Barry Bonds is closing in on Hank Aaron fast. To me, Hammerin' Hank will ALWAYS be the home-run king. How do you feel?

Barry has not been a likeable human being as long as I can remember. He should get to within one of the record, and then RETIRE from the game. I've always felt bad for Aaron cause he didn't win a World Series. When I look at his stats, I'm reminded of Gordie Howe. He was so consistent as a player. Anybody who wishes to celebrate has that choice. However, I'll be celebrating something else that day.

I mistyped the poll question: It should say "Barry Bonds," not "Hank Aaron." Oops! :MusicBigGrin:

I've always felt bad for Aaron cause he didn't win a World Series.

Yes he did. The Braves won it all in '57, with Aaron winning the NL MVP and hitting the pennant-clinching home run late in the regular season.

Poll fixed.

I don't like Bonds and I'd rather not see him break the record, but I voted "Who Cares" because really I don't. If he breaks it, so be it. It won't change the way I feel about him.

I don't care about baseball, but one of my obligations as a card-carrying member of the anti-chemical-enhancement-witchhunt movement is to support Bonds in this case.

Poll fixed.

Thanks, roscoe. You're always on the case.

You know, enhanced or not (which is yet to be proven), you still have to be able to hit and play. I could use every known steroid and I still wouldn't make even the minor league roster. While the total may be somewhat stretched, it is still a great achievement for anyone.

I do apologize for my mistake about wether Aaron won a world Series. All these years, I was under the impression that he had been passed by.
:frusty: :frusty: :frusty:

Truth is...........I've always wanted to use this smilie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:pound:

What I've been wondering is why the heck they can't come up with a definitive answer whether he did the streroids... it's like they're affraid to find the answer....
It's pretty simple... if he's cleared (after it became illegal) then sure I'd like to see him break the record... if not then it's tainted.
It is a little hard rooting for Bonds when Hank Aaron was such a fine gentleman.

Why am I picturing Bonds stepping up to the plate only needing one homer and dropping the bat and saying that's it I'm done... his way of getting the last laugh.

Why am I picturing Bonds stepping up to the plate only needing one homer and dropping the bat and saying that's it I'm done... his way of getting the last laugh.

We know he's not going to do that. His ego will not let him.

Give him his props. Plenty of men, women, children, athletes and scholars have taken some type of performance enhancing drug whether it be for the body or the mind or healing but no one is under as much scrutiny as Bonds.

Because he ignored a few hundred sports reporters for the past 20 years in a "jerk" like manner, those same individuals have been supporting this witch hunt against him for the past 5 years as he inches closer to the goal. Those same sports writers and any regular hater would love to have their hands on 756 after it clears the fence. Records are made to be broken and it shouldn't matter who does it.

As hammerin Hank apporached the Babe's record in 1973 and 74 he got racist hate mail for the year and a half leading up to the moment. With all the hatin going on with Bonds, Aaron should at least aknowledge the pain BB is going through by reaching out to him instead of putting out comments that he doesn't care or doesn't want to be in the vicinity when record is broken. For Selig to sit on the fence shows that he is just like the other commissioners who are swayed by public opinion and image.

We don't know what kind of drugs baseball, football, hockey or basketball players took in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's before the sophistcasted testing discovered them in the blood and urine and what the affect was on their bodies strength, endurance or mind. I don't mind Barry breaking the record and wouldn't mind if he retired at 754 and left ESPN begging for some more at bats...lets just get over it and move on. I know he will be selfish about it as some one mentioned, but so was Emmit Smith (IMO) when it came to sqeaking by Walter Payton for the rushing yards title. He could have retired before that and let Sweetness hold on to that title in memory, like Barry Sanders did............

I don't know that it's exactly been a "witch hunt" against Bonds. You'd have to pretty naive to think he wasn't deliberately roiding it up for several years. Of course, you'd have to be equally naive to think that he's been the ONLY one boosting his numbers with steroids, not to mention the extremely high likelihood of having hit plenty of these dingers against pitchers who were juiced up themselves.

And as much of the "jerk" factor has hurt Bonds, I don't think it's the determining factor in why so many people look at his HR records as being tainted. Mark McGwire was practically canonized by fans and the media for breaking Maris' record in '98, but he fell so far and so fast after dodging questions before Congress that none of the "love" he'd been getting before then was able to limit the damage at all. The miniscule support he got on the Hall of Fame ballot is only the most definitive evidence of that. HOF-wise, nobody can doubt that Bonds was 100% Hall-worthy even before he apparently started juicing in crazy quantities to match McGwire after '98, so I think it would be difficult to deny Bonds a spot in the hall unless you're flat-out not going to vote for ANYONE from this era.

Where is the evidence that Barry Bonds used roids after they were banned by MLB? Whether you like him or not should not be an issue.

I really don't care if Bonds breaks the record because to be honest I feel most of these records are a joke to start with. Players today play more games and have longer careers. Unless you break the record in fewer games than the other player that holds the record. In my opinion the record has not been broken.

I can't simply overlook someone that used enhancements to get an unfair advantage over "clean" players... I just wish they would let the truth be known.
McGuire should not have escaped the scrutiny either.

Well, McGwire didn't escape it. He was fortunate enough to be retired by the time the you-know-what hit the fan, but as I mentioned, that didn't do him much good. It sure didn't help him with the HOF voters.

It's true that there's no evidence of Bonds juicing since MLB started banning things, but that was only a couple of years ago. There are tons of indications that he did all kinds of stuff in the several years prior to that, although of course he was far from the only one doing it.

The one argument that I think Bonds supporters have in their favor is that to whatever extent he's the only one being held accountable for it, that's not fair. Right when the Game of Shadows book was published, some prominent sportswriters bloviated quite loudly about how MLB would have to suspend him, but that clearly would have been a ridiculous double standard to hold him to.

I don't care when Bonds breaks the record. There will always be an asterisk in my mind. The truth of the controversy may never be known...but the drastic change in his physique over the years can not solely be attributed to 'clean' living & a dedicated work regiment IMO.

Hank was a class guy in his playing time and still represents all the best of the sport.

Why am I picturing Bonds stepping up to the plate only needing one homer and dropping the bat and saying that's it I'm done... his way of getting the last laugh.

That would be cool. Sounds like something Barry would do....Barry Sanders that is.

That would be cool. Sounds like something Barry would do....Barry Sanders that is.How is Barry Bonds like Barry Sanders?


:wedgie:

How is Barry Bonds like Barry Sanders?


:wedgie:

I wasn't comparing the two guys. I don't see a lot of similarities. If you look at what I wrote, I was talking about Mercury's reference to retiring right before you break a historic record. That is exactly what Barry Sanders did, retiring right before he broke Walter Peyton's all-time career rushing record. He also once took himself out of the last game of a season right before he became the season's rushing leader.

I wasn't comparing the two guys. I don't see a lot of similarities. If you look at what I wrote, I was talking about Mercury's reference to retiring right before you break a historic record. That is exactly what Barry Sanders did, retiring right before he broke Walter Peyton's all-time career rushing record. He also once took himself out of the last game of a season right before he became the season's rushing leader.

Don't worry. Some of us got it. :MusicBigGrin:

I still don't get it.

Barry Sanders gets it...........So does Henry Aaron............

I still don't get it.

What else is new?

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Here we go:
ESPN.com - MLB - Poll: Whites, blacks view Bonds chase differently (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2861930)

Here we go:
ESPN.com - MLB - Poll: Whites, blacks view Bonds chase differently (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2861930)


Leave it to ESPN to sanction and conduct this poll. I know they are the so called experts in sports, but I think this poll generated in their own offices in Bristol as some employees and contibutors (Mike Lupica, John Feinsten, the white haired Boston guy amoing others who probably hate the fact that their employer has a daily "Chasing Aaron" segment on the bottom of the page sports ticker and lead off every sports center with a Bonds HR if he hits one that day or night.

As far of the races preference, no comment on that, but what do you expect?? Similar racial percentages surfaced originally when asked the question if OJ did it?

Leave it to ESPN to sanction and conduct this poll. I know they are the so called experts in sports, but I think this poll generated in their own offices in Bristol as some employees and contibutors (Mike Lupica, John Feinsten, the white haired Boston guy amoing others who probably hate the fact that their employer has a daily "Chasing Aaron" segment on the bottom of the page sports ticker and lead off every sports center with a Bonds HR if he hits one that day or night.

As far of the races preference, no comment on that, but what do you expect?? Similar racial percentages surfaced originally when asked the question if OJ did it?

ESPN has the $$$ so they are going to be on the top providing sports information to the world. Obviously they are going to pay $$$ to their employees to provide that information. So that information is going to be whatever creates more interest and therefore more $$$.

first off, disclaimer: not a huge baseball fan so i don't really know what i am talking about. this is just an outsider's opinion.

my problem with the issue, i think, is that bonds is still playing. i mean, if he's playing then in my view he's as eligible as anyone else to break records and receive whatever accolades correspond to doing so. that said, he probably shouldn't be playing, but then that's mlb's problem in my view and, until they fix it by implementing some sort of more consistent policy/testing procedure, etc., then they are just sort of indignantly blowing smoke about the purity of a game that, as far as i can tell hasn't been pure for some time (if it ever was). and in that case, i wanna know why everybody's got their whitey tighties in a bundle over him breaking this record. :gun1:

I don't understand how their sample size is big enough to provide a racial breakout, yet the sub-sample of about 25% is not big enough for questions 2 and 3. But then it is big enough for the rest of the questions.

I don't see anything special about questions 2 or 3 that would have made this the case.

It seems to me like Hark Aaron has cast his vote by saying he doesn't care about it and won't attend to see it happen. This is after he criticized the baseball comissioner for not being there when he broke the Babe's record.

The press really loves its audience. You know they're gonna have cameras in two sports bars when Bonds breaks the record. One Sports Bar will be mostly white, while the other is mostly black. They did this kind of thing when OJ was found innocent..............Anything to sell advertizing dollars......................

The record will be tainted and that is unfortunate. But baseball can only blame themselves. They looked the other way for 30 years. Now they reap their reward. In some ways, I guess alot of records is tainted in the fact that you are comparing apples to oranges. For example, for many years, the NBA did not have a three point line. That had to have an affect on the most points scored statistic. Etc. I don't buy the argument that you still have to hit the baseball. Although true, we are talking about being able to hit it another 15 to 20 feet, or whatever it is. It has to taint the total number of home runs allowed. Saying all that, I guess the record has to be acknowledged. A little different scenario but I would still vote for Rose to be in the Hall. He is the King of hitters. There is no proof that he threw any games as a manager. In fact. It's quite obvious that it goes totally against his nature to throw a game.

Might just be better to place players in different ERAs
Here's some of my suggestions.................

Dead Ball Era
Pre War Era
WWII Era
Post War Era
Expansion Era
Steroids Era
Pre Jackie Robinson Era
Post Jackie Robinson Era

I think it's fine. I hope he does it, and for two reasons:

A) The guy has never tested positive for steroid use and is really being grilled for not having a great history with the press. So, what if he's unlikeable? Michael Jordan was unlikeable and everyone kissed his arse for decades. I don't think you have to make friends with the press in order to be validated as an athlete.

and

B) Even if (unproven by tests) Bonds used some form of enhancement, the MLB has built itself on a litany of players "cheating" to get ahead. Remember the old saying, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."? With all the corked bats, pine tar, sandpaper and other crap this game has a history for. It's awfully hypocritical and disingenuous to now all of a sudden, invent this "integrity" of the sport to hold over Bonds all for what? He's an A-Hole? So was Ty Cobb...get over it.

I think it's fine. I hope he does it, and for two reasons:

A) The guy has never tested positive for steroid use and is really being grilled for not having a great history with the press. So, what if he's unlikeable? Michael Jordan was unlikeable and everyone kissed his arse for decades. I don't think you have to make friends with the press in order to be validated as an athlete.

Like I said earlier up-thread, I don't think this is about Bonds being "unlikeable." Mark McGwire was all but canonized by the media and the public for his '98 season, but when it became all too apparent that he was hiding something (during his testimony in the Congressional hearings), his credibility vanished. Pretty much everyone who looks at Bonds' records as being tainted feels the same way about McGwire, and the HOF voters absolutely lowered the boom on McGwire, to such an extent that it suddenly seems highly doubtful that he'll ever make it in.

On the other hand, the point about Bonds being singled out for "accountability" is largely valid, since nobody is dumb enough to believe that Bonds was the only one doing 'roids in all of baseball. And if one is claiming that such-and-such accomplishment by Bonds is tainted, it's entirely hypocritical not to hold other players from this era to a similar standard. It does present a problem, though, because Bonds really is the only one who's in Hank Aaron's company for the all-time HR record. I think that's a difficult dilemma to deal with.

I've been exposed to alot of this "scene" in my day, and the one fact that is prevalent no matter what the sport is this:

The guys that are using drugs are the ones that aren't very good at what they do, and look for other, illegal means to compete with the "big boys". Barry Bonds was a great player before anyone was assuming he was on drugs, and the minute he picks up a weight he's been tried and convicted without a shred of proof?

Low pretty much hit the nail on the head with his post. This is more about Bonds being a jerk than folks want to admit. I'm pretty sure if Tiger and LeBron weren't such likable guys they would be accused as well. Nobody gets into that kind of shape without drugs right?

Sure makes me feel better about myself to think that is true. :)

I think it's fine. I hope he does it, and for two reasons:

A) The guy has never tested positive for steroid use and is really being grilled for not having a great history with the press. So, what if he's unlikeable? Michael Jordan was unlikeable and everyone kissed his arse for decades. I don't think you have to make friends with the press in order to be validated as an athlete.

and

B) Even if (unproven by tests) Bonds used some form of enhancement, the MLB has built itself on a litany of players "cheating" to get ahead. Remember the old saying, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."? With all the corked bats, pine tar, sandpaper and other crap this game has a history for. It's awfully hypocritical and disingenuous to now all of a sudden, invent this "integrity" of the sport to hold over Bonds all for what? He's an A-Hole? So was Ty Cobb...get over it.



I like your post. What does Henry Aaron have against Barry Bonds anyways....to the point that he'll ignore the record being broken ???

Barry Bonds was a great player before anyone was assuming he was on drugs, and the minute he picks up a weight he's been tried and convicted without a shred of proof?

There are a few different things in play here. One has to get up pretty early in the morning to believe that Bonds didn't pump himself up with illegal stuff. As the book Game of Shadows clearly demonstrated, he was doing several steroids, and he even admitted to taking at least some of that stuff, but he denied (in grand jury testimony) that he knowingly took any of it. He said he assumed it was flak-seed oil, or whatever. Which is ridiculous.

On the other hand, it's equally ridiculous to assume that he was the only one doing all that stuff. The evidence for steroid use having been a widespread thing throughout the major leagues is overwhelming. And it also brings up issues of fairness in terms of punishment, whatever that amounts to. When Game of Shadows was published, more than a few sportswriters called for Bonds to be suspended, which was clearly absurd. Unless and until every single major leaguer who's been active in the past decade has the equivalent of a "Game of Shadows" written about them, it's unfair to inflict different treatment on Bonds than other players who, by virtue of being lower-profile names, don't become targets for investigative journalists.

Low pretty much hit the nail on the head with his post. This is more about Bonds being a jerk than folks want to admit. I'm pretty sure if Tiger and LeBron weren't such likable guys they would be accused as well. Nobody gets into that kind of shape without drugs right?

I've brought up the McGwire example a couple of times now. I'd like one of you "this is all about people not liking Bonds" guys to respond to that.

And if one is claiming that such-and-such accomplishment by Bonds is tainted, it's entirely hypocritical not to hold other players from this era to a similar standard.

I disagree with this because I totally agree with your next thought. Nobody else is even close right now. This isn't about him being black or anything. Look what they are doing to Rose and McGuire. This is totally about Bonds because he is close to obtaining one of the most prestigious records in baseball.

This is a good message for kids.

"Cheat, but don't do too good, or people will hate you. Just cheat a little, especially if everyone else is doing it."

This is a good message for kids.

"Cheat, but don't do too good, or people will hate you. Just cheat a little, especially if everyone else is doing it."

I agree. The next generation often pays the consequences for our stupidity.

I've brought up the McGwire example a couple of times now. I'd like one of you "this is all about people not liking Bonds" guys to respond to that.

McGuire had now illegal prohormones in his locker. Bonds didn't. In the sports world most reporters take speculation to the bank, proof for the eyes to see like the kind Mac threw out there is like finding a gold mine. Bonds hasn't been positively tested or actually quoted as having used drugs.

The book you seem to take as pure fact contains a lot of baseless unproven speculation. Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true.

There are a few different things in play here. One has to get up pretty early in the morning to believe that Bonds didn't pump himself up with illegal stuff.

I've got two books for you (or anyone else) to read and possibly implement before you jump to these kinds of conclusions:

1. Natural Hormonal Enhancement- Rob Faigin

2. The Anabolic Diet- Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale

Todays society seems more "magic pill" oriented than ever before, all the while overlooking the fact that drugs merely mimic or supplant the naturally occuring chemical reactions that are achieved when eating food.

Thats right, good old wholesome food. The kicker is that often the body can do it better than the pills do. Anyone willing to implement Di Pasquales bulking diet with a vigilant exercise regimen will have quite a different view of things when they start getting accused of being on drugs they have never even laid eyes on.

I like your post. What does Henry Aaron have against Barry Bonds anyways....to the point that he'll ignore the record being broken ???


Like I indicated in my earlier in post #13, if Aaron and Selig would just come out and say they will be there instead of ignoring the situation or sitting on the fence, national sentiment will probably more positive or a little more excited about covering the event than ESPN is.

Everyone's not going to celebrate the accomplishment, but if the current record holder is alive and able, he should at least be in attendance to aknowledge it and be there to congratuate Bonds. Willie Mays, who is probably more beloved than both Bonds or Aaron, will be on hand to praise his godson. The picture of the three of them standing there shaking hands or hugging with the retrieved ball will be a valuable photo itself.

Bud Selig will cause more controversy for not being in attendence than for being there to congratuate Bonds when they stop play. In other words get over the controversy now and just come out and say that this is how we will handle the event and this is who will be there ....case close.

McGuire had now illegal prohormones in his locker. Bonds didn't. In the sports world most reporters take speculation to the bank, proof for the eyes to see like the kind Mac threw out there is like finding a gold mine. Bonds hasn't been positively tested or actually quoted as having used drugs.

What McGwire had in his locker (andro) was not illegal under U.S. law at the time (it only became illegal in '04), and while it was banned by the NFL at that time (I mean 1998), baseball had no rules banning anything. So for McGwire to have taken that substance at that time didn't amount to much at all--he was, quite literally, not breaking any relevant rules by taking it. But when he broke down in his Congressional testimony, it was...well...pretty obvious that he wasn't just thinking about the andro he had been taking.

The book you seem to take as pure fact contains a lot of baseless unproven speculation. Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true.

The book was partly based on grand jury testimony (including Bonds' testimony) that was leaked by one of the BALCO chief's lawyers. Again, I'm obviously not saying that Bonds should be thrown in jail over it--that's not how the legal system works. And as I've said, those who called for him to be suspended because of what was written in the book were also wrong, because it would be unfair to do that to one guy while everyone else who didn't have books written about them gets away with it. But I continue to be amazed that people really believe that Bonds (plus a whole bunch of other guys) wasn't using illegal steroids.

Where it gets complicated is in deciding what to do about that, since baseball itself, by celebrating all the dingers without doing a damn thing about all the juicing that was going on, is far more responsible for failing to police itself than Bonds (or any other player) is for not having policed himself.

What McGwire had in his locker (andro) was not illegal under U.S. law at the time (it only became illegal in '04), and while it was banned by the NFL at that time (I mean 1998), baseball had no rules banning anything. So for McGwire to have taken that substance at that time didn't amount to much at all--he was, quite literally, not breaking any relevant rules by taking it. But when he broke down in his Congressional testimony, it was...well...pretty obvious that he wasn't just thinking about the andro he had been taking.

Firstly, I mentioned that the substance was now illegal, and the legality at the time doesn't mean anything in terms of efficacy. A steroid is a steroid, legal or not. People knew that then, thus the heat Mac took.
What people fail to realize is that there were countless other "legal" steroids then, and there are numerous legal steroids now.
Surely this knowledge would be enough to make anyone short of a lawyer and a chemist falter on the stand?



The book was partly based on grand jury testimony (including Bonds' testimony) that was leaked by one of the BALCO chief's lawyers.

And yet how convenient that the "leaked testimony" cannot be corroborated by the facts?
Once again, noone is drawing a line between what is illegal now and what was legal then. 15 year old kids were buying steroids from GNC back then, any athletes who were using them run the risk now of being labeled "dopers", regardless of whether or not the product was on the same shelf as coral calcium at Vitamin World, not to mention that these steroids were added into protein powders and energy drinks.

What I challenge you to do is find the book "anabolic diet", follow the bulking program, and then get back to me when "it is obvious" that you are taking drugs.

My contention is that noone not directly involved knows for sure whether Bonds used illegal steroids or not. The more you learn about nutrition and how to manipulate the factors essential for natural growth, the more the lines begin to blur between who is obviously a steroid user and who isn't.

Firstly, I mentioned that the substance was now illegal, and the legality at the time doesn't mean anything in terms of efficacy. A steroid is a steroid, legal or not. People knew that then, thus the heat Mac took.

But he didn't take much heat for it--not back then (in '98). His canonization continued almost uninterrupted. It was only after his Congressional testimony (following the Canseco book) that his credibility took a nosedive. I also think most people still don't hold McGwire "accountable" for taking andro back then, and I agree with that position--it wasn't illegal under the law, and baseball wasn't banning anything, so why should he police himself according to someone else's rules? Taking illegal steroids, on the other hand, is a different issue, whether baseball itself was testing for them or not. And McGwire's testimony made it pretty clear to most viewers that he wasn't just referring to the andro, which everyone had already known about for years.

Anyway, I brought up McGwire to rebut the "people are going after Bonds just because they've never liked him" argument. McGwire was practically a saint before the steroid issue really came to the forefront, and yet his reputation has now been destroyed by it. The fact that people liked (and even worshipped) him was of no use to him at all in softening the blow of the steroid issue.

On your other points, I can agree that what is and isn't illegal, or what does or doesn't get mixed together, is a complicated issue that always presents problems for the testing agencies. The "dopers" are usually a few steps ahead of the watchdogs, sometimes with stuff that's perfectly legal under the law.

A lot of the older players...Frank Robinson for example...might have been contenders for the home run record too if they would have kept themselves in better shape. Harmon Killebrew is another guy that could have done it.

I read a biography of Robinson and it's amazing that he was able to accomplish what he did with all the injuries he had to play through. Killebrew was my guy growing up as a kid in Minnesota.

With the drugs and training techniques available to these modern players I don't really think any broken records are valid or interesting. Hank Aaron will always be the home run king.

I remember the year Brady Anderson hit fifty home runs...guys like that never used to be home run kings.

Career Stats for Barry BONDS, Henry AARON, Willie MAYS.........

Aaron: Hr - 755 / RBI - 2297 / AVE - 305 / Hits - 3771

Mays: Hr - 660 / RBI - 1903 / AVE - 302 / Hits - 3283

Bonds: Hr - 745 / RBI - 1953 / AVE - 299 / Hits - 2841

I've always been amazed at the stats of Hank Aaron. He did so well for so long. He never made it big in the public eye. Not like Willie Mays or Babe Ruth did. I've always felt he was my favorite player of all time. For me, it's all about Bonds personna. That's why I don't like him. I would not have liked TY Cobb either. Heard too many first hand stories about him. Many here have presented good reasons why Barry Should be honored when he breaks the record. I'm only interested in who attends, and who does not...............

And McGwire's testimony made it pretty clear to most viewers that he wasn't just referring to the andro, which everyone had already known about for years.



See this is where the issue can become clouded. There were and are plenty of legal steroids that will cause you to test positive for the same metabolites that are present after the use of illegal counterparts.

Andro is just one of literally hundreds of possibilities, and I seriously doubt anyone would be better off once they started naming their favorites from the list, legal or not.

I was reading Todd Jones's column in The Sporting News this week and it seems he's indicating the magazine is going to cover the HR record by putting Aaron on the cover and running a full piece on him.............:stirthepot:

Personally, I'll be very happy when A-Rod breaks Bonds' HR record. Currently, A-Rod is only 31 and he's alread hit almost 500 HRs. If he averages a mear 30 HRs a year over the next 10 years, he'll easily hit 800, eclipsing both Bonds and Aaron.

Say what you want about A-Rod, he has never been implicated in any drug scandal. Hopefully, A-Rod breaking the record will put this whole "asterisk" controversy behind us forever.

The fans voted him to start in the All Star game, and I never go against the wishes of the fans when it comes to these type of honors. We'll just have to see how the voting goes for the HOF. Gotta feeling he'll get in. I know I won't be invited to the festivities.

The fans voted him to start in the All Star game, and I never go against the wishes of the fans when it comes to these type of honors. We'll just have to see how the voting goes for the HOF. Gotta feeling he'll get in. I know I won't be invited to the festivities.

Bonds will get in. The writers' thinking will be that he put up HOF numbers before he was allegedly on the juice. He racked up a few MVP awards before then, too.

Tonight is the Home Run Derby. Surprised to see Bonds won't participate. He'd be at home where HIS fans could cheer him on. Anything he did during those festivities would be received well. Especially since he's trying to break the HR record. Shame he can't do this event for those fans in SF who helped vote him into the All Star game. Makes his last interview where he talks about "defending my house" seem irrevelant.................

I'm sure Bonds is afraid of tweaking something in the derby that might jeopardize his eventual HR record...one more reason to dislike him...he doesn't even care about his hometown fans.

Hey...even Barry Bonds is an A-Rod fan.

BONDS & A-ROD POUR ON THE PRAISE | By KEVIN KERNAN | Sports News | Scores | Results (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07102007/sports/bonds__a_rod_pour_on_the_praise_sports_kevin_kerna n.htm)


“Like I told Alex, man, you’ll break it,” Bonds said when asked if - unlike Aaron for him - he would be there if and when someone breaks his record. “And when you do, you don’t have to worry about calling me. I’ll call you. If you want me there, I’ll be there. I’ll be there in a heartbeat.”


Bonds has been a great player throughout his career. It's too bad he got caught up in this steroid scandal. I'm sure he saw much lesser players like McGwire and Sosa hitting 70 HRs a year, and thought, "If those clowns can do it, why not me?"

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1184045845.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmlqWOhgEuvPgZ2RMqZAH5U5nYcB?slug=ti-bonds070907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Bonds to A-Rod: "Only use a small amount of 'flax seed' oil so that it's not detectable." A-Rod listens intently.


All other caption entries are welcome!

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1184045845.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmlqWOhgEuvPgZ2RMqZAH5U5nYcB?slug=ti-bonds070907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

A-Rod to Bonds- What was the worst side affect when you took steroids?
Bonds to A-Rod- My wife actually noticed it. He uses hand gesture
A-Rod: :eek:

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1184045845.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmlqWOhgEuvPgZ2RMqZAH5U5nYcB?slug=ti-bonds070907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

A-Rod to Bonds- What was the worst side affect when you took steroids?
Bonds to A-Rod- My wife actually noticed it. He uses hand gesture
A-Rod: :eek:

Outstanding, bezeach! :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1184045845.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmlqWOhgEuvPgZ2RMqZAH5U5nYcB?slug=ti-bonds070907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)




Remember A Rod..............Just a pinch between your cheek and your gums..............

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1184045845.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmlqWOhgEuvPgZ2RMqZAH5U5nYcB?slug=ti-bonds070907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)



Remember A-Rod...when you sign your new 5 year, $150 million contract extension...I recommend a diversified portfolio. You should have holdings in commercial real estate...tax free municiples...domestic growth stocks...precious metals...and emerging market funds. If you'd like, I can refer you to my investment advisors.

Barry Bonds got 756 tonight in his hometeam ballpark. He is the home run record holder.

ESPN - Time has come: Bonds cracks home run No. 756 - MLB (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2965584)

Oh well.

Oh well.

As if we care. He may have the most homeruns, but he ain't gonna be the homerun king.

Willie Mays was there in person. Hank Aaron had a canned video response shown on the jumbotron. The question is when was that taped??? Bud issued a statement and called him at the park.

The insult however was last Saturday when Selig called A-Rod on Saturday to congratulate him for hitting 500 but only stood up at the game in SF on Saturday when Barry tied it. He never spoke to Bonds personally in any of the games he attended :gun1:

I thought I would be disgusted at watching Bonds hit that 756 long ball. I watched it live last night, and surprisingly enjoyed it. The whole thing felt wrong, but I couldn’t take my eyes off the TV. I still dislike his attitude as a person, he’s big headed, owes nothing to anyone, and it’s all about Barry.

Everyone knows he juiced, and if you still have a doubt take your blinders off. There’s only one thing I hate more than Barry Bonds arrogant %%%%%, and that’s the ‘argument people’. I lump this group all together as a bunch of half minded morons. Their argument is all around the same, some may vary depending on knowledge of the sport. Let me see if I can word this right so people know what group I’m talking about. This is what you have likely herd, or will hear the next couple of days: “Steroids or no steroids you still have to be able to stand in the box and hit those pitches, that takes God given talent, hard work and consistently. He is a great athlete”. (Other more ‘knowledgeable’ fans would now say, and I quote: “pitchers juice more than all other athletes in pro sports combined. Level field in my opinion.”)

I don’t really see why these ‘people’ feel the need to stickup for Barry. They might just do it for argument sake, and that just human nature, we are always right…Aren’t we?

There are not many other things in sports that compare to the greatness of hitting the long ball. You against the pitcher, your team isn’t helping you, and all your manager can do it give you a few signs. It’s like you against the world, you determine the outcome. Like I said, not many other situations in sports compare to you against the pitcher in the 9th with 2 outs when you’re down by 1.

A cheater is a cheater, whether you are willing to admit that Barry gave himself a clear advantage or not.

Like a great comedian says at the end of a rant – This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

-TwYcH

If you can go onto this link and scroll down a little, you can see some of Bonds' memorable homers through the years not to mention his ever-changing physique.

Yahoo! Sports - Sports News, Scores, Rumors, Fantasy Games, and more (http://sports.yahoo.com/)

Gotta disagree about the argument people.

Steroids do not enable you to make contact with ball. Steroids may increase your power and endurance, but the mental game, patience in the batters box, and incredible hand eye co-ordination probably don't benefit from "the Clear".

Who cares if Barry is the record holder or not.

As Jim Leyland recently said on the radio, if this guy was a media darling, we would be appreciating him as one of the greatest players of all time. Instead he's become the poster boy for steroids when numerous players (including pitchers) have been juicing throughout this era.

Baseball is a sport with a long history of cheaters. There have been cheaters in every era, and many HOFers were known cheaters. It's not unique to this era, and it's not unique to Bonds. One can only guess how many legends of the game might have been exposed if there was the media and internet coverage, as well as the scientific testing that today's athletes face, in their era.

Gotta disagree about the argument people.

Steroids do not enable you to make contact with ball. Steroids may (*do)increase your power and endurance, but the mental game, patience in the batters box, and incredible hand eye co-ordination probably don't benefit from "the Clear".


Seem like exactly what you need to become the Home Run king doesn't it?

-I am not taking anything away from that mans God Given talent, his hours of practice in the cage or his love of baseball, just what he earned form cheating-

Gotta disagree about the argument people.

Steroids do not enable you to make contact with ball. Steroids may increase your power and endurance, but the mental game, patience in the batters box, and incredible hand eye co-ordination probably don't benefit from "the Clear".

Who cares if Barry is the record holder or not.

As Jim Leyland recently said on the radio, if this guy was a media darling, we would be appreciating him as one of the greatest players of all time. Instead he's become the poster boy for steroids when numerous players (including pitchers) have been juicing throughout this era.

Baseball is a sport with a long history of cheaters. There have been cheaters in every era, and many HOFers were known cheaters. It's not unique to this era, and it's not unique to Bonds. One can only guess how many legends of the game might have been exposed if there was the media and internet coverage, as well as the scientific testing that today's athletes face, in their era.

Completely agree with this take.

This is the era of "exposed" cheating, not "cheating".

Cheating has existed since the beginning of the game. I applaud the feat. Bonds isn't one of my favorite sports figures. Far from it. I really don't like his personality, nor am I a fan of Pete Rose's charm...however there is no denying their talent. Barry Bonds is quite possibly the best player in the history of baseball. There should be no footnote. ..except that maybe he is a poor liar.

Being stronger gave Bonds a quicker swing. Having a quicker swing allowed him to wait longer before comitting to a pitch. That extra time was critical, because it allowed him more time to identify pitches before starting his swing. So, when he did swing, he had a beat on it and was more likely to make solid contact. This is also why he has an incredible eye for bad pitches. And then, of course, by the time he actually hits the ball, he has a greater bat speed. This means that balls that aren't hit solidly still have a chance of getting over the fence. Steroids definitely help a player hit for power and average.

There are several examples of players who produced inflated batting numbers when they started using steroids and then dropped off after they quit (you know, when their hat sizes shrunk bat to thier original size).

I don't see how you can assume he cheated and be OK with it. If you don't think he used any steroids that is one thing. But who here believes that?

Being stronger gave Bonds a quicker swing. Having a quicker swing allowed him to wait longer before comitting to a pitch. That extra time was critical, because it allowed him more time to identify pitches before starting his swing. So, when he did swing, he had a beat on it and was more likely to make solid contact. This is also why he has an incredible eye for bad pitches. And then, of course, by the time he actually hits the ball, he has a greater bat speed. This means that balls that aren't hit solidly still have a chance of getting over the fence. Steroids definitely help a player hit for power and average.

There are several examples of players who produced inflated batting numbers when they started using steroids and then dropped off after they quit (you know, when their hat sizes shrunk bat to thier original size).

I don't see how you can assume he cheated and be OK with it. If you don't think he used any steroids that is one thing. But who here believes that?

I think most of the league cheats and have always done so. If every player in the Hall was scrutinized like Bonds has been, you'd probably hear echos in that place. Besides, the pitchers are juiced up too. I think the bigger arguement is the league's tinkering around with the strike zone. If we really want to do things in the spirit of fairness, conduct weekly drug screening for everyone, clear out the Hall of Fame and reset the record books.

Being stronger gave Bonds a quicker swing. Having a quicker swing allowed him to wait longer before comitting to a pitch. That extra time was critical, because it allowed him more time to identify pitches before starting his swing. So, when he did swing, he had a beat on it and was more likely to make solid contact. This is also why he has an incredible eye for bad pitches. And then, of course, by the time he actually hits the ball, he has a greater bat speed. This means that balls that aren't hit solidly still have a chance of getting over the fence. Steroids definitely help a player hit for power and average.

There are several examples of players who produced inflated batting numbers when they started using steroids and then dropped off after they quit (you know, when their hat sizes shrunk bat to thier original size).

I don't see how you can assume he cheated and be OK with it. If you don't think he used any steroids that is one thing. But who here believes that?
GREAT POST! :)

If everyone's cheating, then what do we care whether he used steroids or not?

I agree that there are a lot of pitchers who are probably users too. And there are a lot of variables that make it impossible to compare a player like Barry Bonds to Hank and Babe. The baseball, the strikezone, the bats, etc.

Cheating in the old days doesn't seem like it is comparable to me though. A spitball here and there. A corked bat. I bet most of the players back in the day did more to hurt their performance (drinking) than enhance it.

I'm used to thinking about history in golf. In that sport, it is even more difficult to compare legends of the past to the present. The clubs are better, the ball is better, the courses are better maintained. There are so many variables that you can't use numbers to compare. Basically, the equipment is on steroids. You have to use your imagination to compare past to present. But the one thing you don't have to factor into the equation is cheating. If it was revealed that Tiger Woods was on steroids, it would be absolutely devastating to him and the sport. There wouldn't be any of this talk about how all players try to get an advantage and steroids don't help Tiger makes putts. He would be branded a cheater.

Why the leaway in baseball?

If everyone's cheating, then what do we care whether he used steroids or not?

Exactly my point.

I think many sports are like that. You have the short shot clock in NBA. At some point there was no shot clock. There was no 3-point line. Some statistics weren't even kept. NBA has instant replay. NFL has instant replay. I agree that you can't compare directly.

I don’t care a thing about comparing anything.

Barry Bonds used steroids, using steroids is against the rules.

He is a bum, a disgrace to Baseball.

Thanks TaShawn (http://www.pistonsforum.com/members/30.html), valid point!

I agree that there are a lot of pitchers who are probably users too. And there are a lot of variables that make it impossible to compare a player like Barry Bonds to Hank and Babe. The baseball, the strikezone, the bats, etc.

Cheating in the old days doesn't seem like it is comparable to me though. A spitball here and there. A corked bat. I bet most of the players back in the day did more to hurt their performance (drinking) than enhance it.

I'm used to thinking about history in golf. In that sport, it is even more difficult to compare legends of the past to the present. The clubs are better, the ball is better, the courses are better maintained. There are so many variables that you can't use numbers to compare. Basically, the equipment is on steroids. You have to use your imagination to compare past to present. But the one thing you don't have to factor into the equation is cheating. If it was revealed that Tiger Woods was on steroids, it would be absolutely devastating to him and the sport. There wouldn't be any of this talk about how all players try to get an advantage and steroids don't help Tiger makes putts. He would be branded a cheater.

Why the leaway in baseball in other sports?

I don't think any of the major sports are exempt. Cheaters are everywhere. Drug abuse runs rampant in all sports...they just don't get caught. Its kinda like hackers and computers. The faster they crackdown, the faster they come up with a new way to trick the system. Keep in mind that steroids hasn't always been deemed an illegal substance. Most proffesional atheletes take supplements to aid in weight training. I just think that this has grown to be something that is impossible to control. Athletes who cheat, pay for it with their health. Maybe Barry Sanders got it right. Records can indeed be frivolous in sports. At the end of the day, it boils down to championships which result from great teamwork not drug padded stats.

It's one or two of several aspects to be a home run king.

You do realize that there is a lot more to Bonds than Homeruns?

He was the NL MVP in 90, 92 and 93.

He's the only player with 400 HRs and 400 steals, and 500 HRs and 500 steals.

8 Time Gold Glove

All time career walks leader

Do you realize that Bonds has only led the league in HRs twice in his career? That's a testament to his consistency.

The guy led the league in walks 10 times in his career. That probably has a lot to do with why he has such stellar #s and less at bats than Aaron. I don't think people realize that Bonds has walked 1,100 more times than Aaron did. The much ballyhooed difference in ABs shrinks considerably when you take off 1100 odd additional walks.

Barry does look bigger than he did 15 years ago, but so does HOF'er Tony Gwynn..and no I am not accusing him of using any drugs.. Magic Johnson looks bigger too, but we know he taken special drugs just to stay healthy and control the HIV Virus.

Do we really have any real medical proof that Barry actually used steroids. Right now it is accusations from a wide range of various sports figures to sports reporters and of course denials from Barry himself. he will still go into the hall of fame.. probably on the first ballot...

There could have been hundreds of baseball players and definitely football players who used performance enhancement drugs in the 80's and 90's that will never be accused of cheating because they may have tried it once or twice and no one ever found out due to the lack of screening. Of course some didn't have the natural ability of Bonds so it didn't help them anyway.

The pitcher who served up #755 to Barry was found guity of using steroids a couple of years ago, but does anybody care...? Nope the folks who didn't like Barry's attitude over the past 15 years built up this negative persona of the individual chasing baseball's greatest record and of course in the end that was brought on by Barry himself.

My opinion, I thought he should have have stopped playing when the accusations started as I knew the controversy would be there. That way at least Hank could have held on to the record until ARod breaks it in 2015...But of course at that time he will be accused of something too...mark my word.

I too wished that Emmett Smith had stopped playing too so that Payton could hold the rushing record, but Smith 'endured' pain for a couple more seasons to break it while Barry Sanders chose to step aside.....:sssh:

It's one or two of several aspects to be a home run king.

You do realize that there is a lot more to Bonds than Homeruns?

He was the NL MVP in 90, 92 and 93.

He's the only player with 400 HRs and 400 steals, and 500 HRs and 500 steals.

8 Time Gold Glove

All time career walks leader

Do you realize that Bonds has only led the league in HRs twice in his career? That's a testament to his consistency.

The guy led the league in walks 10 times in his career. That probably has a lot to do with why he has such stellar #s and less at bats than Aaron. I don't think people realize that Bonds has walked 1,100 more times than Aaron did. The much ballyhooed difference in ABs shrinks considerably when you take off 1100 odd additional walks.

I am aware.

I think he’s an amazing player, amazing athlete. Also he’s an amazing cheater.

I don’t care a thing about comparing anything.

Barry Bonds used steroids, using steroids is against the rules.

He is a bum, a disgrace to Baseball.

Thanks TaShawn (http://www.pistonsforum.com/members/30.html),valid point!


Problem is, steroids weren't against the rules when Bonds was taking 'em. So, go ahead and hate Barry all you want, but you must add Do-Nothing Selig to that list along with the players' union, the owners and the media. Nobody is exempt here except for the players who didn't take them.

Drugs have been in baseball for years. It is a performance-driven game. Just look back at the '98 season with McGwire and Sosa. Reporters knew McGwire was using HGH and wrote virtually nothing about it. Nobody cared. And now baseball is paying the price.

I agree with Dre. Selig shoulda been there. He is as much to blame as anyone else. He's a paper commissioner at best.

Problem is, steroids weren't against the rules when Bonds was taking 'em. So, go ahead and hate Barry all you want, but you must add Do-Nothing Selig to that list along with the players' union, the owners and the media. Nobody is exempt here except for the players who didn't take them.

Drugs have been in baseball for years. It is a performance-driven game. Just look back at the '98 season with McGwire and Sosa. Reporters knew McGwire was using HGH and wrote virtually nothing about it. Nobody cared. And now baseball is paying the price.

I agree with Dre. Selig shoulda been there. He is as much to blame as anyone else. He's a paper commissioner at best.
My take -

Sammy and McGuire were hitting home runs like crazy, ratings were sky high, and people actually cared about the MLB again. Americas past time was back!

Test Sammy and McGuire in the middle of a legendary season? He didn’t have the balls. The commissioner of Major League Baseball is a grade a prick.

Showing up for Barry’s 755, and having to be told to stand up, and stand their like he had never seen a homerun before. Like a %%%%ing alien had erased him memory the night before. “What’s a homerun?” he looked like a damn dog that had seen Michel Vick walk into a room. It’s more of a disgrace to be the commissioner and show up and stand their like a moron than it would have been to not show up at all. He made himself look like more of a jackass than Barry himself.

My take -

Sammy and McGuire were hitting home runs like crazy, ratings were sky high, and people actually cared about the MLB again. Americas past time was back!

Test Sammy and McGuire in the middle of a legendary season? He didn’t have the balls. The commissioner of Major League Baseball is a grade a prick.

Showing up for Barry’s 755, and having to be told to stand up, and stand their like he had never seen a homerun before. Like a %%%%ing alien had erased him memory the night before. “What’s a homerun?” he looked like a damn dog that had seen Michel Vick walk into a room. It’s more of a disgrace to be the commissioner and show up and stand their like a moron than it would have been to not show up at all. He made himself look like more of a jackass than Barry himself.
Can we send Stern to be the commissioner of the MLB?

Can we send Stern to be the commissioner of the MLB?

Why would you want that? lol :sssh:

My take -

Sammy and McGuire were hitting home runs like crazy, ratings were sky high, and people actually cared about the MLB again. Americas past time was back!

.

I think the MLB's slogan during that time frame was "chicks love the long ball"....so who was going to question steroid use???:sssh:

It was also confirmed that Hammerin Hank's speech was taped a month ago after 'a series of negotiations" I hope that doesn't mean he got paid to tape it?

Bonds is definely a great talent and would have probably been a borderline hall of famer without the roids. That makes this even more frustrating. There is huge incentive for a player to cheat a little to secure their financial future. But for Bonds, he was cheating to break records. Then, we are supposed to applaud the record breaking? Same things with McGuire and Sosa.

Then you got guys like Pudge. He made a mistake, quit taking them and currently relies on hard work and natural ability.

If steroids weren't against the rules when Bonds was taking them, then why woulnd't he just admit that he was taking them?

If steroids weren't against the rules when Bonds was taking them, then why woulnd't he just admit that he was taking them?

AMEN!

That way there couldn't be a *

The "*" is all in people's minds. There are a lot of records that should have them if you're going to tack one onto Bonds.

It's just typical scapegoating. I don't understand how Bonds can be any much more a scapegoat than a guy who took them, and still couldn't compete for a record.

If steroids weren't against the rules when Bonds was taking them, then why woulnd't he just admit that he was taking them?

Cause he knows any admission could possibly steam roll into him being denied entry into the Hall of Fame.

Cause he knows any admission could possibly steam roll into him being denied entry into the Hall of Fame.

Why would they deny him entry into the hall of fame for doing something that is perfectly within the rules?

Why would they deny him entry into the hall of fame for doing something that is perfectly within the rules?

Once his detractors have established that he has had a history of being a steriod user, its a wrap. As long as he doesn't admit to doing it, all attacks remain purely speculative. The moment he admits to taking them at all, it would be as if he said he's taken them his entire career. There is no conclusive evidence to prove him guilty and most have already labled him a cheater and a liar. Why wouldn't he expect that the penality for admitting anything at all would be even more detrimental to his place in history?

So he walks the fine line between the truth and perjury and says that he didn't "knowingly" take steroids. He's not even saying he hasn't taken them. He's just saying that he didn't know it at the time.

I guess the question is not so much whether you think he took them, but rather whether you think he did it on purpose.

I can see taking the wrong pill. But this would be like taking your wife's BC pills for 5 years instead of your lipitor. After a while, you'd think that you would realize something was up.

So he walks the fine line between the truth and perjury and says that he didn't "knowingly" take steroids. He's not even saying he hasn't taken them. He's just saying that he didn't know it at the time.

I guess the question is not so much whether you think he took them, but rather whether you think he did it on purpose.

I can see taking the wrong pill. But this would be like taking your wife's BC pills for 5 years instead of your lipitor. After a while, you'd think that you would realize something was up.

I'm with you. My gut tells me he's guilty. Where we differ is how I feel this affects his standing in the record books. I see this as harassment of a star that isn't friendly with the media. Its like deciding to crack down on the old DL list in basketball. Like one day the press jumps on Joe's back for lying about his players being on the injured list. Its like yeah, I'm lying but its the standard so why are you harassing me?

I took Immodium last night. I don't know what is in it, or how it works. But it did the trick.

This morning, my wrists (RSI/Carpal Tunnel) were burning like coals from Hades had been placed upon them. I took Advil. I have no idea what it does or what is in it. I only know that the pain subsided and I am working away in blissful ignorance.

On Sunday, I had Tunnel Bar BQ (Windsor Classic dinner, directly across the street from the Windsor Tunnel exit). I drenched my ribs in TBQ Sugar Reduced Sauce. I have no idea what is in it. I have no idea what the sugar substitute is. It tasted good, and I ate all the meat.

These guys get handed miracle stuff from supposed experts. Experts other athletes in their sport also trust and rely on. Maybe they should do more due diligence, maybe they are liars. But the reality is that we all take things into our bodies daily without fully understanding their effects, origins, side effects and possibly even their legality.

The reason that they are jumping on him is that this is the most hallowed record in all of sports.

It would be really strange for the media to jump on some no-namer for getting to number 1,057th on the all-time doubles list.

Thoughts on a few things...I had always assumed that baseball had no rules against steroids until a couple of years ago. But today on Mike & Mike in the Morning, they pointed out that steroids were already against the rules back when Bonds is alleged to have started juicing (around 2000/2001). It's just that they didn't start testing until 2005.

It's a fact that's worth pointing out, although I agree with those who will argue that this is a distinction without much of a difference. With no testing going on, it would be somewhat ridiculous to hold players accountable for not having voluntarily policed themselves. It would almost be as if the NBA decided not to pay anyone to referee their games, leaving the players to make their own calls, and everyone started complaining about the players' lack of integrity when they send themselves to the line on every play. Obviously the league would be the ones to blame in that situation. As for Bonds, while I think he did do steroids on purpose, I would nonetheless vote him into the HOF with no hesitation.

Similiarly, when it comes to the blame being heaped on Selig, while I can agree that he hasn't (and didn't) handle this whole thing very well over the years, he's far from the only one to blame. He represents the owners, not the other way around, and so long as they weren't pushing for steroid testing, there wasn't a whole lot he could do about it, even though he should have been more out in front of the issue. The players' union, who had to agree to the testing policy with the owners, also has to shoulder a lot of blame for not having realized how much damage it could do to their sport. So I put the blame for the "steriod era" on (1a) the owners, (1b) Selig, (2) the players' union, and only then (3) the players themselves who may have cheated (including Bonds). The media is in there somewhere as well, maybe in between the union and the individual players. As long as they were hailing McGwire, Sosa, etc. as world-conquering heroes, instead of doing their job right by asking questions and probing for the truth, the incentives for the sport's leadership to curb steroid use were knocked out of whack.

As Jim Leyland recently said on the radio, if this guy was a media darling, we would be appreciating him as one of the greatest players of all time. Instead he's become the poster boy for steroids when numerous players (including pitchers) have been juicing throughout this era.

I argued against this a while back up-thread, and I'll repeat the same argument here again: McGwire is Exhibit A for why Bonds' reputation as a jerk has very little to do with all of this. Nobody was more of a media darling than McGwire, after he broke Maris' record, and nobody was more popular with baseball fans, but his reputation absolutely went in the tank, literally overnight, after his weak testimony before Congress.

The point about other players, including pitchers, not being held to similar account for juicing as Bonds is a fair one, but coupled with McGwire and Sosa, it demonstrates that most people only seem to care about juicing in baseball inasmuch as it affects home run records. That still makes for a pretty incoherent and hypocritical standard, in my opinion, but I also think it invalidates the "people are only criticizing Bonds because they've never liked him" argument.

I like your explanation Dumars4ever.

Cosigned.

I took Immodium last night. I don't know what is in it, or how it works. But it did the trick.

This morning, my wrists (RSI/Carpal Tunnel) were burning like coals from Hades had been placed upon them. I took Advil. I have no idea what it does or what is in it. I only know that the pain subsided and I am working away in blissful ignorance.

On Sunday, I had Tunnel Bar BQ (Windsor Classic dinner, directly across the street from the Windsor Tunnel exit). I drenched my ribs in TBQ Sugar Reduced Sauce. I have no idea what is in it. I have no idea what the sugar substitute is. It tasted good, and I ate all the meat.

These guys get handed miracle stuff from supposed experts. Experts other athletes in their sport also trust and rely on. Maybe they should do more due diligence, maybe they are liars. But the reality is that we all take things into our bodies daily without fully understanding their effects, origins, side effects and possibly even their legality.

Good point, bruh.

I took Immodium last night. I don't know what is in it, or how it works. But it did the trick.

This morning, my wrists (RSI/Carpal Tunnel) were burning like coals from Hades had been placed upon them. I took Advil. I have no idea what it does or what is in it. I only know that the pain subsided and I am working away in blissful ignorance.

On Sunday, I had Tunnel Bar BQ (Windsor Classic dinner, directly across the street from the Windsor Tunnel exit). I drenched my ribs in TBQ Sugar Reduced Sauce. I have no idea what is in it. I have no idea what the sugar substitute is. It tasted good, and I ate all the meat.

These guys get handed miracle stuff from supposed experts. Experts other athletes in their sport also trust and rely on. Maybe they should do more due diligence, maybe they are liars. But the reality is that we all take things into our bodies daily without fully understanding their effects, origins, side effects and possibly even their legality.

I assume that the person who gave you those drugs didn't go to prison. Also, you didn't mention anything about your shoe size growing 2 sizes or your head enlarging.

How would Bonds not notice these things? He had to buy all new shoes.

I assume that the person who gave you those drugs didn't go to prison. Also, you didn't mention anything about your shoe size growing 2 sizes or your head enlarging.

How would Bonds not notice these things? He had to buy all new shoes.

LMAO!!!!!

I assume that the person who gave you those drugs didn't go to prison. Also, you didn't mention anything about your shoe size growing 2 sizes or your head enlarging.

How would Bonds not notice these things? He had to buy all new shoes.
EXACTLY!!!!

When someone is sticking a needle in you, you ask questions. Barry it’s just b-12, and flaxseed lol.

When someone hands you a bottle of pills, you ask what they are. “Their magic Bean stock pills Barry.”

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Mr. Cub talks about Barry


Bonds is the king for sure

August 8, 2007

Here's what this means: Barry Bonds just broke baseball's most sacred record. It means he's the king. Hank Aaron went, what, 33 years as the king? You know, I'm not going to forget Hank, but he did it in a very different time. And so did Barry.

In the time that I played, there was so much focus on Hank and how often he was hitting home runs. And let me tell you, I saw a lot of home runs from Hank. I hit a few myself. But records are made to be broken and I guess one day, somebody might break Barry's record. Might be Alex Rodriguez, he's still young.

I've also thought about history and how Barry Bonds will be remembered, but that remains to be seen, with the young people, the hip-hop generation and all that scene sorting out his career and his accomplishments. And I am sure there are people concerned with how it happened. There has to be. But I'm not one of them. There's no shadow, as far as I'm concerned.

I played against Barry's dad, Bobby, for some time and he even finished up with the Cubs in 1981. His dad was a very good guy and I had a good feeling even then about Barry.

Man, can Barry hit. It seems like to me, maybe I'm crazy, but the better hitters are left-handed hitters. They've got better swings, smoother, they look better swinging the bat. They look wonderful hitting the ball out of the ballpark. Right-handers have a little bit of a hitch in their swings. Barry has a beautiful swing. So did Eddie Mathews, Willie McCovey, Ted Williams, Willie Stargell, Billy Williams, to name a few.

But right now, there's only one, and it's Barry Bonds.



Ernie Banks, "Mr. Cub," hit 512 home runs in his major league career. He was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977.


Sign Up (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-756banksxxaug08,1,5665983.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=3&cset=true)

:hoops:

For those of you who think this record is tainted, you're wrong. Barry said so himself that it isn't tainted. So there. :)


Bonds hits No. 756 to break Aaron's home run record - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ArJGceCkh53VTPUBROq1twM5nYcB?slug=ap-bonds-756&prov=ap&type=lgns)

For those of you who think this record is tainted, you're wrong. Barry said so himself that it isn't tainted. So there. :)


Bonds hits No. 756 to break Aaron's home run record - MLB - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ArJGceCkh53VTPUBROq1twM5nYcB?slug=ap-bonds-756&prov=ap&type=lgns)
Good enough for me.
:)

I took Immodium last night. I don't know what is in it, or how it works. But it did the trick.

This morning, my wrists (RSI/Carpal Tunnel) were burning like coals from Hades had been placed upon them. I took Advil. I have no idea what it does or what is in it. I only know that the pain subsided and I am working away in blissful ignorance.

On Sunday, I had Tunnel Bar BQ (Windsor Classic dinner, directly across the street from the Windsor Tunnel exit). I drenched my ribs in TBQ Sugar Reduced Sauce. I have no idea what is in it. I have no idea what the sugar substitute is. It tasted good, and I ate all the meat.

These guys get handed miracle stuff from supposed experts. Experts other athletes in their sport also trust and rely on. Maybe they should do more due diligence, maybe they are liars. But the reality is that we all take things into our bodies daily without fully understanding their effects, origins, side effects and possibly even their legality.


Bonds reflects a society looking for an edge

We need to start taking a look in the mirror about our unsatiable need to alter ourselves before making a scapegoat of the Giants slugger, who is widely said to have used steroids.
By Kurt Streeter
August 7, 2007


You're a hypocrite . . .

If you knock Barry Bonds and let your daughter sneak an Adderall to do better on her college entrance test, then you're a hypocrite.

If you knock Barry Bonds and filch one of your husband's Prozacs to mellow out for a job interview, then you're the same kind of hypocrite.

Truth is, if you knock Barry Bonds and slip behind the stands to chug a few Red Bulls before playing in the office softball game, then you're a hypocrite too.

A lesser hypocrite, perhaps. But a hypocrite.

Bonds, it is widely said, has used steroids. And steroids, his extremely vocal critics say, have given the Giants slugger an unfair edge that will soon leave him standing alone with the career home run record.

But honestly, would that make Barry Bonds any different from your cousin the violinist, who takes a beta-blocker to steady his hands before a concert? Or you on Viagra, when neither of you really needs drugs medically?

I'm with John Hoberman, a professor at the University of Texas in Austin, who has long studied the tormented relationship among drugs, society and sports.

Not just in baseball, or in the Tour de France, he says, but in society at large, we are on a mad sprint to bust past our normal limits. We're awash in the use of all kinds of performance enhancements -- some illegal, some not.

As long as we do that, Hoberman says, and we don't start taking a long look in the mirror about our unsatiable need to alter ourselves, we need to think hard about singling out Barry Bonds.

He's a scapegoat. I agree.

It's simply hypocritical.

For me, none of this is to excuse illicit drug use by athletes. I cringe at the shadow our drug-addled pros have cast, at the fact I can't tell my nephew Jack that I know his sports heroes are clean.

No, this is about us. Hypocrisy is inexcusable too.

It's one thing that we're already medicinal lemmings. We take way too many pills with the encouragement of doctors who are working under the spell of companies such as Pfizer. It's even worse that loads of us are gulping pills nobody with any medical authority signed off on.

Take a look at two popular medications: Ritalin and Adderall. They can give a distracted kid the focus of a Tibetan monk. Doctors prescribe them for kids with attention disorders. These days, though, they are often the drugs of choice for kids who don't have attention problems but are looking to ace their exams. They help students cram for hours. They make a full day of testing seem as if it lasted 30 minutes.

Let's say your daughter is cramming for her SAT. She gets her hands on some of her best friend's Adderall pills and takes the pills to boost performance. Well, her scores will be stacked against those from other kids across the nation, and she'll have an unfair advantage.

It won't be just an edge in a pro sport that only a few of us have any chance of playing. It will be a cheater's advantage in the race to get into a top college, which for millions of us is the key to a lifetime of success.

How many of these kids get caught? How many get vilified? How many of their parents turn a blind eye?



He makes a lot of good points. People who live in glass houses, blah, blah blah. Too many friggen hypocrites. Not that anyone on this board is one, but a lot of people are, especially on the subject of taking performance enhancing or body enhancing drugs that are legal at the time taken.

Sign Up (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-streeter7aug07,1,2514535.story?ctrack=8&cset=true)

:hoops:

Buddha is right about hypocrisy so I'm willing to own up to this. This is really tough for me to admit. I've taken performance enhancers in the past: I once took Ex-Lax to enhance my performance in the bathroom.

I don't like Bonds wether he used steroids or not. Wether he broke the record or not. What happened was an amazing feat. I can honor the accomplishment, but not the man. I grew up with Bobby Bonds and Willie Mays. Both were gentlemen and good ball players. I never liked Barry, even when he was small. I also didn't like Ty Cobb. He was a blantant racist and went into the stands to fight the fans. The personal stories I heard about Cobb made me realise that it's ok to honor the accomplishments without honoring the person. Many people will be concerned about steriod use and the numbers involved. For me, the most important factor is the type of Man the Pro athlete was...........

For me, the most important factor is the type of Man the Pro athlete was...........

You must not like Jordan then. I can't stand Jordan based on your argument.

You must not like Jordan then. I can't stand Jordan based on your argument.

Not really..........Hard to like a man who single-handedly makes more money from Nike than the 4,200 people in the Asian factory that makes his shoes COMBINED..............This was not a tough question........

Not really..........Hard to like a man who single-handedly makes more money from Nike than the 4,200 people in the Asian factory that makes his shoes COMBINED..............This was not a tough question........

Yeah, I don't buy Nike products.

I don't get the analogy of a guy going behind the bleachers to drink a red bull before the company softball game. Why wouldn't he just drink them on the bench?

And the violinist taking beta blockers? That is a very obscure reference and not really a problem in society.

Viagra? Is this really a parallel? Both that and steroids allow a guy to get past 3rd base I guess.

The tour de France comparison was valid, but those guys are getting crucified for their drug use. The title was taken away from Landis.

And then he wonders why kids who take ritalin before an exam aren't vilified in the same way Bonds is?

I don't get the analogy of a guy going behind the bleachers to drink a red bull before the company softball game. Why wouldn't he just drink them on the bench?

And the violinist taking beta blockers? That is a very obscure reference and not really a problem in society.

Viagra? Is this really a parallel? Both that and steroids allow a guy to get past 3rd base I guess.

The tour de France comparison was valid, but those guys are getting crucified for their drug use. The title was taken away from Landis.

And then he wonders why kids who take ritalin before an exam aren't vilified in the same way Bonds is?

That artcle By Kurt Streeter was so off base. Me drinking a Red Bull before a softball game, is like Barry shooting up, then saying he didn't know if he did, then breaking one of the most prized reconds ever. Kurt Streeter needs to look in the mirrior, where does this moron work, and why is he still employed there after that article. (assuming its not a blog)

Buddha is right about hypocrisy so I'm willing to own up to this. This is really tough for me to admit. I've taken performance enhancers in the past: I once took Ex-Lax to enhance my performance in the bathroom.

:pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

Not really..........Hard to like a man who single-handedly makes more money from Nike than the 4,200 people in the Asian factory that makes his shoes COMBINED..............This was not a tough question........

I wonder if the sweat-shop stigma is slightly misinformed. From what I understand, people working in so-called sweat-shops are making a decent wage for low-class Chinese. We gasp about people working for pennies an hour, but has anybody of those people ever been to China? You can buy an ice cream at McDonalds for 10 cents, buy yourself an entire wardrobe for 2-10$ an article (coats and all) and even travel across the country for less than $40. As I understand, the working conditions need to be improved, but people have crummy working conditions and lousy pay everywhere in China, regardless of the job (unless they are high-powered business people or the like). The cost of living there is also way way less than your average Western nation. Boycotting "sweatshops" or similar actions would just lead eventually to them being shut down, putting hundreds if not thousands of Chinese citizens out of a job. But hey, as long as we sleep better at night, right?

:focus:

What does that really matter that Jordan makes more money than workers? Good for him. Would you really be sweating how much the workers make if you had an advertising contract with a big sports merchandise manufacturer? Would you give some money back to raise the salaries?
Former Home Depot CEO had a $200 million golden parachute package when he was let go. Is that fair? That is just how corporate world operates.

What does that really matter that Jordan makes more money than workers? Good for him. Would you really be sweating how much the workers make if you had an advertising contract with a big sports merchandise manufacturer? Would you give some money back to raise the salaries?
If you're asking me, the answer is yes. If you are asking someone who isn't crazy, the answer is probably no.

I wonder if the sweat-shop stigma is slightly misinformed. From what I understand, people working in so-called sweat-shops are making a decent wage for low-class Chinese. We gasp about people working for pennies an hour, but has anybody of those people ever been to China? You can buy an ice cream at McDonalds for 10 cents, buy yourself an entire wardrobe for 2-10$ an article (coats and all) and even travel across the country for less than $40. As I understand, the working conditions need to be improved, but people have crummy working conditions and lousy pay everywhere in China, regardless of the job (unless they are high-powered business people or the like). The cost of living there is also way way less than your average Western nation. Boycotting "sweatshops" or similar actions would just lead eventually to them being shut down, putting hundreds if not thousands of Chinese citizens out of a job. But hey, as long as we sleep better at night, right?:focus:

Their economy is on the upswing as they break out of their isolation these last hundreds of years. Items, like cars and clothes are being bought in mass quantities now. Their whole infrastructure is changing. I just want the average factory worker in China to have a chance when the prices start their western-like climb.

If you're asking me, the answer is yes. If you are asking someone who isn't crazy, the answer is probably no.
:stooges:

I also wanted to say that I am really proud of Barry Bonds. Not only is he the new home run king, but he has a bigger cranium than any past champion. It's amazing when someone dominates on so many level. :)

As Jim Leyland recently said on the radio, if this guy was a media darling, we would be appreciating him as one of the greatest players of all time. Instead he's become the poster boy for steroids when numerous players (including pitchers) have been juicing throughout this era.

Baseball is a sport with a long history of cheaters. There have been cheaters in every era, and many HOFers were known cheaters. It's not unique to this era, and it's not unique to Bonds. One can only guess how many legends of the game might have been exposed if there was the media and internet coverage, as well as the scientific testing that today's athletes face, in their era.You raise a good point about the long history of baseball cheaters, but the career home run title stands far above all other MLB records in most people's memories. The asterisk will remain in full force and be contemplated for many years to come...that is, unless A-Rod stops screwing around.

How many other countries are worried about the working conditions for American workers?

During the depression, times were obviously tough. Working conditions suffered as competition for remaining jobs increased and employers could pay next to nothing for life threatening jobs. So, unions popped up and created some leverage for the workers.

The best thing we can do for foreign workers is keep buying their product. The rest is up to them.

If you want Nike to pay high wages, then they sure aren't going to have a factory in China. They may as well pay high wages to people in America and save on the shipping costs and the hassle of dealing with the Chinese government.

If you want Nike to pay high wages, then they sure aren't going to have a factory in China. They may as well pay high wages to people in America and save on the shipping costs and the hassle of dealing with the Chinese government.

Exactly!

Their economy is on the upswing as they break out of their isolation these last hundreds of years. Items, like cars and clothes are being bought in mass quantities now. Their whole infrastructure is changing. I just want the average factory worker in China to have a chance when the prices start their western-like climb.

Definitely a good point, and I wholeheartedly agree. One interesting thing about China is the way geography seems to affect the economy. In the east, especially along the seaboard, the economy is booming. In the west, people are starving. Literally starving. And even in the east, the middle class live in conditions that some of the poorest among us wouldn't accept.

It's gunna take the Chinese several generations to move to a credit-based inflationary economy like we have in the West.

You raise a good point about the long history of baseball cheaters, but the career home run title stands far above all other MLB records in most people's memories. The asterisk will remain in full force and be contemplated for many years to come...that is, unless A-Rod stops screwing around.

Leading the MLB in HR's is screwing around?

hahahahahahahahahaha

The sad thing is that pro athletes like Alex Rodriguez and even Tiger Woods will be under suspicion because of the amount of players who have juiced up...................

The sad thing is that pro athletes like Alex Rodriguez and even Tiger Woods will be under suspicion because of the amount of players who have juiced up...................

The sad thing is that they could be "cheating" too. Then what will we say?

Tiger Woods is a big proponent of testing for it on the PGA tour.

Tiger Woods is a big proponent of testing for it on the PGA tour.

Thats not any different from baseball players who have later been found in violation. I'm just sayin....

Thats not any different from baseball players who have later been found in violation. I'm just sayin....

Except Tiger isn't responding to allegations. The tour has no plans of testing and he is stepping up and saying they should. I don't think he suspects any tour players of it, but rather wants to be proactive to avoid the suspicion raised by other sports.

Except Tiger isn't responding to allegations. The tour has no plans of testing and he is stepping up and saying they should. I don't think he suspects any tour players of it, but rather wants to be proactive to avoid the suspicion raised by other sports.

You're probably right. I'm a big Tiger fan. I've just learned not to be shocked anymore when sports figures are linked to performance enhancing drugs.

Tiger is much more muscular than when he was a rookie. He is also losing his hair. Don't know about his head size. Maybe, it's just the length of his hair that's changed.:stirthepot:

Barry Bonds has posted on his website that the Giants are going to not sign him for 2008. I'm surprised, since the fans there do seem to appreciate him. He probably would have signed for a lot less. It'll be interesting to see who picks him up. I'm figuring that at age 43, He'll be in the American league as a DH...........Probably for Much less than the 16 mil he signed for last season...........

Barry Bonds has posted on his website that the Giants are going to not sign him for 2008. I'm surprised, since the fans there do seem to appreciate him. He probably would have signed for a lot less. It'll be interesting to see who picks him up. I'm figuring that at age 43, He'll be in the American league as a DH...........Probably for Much less than the 16 mil he signed for last season...........

I wonder if a team with struggling attendance would sign him, to drum up some business at the gate. I think it would be funny to see him in Devil Rays uniform. He's having an OK season, but pretty subpar for him. He's at 2,935 hits for his career. Maybe he'll want to come back and try to get 3,000.

I wonder if a team with struggling attendance would sign him, to drum up some business at the gate. I think it would be funny to see him in Devil Rays uniform. He's having an OK season, but pretty subpar for him. He's at 2,935 hits for his career. Maybe he'll want to come back and try to get 3,000.


There seemed to be so much love for him back in SF.......Beginning to wonder now if it was just about the money to be made by the team. Devil Rays are a good option, but I think Barry wants a 'ship'.

There seemed to be so much love for him back in SF.......Beginning to wonder now if it was just about the money to be made by the team. Devil Rays are a good option, but I think Barry wants a 'ship'.

Well, there's a short right-field porch in the Bronx.

Well, there's a short right-field porch in the Bronx.

All that would be missing would be Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson...
Don't know if the Yanks would sign him............

All that would be missing would be Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson...
Don't know if the Yanks would sign him............

I think he'll end up in the A.L. as a DH as you mentioned. But I think it would be great if he played for the Dodgers. Would love the reaction of the Giants fans then. Whoa! That would be funny.

Blue Jays would probably take a look at him. He'd be good for ticket sales, strictly from the perspective of an on field spectacle.

I think he'll end up in the A.L. as a DH as you mentioned. But I think it would be great if he played for the Dodgers. Would love the reaction of the Giants fans then. Whoa! That would be funny.


Went to a Dodger / Giants game once at candlestick park. Never saw such a heated baseball rivalry in person like that...............