Wow, offense on Wade...

Heat have the advantage on the boards because Posey, out of nowhere, is having a Rodman-type game: he has 16 boards!

Nocioni is the truth.

A truth we haven`t really dealt with this year!

Mr. "I make them when the count" Shaq just bricked another 2 FTs. 0-7 for the game.

After this game I am taking a nap. I really want to see Mavs/Warriors!

HTF is that clear path? This is total BS

That clear path call was crap.

Basketball should just have an official "advantage" rule like in soccer, i.e. the ref can indicate that he's not calling the foul because the team being hacked is about to score anyway.

Shaq is useless. He's making Ben Wallace look good.

What a pass from Gordon!

And Ben with the tipin!

Is Mourning praying..............:pound:

OMG, Deng steals it, scores in Wade's grill, and one...that was huge.

I hate Shaq and Wade so much, it is killing me to cheer for them.

LOL at Wade trying the Carlos Arroyo wait-until-the-last-possible-minute-to-hack route and giving up the basket.

Wade is deferring to Jason Kapono?

A &^%$* sweep..........I am loving this.

For all the talk about Ben Wallace forcing his team to play 4-on-5, the Bulls have more or less ignored Udonis Haslem and his reliable 12-foot jumpshot for every 4th quarter in this series in order to double Wade and Miami hasn't been able to make them pay yet.

I hope to God that these "...sexy" commercials will go the way of Wade by next week at the latest.

I hate Shaq and Wade so much, it is killing me to cheer for them.

Exactly. That's why I prefer to just defer to my faith in the Pistons that they can handle the Bulls, which leaves me free to root for the most humiliating defeat possible for Miami.

Miami can't even handle the ball properly here. They're looking like that other Florida team in the clutch.

Hinrich picks Wade's pocket; Ben rips the loose ball away from Shaq; Ben Gordon to the line for free points.

And Hinrich blocks Wade!

Seven points will be too much for Miami to overcome in about 25 seconds.

Hack-a-Ben in effect here...he's 3-4 so far today.

And he makes BOTH!

:pound:
:pound:
:pound:
:pound:
:pound:

And now Ben swishes ANOTHER TWO! Bird-esque!

free throw count

Snaq: 0-7
Body: 7-8


ouch!

Man, Skiles should have really pulled Ben Wallace so MIA couldn't foul him.

What a great day in NBA History.

Man, Skiles should have really pulled Ben Wallace so MIA couldn't foul him.

Low it took you way too long to say that bro!!!!!!!!

i wish i could see Zo's face right now!!

Man, it's hard being this right this often...:sssh:

Heat crowd gave up about 30 seconds ago. It's all ovah. Shaq might as well have stayed on the bench for the last couple of minutes; he literally did nothing on either end.

i wish i could see Zo's face right now!!

He is probably crying. They will not show him....

Riley pulling Shaq and Wade for the 50 fans left in the crowd to applaud.

Which they barely did.

LMAO.......THEY MIGHT REALLY CRY.........:pound: :pound:

Man, it's hard being this right this often...:sssh:
Can the Pistons beat the Bulls?

Big Ben goes 2-2 and another 2-2 free throws in Hack-A-Ben in crunch time!!!!

Miami's announcer out of the playoffs... you know.

:party:

Bulls went from 21 turnovers in Game 3 to 5 in Game 4. We'll have to get that number on the higher side in the next round.

So people call the Pistons '04 win a fluke because they only got back to the finals the next year and lost in 7.

So what will they call last years Heat championship huh? HUHHH??????

Damn straight fakers!!!!

The champs have been swept in the first round. Notwithstanding everything that's happened to the Heat this year, I'm surprised with this result.

The ECF is clearly the Pistons-Bulls series. I'm looking forward to it.

Can the Pistons beat the Bulls?


I think it'll go 7 games.

Pistons in 6, maybe 5.

Don`t let the smooth taste fool ya!!!!!!!:stirthepot:

So people call the Pistons '04 win a fluke because they only got back to the finals the next year and lost in 7.

So what will they call last years Heat championship huh? HUHHH??????

Damn straight fakers!!!!

But...but...Wade's shoulder...and his knee...and Shaq missed half the season...and...and...:hurt:

Can the Pistons beat the Bulls?

They CAN, but I don't think it will be easy and if they don't focus and exhibit a killer instinct they CAN lose as well.

They CAN, but I don't think it will be easy and if they don't focus and exhibit a killer instinct they CAN lose as well.
Who are you cheering for?

Who are you cheering for?

:boink: :pop2:

I just want to know what I am in for during chat. lol

Can the Pistons beat the Bulls?

Not sure about the rest of you, but I am concerned (worried) about these Bulls. IMO this is the ECF and the Pistons should not take them lightly. The heat were old so they could not keep up with the young fast Bulls. We are not that old, but we are almost there.

The first two games at the Palace will determine who wins this series. The Bulls are as high as can be at the moment. They will have no fear and their confidence couldn`t be higher right now. To come into the Palace and win game 1 and God forbid, take both games it would be a hole the Pistons would not emerge from.

IMO, The pistons need to win both opening games at the Palace. That way it will strike fear and doubt into the minds of the Bulls.

Riles seemed to be handling things pretty well after this game. Obviously he knew that it was over after Game 3. He appears to have accepted the obvious fact that he was able to get one 'ship only out of this bunch, which is a great achievement, but they're not getting another one.

Hopefully this week off will allow the magic and invincibility to wear off the Bulls. To play them right now while they're on a roll would be worse than to wait a week.

Agreed, webz. Alaa Abdelnaby on NBA TV was just saying that he expects the more experienced team to handle the long layoff better than the younger one.

Omg this the greatest thing ever. I just talked to my cousin down here in South Florida and he sounded so dejected it was if he was "sick."
He went on and on about Wade's shoulder and knee making excuse after excuse. Wade's knee and shoulder should not have any impact on his free throw shooting for himself and for the rest of his teamates for that matter. The Heat may have been a fluke and I think its great that they are %%%%ing out of there. When Shaq was asked last year by a South Florida reporter if the Pistons were still a great team he responded by saying "the Detroit Pistons are officially finshed." No Shaq the "%%%%in" Heaters are finished.

Riles seemed to be handling things pretty well after this game. Obviously he knew that it was over after Game 3. He appears to have accepted the obvious fact that he was able to get one 'ship only out of this bunch, which is a great achievement, but they're not getting another one.

I see a break up here with possible retirements by Zo and the glove and Antoine Walker and Eddie Jones moving on too if both are FA. Shaq will hang around for another year but his dominince is gone and Wade will need another big man and more help off the bench to get back to the big dance.

IMO the Bulls would have beaten the Heat even if wade were 100% healthy probably 4-2.

I'm a little worried about facing these Bulls. Mostly, however, I am very excited to see what looks to be an unforgetable series.

Created in the image of the 2004 Pistons, the Bulls are young, fast and athletic. They play a perimeter oriented game that relies on solid execution of their plays. They play Defense. They are hungry. They are often underestimated. They have the often underestimated 4 time DPOY that is familiar with the Pistons strategy, and has practiced against some of their key players. They kicked the Pistons butts 3 out of 4 times they met this year.

If it ain't rough, it ain't right. Pistons in 6.

IMO the Bulls would have beaten the Heat even if wade were 100% healthy probably 4-2.

Yeah, I agree. Maybe 4-1. Wade wasn't 100%, but it's not like he was anywhere near as low as, say, 50%.

Low was arguing with me in chat yesterday about how the Pistons would have swept the '89 Finals even if Magic and Byron hadn't been hurt. I say :hand: to that...but the Bad Boys still would have brought home the ship in 6. :nod:

Riles seemed to be handling things pretty well after this game. Obviously he knew that it was over after Game 3. He appears to have accepted the obvious fact that he was able to get one 'ship only out of this bunch, which is a great achievement, but they're not getting another one.
Considered starting a thread on the end of the Heat's run (brief as it was)... if you look at their salary commitments it doesn't look good for them... Shaq & Walker are locked up thru 09/10...
They don't have an early draft pick... and they have untradable players... unless you want a complimentary player like Haslem or Fatoine.
DWade is in for a long painful career in Miami.

Yeah, I agree. Maybe 4-1. Wade wasn't 100%, but it's not like he was anywhere near as low as, say, 50%.

Low was arguing with me in chat yesterday about how the Pistons would have swept the '89 Finals even if Magic and Byron hadn't been hurt. I say :hand: to that...but the Bad Boys still would have brought home the ship in 6. :nod:
No I don't think the Pistons would have swept it either. I am thinking six too. Do you recall if they split the season series that year (88-89) or did either of them sweep that? I was here in LA then but the only games I went to was games 1, 2 and 6 of the finals in 1988 and don't remember what happen during the 88-89 season matchups. I do recall the Pistons holding the Lakers to 0 points in a regular season OT game at the Forum, but don't recall if it was in 88, 89, 90 or 91.

well...well...well.........HERE WE go!!

The Return of the:afro: Bong!!!:yo: :starwars: :diablo: :darthvader: ....

as you can see in my illustration, the conflict is immense. HQ tips his hat in respect until he is confronted by the evil Sith Lord, Darth Bong. The evil is surfaced by the fear and anger of my loss of Lord 3 to the enemy Bulls until I transform to Darth Q(aka Lord Silliness). My heart will be on my sleeve the next two weeks and there is not enough alchohol in Carolina to get me through this series! May the Force enbalm me.:shout:

No I don't think the Pistons would have swept it either. I am thinking six too. Do you recall if they split the season series that year (88-89) or did either of them sweep that? I was here in LA then but the only games I went to was games 1, 2 and 6 of the finals in 1988 and don't remember what happen during the 88-89 season matchups. I do recall the Pistons holding the Lakers to 0 points in a regular season OT game at the Forum, but don't recall if it was in 88, 89, 90 or 91.

I know that the Pistons won both regular season games against the Lakers in '88-'89, but I don't remember when that 0-pt OT game might have been.

It's alright... sir lord Isiah is rooting for the Pistons.

Da - amn.

About the six minute mark of the fourth the Bulls just took their heart. Course the Heat will claim all sorts of extenuating circumstances. And I just don't care.

36 minutes
13 points
11 boards
3-6 and 7-8

All right, I need to stop this. It's just making me annoyed all over again about the ECF last year.

I hated Big Ben for a while. It didn't last very long. Way to hit those FT's Ben.

The TNT crew just unveiled the "Gone Fishing" picture for the Heat, with Kenny, Shaq, and Wade holding onto a big swordfish on the front of the boat. Crockett and Tubbs were in the background on the boat, along with Tony Montana, and Fidel Castro was floating in the water. :laugh:

Who are you cheering for?

I am cheering for Ben Wallace and the Detroit Pistons

I am cheering for Ben Wallace and the Detroit Pistons
Don't forget Flip Saunders! :D

I am cheering for Ben Wallace and the Detroit Pistons
That was a little easier to do last season. :ohwell:

I am cheering for Ben Wallace and the Detroit Pistons


Interesting...........Ben Wallace was listed First.............

Interesting...........Ben Wallace was listed First.............

I personally blame Ben Wallace for losing the Heat series last season.

Anyway, you can't mail in the reg-season like the Heat did and expect to do well in the post-season. May get lucky like they did last year but its not going to sustain a prolonged run.

I know they had a lot of injuries but something was missing. They spent half the season playing without Shaq and the other half without Wade. Maybe it got to the point where the other guys did not know what their rolls were anymore.

I really enjoyed watching the hack-a-Ben strategy lose the game for Miami.

Now, since Miami has all the same pieces as last year, and got swept out of the first round, can we officially call them a fluke? OK, It's settled then. It was all a big fluke last year. Ha.

I wonder if D Wade will EVER win another title. My guess is no.

I really enjoyed watching the hack-a-Ben strategy lose the game for Miami.

Now, since Miami has all the same pieces as last year, and got swept out of the first round, can we officially call them a fluke? OK, It's settled then. It was all a big fluke last year. Ha.

I wonder if D Wade will EVER win another title. My guess is no.

They were within 5 with about 2:30 to go when they started that. Well within range to pull it out. It worked for them last year, this time it put them down by 9 very quickly. Riley did not even give his guys a chance to win the game with that.

What a totally humiliating way for the defending NBA champs to go out. Blown out like the Magic.

I love it.

I would have liked Miami to win a game or two, but now that they are out, whew, what a relief.

They played so poorly, they were so overmatched. How can anyone consider them anything more than paper champions after they won 4 straight on friendly whistles last June, and then folded this season like a cheap lawnchair?

The Bulls are a very good defensive team, but they are far from dominant. Several times Miami was close enough to make a move, but they couldn't hit FTs, couldn't get stops and couldn't make plays with anyone besides Dwyane Wade.

Why would anyone want to bring Shaq back next season? He looks horrible. His career is in a decaying orbit.

Miami had conquered all when everyone said the odds were stacked against them a year ago. That magic would repeat itself. It had to. The Heat was not going to become the first champion in 50 years to get swept out of the first round the following postseason. Pat Riley knew winning four straight after going down 0-3 had never happened in the history of the league, but he optimistically felt that was bound to change.

ROFL! :pound:


Chicago Bulls, Dwyane Wade, Shaquille O'Neal, National Basketball Association, Miami Heat - CBS SportsLine.com (http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/10157298)

They were within 5 with about 2:30 to go when they started that. Well within range to pull it out. It worked for them last year, this time it put them down by 9 very quickly. Riley did not even give his guys a chance to win the game with that.

It worked for them last year because our inept head coach pulled Wallace as a result and we had no more defensive and/or rebounding presence to assist us in actually keeping control of games. It actually made it harder for us to control games and insured MIA's victory.

It worked for them last year because Rasheed Wallace was playing on a bum ankle and Chauncey Billups was in dire need of some nap time.

If Ben shot FTs for us last year the way he has this year, people wouldn't be intentionally fouling him.

It worked for them last year because Rasheed Wallace was playing on a bum ankle and Chauncey Billups was in dire need of some nap time.

If Ben shot FTs for us last year the way he has this year, people wouldn't be intentionally fouling him.

I get it, so Ben Wallace has become an awesome FT shooter this season...:afro:

Also remember that Miami's role players, collectively, were WAY better in last year's playoffs. JWill was something like 10-11 from the floor in the clinching Game 6 for them last year against the Pistons. Against the Bulls this year? Not so much.

Also remember that Miami's role players, collectively, were WAY better in last year's playoffs. JWill was something like 10-11 from the floor in the clinching Game 6 for them last year against the Pistons. Against the Bulls this year? Not so much.

That is what flukes are made of. Lightning struck last year.

This playoffs against Miami, 11/18.

Last playoffs against Miami, 10/24.

Yeah. Riles gambled that all those schmucks would be able to produce when it counted. Winning it all was vindication for his strategy, but the downside is that it fell apart immediately afterwards, leaving them stuck with a bunch of "old-ass cats" who can't get it done anymore.

I sort of thought the Bulls looked sloppy with the ball in game 3, but they came out tonight and only had 5 turnovers... 1 off of the NBA playoffs record of 4 (set by the Pistons twice).

This feels like the prelude to a great boxing match. Except for the Spurs, we haven't really played any opponents in the past few years that I thought could beat us fair and square. The Bulls CAN. This series will have nothing to do with marketing, bad whistles, pathetic vets trying to get a free ring, etc. It's all about game-planning, execution, and hunger.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4049/472070730706ccf5e64xu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I get it, so Ben Wallace has become an awesome FT shooter this season...:afro:

Skiles has often pulled Ben at the end of games and will do it again if he becomes a liability. He did not do it yesterday because it was working for him. Ben shot around 20% from the line for us in last years Miami series, I think that was a record.

Skiles has often pulled Ben at the end of games and will do it again if he becomes a liability. He did not do it yesterday because it was working for him. Ben shot around 20% from the line for us in last years Miami series, I think that was a record.

We'll be at this until the end of time....

You think Ben's a liability

I think Ben's an asset.

We don't agree.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, it's just a matter of which team will be able to bring their respective strong points to the forefront while preventing their weaknesses from being exploited.

Right now I'm not as convinced that Chicago is as adept at hiding Bens weaknesses while exploiting his strengths as the Detroit Pistons had become, and in no way do I make that statement to disparage Ben Wallace.

He brought a Championship to our town, and I'm fairly convinced Chicago will get at least one before Ben is done.

Just not this year. :)

We'll be at this until the end of time....

You think Ben's a liability

I think Ben's an asset.

We don't agree.

He is not a liability. I am just not going to root for someone who is one a team we are facing in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Skiles does pull him sometimes. Ben is ok with it this year - thats the way it is.

He is not a liability. I am just not going to root for someone who is one a team we are facing in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Skiles does pull him sometimes. Ben is ok with it this year - thats the way it is.

Well, I feel Ben has gotten a bit more negative response than he deserves...I'm here to "balance it out."

The big difference here is, Skiles pulls Ben when someone else is having a great night or Ben's having a bad night, or when he needs a bucket at the last second...not just when other teams decide to employ a strategy that never works and ONLY works when you react to it by pulling Ben thereby removing your strongest defensive/rebounding presence.

Well, I feel Ben has gotten a bit more negative response than he deserves...I'm here to "balance it out."

The big difference here is, Skiles pulls Ben when someone else is having a great night or Ben's having a bad night, or when he needs a bucket at the last second...not just when other teams decide to employ a strategy that never works and ONLY works when you react to it by pulling Ben thereby removing your strongest defensive/rebounding presence.

Point is Skiles is doing many of the same things Flip did that Ben went ballistic over. Its good for him that he has checked himself, bad for us because it did not help in the playoff run last season.

That was last season.

It's a little easier to make sacrifices for the team when you are locked in to a long term $60 Million contract.

Ben paid his dues with Detroit and started to feel a little unappreciated by the coach toward the end. And when you are in a contract year, you don't want some Johnny-come-lately coach to screw with your stats and your reputation.

Point is Skiles is doing many of the same things Flip did that Ben went ballistic over.



Very true.

If Flip would have tried to implement a no headband rule last year....he may have gotten "The Spreewell" from Big Ben:fear:

Ben paid his dues with Detroit and started to feel a little unappreciated by the coach toward the end. And when you are in a contract year, you don't want some Johnny-come-lately coach to screw with your stats and your reputation.

Key word stats.

All of the players for years had been saying how much of a team the Pistons were and noone cared about individual stats so long as the wins were coming.

Ben went totally against that, and tried to disguise his desire for great stats entering contract negotiations as concern for team and team only.
In the end both sides told stories that I believe were squarely on either side of the facts at the time.

Point is Skiles is doing many of the same things Flip did that Ben went ballistic over.
A smaller insult can become intolerable when it's part of a trend of mistreatment.

Skiles probably gets leeway because his and Ben's basic basketball philosophies are in agreement in a way Ben's and Flip's never were, but in any case Skiles has not yet removed him from an entire quarter of playoff basketball.
noone cared about individual stats so long as the wins were coming.
Never happen.

It's a little easier to make sacrifices for the team when you are locked in to a long term $60 Million contract.



Plus it's harder to play the same song you played last year without looking like the malcontent for certain second time around.

Either way we are sort of in agreement that Ben put stats and $$$ above the team in a very unPistonlike way.

I don't blame him, but I will always contend that Ben played conservatively during last years playoffs in order to avoid injury.

Never happen.

Surely you don't contest that Pistons players never claimed this?

Ben got what he wanted. He got 60 million, and he earned the money.
Ben got what he wanted. New goals with a different organization. The ability to be considered the veteran leader of the team. He left at the right time for him. Chicago fans loves him as he lead his team past the first round. Ben misses his Detroit friends (former teammates) but he now plays........CHICAGO BASKETBALL...........doesn't sound right !!!!!!!

Skiles probably gets leeway because his and Ben's basic basketball philosophies are in agreement in a way Ben's and Flip's never were,



Funny, but Skiles and Flip have fairly similar philosophies. The only difference I see is that Skiles was less likely to take crap from Ben out of the gate.

This weekend Ben will remain an ex-Pistons, an ex-Pistons who will try and stick it to his old team.

If you think Ben was mistreated and want to see a nice playoff run sacraficed so Ben can have his revenge and Dumars taught a lesson then so be it. Or if you just want to see Ben do well and let chips fall where they will, then feel free.

It is comming though, make no mistake about that.

With all things being equal the Pistons should win this series. So it is kind of test of coaching styles and bbal philosophy of how Ben thinks the game should be played ( since he partly left the Pistons for it ) versus the new direction that we have gone in.

Which side of the fence are you going to be on?

Funny, but Skiles and Flip have fairly similar philosophies. The only difference I see is that Skiles was less likely to take crap from Ben out of the gate.

I see some other differences.

Surely you don't contest that Pistons players never claimed this?
I don't know or care everything they've claimed. But if they did claim this, they were either stupid or lying.

I don't know or care everything they've claimed. But if they did claim this, they were either stupid or lying.

I suppose this isn't worth discussing if you don't realize how many Pistons (including Ben Wallace) were saying this for many, many years.

I'd like to not think the players I root for are only either stupid or lying.

I see some other differences.

I see minute ones.

My favorite fabricated one, however, is the one about Saunders not concentrating on defense.

Personally, my favorite fabrication is that Ben Wallace did concentrate on defense.

After all, the Pistons fielded the best defensive team they've had since the late '80s when Nazr Mohammed was in the starting lineup.

Personally, my favorite fabrication is that Ben Wallace did concentrate on defense.

After all, the Pistons fielded the best defensive team they've had since the late '80s when Nazr Mohammed was in the starting lineup.

Great. Next you'll tell us that "time to go to work" is just a marketing slogan.

Speaking of coaches, did anyone notice how Chauncey Billups called Orlando a "well coached team"?

Is he being serious, or angling for the negotiations?

Point is Skiles is doing many of the same things Flip did that Ben went ballistic over. Its good for him that he has checked himself, bad for us because it did not help in the playoff run last season.

That was last season.

I just disagree. Skiles' approach does have a distinctively more defensive approach no matter how you slice it. The point is not to say that Flip should have played Ben 48 min/game no matter what the circumstances. The point is that Saunders and Skiles have very different methods as to when and why to substitute Ben Wallace. Brown used Wallace effectively without having to "never" pull him from the game and Skiles has followed a path that is closer to how Larry Brown used to use Ben Wallace than Flip Saunders.

Substitutions alone are not the sole amunition for Wallace going "ballistic." Saunders' coaching methods are not condusive to maximizing Ben Wallace's talent. Wallace realized it and Saunders should have paid attention to what was successful before he arrived and at least incorporated some of the approach considering his playoff record prior to arriving was questionable at best.

...but I will always contend that Ben played conservatively during last years playoffs in order to avoid injury.

If it makes you feel more like a true Pistons fan to basically invent character flaws in an ex-player, I hope it's working.

That is completely unfounded.

Iconsidering his playoff record prior to arriving was questionable at best.

What playoff record are you talking about? The one where the Wolves were never favored in all but one of the series and pretty always got to face the Spurs or the Lakers?

LB is a great coach and was the right person at the right time. Joe D himself said Flip coached tentatively the first season as he didn't want to rock the boat with a group of established players. Is Flip a great coach, no, but he is not a bum that is often suggested. Ben did and does have a big ego, no critcism of his contribution as player, but he didn't like what he saw and acted on it in his own way. I am not trying to defend Flip, but there has to be some balance in criticizing him too. RC got booted out of Indy, he is a very good defensive coach who wears on his players and can't seem to get them over the hump.

I think the Bulls series will tell us a lot more about Flip and the players. Let's give him a chance.

What playoff record are you talking about? The one where the Wolves were never favored in all but one of the series and pretty always got to face the Spurs or the Lakers?

LB is a great coach and was the right person at the right time. Joe D himself said Flip coached tentatively the first season as he didn't want to rock the boat with a group of established players. Is Flip a great coach, no, but he is not a bum that is often suggested. Ben did and does have a big ego, no critcism of his contribution as player, but he didn't like what he saw and acted on it in his own way. I am not trying to defend Flip, but there has to be some balance in criticizing him too. RC got booted out of Indy, he is a very good defensive coach who wears on his players and can't seem to get them over the hump.

I think the Bulls series will tell us a lot more about Flip and the players. Let's give him a chance.

You can also include the 04 ECF when they were the higher seed and still lost to the Lakers. I didn't like Cola as coach either, the same way I don't like Flip as coach. As you said, he is not a great coach. That means, there is definitely someone better than him we could have hired instead of just handing him the job once LB was pushed out the door.

I don't like the way he coaches and if he proves me wrong by winning it all, I'll be the first to admit it. But, personally I don't like him as coach and would rather Joe D had spent more time looking for candidates. As inept as Cola was...Ben Wallace wasn't begging for a trade. As much of a "drama king" as many here make LB out to be, Ben Wallace wasn't itching to get out of town (and his trade value couldn't have been higher than at this point). Lo and behold here comes Saunders and next thing we know, we're triple teaming Lebron, Wade, and Shaq...getting humiliated by CLE into a 7 game series, and getting bounced by a team we should have beaten and our best defensive player is outta here.

It's simply amazing how the guy that has accomplished the least has the most supporters. Call me crazy


But, then again everyone cried like babies when Cola was fired so I guess I shouldn't be surprised in the regular season wins love-fest.

You can also include the 04 ECF when they were the higher seed and still lost to the Lakers. I didn't like Cola as coach either, the same way I don't like Flip as coach. As you said, he is not a great coach. That means, there is definitely someone better than him we could have hired instead of just handing him the job once LB was pushed out the door.

I don't like the way he coaches and if he proves me wrong by winning it all, I'll be the first to admit it. But, personally I don't like him as coach and would rather Joe D had spent more time looking for candidates. As inept as Cola was...Ben Wallace wasn't begging for a trade. As much of a "drama king" as many here make LB out to be, Ben Wallace wasn't itching to get out of town (and his trade value couldn't have been higher than at this point). Lo and behold here comes Saunders and next thing we know, we're triple teaming Lebron, Wade, and Shaq...getting humiliated by CLE into a 7 game series, and getting bounced by a team we should have beaten and our best defensive player is outta here.

It's simply amazing how the guy that has accomplished the least has the most supporters. Call me crazy


But, then again everyone cried like babies when Cola was fired so I guess I shouldn't be surprised in the regular season wins love-fest.

The Cleveland series was as much Flip's coaching as it was the players. They could'nt hit the broad side of barn from the field and made mistakes that a veteran team shouldn't have. Should Flip have stepped in and taken a harder approach, yeas, but all the hype was that the Pistons were a bunch of players who could turn on the switch and take it to another level. Joe D has identified this weakness many times. In some ways the team has too much cockiness. No love or dislike for Flip, just waiting to see the results speak for themselves. Ben did the right thing, get the best contract he could. I would have loved to see him in a Pistons uniform but not at that price and it was clear that he and Flip couldn't co-exist.

...it was clear that he and Flip couldn't co-exist.

...which is precisely why I don't feel bad about hoping he does well.

I have my own feelings about what Saunders could have done during that CLE series...but they ain't paying me to screw it up so it doesn't make much difference.

...which is precisely why I don't feel bad about hoping he does well.



I hope he does well too, just not against the Pistons. He was a sight to watch in the Miami series, got into Shaq's head, rebounds, tips etc. Looked like the Ben of old.

I'm just going to point out the obvious here.

How we "root" is not going to affect the outcome of the games. If Low wants to root for Ben Wallace, then he should do it. Judging by the 966 posts, he is obviously a Pistons fan.

Whoa...just last week I was at 79 trying to get into playoff chat...:ranger:

Whoa...just last week I was at 79 trying to get into playoff chat...:ranger:
You silly man. You practically own the chat.

But ahb and I came up with the hyperbolic zone.

I just disagree. Skiles' approach does have a distinctively more defensive approach no matter how you slice it. The point is not to say that Flip should have played Ben 48 min/game no matter what the circumstances. The point is that Saunders and Skiles have very different methods as to when and why to substitute Ben Wallace. Brown used Wallace effectively without having to "never" pull him from the game and Skiles has followed a path that is closer to how Larry Brown used to use Ben Wallace than Flip Saunders.

Substitutions alone are not the sole amunition for Wallace going "ballistic." Saunders' coaching methods are not condusive to maximizing Ben Wallace's talent. Wallace realized it and Saunders should have paid attention to what was successful before he arrived and at least incorporated some of the approach considering his playoff record prior to arriving was questionable at best.

From what I have seen in Chic Ben has mainly been used as a bit player, a tanglible player. A lot like Michael Curry.

Its still not too late. You can actually enjoy this playoff run with the rest of us. Pistons are going to beat the Bulls.

From what I have seen in Chic Ben has mainly been used as a bit player, a tanglible player. A lot like Michael Curry.

Its still not too late. You can actually enjoy this playoff run with the rest of us. Pistons are going to beat the Bulls.

Invoking the name of one #12 will not assist you in making the completely absurd notion that there was some form of parallel between Big Ben and one M. Curry.

I'll enjoy my playoff run from right where I am, sir.

I love you guys. Seriously.

...But ahb and I came up with the hyperbolic zone.

and THAT, sir, is a crime for which you shall never be forgiven....NEVER!!! :yellowprison:

Invoking the name of one #12 will not assist you in making the completely absurd notion that there was some form of parallel between Big Ben and one M. Curry.

I'll enjoy my playoff run from right where I am, sir.


C'mon Low. Leave the past behind. Ben got what he wanted and he is where he wants to be. Same for LB.

Get back on the bandwagon my friend.

Name me 1 other team that performs better on the road and better in crunch time? We have a great team here that has peaked at just the right time.

Pistons in 5.

If it makes you feel more like a true Pistons fan to basically invent character flaws in an ex-player, I hope it's working.

That is completely unfounded.

I don't know about completely....

6 games against the Heat- 4 Blocked shots total

But not for lack of trying right?

Wrong.

Averaged less than 3 fouls per as well.


In fact, if you take away the one game in which Ben gave the slightest impression of his standard effort (IMO):

Ben averages .2 blocks per game over a 5 game stretch.

This is key for me considering that the Heat were entering the paint with reckless abandon and scoring at will.

However, I will concede that this is subjective. It is just the foundation of my feelings about Bens effort combined with the body language I saw from him out on the floor last year.

I don't know about completely....

6 games against the Heat- 4 Blocked shots total

But not for lack of trying right?

Wrong.

Averaged less than 3 fouls per as well.


In fact, if you take away the one game in which Ben gave the slightest impression of his standard effort (IMO):

Ben averages .2 blocks per game over a 5 game stretch.

This is key for me considering that the Heat were entering the paint with reckless abandon and scoring at will.

However, I will concede that this is subjective. It is just the foundation of my feelings about Bens effort combined with the body language I saw from him out on the floor last year.

Again, this goes back to Saunders' strategy of double and triple teaming Shaq. If Ben is one of 2 or 3 people on Shaq and he dumps the ball off to a cutter for a layup/dunk...unless the transporter has been invented, there's no way Ben can be in two places at once.

Additionally, Ben has always been able to block shots without fouling (hence 4 DPOY awards) so using his lack of fouls as proof of lack of effort doesn't really make sense to me.

At the end of the day, you're welcome to your opinion. Yet, Flip himself has said as recently as yesterday that it's his job to put the players in the best position to be successful. As far as I am concerned he did not do this when he had Ben Wallace on his roster and the 5 years of Ben Wallace basketball before his arrival are all the evidence I require.

C'mon Low. Leave the past behind. Ben got what he wanted and he is where he wants to be. Same for LB.

Get back on the bandwagon my friend.

Name me 1 other team that performs better on the road and better in crunch time? We have a great team here that has peaked at just the right time.

Pistons in 5.

The past is behind...however, in my book that doesn't mean that embracing a flawed approach is progress. There are ways this team could maintain a defensive focus without resigning Wallace and rehiring Brown. I said it earlier, we have to be the only team in NBA history to win a title and then promptly be jedi mind tricked into thinking that WE have to adjust to the rest of the league.

My grievances aren't with the past, they are with the present. If this team proves to me that they won't repeat all the bad habits I've seen from them all year (which is just what they did on their way to elimination last year), then I'll be the first one in here to tell you I was wrong. That doesn't make me a Bulls fan. It just makes me unwilling to eat the "cornbread" ©2006 WDFN.

As for your team that executes better in crunch time.....San Antonio Spurs. They may not win it. But, one thing they do is step on your neck and don't screw around with teams that aren't as good as them.

Can we play 5 on 4 when BBeen is in there?

Here is my argument for why Flip Saunders has not ignored defense.

2005-06 season
The Pistons allowed 103 points per 100 possessions.
The other team shot an eFG% of .478
We blocked 7.6% of shot attempts
The Pistons caused turnovers on 15% of opponent possessions

2006-07 season
The Pistons allowed 104 points per 100 possessions.
The other team shot an eFG% of .478
We blocked 7.4% of shot attempts
The Pistons caused turnovers on 16% of opponent possessions


Our only real problem was that our offense got worse this year, which was due to our lower eFG%. I did not break it out since Webber though, so these numbers include the Nazr games too. We also had some absences by Billups, Rip, Webber, and Sheed, which was not the case last year. Also, you could argue that we weren't pushing for wins as hard this year and tried to incorporate the bench more.

Well, strictly going by the numbers there is a visible trend away from the defensive strengths this team showed under LB. The true test of the defensive presense is NOT from Saunders 1st year until this year...it's BEFORE Saunders arrived to this year as follows:


Under Larry Brown (Opp PPG = 86.9)
2003-2004 Season
The Pistons allowed 84.3 PPG
The other team shot 41.3%
The other team gave up 14.7 TO/game
the other team avg'd 40.7 reb/game
Stls 8.0
Blks 7.0
Reb 42.8

2004-2005 Season
The Pistons allowed 89.5 PPG
The other team shot 43%
The other team gave up 13.1 TO/game
the other team avg'd 39.6 reb/game
Stls 7.0
Blks 6.1
Reb 43.4


Under Flip Saunders (Opp PPG = 91.0)
2005-2006 Season
The Pistons allowed 90.2 PPG
The other team shot 45.2%
The other team gave up 13.0 TO/game
the other team avg'd 40.9 reb/game
Stls 7.1
Blks 6.0
Reb 40.5

2006-2007
The Pistons allowed 91.8 PPG
The other team shot 44.5%
The other team gave up 13.9 TO/game
the other team avg'd 41.2 reb/game
Stls 7.1
Blks 5.8
Reb 40.5



While Opp turnovers were highlighted during LB's first season, there is essentially an increase of 4 ppg by our opponents and also a slight increase in our opponent's FG% (2-3%) which came from teams getting easier shots in the lane more often. Our steals, blocks, and rebounds are also showing a trend of decline after Saunders arrival which tells me that the more he gets "comfortable" with implementing his system and running it his way, we will continue to get worse defensively over the life of his tenure.

Well, strictly going by the numbers there is a visible trend away from the defensive strengths this team showed under LB. The true test of the defensive presense is NOT from Saunders 1st year until this year...it's BEFORE Saunders arrived to this year as follows:


Under Larry Brown (Opp PPG = 86.9)
2003-2004 Season
The Pistons allowed 84.3 PPG
The other team shot 41.3%
The other team gave up 14.7 TO/game
the other team avg'd 40.7 reb/game
Stls 8.0
Blks 7.0
Reb 42.8

2004-2005 Season
The Pistons allowed 89.5 PPG
The other team shot 43%
The other team gave up 13.1 TO/game
the other team avg'd 39.6 reb/game
Stls 7.0
Blks 6.1
Reb 43.4


Under Flip Saunders (Opp PPG = 91.0)
2005-2006 Season
The Pistons allowed 90.2 PPG
The other team shot 45.2%
The other team gave up 13.0 TO/game
the other team avg'd 40.9 reb/game
Stls 7.1
Blks 6.0
Reb 40.5

2006-2007
The Pistons allowed 91.8 PPG
The other team shot 44.5%
The other team gave up 13.9 TO/game
the other team avg'd 41.2 reb/game
Stls 7.1
Blks 5.8
Reb 40.5



While Opp turnovers were highlighted during LB's first season, there is essentially an increase of 4 ppg by our opponents and also a slight increase in our opponent's FG% (2-3%) which came from teams getting easier shots in the lane more often. Our steals, blocks, and rebounds are also showing a trend of decline after Saunders arrival which tells me that the more he gets "comfortable" with implementing his system and running it his way, we will continue to get worse defensively over the life of his tenure.

I personally think those numbers are not going to be cut and dry when you consider the extra years of age our guys have put behind them and perhaps more importantly the legislated change in the way the game was called for the championship winning Pistons team versus the teams of today.

Some of the best man defenders before the rules change aren't quite as prolific as they used to be, and that hurt the way LB had us playing ball.

Were the Pistons a better defensive team then? Of course; nevertheless, 4 years is and awfully long time for guys knocking down 30.

I'd like to see the statistical difference between LB and Flip when it comes to offense.

:


Under Larry Brown (Opp PPG = 86.9)
2003-2004 Season
The Pistons allowed 84.3 PPG
The other team shot 41.3%
The other team gave up 14.7 TO/game
the other team avg'd 40.7 reb/game
Stls 8.0
Blks 7.0
Reb 42.8

2004-2005 Season
The Pistons allowed 89.5 PPG
The other team shot 43%
The other team gave up 13.1 TO/game
the other team avg'd 39.6 reb/game
Stls 7.0
Blks 6.1
Reb 43.4


Under Flip Saunders (Opp PPG = 91.0)
2005-2006 Season
The Pistons allowed 90.2 PPG
The other team shot 45.2%
The other team gave up 13.0 TO/game
the other team avg'd 40.9 reb/game
Stls 7.1
Blks 6.0
Reb 40.5

2006-2007
The Pistons allowed 91.8 PPG
The other team shot 44.5%
The other team gave up 13.9 TO/game
the other team avg'd 41.2 reb/game
Stls 7.1
Blks 5.8
Reb 40.5





Do you by any chance have league wide stats as a comparator to indicate the general trend or comparison to another good club the Spurs?

Do you by any chance have league wide stats as a comparator to indicate the general trend or comparison to another good club the Spurs?

I could put that together for you, but it was already mid-night when I jumped into this one. I'll see what I can do after work today.

I personally think those numbers are not going to be cut and dry when you consider the extra years of age our guys have put behind them and perhaps more importantly the legislated change in the way the game was called for the championship winning Pistons team versus the teams of today.

Some of the best man defenders before the rules change aren't quite as prolific as they used to be, and that hurt the way LB had us playing ball.

Were the Pistons a better defensive team then? Of course; nevertheless, 4 years is and awfully long time for guys knocking down 30.

Maybe, but there is no argument that Saunders altered this teams approach to the game. We can bend the numbers all year long, but what really makes the difference is how you approach the game and your overall strategy. Regardless of age, if you have the personnel to play a certain style and then you abandon that style halfway through the tenure of that core group, you are less likely to experience the same level of success no matter how well you execute.

Here is some results from my data mining:

All of these stats are per 100 possessions, so that we can compare the Pistons to the Spurs and also to prior seasons.

Pistons
Year/ Off / Def/ Diff/ Coach
06-07/ 109/ 104/ +5/ Flip
05-06/ 111/ 103/ +8/ Flip
04-05/ 105/ 101/ +4/ LB
03-04/ 103/ 96/ +7/ LB
02-03/ 107/ 103/ +4/ Cola

Spurs
Year/ Off / Def/ Diff/ Coach
06-07/ 110/ 101/ +9/ Pop
05-06/ 108/ 100/ +8/ Pop
04-05/ 108/ 99/ +9/ Pop
03-04/ 104/ 96/ +8/ Pop
02-03/ 107/ 101/ +6/ Pop

So, what is the conclusion? I don't think Popovich has abandoned his defensive focus, and yet the Spurs are allowing 5 more points per 100 possessions than they were in 03-04. They are also scoring 6 more points themselves.

From LB's first year to his second, we saw a 5 point slide in our own defense, even though he was still focusing on it. There was a little more slide with Flip, but it is similar to the continued slide of the Spurs defense. So, maybe Flip is holding our D constant and the rules are to blame. It's like adjusting for inflation.

But, our offense has exploded with our best years in the last 5. Whatever he is doing, it is resulting is a bigger point spread, which should be the goal.

Maybe, but there is no argument that Saunders altered this teams approach to the game. We can bend the numbers all year long, but what really makes the difference is how you approach the game and your overall strategy. Regardless of age, if you have the personnel to play a certain style and then you abandon that style halfway through the tenure of that core group, you are less likely to experience the same level of success no matter how well you execute.

How much of that is due to people's natural resistance to change (on both sides)?

Unfortunately, teams were forced to abandon LB's style. I just about spit up my Cheerios hearing about how Popovich has adopted a Zone strategy in anticipation of playing a team like Phoenix in the playoffs. It's not full blown Saunders type stuff I'm sure, but even he has finally acknowledged that the philosophy has some merit to it.

I'm not sure how realistic it would have been to expect Flip to not have different views. Flip and LB probably make a grilled cheese sandwich differently as well. In the end you still have two grilled cheese sandwiches.

The funny part is that the Pistons team of two years ago would most likely prefer whichever sandwich they thought was Larry Brown's to Flip's, even if the same ingredients were used.

Aren't fans kind of like that as well?

I miss LB. I miss Ben. But if this years Pistons can learn from last years mistakes and win the title...I'll miss them less.

I really missed reading some of you guy's stuff. Your different perspectives and points of view are very refreshing. :)

I miss LB. I miss Ben. But if this years Pistons can learn from last years mistakes and win the title...I'll miss them less. :)


This is what a good team does for its fans...........................

I hope the Bulls series gives Pistons fans some closure. It's not healthy to root for, and against your team. That last sentence was not directed specifically at The Low.

I hope the Bulls series gives Pistons fans some closure. It's not healthy to root for, and against your team. That last sentence was not directed specifically at The Low.

Agreed, lets support our players please all.

That last sentence was not directed specifically at The Low. Of course not.

I just realized that you could not see me winking as I typed that last post. :)

I'm rooting for Viktor Khryapa to tear this mother up. If that means that Detroit loses, then so be it. Krapa, Krapa, Krapa.

Some of our biggest days in site traffic were when Ben left. I thought the season here started off very quietly considering the season the team had last year.

I will own up to the fact that I had mixed feelings until training camp started.

At the end of the day, I'm a Piston fan, whether that means I am cheering for Don Reid, John Crotty or Kelly Tripucka. I will always be a Pistons fan first.

With momentary lapses in conviction.

oh, I have NO problem supporting the players

I do appreciate what Ben did for us. I however lost a lot of respect for him on how he handled himself with Flip and how he let their differences effect the rest of the team. Come playoff time you have to put that stuff behind you and concentrate on winning - not how many offensive touches you think you deserve or when and how you think you should be playing and whatnot. Suck it up for the team.

Then to go to the Bulls of all places. And Skiles has been doing many of the same things Flip did but now its fine, that really cheeses me off man....

If for some chance the Bulls actually win then its going to be like 1991 all over again. I hope that does not happen. A lot is going to be ridding on this series for the Pistons.

BTW - there is not a whole lot of difference between someone hoping Ben sticks it to the Man versus the Darko fans who wanted a 1st round upset.

...And Skiles has been doing many of the same things Flip did but now its fine, that really cheeses me off man....

I dont' care how many times you say it man, Skiles is NOT doing the exact same things that Saunders did. I've watched a ton of bulls games this year (more than any other year I could stand) and I never saw a game plan or substitution pattern that remotely resembled Flip Saunders'. Just having substituted for Ben at some point in game is not the same as Saunders effectively removing a "non-scorer" from his gameplan.

Gotta go with Max on this one... Piston faithful for life irregardless of who does what... and certainly not rooting for any Bulls players.
That said I don't blame Ben for bettering his family and personal situation.

I dont' care how many times you say it man, Skiles is NOT doing the exact same things that Saunders did. I've watched a ton of bulls games this year (more than any other year I could stand) and I never saw a game plan or substitution pattern that remotely resembled Flip Saunders'. Just having substituted for Ben at some point in game is not the same as Saunders effectively removing a "non-scorer" from his gameplan.

Ben gave Flip absolutly zero slack last season. Completly unmovable to even the slightest changes.

I can't believe during the Cola year we gave up 103 avg. considering his stall ball.

I can't believe during the Cola year we gave up 103 avg. considering his stall ball.

We gave up much less than that, but it was 103 per 100 possessions. So, the pace we played was taken out of the equation.

But even with that, I thought it was interesting that our D really didn't go to that next level until Sheed came along.

Ben gave Flip absolutly zero slack last season. Completly unmovable to even the slightest changes.

1) Ben Wallace and I have at least one thing in common.

2) After two straight trips to the NBA Finals, would YOU want things to change?

1) Ben Wallace and I have at least one thing in common.

2) After two straight trips to the NBA Finals, would YOU want things to change?


Very good point.

1) Ben Wallace and I have at least one thing in common.

2) After two straight trips to the NBA Finals, would YOU want things to change?
I don't think Dumars necessarily wanted things to change. Matter of how much butt kissing he was willing to do to keep Brown happy.

Well, things did change and it was not up to Ben to decide how the team should play

...Well, things did change and it was not up to Ben to decide how the team should play

...well, they had a fork in the road and they clearly made a decision to abandon our successful strategy. Hence, Ben Wallace realized they were no longer going to maintain a place for him in their game plan and he leaves. Why should I be mad at Ben?

If the players on the Pistons don't blame Ben, then why should we? They all think he made the right decision for his family, etc.

I like that it seems to have worked out for all 3 parties so far... Det, Chi, and Ben.

I think Chicago knew that this deal was not going to be great for them in the long run, so they are really banking on cashing in this year or next year with a Ship.

It is our job to make sure that they wasted their money.

...well, they had a fork in the road and they clearly made a decision to abandon our successful strategy.


How do any of us know that that strategy would have continued to be successful? I grant you that it wasn't exactly hooked up to the respirator when it was terminated, but we still don't know that it would have gotten this team past Miami last year.

The funny thing is, even Coach Brown wanted to abandon pieces of the championship team mere weeks after the parade was held.

Do we know that Brown's proposals (which purportedly called for trades of multiple starters) would not have gotten us past San Antonio, or past Miami last year?

In the long run it's sort of a gamble either way. I can't fault Joe for being the proactive GM he is. On the other hand, your point of a few posts previous concerning Ben is a good one.

I'm not angry with him, I only wish he would have realized that he, Joe, and Flip were all fighting for a common goal and been more accepting of the change that two of those three felt needed to be made.

The Pistons would have gladly stuck with the successful strategy of having Ben Wallace on the team if we could have continued to pay him the same salary.

However, paying the same player three times as much $ is not sticking with the status quo.

The Pistons would have gladly stuck with the successful strategy of having Ben Wallace on the team if we could have continued to pay him the same salary.

However, paying the same player three times as much $ is not sticking with the status quo.


Oh you can bet Chauncey would have demanded more than he will probably sign for if he were comparing himself to Ben.

All I know is I'm a proponent of sticking with what works, until it's been proven not to work. Changing for the sake of not knowing if you'll continue to be successful seems pointless and unnecessary to me.

--

As far as keeping Wallace around, they could have done that by not so blatantly informing Wallace that they were jumping on the all-offense bandwagon (i.e. freezing him out of the offensive game plan and not focusing on D), coupled with offering Ben a straight 12 or 13 Mil deal. They were already prepared to pay 12 they should have compromised and opened up to 13. They also could have avoided the last straw (at least for Wallace) of coming to the table with that crap nickel and dime strategy of starting at 11.6 hoping to negotiate up to only 12. If they were prepared to give 12, they should have started with that. Wallace deserved at least that sort of consideration given his accomplishments. He's been very straight forward with them and this sort of negotiating tactic is in bad faith.

Negotiating always involves bidding less than you are ultimately willing to pay.

The fact that Ben didn't try to get us to counter means that he was fed up. Maybe his wife was giving him pressure. Maybe she wanted to move to Chicago. Who knows?

If she calls the shots on the fro, then maybe she calls the shots on the dough.

--

(i.e. freezing him out of the offensive game plan and not focusing on D),

-Ben averaged less points per game this year than every year previous until the first year with Cola. ( You know, the guy Ben disliked so much for "freezing him out of the offense"- only later claiming that he "never had a problem with him" when he wanted to make it clear that Flip was the real bad guy all along)


- Not focusing on D is not a factual statement. Prior to the Flip/Ben public rift, many of the players had stated to the media that they spent more time on defense in practice than any of the years with coach Brown.

To make that statement true you would have to amend it to say that Flip didn't focus on defense the way Ben Wallace wanted him to.

I have to side with Max on that one. If Ben wants to make those kind of calls he needs to take a coaching job somewhere. It's completely unfair to expect the coach to cater to whims like that and in the end still be the fall guy when the team doesn't win it all.

Want to blame Flip? Fine. But don't expect him succeed or fail on someone elses terms. I think the coach deserves to make the bed he sleeps in, don't you?

-Ben averaged less points per game this year than every year previous until the first year with Cola. ( You know, the guy Ben disliked so much for "freezing him out of the offense"- only later claiming that he "never had a problem with him" when he wanted to make it clear that Flip was the real bad guy all along)

The very fact that Ben avg'd more points per game and our team enjoyed greater overall success tells me all I need to know about whether or not it's a good idea to involve Ben Wallace in your offensive sets (and I'm not going to start this whole argument from square 1 about it not having to translate in number of shots...If I have to do that again, then I have to admit that A) no can grasp the concept or B) no one wants to admit that it's possible. Either way, I'm spinning my wheels.

Whether or not Skiles is able to get more point production out of Wallace over the length of a season is of no concequence to me because Skiles does not also have Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Prince, Dice, Williamson, Okur, Mike James, Lindsey Hunter, or Arroyo on his roster. We did.



- Not focusing on D is not a factual statement. Prior to the Flip/Ben public rift, many of the players had stated to the media that they spent more time on defense in practice than any of the years with coach Brown.

I only have one thing to say. Saunders himself said he was unconcerned with the defense of this team the day he was hired. By his own admission, he was going to focus on offense. Now if the same people here that don't believe anything Ben Wallace has to say about the situation believe everything Flip has to say, then either our players were lying to the media to paint a rosy picture or Flip was lying and he actually did focus on D....which is it?


To make that statement true you would have to amend it to say that Flip didn't focus on defense the way Ben Wallace wanted him to.

I have to side with Max on that one. If Ben wants to make those kind of calls he needs to take a coaching job somewhere. It's completely unfair to expect the coach to cater to whims like that and in the end still be the fall guy when the team doesn't win it all.

Want to blame Flip? Fine. But don't expect him succeed or fail on someone elses terms. I think the coach deserves to make the bed he sleeps in, don't you?

It's less about how Ben wanted him to do it and more about how this team made it to two straight NBA Finals appearances. Besides, if a guy says he wants to come in and "build" on the success of the existing circumstances (again by his own admission) then why the hell would he proceed to remove the foundation of the very success he's claiming he wants to build on? Whether or not I want him to, he is definitely making his own bed.

Negotiating always involves bidding less than you are ultimately willing to pay. ...

True, but part of being a good negotiator is the ability to recognize when traditional negotiating tactics may not be the correct course of action....unless, of course, you are hoping to get the expected result of using said tactics for the situation in question.

Here is an interesting thought.

Who was more responsible for two straight Finals? Larry or Ben?

And if it was both, could we argue that without one of them, our chances diminshed regardless of who was still here?

Whether or not Skiles is able to get more point production out of Wallace over the length of a season is of no concequence to me because Skiles does not also have Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Prince, Dice, Williamson, Okur, Mike James, Lindsey Hunter, or Arroyo on his roster. We did.




Don't you mean Brown did?

Flip didn't have that roster. Doesn't that allow him the same excuse you are granting Skiles?

...And if it was both, could we argue that without one of them, our chances diminshed regardless of who was still here?

Yes, which IMO it became that much more important to maintain at least one of those factors than to chase both of them out the door.

Don't you mean Brown did?

Flip didn't have that roster. Doesn't that allow him the same excuse you are granting Skiles?


No,

Of our roster Flip still had ALL of the major pieces of the puzzle:

Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Prince, Dice, Williamson, Okur, Mike James, Lindsey Hunter, or Arroyo

I only have one thing to say. Saunders himself said he was unconcerned with the defense of this team the day he was hired. By his own admission, he was going to focus on offense.

You are using that out of context.

The question of "Concern" for Saunders pertained to what he could bring to the table to improve upon the current Piston team. His being unconcerned with the defense was specifically subtexted with the reason being that the defensive principles of the team he was taking the reins of was just fine.

The offensive stagnation was what he was claiming to have a fix for, and that is why he was brought in.

In the proper context this in no way implies that Flip quit playing defense. If he didn't care about defense he wouldn't have so many zone ideas dancing around in his head.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. People have laughed at Don Nelson, and the minute a team like Phoenix wins the Championship he will be hailed as one heck of a visionary.

Greg Popovich is planning to utilize alot of Fliplike defensive schemes to get the Spurs past the Suns. If he pulls it off, what does that make Flip for being one of the first guys to see the way the league was heading?

No,

Of our roster Flip still had ALL of the major pieces of the puzzle:

When you highlighted Arroyo as a "major piece" and totally dissed on Okur, Williamson, and James was sort of when I knew that you were dead set on this regardless of anything else. :)

You are using that out of context.

The question of "Concern" for Saunders pertained to what he could bring to the table to improve upon the current Piston team. His being unconcerned with the defense was specifically subtexted with the reason being that the defensive principles of the team he was taking the reins of was just fine.

The offensive stagnation was what he was claiming to have a fix for, and that is why he was brought in.

In the proper context this in no way implies that Flip quit playing defense. If he didn't care about defense he wouldn't have so many zone ideas dancing around in his head.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. People have laughed at Don Nelson, and the minute a team like Phoenix wins the Championship he will be hailed as one heck of a visionary.

Greg Popovich is planning to utilize alot of Fliplike defensive schemes to get the Spurs past the Suns. If he pulls it off, what does that make Flip for being one of the first guys to see the way the league was heading?

The defensive principles were just fine because they were worked on and a focus of the coaching staff for years. Coming and just saying they're fine doesn't maintain the level of excellence this team had been crafted to exhibit. It allows for the very thing that causes most of our problems....simply allowing the players to decide for themselves what they will and will not work hard at. Saunders essentially gave our guys a free pass for the lax efforts and the overall overconfident behavior we are seeing out of this bunch present day. Nevermind the fact that we don't appear to have solved some sort of perplexing offensive quagmire since his hiring. As fans have been complaining about our offensive flow just as much over the past two seasons.

As far as Nellie, PHX, and the like go...The day they win a title will be the day the exception proves the rule. No revelations there for me, simply a run and gun team's hit on the roulette wheel. Kinda like a lightning strike...s'gotta happen sometime. Now when run and gun style teams are winning the title 3 or 4 out of every 5 years...then, I'll believe there's a new era at hand.

Lastly, a goal of maintaining existing defensive strength by employing a stationary, reactionary form of defense that allows no one to be held responsible for their assignments, and makes it easy for the offense to dictate what you are going to do does not give me reason to breathe a sigh of relief. If Pop DOES put the zone to use, it's the equivalent of using a gimmick to cancel out a gimmick. It's not a sound strategy that he plans to use on a full-time basis and therefore is not the trend to a new style that people are making it out to be.

When you highlighted Arroyo as a "major piece" and totally dissed on Okur, Williamson, and James was sort of when I knew that you were dead set on this regardless of anything else. :)

lol....hardly, as we don't have to go very far to find millions of complaints of LB's shortening of this group's minutes during the postseason.

DETROIT BAKSETBALL!

Sorry, I needed to get that out.

I just keep thinking what a great bench we had in the title year.

Okur, Corliss, and Mike James.


Maybe the loss of those guys has more to do with a drop off than any coaching philosophy.

-Ben averaged less points per game this year than every year previous until the first year with Cola.
He also averaged a career high in assists. He's frequently used as a release to reset their halfcourt offense after their opponents successfully trap the ballhandler, which lets him operate out of the high post a lot more than he did in Detroit even under Larry Brown. Even though his shot attempts are way down, Ben might be more involved in the offense in Chicago than he ever was in Detroit, for a certain definition of "involved".

I just keep thinking what a great bench we had in the title year.

Okur, Corliss, and Mike James.
The funny thing is that it's looking like Antonio McDyess and Carlos Delfino will absolutely dwarf the minutes (and likely the impact) any of those players had in the 2004 playoffs.

Okur and Corliss were foul-magnets and Mike James didn't do a damn thing in the playoffs. I guess depth is the price that we're now paying for fielding an old, unenergetic team that's been fully scouted.

The funny thing is that it's looking like Antonio McDyess and Carlos Delfino will absolutely dwarf the minutes (and likely the impact) any of those players had in the 2004 playoffs.


Here is what they did (Okur + James + Corliss) in the '04 playoffs:

Min/game = 35.3
Points = 12.0
Rebs = 6.2
Ast = 2.2
Stl = 0.7
Blk = 0.5

So, yeah, they were doing a good job, but didn't get much of a chance to contribute.

Here is how (McDyess + Flip Murray + Delfino) have done in '07 playoffs so far:

Min/game = 57.9
Points = 12.0
Reb = 11.6
Ast = 2.8
Stl = 3.05
Blck = 1.00

They are getting more minutes, scoring at a lower rate, but rebounding better and stealing the ball more.

Let me rehash a couple of things then I will stop.

06 - A true team player will give it 110% in the post-season and wait until the off-season to express his displeasure with the coach. When a player challenges the coach/GM publicly and lets it effect his game he will lose everytime. There is not a team out there that will do otherwise.

05/LB. I know we got to the Finals but for me 05 was not a great season. The whole year was a struggle riddled with sideline LB drama that did effect the team. If you have followed LB then you know that he starts pulling stuff like that when he is ready to move on. This is where that mailing it in culture started - under LB. Flip just has not been able to shake it.
Yea we got to the Finals but had a hard time against Indy and got very lucky when Wade went down in game #5. Wade sat out game #6 and was around 50% for game 7. We just saw how a injured Wade Heat plays so there you go. I also recall something wrong with Shaq back in 05 as well. A fully healthy Miami team would have put us away in 5 or 6 games. Sorry - but they would have.

Onto the future. Whats the Low going to do if we actually win the title this year? We could. I am not feeling sorry for Ben or feel that he is owed any kind of revenge. He made his choices and propbably is not even thinking about getting back at Flip for anything. He seems happy where he is and the Pistons have learned to survive without him. So thats about it. Like it or not its the way things have happened.

Be thankfull for how long the Pistons have been able to stay in contention. Its 2-3 years and done for most clubs. Dumars must know what he is doing. Has some young players and a couple of picks lined up already so its not something thats going to end anytime soon.

Detroit Basketball...or bassetball...I gotta bassetball jones...Oh baby whoowhoo weee.

http://www.theplatelady.com/plates6/basset-ball.jpg

...Whats the Low going to do if we actually win the title this year? ...

I already addressed this issue...

If this team proves to me that they won't repeat all the bad habits I've seen from them all year (which is just what they did on their way to elimination last year), then I'll be the first one in here to tell you I was wrong.

and

I don't like the way he coaches and if he proves me wrong by winning it all, I'll be the first to admit it.

Low - I have warmed up to Flip, maybe you will as well. He has the team playing so well right now. The offensive flow is beautifull at times. Perhaps he does not coach D the way you want but his system does force a lot of TO's and he has the bigs able to collapse on anyone in the paint. Developed some depth so there are a lot of fouls to use up if need be.

I feel as though the Pistons are better prepared for the playoffs than the past 2 seasons. We will see.

Detroit Basketball...or bassetball...I gotta bassetball jones...Oh baby whoowhoo weee.

I need help, ladies and gentlemens
I need someone to stand beside me
I need, I need someone to set a pick for me at the free-throw line of life
Someone I can pass to
Someone to hit the open man on the give-and-go
And not end up in the popcorn machine
So cheerleaders, help me out