben's attitude towards us. I think our current players have shown a lot more class, and I am proud of them. Go Pistons!!!

Hey easybuckets, what's understood, doesn't need to be said over and over again.
Some fans seem pretty insecure about the players liking them back.

For example. I have never told you how much I like you. Does that mean I do not?

Let Ben go. It's time to heal.

I think we are doing a lot better. Ben threads are in NBA stuff where they belong and we are seeing less Ben references in Piston discussions.

Yep. Now we just gotta move all the Darko threads here!

I agree with Joe Dumars . If they don't want to be here, Trade em. I also think we need to stop blaming Flip for everything. A coach is not the social director. The coach is a boss, like it or not. And I also think that Joe Dumars is part of the ongoing decision on what playing time the guys get. So let's not heap all the blame on Flip for Darko and Ben leaving. And I also don't care for the remarks about Flip's nervous tics or whatever. Those kind of comments are really beneath us.

I agree with Joe Dumars . If they don't want to be here, Trade em. I also think we need to stop blaming Flip for everything. A coach is not the social director. The coach is a boss, like it or not. And I also think that Joe Dumars is part of the ongoing decision on what playing time the guys get. So let's not heap all the blame on Flip for Darko and Ben leaving. And I also don't care for the remarks about Flip's nervous tics or whatever. Those kind of comments are really beneath us.

You're analogy is right. So, if an employee proves the boss wrong, should the company hasten the employee's departure?

The Pistons got the most out of Ben at an unbelievable price. They deserved to, because they were the highest bidder at the time and saw something in him that other teams didn't.

Now Ben wants to cash in and play with a team that shares his bball philosophy.

I really don't have a problem with either. Win-win.


I like Ben and wish he were on the team... but I also like the concept of not overpaying players... especially when they are 30+ years old. It is moves like this that enable ongoing success.

You're analogy is right. So, if an employee proves the boss wrong, should the company hasten the employee's departure?

could you explain how ben proved flip wrong?

I'm 100% OK with Ben taking the money and running... I saw no guarantees that we could beat the Spurs, Dallas or Heat with Ben and his new multi mil boat anchor contract.
Living in the present for today & a future.
Maybe Chicago will beat us this year... but they have no better chance of winning a ship... I like having a chance at improving without contracts that give us no chance.

could you explain how ben proved flip wrong?

I don't think there's a member on this board that wants me to go through that explanation from the beginning again.

I don't think there's a member on this board that wants me to go through that explanation from the beginning again.
:angrysoapbox:
Yes and I really would not want to counter again either.

Ben opening the season in Miami!

After the opening tip, he played Shaq tough in the post and forced him to miss. Looks like Ben is at PF and PJ Brown is playing Center, but Ben is guarding Shaq one-on-one as usual.

Dwyane Wade just kicked Kirk Hinrich and got the foul call. Seriously. Hinrich was at least 6 inches away, and Wade kicked his legs out on a jumper and drew the foul.

This is disgusting.

Bulls up by 2...

Chicago swarming defense is pretty impressive to watch. They are very, very active.

Ben starting the season with 100% free throw shooting. Chicago doing well on defence limiting all but Wade.

Bulls up by 7 with 2 fouls on Shaq and Wade.

Sounds like "Gramps" Wallace is a good fit over there in Chi Town.

Ben is completely left out of the offense thus far. Completely.

But he blocked Mourning and he's in there fighting for boards.

I know a lot of Detroit fans want to talk him down because it helps deal with being rejected, but Ben is still a pretty special player. It will be interesting to see Nazr go head to head against him.

Ben is completely left out of the offense thus far. Completely.




Honestly, did you expect different?

The way this game is flowing, the Bulls could have this 29 point lead without Ben's contribution. Yeah at the half he has 5 boards, 3 pts and an assist, but the way the Bulls are playing, maybe he should have stayed here so we would have a chance to beat those Bulls later:)

Maybe it's just the Heat aren't that good....

Halftime Chicago leads 59-30.

Wow. Chicago looking strong. Love that aggressive hustling defense that is creating points in the paint. :rolleyes:

Ben made his first two free throws of the season. I almost fell off my couch. It's wierd to see him playing for someone else, but I'm just glad to watch him play.

As an aside, why is everything to do with that Miami organization so tacky? The ring ceremony, the music, everyone in white again. The announcer sounding like a poor man's Mason. That organization needs to hire an image consultant. As a fan, I'd be embarrassed to be associated with that fan base.

Limiting the so called NBA Champions:yukpuke: to just 30 points at the half shows that the Bulls are ready for the season and they meant BUSINESS. Whether or not Big Ben is with the Bulls, as long as the Heat is playing, I'm supporting the other team.

BEAT HEAT!!!:lol: BEAT HEAT!!!

Halftime Chicago leads 59-30.


As an aside, why is everything to do with that Miami organization so tacky? The ring ceremony, the music, everyone in white again. The announcer sounding like a poor man's Mason. That organization needs to hire an image consultant. As a fan, I'd be embarrassed to be associated with that fan base.

Kim you are right about the ring ceremony, it was so boring and subdued, I thought I was watching a wedding :sssh:

ben sucks. misses two easy layups in a row. i guess he was trying to pad his rebound stats. miami is taking it easy this season. i think the bulls could have used thier money more wisely because the rest of the team is good without ben.

Wow, Ben`s team looks quite impressive. Or, is it as Dre mentioned, Miami is just not that good, or perhaps, will be in cruise control until further notice.

What was startling to me about the Baby Bulls was their depth and agressiveness, on both ends of the floor. I still wouldn`t put too much into this victory tonight, however, if the Bulls put forth a consistent effort like tonight, they could be a handful througout the season and into the playoffs.

As for Miami, I just don`t see them repeating as champions. Iregardless of this loss, they are done. The Heat players looked as if they were eliminated from the playoffs at the end of this game. It was only the first game of the season.

Maybe they are anticipating a long, dreadful season............

As for Miami, I just don`t see them repeating as champions. Iregardless of this loss, they are done. The Heat players looked as if they were eliminated from the playoffs at the end of this game. It was only the first game of the season.

Maybe they are anticipating a long, dreadful season............

Shaq's butt getting bigger and Wade's head getting bigger too. No way they can repeat. I personally don't think they can even reach the Conference Finals.

:ouch:

The Heat are in serious need for some athletes that can defend the perimeter... Jalen may not be their answer

Bench points- Chicago 55, Miami 12.

That was the most satisfying game that I have seen in a long time. The Bulls played 12 guys in the first half and the arena was empty.

I think that the Bulls are probably the deepest team in the NBA.


And what about this comment from the announcer "some would argue that the Bulls will have a hard time making it deep into the playoffs without a star player"?

Ben Wallace, 5 time all-star, best defender of a generation, NBA champion, former captain of last year's 64 win Piston team... not a star????

And Kirk Hinrich, starting point guard for the US Olympic team.


They are getting as disrespected as the 03-04 Pistons.


By the way, Tyrus Thomas and Ben Wallace each had absolutely ridiculous dunks tonight. Both were off of rebounds and they came out of nowhere.

I have DirecTV to thank for screwing up my installation date and forcing me to miss this one from start to finish.

However, they did refund my money for the 5 days I was out of service and gave me 3 months of Showtime Free......SWEET.

...oh wait, no Bulls games on Showtime...:gaah:

Shaq looked slower than ever... he's a non factor on defense... real easy to back cut...
Riley is gonna work these ol' farts to death... hoopshype will have a hammy pull or knee strain by next week.

Bench points- Chicago 55, Miami 12.

That was the most satisfying game that I have seen in a long time. The Bulls played 12 guys in the first half and the arena was empty.



Yeah, they didn't hold back at all about playing their bench, even on national tv first game of the year. I really love these teams that are willing to play so deep. It's why Phoenix and Dallas were also so likeable to me last year.

Now I know that it was only the first game and Miami didn't seem either willing or capable of putting forth a real effort, but STILL even considering all that, Chicago looked crisp, fast, strong and like "they know who they are." I can't wait to see more of them. They will be an exciting team to watch this year. Very dynamic.

I thought ben wallace did pretty well. He had that one rebound while he was surrounded by Heat players and then he threw a long outlet pass for the transition bucket. Great looking team those bulls. Scrappy and lots of movement.

ben sucks. misses two easy layups in a row. i guess he was trying to pad his rebound stats. miami is taking it easy this season. i think the bulls could have used thier money more wisely because the rest of the team is good without ben.

Hater.

I already see what you're cooking up. If the Bulls do well with Ben you will say that he had nothing to do with their success. Sad, just sad.

Can we guage the Bulls by this game. It does sure say ythat they will not let up. They will beat into the dirt if you let them. What about the Heat?? Everyone is ready to retire.

I see GP, Zo and Walker taking a step back this year. They have their rings now. Two of them are ready to retire, and the third is just waiting to eat the other two.

Holy crap was Fatoin's 3-point shot off. Those bricks had no chance.

Holy crap was Fatoin's 3-point shot off. Those bricks had no chance.


You sound surprised...

Well, he is streaky. He makes enough that I always fear it may be going in when he shoots. But last night, there was just no hope. It was like watching Ben go through one of those free throw slumps. The misses were of a bad quality.

Holy crap was Fatoin's 3-point shot off. Those bricks had no chance.


I got stuck with him on one of my fantasy teams in the advanced league and he is trade bait right now for whomever wants him:(

The Bulls played very god last night however, let's not get too ahead of ourselves about the Bulls championship aspirations becaue there were glaring weaknesses.

The # 1 issue that the Bulls will have ALL season is, they are a jump shooting team. Even though I didn't check, I can guarantee you there weren't many points scored in the paint. They will die by that jump shot.

Ben tried to scored a few times in th paint but missed horribly.

I hope we don't dedicate papges and pages of pistonsforum space on covering the Bulls and Ben Wallace. It's a waste of valuable space that can be used for Pistons talk.

Sorry. I could not resist this. Chicago sports writer talking about the pros and cons of the 1st 2 Bulls games.


Pessimist: Howard resembled the O'Neal who jumped and dunked everything during his Orlando days and made Wallace look like the 6 feet 7 inches he told TNT he is rather than the 6-9 at which he's listed. The Bulls will have trouble with athletic size because it will neutralize the lineups with Andres Nocioni at power forward


Plus, if the Bulls fall behind, players like Wallace and Brown might have to sit for long stretches, exacerbating the size issue.


Reasons to like Bulls (or not) on ChicagoSports.com (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-061102bulls,1,6052594.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines)

The Bulls played very god last night however, let's not get too ahead of ourselves about the Bulls championship aspirations becaue there were glaring weaknesses.

The # 1 issue that the Bulls will have ALL season is, they are a jump shooting team. Even though I didn't check, I can guarantee you there weren't many points scored in the paint. They will die by that jump shot.

Ben tried to scored a few times in th paint but missed horribly.

I hope we don't dedicate papges and pages of pistonsforum space on covering the Bulls and Ben Wallace. It's a waste of valuable space that can be used for Pistons talk.

Don't we have the same problem?

Don't we have the same problem?

no nazr can score in the paint, tay can score in the paint, sheed can score in the paint and jmax can score in the paint. we are a jump shooting team but we do have the people that can go inside when needed. chicago doesn't have that.

cb and rip are driving to the hole a lot this year now that they dont' have ben's man waiting for them in the paint.

ben sucks.

no nazr can score in the paint, tay can score in the paint, sheed can score in the paint and jmax can score in the paint. we are a jump shooting team but we do have the people that can go inside when needed. chicago doesn't have that.

cb and rip are driving to the hole a lot this year now that they dont' have ben's man waiting for them in the paint.

ben sucks.

If we have people who could but they don't what's the difference?

..and Ben absolutely does not suck. lol.

Don't we have the same problem?

Not too much. The Pistons got to the line a lot yesterday which means they tried getting inside. I think some of that jumpshooting problem is starting to get fixed.

I can't believe Kings won in those last 30 seconds though. Anyone notice that was the first time Artest and Ben matched up since the brawl? Ben and Ron cleared things up though.

Jay is right about one thing and that's the paint scoring. That will not be as big of an issue this season for our Pistons. As for Ben sucking you are on your own there jay.

I can't help myself but this picture on Ben's profile hurts somehow...
http://www.nba.com/media/act_ben_wallace.jpg

This Thursdays Chicago/Clev game with be on TNT at 7pm.

This will be my 1st time seeing the new Bulls.

TwoTimes - do you know which block that was out of the 2 that he has gotten so far as a Bull?

ya think he's going to be able to average more than 1blk/game? Slowly I start doubting he'll be but no way he's going to block close to twice a game...

Here is a comparison that not many of us have looked at. Would the Bulls have been better off keeping Tyson Chandler? NOK is rolling and the Bulls are sputtering a bit. The Bulls almost beat the Heat in the playoffs last year with Tyson.

-------Ben/Tyson this year.
Minutes 33/ 30
Points 5.2/7
Rebounds 8.8/12
Assists 1.8/0.8
Steals 1.4/0.2
Blocks 1.6/0.4
FG% .474/.700

Salary $15.7M/ $9.0M

Ben does more things, but Tyson is outscoring and outrebounding him and more efficient from the field. Tyson is averaging 3.4 fouls/game, so he is capable of getting increase PT as the season goes on.

Last night's Bulls game was the first time I've seen them play this year. It was a bit of an odd introduction since the Bulls were never really in the game, but without the name on the jersey I wouldn't have recognized BBen. Ben always looked big to me with the Pistons (certainly bigger than his actual height), but he looked small last night. (I'm not sure how that works.) But, he was also basically non-existent on the floor. He seemed lost on offense, but also lost on defense and I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. He never once did something that seemed to change the flow of the game. I'm also not sure I ever saw a Pistons game where that didn't happen at least once. The frontline with Brown and Nocioni was a lot more productive than one with Ben.

So, it's early in the season as you say, and maybe a player like Ben is harder to incorporate into a lineup. Don't know, but based on last night and your numbers, Pax might be feeling a little uneasy.

As predicted Sam (the sham) Smith wouldn't let the Ben factor slide (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-061110smith,1,3679416.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines)

Ben tonight had 10 offensive rebounds!

The Bulls had 24 offensive boards to Indiana's 3!!! Jeff Foster has been solved.

Just when I thought Ben couldn't get any worse, he goes and does something like this, and total redeems himself.

Ben tonight had 10 offensive rebounds!

The Bulls had 24 offensive boards to Indiana's 3!!! Jeff Foster has been solved.

Just when I thought Ben couldn't get any worse, he goes and does something like this, and total redeems himself.

How did he look? Anyone watch it?

Curious if he looked like his old game changing self or just some guy who got a lot of rebounds. I see he had 0 blocks but he did have 1 game when he got 5.

Thursday was the only Bulls game I have seen and Ben did not look like himself at all.

How did he look? Anyone watch it?

Curious if he looked like his old game changing self or just some guy who got a lot of rebounds. I see he had 0 blocks but he did have 1 game when he got 5.

Thursday was the only Bulls game I have seen and Ben did not look like himself at all.

He looked like a guy who just got alot of rebounds. Most of the boards were uncontested which could be attributed to Ben's excellent positioning and his intimidation. That said, 10 offensive boards is still pretty darn impressive.

Wow, here we are only a few games into the NBA season and Ben is feeling the controlling ire of Scott Skiles.

Skiles is a control freak, I often wondered how the two would co-exist in Chi-Town, I am beginning to see and if you think this is the end of this type of behavior for skiles, think again.

All he wanted was to get Ben out of Detroit, a pseudo slap in our faces, we won't get far without Ben type of mentality.

Allow me to make a comparison; in Washington D.C. you have Daniel Snyder, the owner f the Washington Redskins, what he usually picks up players off the waiver wire and sign high priced players so other teams won't get them. He even admitted to signing T.J. Duckett for moo goo bucks just so his competitors wouldn't.

Ben is probably thinking that Flip was not such a bad coach after all.

The Bulls signing Wallace is huge.

I didn't believe he was worth that much money to another team (valuable to the Pistons). Now I believe he is not worth that much money to anyone. He's certainly an important player to have, but not at 3 times the average salary, or 30% of the salary cap.

It's hard to talk historical context sometimes because many fans memories don't reach back to 20 years ago.

After the 1989 season, when Detroit won their first title, Rick Mahorn was lost to the Minnesota Timberwolves in the expansion draft. The arch-nemesis Atlanta Hawks were ousted that year by the Milwaukee Bucks in the first round, 3 games to 2. An emerging big man for the Hawks during that playoff round, Jon Koncak, scored 12.8 points and pulled down 9.6 rebounds per game. The former first round pick (5th overall) was finally showing some of his promise.

The Pistons' GM Jack McCloskey offered Koncak what was a very large deal at the time. 6 years, $12 million dollars.

Chuck Daly was quoted as saying "It's not what you are worth, it's what you negotiate" and Isiah Thomas (or was it Bill Laimbeer?) made the case that the money should be spent if it could keep the Pistons in contention.

Bear in mind, at the time, Koncak's deal would have made him the second highest player on the team after Thomas. Higher than Finals MVP Joe Dumars, former Mavericks franchise player Mark Aguirre, and 4 time All-Star Bill Laimbeer. All based upon a 5 game stretch in one playoff year.

The thing is, Koncak had put up very average #s in his first 5 regular seasons, and couldn't break the Hawk's starting lineup.

Faced with Trader Jack's raise in a high stakes game of free agent poker, the Hawks capitulated and matched the deal rather than risk losing him to a division rival.

This move ate up a huge chunk of the Hawks salary, pushing Koncak behind only HOFers Moses Malone and Dominique Wilkins. With no wiggle room to add supplemental talent around 'Nique, the Hawks missed the playoffs 2 of the next 3 years, and Koncak never averaged more than 4.7 points per game for the rest of his career.

Maybe, just maybe, the sacrifice of Ben to Chicago has locked a division rival into a situation of diminishing returns and prevents their ascension to the Eastern Conference Finals.

While unintended, it could be the move that we didn't make, that proves to be oh so important.

Wow, here we are only a few games into the NBA season and Ben is feeling the controlling ire of Scott Skiles.

Skiles is a control freak, I often wondered how the two would co-exist in Chi-Town, I am beginning to see and if you think this is the end of this type of behavior for skiles, think again.

Was down on Ben for sneaking the headband into the game, but just read Skiles also forces guys to tape their ankles and won't let them listen to music before games. When did Scotty become such a control freak? I still remember him and Blake Ezor constantly partying at State and getting into trouble.

I'm surprised that Ben has been able to get away without taping this long.

Most ankle injuries can be prevented by taping.

But if taping affects Ben's bone spurs, that could explain a loss of leaping ability.

The Bulls signing Wallace is huge.

I didn't believe he was worth that much money to another team (valuable to the Pistons). Now I believe he is not worth that much money to anyone. He's certainly an important player to have, but not at 3 times the average salary, or 30% of the salary cap.

It's hard to talk historical context sometimes because many fans memories don't reach back to 20 years ago.

After the 1989 season, when Detroit won their first title, Rick Mahorn was lost to the Minnesota Timberwolves in the expansion draft. The arch-nemesis Atlanta Hawks were ousted that year by the Milwaukee Bucks in the first round, 3 games to 2. An emerging big man for the Hawks during that playoff round, Jon Koncak, scored 12.8 points and pulled down 9.6 rebounds per game. The former first round pick (5th overall) was finally showing some of his promise.

The Pistons' GM Jack McCloskey offered Koncak what was a very large deal at the time. 6 years, $12 million dollars.

At the time, Chuck Daly was quoted as saying "It's not what you are worth, it's what you negotiate" and Isiah Thomas made the case that the money should be spent if it could keep the Pistons in contention.

Bear in mind, at the time, Koncak's deal would have made him the second highest player on the team after Thomas. Higher than Finals MVP Joe Dumars, former Mavericks franchise player Mark Aguirre, and 4 time All-Star Bill Laimbeer. All based upon a 5 game stretch in one playoff year.

The thing is, Koncak had put up very average #s in his first 5 regular seasons, and couldn't break the Hawk's starting lineup.

Faced with Trader Jack's raise in a high stakes game of free agent poker, the Hawks capitulated and matched the deal rather than risk losing him to a division rival.

This move ate up a huge chunk of the Hawks salary, pushing Koncak behind only HOFers Moses Malone and Dominique Wilkins. With no wiggle room to add supplemental talent around 'Nique, the Hawks missed the playoffs 2 of the next 3 years, and Koncak never averaged more than 4.7 points per game for the rest of his career.

Maybe, just maybe, the sacrifice of Ben to Chicago has locked a division rival into a situation of diminishing returns and prevents their ascension to the Eastern Conference Finals.

While unintended, it could be the move that we didn't make, that proves to be oh so important.

Except Ben is hardly Koncak.

Ben's skills are diminishing but not that badly. lol. He still has a couple good years left in him. He may not be completely worth the front end of his contract, but he can still come pretty close. I have to respectfully disagree with you bro. It's way too early in the season to write Chicago/Ben off. I still look for them to surprise. The same early assumptions were made with Miami and they went on to become champions. That team still needs time to gel before we can truely evaluate their improvement.

Besides, the part about this move that makes it the biggest failure is not the refusal to match Ben's offer...but the inability to get anything in return for his contract. You either have to sign the guy or trade him to actually get the maximum value from this deal.

Nice history lesson Cro.

Except Ben is hardly Koncak.
I never said he was.

Ben's skills are diminishing but not that badly. lol. He still has a couple good years left in him. He may not be completely worth the front end of his contract, but he can still come pretty close. I have to respectfully disagree with you bro. It's way too early in the season to write Chicago/Ben off. I still look for them to surprise. The same early assumptions were made with Miami and they went on to become champions. That team still needs time to gel before we can truely evaluate their improvement.
I'm not writing anyone off. I'm presenting a historical precedent that is a possible outcome for the Ben Wallace in Chicago situation. To have a credible discussion about nuts and bolts salaries/performance, one has to think like a fantasy GM and shed any player attachments.

Besides, the part about this move that makes it the biggest failure is not the refusal to match Ben's offer...but the inability to get anything in return for his contract. You either have to sign the guy or trade him to actually get the maximum value from this deal.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I thought it was a terrible penny pinching move for the Pistons to not look at getting anything back. Considering that the Spurs were potential buyers, I would have enjoyed fleecing them in a Herschel Walker type deal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker#NFL_.281986-1997.29).

Nice history lesson Cro.
I love learning the history of this stuff. I was too young to follow it as it happened.

Here's another thing to consider.

Scott Skiles is obviously a very insecure individual. Wallace is supposed to bring leadership. Not represent Skiles' leadership, but to create a synergy in the Bulls locker room that takes them above their previous high water marks (this edition of the Bulls).

Why is he trying to make a point of beating down Ben? What value will Ben have as a leader and inspiration if his teammates constantly see him brown beaten by the coach?

Body is a stubborn SOB. It's what makes him great. Don't mess with that.

I never said he was.

I'm not writing anyone off. I'm presenting a historical precedent that is a possible outcome for the Ben Wallace in Chicago situation. To have a credible discussion about nuts and bolts salaries/performance, one has to think like a fantasy GM and shed any player attachments.

Perhaps I read you incorrectly then. I perceived this as you saying that Atlanta matched the Koncac offer to prevent an average center who had strong market value at the time from going to a competitor. The result was the center remained mediocre and the money spent on the center did not allow Atlanta to build around Nique.

If you were saying that, then my point is that the only similarity in the deal is that the Pistons would not want to allow another rival team drive the salary up of a guy they were interested in. This is generally the case as it pertains to any free agent so I don't see this as being anything historically unusual. The only difference is that we opted to be cheap.

Had Koncak panned out to be a breakout player, the Atlanta move would not have been viewed as being unwise. This is why I think this situation is much different. The Chicago gamble on a former defensive player of the year/allstar/nba champion was viewed by most experts/coaches as being the most savy/impacting free agent move of the offseason. The Atlanta move was based on a playoff series performance and the desire to prevent the competition from obtaining potential greatness. Also, resigning Ben (if the contract was front loaded) did not prohibit us from keeping the talent around him. At least that's what I got from reading the salary cap info on the forum.

Nevertheless, it is fun to look back at history.

If memory servers me correct, Jon Koncak adorned the cover of Sports Illustrated as the first potential million dollar man in the NBA. Am I remembering this correctly?

Here's another thing to consider.

Scott Skiles is obviously a very insecure individual. Wallace is supposed to bring leadership. Not represent Skiles' leadership, but to create a synergy in the Bulls locker room that takes them above their previous high water marks (this edition of the Bulls).

Why is he trying to make a point of beating down Ben? What value will Ben have as a leader and inspiration if his teammates constantly see him brown beaten by the coach?

Body is a stubborn SOB. It's what makes him great. Don't mess with that.

Good point. Sounds like a match made in hell. Someone has to give...who will it be?

If memory servers me correct, Jon Koncak adorned the cover of Sports Illustrated as the first potential million dollar man in the NBA. Am I remembering this correctly?
I don't think so. When Koncak was offered his deal, it was well after guys like Magic, Zeke, 'Nique, MJ and Bird were making 7 figures.

It might have been Larry Bird.

Interesting article from today's Chicago Tribune. My favorite part is Ben calling all of the Piston players complaining about his new $60 million job...


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2002-04/2565202.jpg

Sam Smith
Chicago Tribune news | Selfish behavior must be squashed (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-061126bullssmith,1,3930179.column?coll=chi-sportstop-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)


With season slipping away, Bulls can't afford to let Wallace do own thing

Published November 27, 2006


Yes, it's a silly rule. Though I can't say I've seen many $15 million per year executives coming to work wearing headbands.

No, NBA players are not your average working stiffs. Or even working elite. Not at about four hours per day.

But Ben Wallace's bold act of defiance, ignoring on Saturday in New York the team's long-held rule against wearing headbands, may be a defining moment for the future of these Bulls, who seemed to offer so much promise with the free-agent signing last summer of Wallace, the reigning NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

The Bulls at least need to fine Wallace, if not suspend him, for an egregious act that is way beyond a simple stunt of dissent or petulance.

And I'm not overdramatizing here.

Wallace, the second-highest-paid Bull after Michael Jordan in franchise history, essentially challenged the organization that did so much for him while he still does so little for them and, in effect, organized an insurrection against its coach. It's not a matter of slapping down a misbehaving player or trying to show who's in charge. It's a challenge to the very functioning of a team by what is supposed to be its premier player.

And perhaps if Wallace were playing like the premier center the Bulls expected, this may not have been an issue. The first time I heard "Life is not fair" was from former President Jimmy Carter. Another great philosopher, Phil Jackson, explained the "pretty girl gets kissed."

There are different rules for different people and we see it all the time. There were different rules for Jordan, and it gave me a good book title. There are different rules for LeBron James, Shaq and Kobe Bryant. But you better produce.

Wallace hasn't. Actually, the Bulls have played better lately with Malik Allen.

So Wallace, benched Friday in Philadelphia and finishing with zero rebounds the first time he started a game in his NBA career, apparently decided to show coach Scott Skiles who was really important.

It was the essence of selfish behavior and contrary to the team ethic Wallace is said to endorse.

Sure, you run the risk of further alienating Wallace. What then? Is he going to retire? I wondered two weeks ago watching his play whether he had.

There's plenty of opportunity for Wallace to be the player the Bulls thought they were getting and the team to have an excellent season. Wallace always played best with a chip on his shoulder, when he felt least respected and would show everyone. What better chance than now?

Because if the Bulls don't stand up and establish the authority of the team, this has the potential for an ugly resolution.

This, by the way, is nothing new for Wallace.

Just last season, he refused to enter a game late in the season because he was angry at something, usually a lack of a role in the offense. That's laughable because he shoots like an injured ostrich. I always felt the Pistons' playoff meltdown started when he openly challenged the authority of new coach Flip Saunders late in the regular season by declining to enter a game. In the playoffs, it was a virtual team rebellion.

Before this season started, Wallace in an ESPN interview blasted Saunders and commended all his former coaches, bringing giggles to all as Wallace had previously blasted them. He's an oversensitive, easily embarrassed, remote soul. I noticed him seeming to limp during the Friday game when he was benched and he was off for some MRI Sunday. His history, despite the supposed "warrior" mentality, is to come up with some small injury when things aren't going well to explain the issue, usually poor free-throw shooting.

Pistons players say Wallace has burned up the cell-phone satellites to them in recent weeks complaining about the Bulls, Skiles and signing in Chicago.

My guess is the Bulls would gladly take the money and send him back.

But they're stuck with one another and will have to make the best of it. And they can make it good.


These things happen in pro sports. It's not like players have to like whom they play for. I don't recall many parties for Jerry Krause. And it wasn't like the Pistons were hanging out with Larry Brown. You play, be professional and enjoy the rewards.

The one question Pistons players say they have repeatedly asked Wallace is: Didn't he know where he was going?

It's no secret the Bulls have such rules and I recall various headband issues with Ron Artest and Jamal Crawford. It's not like Skiles has been running around squirting water from the fake flower on his lapel. It's not like the Bulls have a team of savvy veterans with championship experience.

This is the team Wallace chose.

That they offered about $12 million more over four years seemed to be Wallace's priority.

Though Skiles is demanding, it appears he has made excuses for Wallace's poor play. Remember, Wallace—despite his reputation—isn't a big team guy. He never likes to take fouls early in games even when the opposition attacks, which has happened with the Bulls. The Bulls play the most aggressive post defense in the league by fronting, but Wallace doesn't like to front and the Bulls seemed to have let him get away with that. And he still talks about the offense going through him and playing in the fourth quarter when the team is trailing even though he can't make a layup.

Some who know Wallace say he has gotten caught up in his image, the hairstyle and Big Ben thing, and Skiles is taking that away from him with the sweatband issue and other team rules. So if Ben can't be Ben, he's not going to play like Ben. That will show them! We love to make excuses for the 19-year-olds, but he's 32.

Every organization has rules. Many are stupid. If Wallace didn't like them, he could have talked to the coach or general manager. They always seem available. He could have had his agent negotiate a clause. He could have done almost anything but what he did, which is akin to organizing a mutiny against the coach. He slapped the face of the organization that has been the best to him in his career, one that has recognized his value and taken care of his family and their families for generations to come.

Ben, all they're asking is that you take the basketball seriously for a few hours a day. Without elastic on your head, with your music limited to headphones and with your ankles taped when you practice. (Those are a few more of the supposed draconian Bulls rules that have infuriated Wallace.)

For the Bulls not to stand up now would be like asking Wallace to run the team. And it appears he has enough problems just trying to play for the team.

Interesting article. Nice insider info about the behind the scenes insurection. Same thoughts I had about last year. I'm not saying Flip is an HOFer, but when Ben dissed him it really rocked the boat and we all saw the results. Same thing happening to the Bulls right now. I think this is why the Stones are playing so good right now -- very loose..they really seem to be enjoying themselves. Especially Tay and Sheed. No more of that super serious Big Ben antics. Now that the transition is over (that 1-3 road trip) I think the season will be very nice.

skiles' little rules are completely idiotic. this isn't school camp scottie boy. he just reminds me of one of those kids who got picked on at school and now he's worked his way into a position of power, its all gone to his head.
no music, forced taping, no headbands? i don't see any problematic players on this team, they aren't kids anymore.
would anyone say guys like ben, nocioni, pj brown, malik allen, kirk hinrich, ben gordon, luol deng, etc need any kind of babying??
these guys all know how to play and none of them are soft. just what is skiles trying to prove?

it's got me dumbstruck. :confused:

this guy is panicking and going completely over the top.

he tries to bring up the past with the 'orlando incident', but he doesn't even know what it was about!

So this is what bballjay's picture looks like.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2002-04/2565202.jpg


The only reason I can think of to read this article is this gem:

...he refused to enter a game late in the season because he was angry at something, usually a lack of a role in the offense. That's laughable because he shoots like an injured ostrich.

Now that's funny. :pound:

Except Ben is hardly Koncak.

Ben's skills are diminishing but not that badly. lol. He still has a couple good years left in him. He may not be completely worth the front end of his contract, but he can still come pretty close. I have to respectfully disagree with you bro. It's way too early in the season to write Chicago/Ben off. I still look for them to surprise. The same early assumptions were made with Miami and they went on to become champions. That team still needs time to gel before we can truely evaluate their improvement.

Besides, the part about this move that makes it the biggest failure is not the refusal to match Ben's offer...but the inability to get anything in return for his contract. You either have to sign the guy or trade him to actually get the maximum value from this deal.


With Skiles at the helm, I don't expect Chicago to do much. It would be different if we were just talkin about player adjustment, but we are talking about a situation where your coach is causing uneccessary chaos.

Ben didn't care for Flip due to his play calling, Skiles is attacking Ben's personal choices to wear a headband, listen to music.

I don't know Motown, I think this time may implode before it explode. I guess the question may be, will Paxson replace Skiles if his 60 million dollar man complains and protests about his coach.

So this is what bballjay's picture looks like.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2002-04/2565202.jpg



lol. i was thinking this guy is my alter ego or something. i could have wrote this article. he must read this forum. or maybe just maybe there are some people in the world that see things the way i do about ben. ben was sheltered from this in the detroit press because he has a track record with detroit and the org. i wonder how ben's ego will handle the whole city turning on him.

I don't think we want BBeen this angry when we play him.

Pistons players say Wallace has burned up the cell-phone satellites to them in recent weeks complaining about the Bulls, Skiles and signing in Chicago.

how does he get this inside scoop. I want to know how often players call each other and what they talk about

The first time some sweat burns his eyes he should walk[mid game] over and ask Skiles for a towel. What they can't sell Bulls logo headbands?

I don't think we want BBeen this angry when we play him.
ben doesn't play when he's angry. he either refuses to go into the game or he breaks a team rule so the coach can take him out of the game. ben angry is a good thing because he'll refuse to rebound or score to prove a point to his coach that he is bigger than the team.

you could blame it on skiles if ben has had happy relationships with his other coaches.

ben broke team rules simple as that. ben is breaking rules and not producing on the court. skiles is doing his job. ben needs to do his. the rule isn't against music at all it's against playing it over the speakers. he can put on headphones if he likes. ben shouldn't have signed that contract if he didn't like the rules.

I'm surprised that Ben has been able to get away without taping this long.

Most ankle injuries can be prevented by taping.

But if taping affects Ben's bone spurs, that could explain a loss of leaping ability.
I thought they forbid using headbands?

They are also demanding that Ben tape up. Something he apparently did not do in Detroit.

Anybody read ASBs blog on today's Mlive? Lots of inside stuff, especially about Chauncey and Ben talking every day. In a nutshell, ASB says that the family atmosphere that surrounded Ben in the D insulated us, the fans from a lot of Ben's selfish antics. I guess he was disruptive more than we knew, but he made up for it with his great play. Now he's just disruptive.

The one thing we know, though. When Ben is po'd, the next opponent better watch out. I'm still pulling for the brotha, hope he gets his stats, but the Bulls lose every single game.:gun1:

They are also demanding that Ben tape up. Something he apparently did not do in Detroit.
To they demand that from every player on their squad?

Apparently.

ben doesn't play when he's angry. he either refuses to go into the game or he breaks a team rule so the coach can take him out of the game. ben angry is a good thing because he'll refuse to rebound or score to prove a point to his coach that he is bigger than the team.

I don't agree with bballjay much but on this subject I do. The word was out about Skiles 2 years ago. Tim Thomas did not like Skiles and his ways and was deactivated then waved. There were numerous articles written about Skiles brash in your face coaching style. So what is Ben crying about? I think the whole headband ban is stupid but there are better ways to go about it. Go to the GM, your agent and like I said before file a grievence with the players association if it is that important to you.

Good point. Sounds like a match made in hell. Someone has to give...who will it be?

This is nothing more than a highstake game of chicken. Skiles will cave if the GM gets pressure from the owner. You have to make your franchise player happy. It is how it works in today's sports sadly.

All I can say is consider the source... Sam "the Sham" Smith.
He once saw Big Foot and Elvis on a UFO if ya know what I mean.

Just heard on WDFN that Mat Dairy is supposed to release some old news about Ben when he was with the Pistons sometime between 8-9 . Not sure what its going to be about or even if they meant am or pm.

About all this suff - Ben said he wanted a change. There you go, a lot of changes in how Skiles runs his team.

A lot of times you are better just letting a guy go rather than getting stuck with a contract that you do not want. Orlando traded Mac for Francis and spent a year trying to get rid of him. At least Dumars got enough some cap space to land his 2nd choice in Mohammed. The guy from Portland ( whats his name ) was the 1st choice.

I don't believe the Bulls were trying to trump the Pistons. It was a nice benefit but I don't think thats what it was about. As far as I know the last impact FA they landed was Horas Grant back in 1992? They massivly overpayed for Ron Mercer back in 00 who turned out to be a bust. For some reason they have not been able to attract any high name FA's so I am sure they were thrilled when Ben said yes.

Joe's first choice was Ben. They had offered the MLE to Flip Murray.

Luckily, Murray turned it down thinking there was more money out there.

So then he pitches to Pryzbilla, then Mohammed, and still landed Murray with the Bi-Annual Exception.

I don't think Joe thought he was going to lose Ben and I definitely don't buy the stories that the Pistons found his contract demands beyond reason.

Matt Dery is an insider, but he's a Pistons insider. Whatever he releases will be on the "approved list". Keep that in mind.

Btw, I am getting a little tired of the Ben "piling on" by the Detroit media.

You don't see other markets do this to players after they are gone.

Isn't it nice though to read about some distacting issue thats not about our team.

Btw, I am getting a little tired of the Ben "piling on" by the Detroit media.

You don't see other markets do this to players after they are gone.

I agree. Yes they did. I am not defending some of the mudd that was slung after Ben left. On the other hand I am not exactly about to erect a shrine after someone who blew off and bolted from my Pistons either.

I also meant the 1st choice after Ben had left. Why get stuck with some small forward or something when you don't need it just to say you were able to do a sign and trade.

lol. i was thinking this guy is my alter ego or something. i could have wrote this article. he must read this forum. or maybe just maybe there are some people in the world that see things the way i do about ben. ben was sheltered from this in the detroit press because he has a track record with detroit and the org. i wonder how ben's ego will handle the whole city turning on him.I don't think even you could have written something that defamatory about the malcontent.

That article is just another example of beat writers running amok stirring up whatever turd falls out of their crack.

I don't believe the Bulls were trying to trump the Pistons. It was a nice benefit but I don't think thats what it was about. As far as I know the last impact FA they landed was Horas Grant back in 1992? They massivly overpayed for Ron Mercer back in 00 who turned out to be a bust. For some reason they have not been able to attract any high name FA's so I am sure they were thrilled when Ben said yes.
Arn Tellum is one of, if not the most powerful agent in the NBA. That's Ben's agent. he works for the Wasserman Media Group, a company which also represents former Bull Tim Thomas and Detroit Pistons Amir Johnson and Ronald Murray.

Other clients of the group include

T-Mac
Jamaal Magloire
Joe Johnson
Jermaine O'Neal
Antawn Jamison
Mike Miller
Pau Gasol

and a pretty impressive group of youngins' including

Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Sean May
Jordan Farmar
Ike Diogu
JJ Redick
TJ Ford

amongst many others.

IMO, if the agent gets involved, Skiles will lose.

Some food4thot. ;)

I merged two threads because we were starting to run concurrent discussions in two forums.

This is the latest from Chris McCoskey's blog-that-is-not-a-blog (http://info.detnews.com/pistonsblog/index.cfm).

And yes, I quoted the whole thing because there is no way to link to the specific post (and he basically copied and pasted a lot from a Chicago paper).

Hope you aren't getting tired of all the Ben Wallace posts, but I am betting most of you are as intrigued by this as I am. The deal today was this: Ben took an MRI, he's got a sprained right index finger and a bruise on his right wrist. They are listing him day-to-day. The Bulls fined Wallace for insubordination, but they won't reveal how much. Skiles and Paxson met the media in Chicago and I will send some of those quotes here, courtesy of the Chicago Tribune. Ben didn't practice and he didn't talk to the media.

Here's what I think is at the root of Ben's frustration (other than Skiles' silly power-trippy rules). It's starting to hit Ben that he isn't the player he used to be. All the miles have taken a toll on his legs. If you watch him play, the explosiveness is gone. He can't jump as high and as quickly as he did two years ago. Teams are onto this and they are attacking him without fear. He is no longer the imposing force we all knew and loved. Can he get it back? Yeah, some of it. But I don't think he's going to be the same guy. Even if the physical part of it came back, with the way the games are called now, he still couldn't play defense like he did in 2004. Realizing your skills have diminished, that's the worst moment for a professional athlete. I really think it's playing a part in his acting out so much. I think if you read some of Paxson's comments, he alludes to that.

This isn't a complete transcript, just some highlights....again, courtesy of the Trib....

SKILES
Does this undermine you?
Not really. We have a handful of rules that revolve around how guys present themselves and being on time. That's about it. I don't look at it as a personal attack on me.

Why do you think he broke the rule?
We talked about it after the game. That's nothing I'll go into publicly. We had a long team meeting. But it's not appropriate to reveal what's said behind closed doors. I don't look at this as any earth-shattering event. Things always pass. My instinct is this is not going to have any great effect.

Why aren't you worried about this festering?
I look at it like these things are inevitable. This happens in pro sports. There are things that come up, believe it or not, that you guys never know about. This just happens to be one that got out. I can't predict what's going to happen. But I don't think there will be any longterm ramifications. I've been in the league for 20 years. For some people, just being on time is very restrictive to them. To me, that's common human decency. Everybody has a different standard. I think it's all relative. It depends on what you personally believe in. This is something we believe in. Tuck your shirts in. No headbands. Be on time. THat's the gist of it. I don't think that's anything out of the ordinary.

Can you look at this any other way than it being a direct challenge to you?
If I thought that's what it was, I can still say I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. That could end up being a good thing. Two kids can fight on the playground when they're 8 years old and then they become best friends. I don't think conflict is always a bad thing. Sometimes, it's a good thing. If you can resolve it and other people can see two guys resolve it, it's a pretty basic thing.

What is point of having a team captain if he doesn't support you?
That's a good question.


PAXSON
Opening statement
I feel kind of silly, actually, discussing headbands. Every Sept, Scott and I sit down and go through our team handbook. When I got the job, that wasn't eliminated right away. For those of you who remember, we had guys around here wearing them around their necks, sideways. At that time, we wanted to set a different tone. We adopted that rule. It's not meant in any way to stifle anybody's individuality or creativity. It was just simply part of a structure we were trying to create. The first time any of us were aware Ben had an issue with it was when he took the floor the other night. I've had a chance to sit down with Scott and I spoke on the phone with Ben for a good portion of time. I told him the only thing that's a problem is the way he made his feelings known. That obviously comes across poorly. That's what we have to address. We have rules. We don't have too many. Every team does. I think this is something that's been brought to our attention. I'm going to sit down with Ben again. I don't expect this something to cause our team to fracture, which is always something you worry about.

Team captain, expect more from him?
We brought Ben in to be a stabilizing force for our team, bringing experience and the mentality of toughness and rebounding and defense. Those are things I have talked to him about. And I'll talk to him again about it. I feel badly that this has happened. And it comes on the heels of us not playing well, too, which is my biggest concern. I plan on getting this thing settled. It has to be. I can't allow it to fracture our team and I don't think it will.

Why hasn't Ben played better?
I'm hoping it's just from the change. He doesn't have the same cast around him that he was comfortable with. That always takes time. When Ben and Scott and I talked before the contract was signed, Ben agreed with a lot of the things that we talked about and the way we try to do our business. That was never an issue. As far as playing, I'm hoping he gets comfortable with what we're doing.

Headband a manifestation of deeper issues?
That's something we have to try to get to. I'm going to try to talk to Ben again and see if there's something more to this than just the headband issue. Ben was larger than life in Detroit. He created an image and persona there that people really gravitated towards. That's one of the reasons we went to get him. And he's a good basketball player. His strengths are real strengths in this league. Maybe the change hasn't settled in yet. That takes time.

Do you have good line of communication with Ben?
I get answered. I've tried to be as open with players as I could possibly be since I've been here and understand where they're coming from. We have to be a little careful in terms of changing something for one player at this kind of time. If I knew this was going to be an issue a month or two ago and Ben had expressed that to us, that might've been a way to handle it. Right now, we're in a tough position. We have the rule for the right reasons. The lines of communication are fine. When I called him yesterday, I left a message and he called me right back. I feel I can talk to him. All I ask is that any player be up front, honest and tell me what's on their mind. If it can be corrected, it can be corrected. But not everything can be.

Has he expressed any regrets to you about signing here?
He hasn't said anything to us. But that goes back to the change thing. I know this very well: When you play with a group of guys for a long time, especially when you win, there's a bond there that is difficult to break. It's difficult to maybe get by.

Did his history with coaches concern you?
Part of my job, part of the coaching staff's job is to massage guys a little bit and get out of them what we need to get out of them. Did I expect this to be a perfect thing? Nothing's perfect in this business. Coach-player relationships are always tough. If you try to appease the player, you get run over. If you hold such a hard line that there's no flexibility, you come off as a guy that's too difficult to play for. The fact is we have to address this now. We've started that process. Our relationship is fairly new. But Ben doesn't strike me as a guy that wants to disrupt what a team is all about. He's been a part of too many good teams that have played together. He's still a guy that we are totally counting on. We want him to get acclimated and comfortable and playing at a high level. Obviously, we still think he can do that.

Thats some usefull information.

60mil and a pwerfull agent who controls so many players vs Skiles? GM would really be sticking his neck out if he did back him.

As long as they keep losing. I just can't get down with wishing well for the Bulls. If it were any other team I might be more sympathetic, to be completly honest I am actually enjoying the show.

wow. lots of talking for a non-issue.

notice pax say's he doesn't think this will fracture the team.

Any chance this is set-up between Skiles and Ben to get a fire going?

Apparently.
now that is crazy- sure, they want their players to remain healthy (especially if they have fat contracts like Ben) but this is simply stupid.
Ben's ankles have been ok for his entire career and now he's treated like a little child that doesn't know how to take care of himself?
Everyone who ever played basketball with and without tapes know their negative impact on your game. You lose some of your leap and furthermore you lose much of your quickness- that's why most of the players start taping AFTER they had issues with their ankles, but not to prohibit them.
I don't think that this is a common team rule in the NBA, could it be?

Somewhat on the subject of the headband ban..

Personally, I may not be a very athletic dude, but I sweat more off my head than Chauncey after the pre-game shootaround. If I couldn't wear a headband, I'd be blind most of the game.

Anybody feel me on this?

Somewhat on the subject of the headband ban..

Personally, I may not be a very athletic dude, but I sweat more off my head than Chauncey after the pre-game shootaround. If I couldn't wear a headband, I'd be blind most of the game.

Anybody feel me on this?
Hell yeah. Sweating doesn't have that much to do with how good you're in shape- it's more of genetical issue. I have guys on my squad who don't sweat in the sauna or run huge distances while sweating only a little bit.
And then, there are guys like me, who start sweating while they're still sitting on the bench :pound:
Without a headband, I'm worthless- I would need eyebrows like a coat to avoid the sweat pearls falling into my eyes.
With Ben, I think he doesn't need the headband because of that- I'd say it's more of an image thing

wristbands...and stop shaving your eyebrows a la Charlie V...mister Z.

The Bulls had a lot of younger players and I think the rule made sense then. This is a interesting chicken vs. egg subplot. The Bull want Big Ben to be the Big Ben they stole from Detroit but they won't let him be Big Ben.

This is a interesting chicken vs. egg subplot.

I agree. I also think that its a game of chicken. Who will flinch first? My bet is Skiles.

Re: Matt Dery on WDFN. I should be able to post it within an hour or so.

Are there any connection ? Ben's leaving and Rip's hair. I'm kinda they ain't coincidence. :stirthepot:

or maybe just maybe there are some people in the world that see things the way i do

This is the Quote of the Day in my book.

Here they are....

WDFN's Matt Dery "upset with himself" about not "exposing Ben earlier". Some audio from Skiles and perhaps Paxson. I think I went to the bathroom during that part.

Next is Sam Smith with Matt Dery, talking about Ben in Chicago.

These two clips are nasty. If you like Ben, if you treasure him as one of your favorite Pistons, you might not want to listen to these.

I am NOT baiting you, its an honest disclaimer up front.

I don't like it, but think that I could live with the headband and the music thing if I were a player. However, the ankle taping seems like it is a very personal decision. I would not be happy if I was forced to tape my ankles before games. A lot of times, the ankle gives and it reduces the shock on the knee.

Why doesn't every team force it's players to do this if it is such a good idea?

I really thought Ben and Skiles would get along great. Man was I wrong.

Processes like this is called discipline to submissive which has been going on throught more than 400 years to any newly acquisition. I shouldn't say things like this but I can't.

Matt Dery "upset with himself" about not "exposing Ben earlier".


Thought that this lately exposing does make some people better by now, uhm.
Can I say I'm upset with my self for being misled in past seasons by something untold ?

I don't care about how much a player depends on his athletic ability, a player will not go down this fast. Is it just me or have the Bulls already gotten lazy on D because they assume Ben is back there? Because when you have a good defensive team and you add one of the best defenders in NBA history shouldn't your defense get better? At least the Pistons started to get in this mode when they won Chicago hasn't done anything.

Any person who has watched the Bulls are they not trying hard, or are they in a real bad slump right now?

Thought that this lately exposing does make some people better by now, uhm.
Can I say I'm upset with my self for being misled in past seasons by something untold ?
I emailed him that. That it is easy to condemn Ben and "reveal" him now. He's no longer a Piston.

He did gracefully avoid my question about revealing future Pistons crybabies. lol.

This revealing just make me wonder how many sides the story has.
I love Ben I love Pistons, I'm happy that I don't have to take any side and just have fun to watch the games.
Thanx Micro, do your thangs.

I don't like it, but think that I could live with the headband and the music thing if I were a player. However, the ankle taping seems like it is a very personal decision. I would not be happy if I was forced to tape my ankles before games. A lot of times, the ankle gives and it reduces the shock on the knee.

Why doesn't every team force it's players to do this if it is such a good idea?

I really thought Ben and Skiles would get along great. Man was I wrong.

Back in the day it seemed like everybody taped all the time. There were pecking orders in teams as to whom had to get to the tape room first so as to get out of the way of the veterans.

Sounds like there was been a sea-change in how players think about taping. True? I just thought everybody did it.

What is really getting me ticked is how all of a sudden the Detroit media is coming out with anti-Ben crap. Oh players covered for him. We covered for him.
He was your golden boy for years...now you want to come out of the closet? thats just weak.
bbjay and the low might not be standing around during practices but at least they have opinions of their own.

Back in the day it seemed like everybody taped all the time. There were pecking orders in teams as to whom had to get to the tape room first so as to get out of the way of the veterans.

Sounds like there was been a sea-change in how players think about taping. True? I just thought everybody did it.

i dunno man. the headband thing i could see as not a big deal, but when you have your rituals you feel comfortable. like rip has a routine at the free throw line, etc.

personally i could live with the headband stuff, but NOT taping the ankles. i would die. as it is, when i play basketball i have to have the lightest, lowest-cut shoes i can find, which usually means ZERO ankle support, but i have maximum mobility and have never sprained it or anything (the most i do is wear two pairs of socks). if i had to play with high-tops or taped ankles i would seriously consider not even playing.

They've crapped on Ben since he left. It's a shame.

I think the Bulls are just trying to protect their investments with the ankle-taping rule. When you got a $60 million guy flying around, you don't want him to land on someone else's foot, turn an ankle, and miss a couple of weeks. We saw recently with the Bruce Bowen crap that sometimes it isn't even your fault when you sprain an ankle.

What if an NFL player wanted to play without shoulder pads?

I think the Bulls are just trying to protect their investments with the ankle-taping rule. When you got a $60 million guy flying around, you don't want him to land on someone else's foot, turn an ankle, and miss a couple of weeks. We saw recently with the Bruce Bowen crap that sometimes it isn't even your fault when you sprain an ankle.

What if an NFL player wanted to play without shoulder pads?

This ankle taping thing is fascinating to me. I understand why the preventative protecting of the investment angle for the management would be attractive. And having been an athlete myself who had to tape one of my ankles for about six months when I was a 10 meter tower diver in college, I know that it absolutely limits mobility, speed and power. Now maybe a really talented athlete can make those adjustments in their body, but it would feel like playing through mud at least initially.

I had no idea that taping was done in this way in basketball. Now the thing that confuses me is taping for practice, but not the games. This is a really good way to confuse the body and the mind, undo any adjustments that have been made and generally just reek havoc on the kinesthetic senses an athlete depends on. I know when I finally could dive without taping that ankle I felt like everything felt faster and easier. I don't know how we could find out, but I would be really interested in what other team's trai