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Pistons Game 37 of the 2005/6 NBA Regular Season
Thurs. Jan 19th 2006, 8:00 PM Eastern
Madison Square Garden (http://www.madisonsquaregarden.com), built 1968, capacity 19,763
TV: TNT (http://www.tnt.tv/sports/), RNBATV (http://www.nba.com/raptors/raptorstv/)
Radio: WDFN 1130AM (http://www.wdfn.com/)

Knicks will be without Marbury ( Shoulder ) and DAvis ( suspension ) for tonights game.

Knicks have lost 3 straight but are .500 ( 9-9 ) at home. Historically has always been a tough win in NY.

Write it down. Detroit wins #32 105 to 79

BoxScoreAndPlaybyPlay - From nba.com (http://www.nba.com/games/20060119/DETNYK/boxscore.html)

Game Chat will be open for this game. Let's give it a testdrive.

Good thing C-Note didn't shoot too much. He needs to re-assess his shot selection. I figure he'd be backing down Robinson all night. Didn't happen. I don't understand this at all. C-Note ran the offense great though.

Tonight, it was name your mismatch. Tay and Sheed both had mismatches, which they exploited. But let's face it, this is a bad Knicks team that is even worse without Davis and Marbury.

Delfino is quickly turning out to be the surprise of the season. He looks great out there and his defense has improved big time. His game is very much in control. He seems fearless in taking the ball to the rack, too. Muy bien, Carlos.

Darko looked like he cared out there. I was surprised to hear the TNT crew ripping him so hard after he made some plays. All you Darko lovers/Davis haters please note that Davis did not play and Darko did. One less thing to whine about.

McDyess had an uncharacteristically bad shooting night but still rebounded the ball well.

32-5.

That musta been some kind of record for 3 point attempts... wonder if they talked about using this weapon against the anti 3 man?

Reminds me of the 89-90 team when they could spread the floor and open up the passing lanes... if you're defending the Pistons you have to bring a big out on Sheed.... I just hope they don't get too lazy shooting 3's all the time.

Still they took care of business against a green team... the inside help D is getting better.

Absolutely Darko deserves some props for his effort tonight (even if it was against 6' 8" guys)... he played more like that rough TP instead of Charmine tonight.... for our trekies... he'll still leave a lotta clingons around uranus.

From the beginning, Detroit was just toying with NY. There was no way, no how we could lose this game. The starters came out executing, and playing D. Rip was just simply going right to the basket without resistence. For the game, Sheed hit 4 3 pointers, Tay knocked down 18, many with outside shots, but one very impressive drive in from the left and dunk. Rip included some long rangers as the Pistons got over 10 triples in this game. Delfino and Evans each knocked one down late in the game to run that total up. Ben as usual did not score. He blew a wide open dunk, and threw up an airball at the line. And he defended Curry just fine. Billups got over 10 assists but did little scoring himself.

Arroyo came in with a little over 2 minutes left in the first quarter, and left with about 6 minutes to go in the half. A good long stint. We gained just one point during this time, because wide open shots were missed. Dyess was off. By the way, anyone notice all the passes Dyess is dropping? Seems he can't bend those knees down.

Evans made a couple of decent plays when he first came into the game, but contributed very little besides that. Without that triple late in the game you would have to say he had an off night, along with Billups and Dyess. With team, a few people being off just does not matter. Just way too much fire power. I suppose someone will bemoan the fact we counted on so many triples. But these, time and again, were wide open triples. We missed 4 in a row at one point, one each Sheed, CB, Tay, and Rip. So what. Except for CB, each of these players canned multiple threes. Thats a lot of offense.

Delfino flat out looked marvelous in this game. Especially in the 2nd half. In that 2nd half, neither Arroyo nor Evans got in the game until it was pretty well over. Just Dyess and Delfino for a good stretch. Delfino hit two jumpers coming off curls into the middle, drove in and got fouled. Drove from the right and got fouled on a dunk attempt. Plus the late triple, just to show us fans he really can nail triples.

Maxiell was again impressive in getting to the line, but darn, he is looking just steadily worse at the line. Not the way to garner playing time. Darko got 6 points, some bounds, and assist. He had one outside jumper, a layup on a pick and roll, and a tip back.

Biggest issue in my mind tonight, besides Darko of course who I believe is the key to winning it all this year, is Evans. Look, Delfino can flat out play. Give the minutes to Delfino. That would make our team a lot better immediately. This is not hating on Evans. Just really, really liking Delfino.

There was nothing really at all wrong with the play of our bench in that 1st half. Just missing shots. But despite the missed shots, like I said, Arroyo was plus one in that first half. Our defense held.

Dale Davis did not play in garbage time. The Darko detractors are going to have a hard time explaining that. Flip was interviewed before the game by one of the announcers. Flip told the guy that Darko was simply playing behind three very good players. Nothing negative about Darko whatsoever. For the record, Darko ain't missed an outside shot of late. Anyone still want to complain about him taking outside shots during practice in those three on threes? I for one want to see Darko be an outside threat, just like he was the day we got him. There is nothing wrong with a 7 footer having range. When we heard about why Darko was drafted, a big part of it was about how Darko could hit them from anywhere in the gym.

Channing Frye was quite impressive. But his outside shot was the most impressive thing about him when NY sorely needs bigs inside. They need someone to block shots. They ain't got nothing inside at all. This team could absolutely use a guy like Darko. Ha Ha Ha, they can't have him. GO PISTONS!!!!!

WTG Darko!! Keep it up. Give him some time next game Flip to see if he can repeat the performance. (He probably can't, but give him the opportunity).

I "signed" Delfino up for my Fantasy team after tonights game. That will likely kill his progress immediately. :(

Oh, yeah. The starters looked great too...but that's a given. **spoiled**

It seemed like they shot a lot of threes just to show Larry what he missed, but maybe they always shoot that many (I'm too lazy to look).

32-5. Man, whoda thunk it? We are going to look back on this in a few years and just think "WOW"!!!:first::whoo:

reading the last two night how were not playing our bench enough and overplaying our bench. I think people are getting a bit picky here. For one the bench is playing aside the starters to find out combo's that work well and which don't. So for the most part the 4th quarter has been 2 starters and 3 bench players. I got curious after the game and looked at our starters minutes for the last 4 games

avg seasnon avg
Prince 31 29 27 27 28.5 36.4 down 8 mins
Ben 31 33 35 34 33.3 36.5 down 3 mins
Sheed 29 41 26 33 32.3 34.9 down 2.5 mins
Rip 34 36 26 32 32.0 36.8 down 4.8 mins
Billups 33 44 32 32 35.3 35.8 down .5 mins (though the 44 min game killed his average)

If the bench continues to look good i think we can all live with starters averaging in the 32-33 min range.

And who says the draft was a bust 3 years ago..... Delfino was drafted in the same draft Darko was...

I don't think I have ever seen 2 back-back 3-pointers in which both players were so open that they had time to take a step back, rotate the ball to the laces, aim and shoot. Sheed did it and then Evans on the very next play.

Underhanded or not the Knicks did not compete. Pistons are playing great but that was the easiest game of the season so far. At least the Hawks made the Pistons work.

Bottom line....Darko went into Flip's doghouse for not showing up against LB and the knicks the last time these two teams played. This should get him out. We need Darko to begin to show Carlos D type improvement. If Antonio goes down and Darko is not ready we are in trouble. IMO this is a big step playing this well against LB. It's like the little kid who finally stands up to his mean step dad.

In getting to see the Pistons for one of the few times I can, it continues to amaze me how well this team plays together. Rip was just having his way and with Sheed the inside and outside threat, Chauncy did not need to bash his man, like he could have. Taysh was great especially on that move resulting in the dunk. Ben got blocked by the rim again and muffed a pass underneath. I think it completely surprised him. But he was also the absolute intimidator underneath.

Delfino continues to improve and really looks fearless. Looks like the people who have continually said that he does not have Piston DNA can blow that out of their . . . (excuse me, this is a family forum).

I guess you guys have been pulling my leg all along with that stuff about Darko not belonging. 3 out of 3 including a put-back off the side of his hand; that touch pass to (I believe) Delfino for the trey; getting the board to get JMax back to the line; altered a couple of shots. What the heck have you guys been talking about. Everything he did tonight indicated Piston DNA. And I don't know what somebody is talking about with the TNT announcers being down on DMC. The only thing I heard that could be construed as downgrading is the one about adding to his stats during garbage time, and to hear most of you talk, that is an asset, not a detriment. Double standards??

It was great to see the look on "little ykw's" face when he was getting a whipping. I know, it is a bad team but after all, they should be well on their way now with the great coaching they are getting :eyebrows: .

It was just great to see a game like this when I don't get to see that many. Guess I will have to sell out down here and move back to the cold north. On the other hand, Midland had 44 accidents last Tuesday with people skidding on ice and wrecking. Guess I will stay here for a while yet. We will be home before the playoffs.

I admire all you guys who stay up north the winters. Na-a-ah, I don't; I wish you could all be down here enjoying the warmth. Besides if you were down here, they would televise more Piston games :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:!

Anyway, great job, Pistons, from top to bottom.

Darko's performance was in garbage time, which apparently he is now taking with some degree of seriousness.

The Hawks could have beat the Knicks by a dozen tonight. They were that bad. It's all unfolding the way I thought it would. LB's getting his rooks some PT, and the Knicks are not done dealing this year. The roster will continue to get tweaked. As Reggie Miller said, this team will get turned around. LB's never done less, no reason to think he will this time.

Amazing game by the Pistons. Merc and I were commenting in the game chat that all of this winning and domination is kinda ho-hum. We definitely are getting spoiled on some of the best Detroit basketball played in 14 years.

Nice to see Delfino and Evans continue to raise their games.

The only question left is.... who was auditioning tonight? Darko, Arroyo or both?

After the game they were saying if he could play...,he would be playing. I just hope we don't have a JO on our hands.

And I don't know what somebody is talking about with the TNT announcers being down on DMC. The only thing I heard that could be construed as downgrading is the one about adding to his stats during garbage time, and to hear most of you talk, that is an asset, not a detriment. Double standards??

The reference in the prior post to the "TNT announcers" had to be to two members of the TNT studio crew -- former Cavs coach Paul Silas and Charles Barkley -- who were extremely harsh in their assessment of Darko in post-game comments. Paul Silas said flatly that Darko cannot play, and Barkley went along with that. Barkley basically said that anybody who practiced against the Wallace brothers for as long as Darko has without improving during that period could not have much talent. Both were responding to comments made by David Aldridge (who was also in the studio) that for the first time Joe D. has signalled to other teams that they may be willing to deal Darko.

I guess you guys have been pulling my leg all along with that stuff about Darko not belonging. Everything he did tonight indicated Piston DNA.



Whoaa!!!

Good job by Darko, but it was only one game and against scrubs for the most part. I wouldn't say he has Piston's DNA yet.

Biggest issue in my mind tonight, besides Darko of course who I believe is the key to winning it all this year, is Evans. Look, Delfino can flat out play. Give the minutes to Delfino. That would make our team a lot better immediately. This is not hating on Evans. Just really, really liking Delfino.


It never hurts to have different options off the bench. Evans is still consistantly shooting well and hustling. You can't just knock him out of the rotation because Delfino has a few very solid games. Trust me, I have been a huge Delfino supporter even during the "dark days" when people were questioning his manhood. A part of me wants him to be "the guy" off the bench, but it's nice to have 2 guys that can fill it up at that position off the bench. So, unless Evans really falls off at some point, he still needs to play some.

Also, since you're such a fan of +/- stats, you should know that Evans and Dice are the only players off the bench in the "positive" column overall (outside of never-plays-davis). Not that it means a whole lot, IMO, but it's worth noting. I wish there was a "+/- for non-garbage time" stat.

The reference in the prior post to the "TNT announcers" had to be to two members of the TNT studio crew -- former Cavs coach Paul Silas and Charles Barkley -- who were extremely harsh in their assessment of Darko in post-game comments. That was Coach John Thompson of Georgetown fame, not Paul Silas.

Thompson coached some of the premier talent to play at that college. Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo and Allen Iverson to name a few. When he speaks about big men, his words carry weight. He was an NBA center on the 64-66 Celtics teams.

That was Coach John Thompson of Georgetown fame, not Paul Silas. Thompson coached some of the premier talent to play at that college. Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo and Allen Iverson to name a few. When he speaks about big men, his words carry weight. He was an NBA center on the 64-66 Celtics teams.
My bad. Thanks for the correction and for the additional information about Thompson. He and Barkley were absolutely brutal in their comments about Darko.

I think Thompson said something like "It ain't going to happen" in reference to Darko.

Darko made some smooth plays on offense but his defense sucked as usual. Couple of Jams right over his head and simple cross overs stumped him again. Can't rebound well. Darko is not doing 2 of the main things that will get him PT - Defense and Rebounding.

The reference in the prior post to the "TNT announcers" had to be to two members of the TNT studio crew -- former Cavs coach Paul Silas and Charles Barkley -- who were extremely harsh in their assessment of Darko in post-game comments. Paul Silas said flatly that Darko cannot play, and Barkley went along with that. Barkley basically said that anybody who practiced against the Wallace brothers for as long as Darko has without improving during that period could not have much talent. Both were responding to comments made by David Aldridge (who was also in the studio) that for the first time Joe D. has signalled to other teams that they may be willing to deal Darko.

Of course it was Thompson and not Silas, and Thompson and Barkley are undoubtedly more qualified to assess Darko's potential than guys like Billups, Sheed, and Dyse (Did you all see their reactions to Darko's maneuvers tonight?) who obviously don't have the opportunity to know Darko's game as well as the two :wacko: :wacko: inflated basketball heads.

Of course it was Thompson and not Silas, and Thompson and Barkley are undoubtedly more qualified to assess Darko's potential than guys like Billups, Sheed, and Dyse (Did you all see their reactions to Darko's maneuvers tonight?) who obviously don't have the opportunity to know Darko's game as well as the two :wacko: :wacko: inflated basketball heads.
I'd think that a legendary big man Coach like Thompson has more insight than Chauncey Billups. Last time I checked, CB doesn't coach, recruit or develop talent.

I'd think that a legendary big man Coach like Thompson has more insight than Chauncey Billups. Last time I checked, CB doesn't coach, recruit or develop talent.

But thompson has probably seen a considerable amount less than even us. Chauncey sees him play for every single day for hours at a time.

This time the starters showed no mercy with Larry. Last time, they didn't want to bury his team in Detroit our of respect for the past. Those 3's were in his face so to speak. Sheed can 3-ball with the best of them. What an asset! Chauncey has been off for a while on his shooting. Delfino is going to be really good. I wish he had an added year of experience for our playoff run. Wow, the Pistons are really shopping Darko. The feeling is that he won't get playing time apparantly. I am ok with it either way. I do believe Darko will make a good player but he will need 10-12 minutes a game for two years to really be playoff ready. Let's see what happens.

But thompson has probably seen a considerable amount less than even us. Chauncey sees him play for every single day for hours at a time.

CB's opinion could be biased toward increasing Darko's trade value.

Personally I did not think Darko played that great. His defense was non-existant. More to defense than shot blocking.

Whats up with Maxiel at the free-throw line? Guess he is taking the next Ben Wallace persona to the extreme.

When did the talking heads suddenly get so intelligent? I thought we trusted the Piston players more than outsiders who have their own axes to grind. If Sheed and Chauncey say one thing and those people who we usually despise say something else, who do we believe :confused: ??

Oh! Oh! I know :laugh: :laugh: !!

CB's opinion could be biased toward increasing Darko's trade value.

I came to that conclusion too. Otherwise Chauncy's comments just never made logical sense in light of everything else.

Personally I did not think Darko played that great. His defense was non-existant. More to defense than shot blocking.

True. But he played ok, and if we make a big deal about it, the "Darkoteers" will quit calling us haters.

Whats up with Maxiel at the free-throw line? Guess he is taking the next Ben Wallace persona to the extreme.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everybody. New here. From Argentina.
It seems like Delfino is doing a good job after last season´s fiasco.
I know he has the skills, but I questioned his head.
Now I´m happy for him, as well as my countrymen.
The Pistons will take that trophy back this year.
Pistons-Spurs rematch? wow. Have a nice weekend.

CB's opinion could be biased toward increasing Darko's trade value.

Personally I did not think Darko played that great. His defense was non-existant. More to defense than shot blocking.

Whats up with Maxiel at the free-throw line? Guess he is taking the next Ben Wallace persona to the extreme.

Darko's D was fine, and he did have a pretty good game. Jmax looked lost on D. Darko had to come over to help him out 3 times after Curry lost JMax off the dribble.

JT's opinion means less than zero. LB can't judge talent, and he's one of the best coach's in the league. Anyone remember LB putting in a guy who's currently struggling on a Phillipine pick up team over a guy who may be an allstar this year?

JT has probably never seen Darko play enough to make an intelligent opinon on his ability, but if LB didn't like him, well, that's good enough for him, Darko must stink. And Barkley isn't disagreeing with JT, remember when Barkley said Yao would be a bust?

chauncey was only 1-7, but he still lead the team into battle he finished with 13 assists.

I'd think that a legendary big man Coach like Thompson has more insight than Chauncey Billups. Last time I checked, CB doesn't coach, recruit or develop talent.

Insight...insight on the Darko situation?? Oh give me a break. John Thompson, is nothing but a marble mouth blowhard and this is probably the first time that John Thompson has ever even seen Darko play. And who cares who he has coached. What does who he's coached, have to do with the fact that he's probably never even seen Darko before and probably couldn't pick him out of a lineup?

Before he goes and forms an opinion on a player that he knows absolutely nothing about. He first needs to learn how to speak the damn language or wake up, for God sakes. I don't think I've ever heard him say one intelligent thing in my life. And what he said last night exactly was:

"The guy can't play. If he could play, he would be playing."

That's it. He gave no insight as to what he himself has seen of Darko's play (which undoubtedly is little to none). He based his comment simply on the fact that Darko isn't playing. So like a light weight, weak minded person. He just simply figures if he could play they would play him. That's just simply lazy thinking on his part (which I of course expect from a guy that looks like he's sleeping all the time).

He makes no comment, of course assuming he's even aware of the fact (I do have my doubts), that Darko has never even been given a chance to play consistent minutes since he's been here, let alone play at all. Or the fact that he's playing behind our three All-Stars. Heck, even Barkley pointed that fact out. But no, all Thompson could say was "if he could play, he would be playing."

If you want to take the opinion of a guy that can't even form his own opinion based on facts, things he saw, or anything at all pertaining to the situation, than go right ahead.

Myself, I'll keep on praying he never does any Pistons telecasts in the future. If I want to listen to someone chew on a microphone for 2 1/2 hours, I'll turn on DFN and listen to Mahorn.

Geez, Zo tell me how you really feel. Don't hold back! :eyebrows:

maybe john thompson hasn't seen the way darko posterized his boy alonzo. then in another game punked dikembe and then blocked hook shot. it's weird that his opinion would be that darko can't play especially based on how well he's done against georgetown centers.

it's clear to me john thompson is forming his opinion based on the fact darko isn't playing. he also formed his opinion without looking at all the facts. namely 4 former all stars he's battling with for minutes. he also overlooked the fact that we have been on championship runs since he came into the league no real time to throw a guy into the game just to see how it goes. also in the nba there ain't as much practice as he thinks.

Despite the fact that Darko's performance was nothing to write home about to the bashers, does anyone think it at least earned him a few minutes in the second quarter next game . . . . or the game after that . . . . or the game after that :frusty: ???

They need him in there if only to get JMax enough free throw attempts to finally get a point :eyebrows: !!!

Just kidding, guys. I am really not dissing JMax to promote DMC, but I think the same standards should apply to their performances when they both enter the game at the same time. If JMax or Dale would have had the game Darko did, most posters would be using that as a reason to trade Darko. Fess up, now :yield: .

When it comes down to it, Barkley's and Thompson's opinions really don't matter. Barkley is on TNT because his controversial statements hasten good ratings. He's a loudmouth. I was interested to hear Aldridge say the Pistons were "listening" to offers for Darko. Haven't they always listened? This isn't the same as entertaining offers IMO. Dumars' opinion is the only one that really matters with regard to Darko. Agree with Max's earlier post, Darko needs to work on his rebounding. The guy is not in position.

When it comes down to it, Barkley's and Thompson's opinions really don't matter. Barkley is on TNT because his controversial statements hasten good ratings. He's a loudmouth. I was interested to hear Aldridge say the Pistons were "listening" to offers for Darko. Haven't they always listened? This isn't the same as entertaining offers IMO. Dumars' opinion is the only one that really matters with regard to Darko. Agree with Max's earlier post, Darko needs to work on his rebounding. The guy is not in position.

I think what he was trying to say, up till now Dumars wouldn't really listen to your offers, but now he's listening..... but i think it has to be a deal that everybody sees as a great deal for us to do it. Were not trying to trade him, but he's not untouchable like he was the first two years. I myself really can't decide which way is better for us. There is so much potential in the kid. But as my coach in school always said potential is a dangerous word.

Man, I sure do like it when Darko plays because he dominates forums. What other player can boast such high posts/minute played numbers?

What I'm hoping is that Darko is seeing Delfino emerge and recognizing that you CAN work your way into game time. For a long time, it seemed as if you could work 'hard' and not get anywhere...which is very discouraging.

Despite the fact that Darko's performance was nothing to write home about to the bashers, does anyone think it at least earned him a few minutes in the second quarter next game . . . . or the game after that . . . . or the game after that :frusty: ???

They need him in there if only to get JMax enough free throw attempts to finally get a point :eyebrows: !!!

Just kidding, guys. I am really not dissing JMax to promote DMC, but I think the same standards should apply to their performances when they both enter the game at the same time. If JMax or Dale would have had the game Darko did, most posters would be using that as a reason to trade Darko. Fess up, now :yield: .

Yeah, I do think he has earned that.

Unfortunately, I think it's too late for him and the Pistons are thinking something like **well, he looked pretty decent against N.Y. and if we put him in again he may screw up and further lower his trade value**.

I don't think they are thinking **Oh, he looked pretty good, we should play him some more to make sure we aren't losing a great asset.

Now...quit picking on my boy J-Max! :mad:. LOL.

Despite the fact that Darko's performance was nothing to write home about to the bashers, does anyone think it at least earned him a few minutes in the second quarter next game . . . . or the game after that . . . . or the game after that :frusty: ???

They need him in there if only to get JMax enough free throw attempts to finally get a point :eyebrows: !!!

Just kidding, guys. I am really not dissing JMax to promote DMC, but I think the same standards should apply to their performances when they both enter the game at the same time. If JMax or Dale would have had the game Darko did, most posters would be using that as a reason to trade Darko. Fess up, now :yield: .yes. i think darko has earned some meaningful minutes. the darko bashers still found something to say about darko. he had 1 less rebound than rasheed and they find it urgent to point out darko needs to work on his rebounding.

i know you were just joking. but i really do love the thought of a high lost post setup with jmax and darko. darko seems to love to pass to jmax and jmax loves to shoot it when he touches it.

Boo hoo!!! :hurt: Darko needs to work on his rebounding. What an awful thing to say, even if it's true. There's nothing wrong with saying what the guy needs to work on.

Boo hoo!!! :hurt: Darko needs to work on his rebounding. What an awful thing to say, even if it's true. There's nothing wrong with saying what the guy needs to work on.

i agree there is nothing wrong with pointing out something a guy needs to work on.

but i feel darko is singled out for his lack of rebounding. yet our starting power forward rebounds in a similar fashion. i think it's more important for sheed to rebound than it is for darko. i too agree darko should work on rebounding. i think darko should be more aggressive offensively for his own shot. i think darko should knock some people down instead of light fouls. i also think he needs to be on the court to do this.

Sheed gets just over 6 rebounds a game, which ain't great, but when you have the league's leading rebounder, it doesn't matter so much. Ben doesn't score, but Sheed does. Sheed doesn't rebound that well, but Ben does. I don't see Sheed's rebounding being a problem when he brings a lot of other things to the table: great defense and an inside-outside game that causes matchup problems.

Sheed gets just over 6 rebounds a game, which ain't great, but when you have the league's leading rebounder, it doesn't matter so much. Ben doesn't score, but Sheed does. Sheed doesn't rebound that well, but Ben does. I don't see Sheed's rebounding being a problem when he brings a lot of other things to the table: great defense and an inside-outside game that causes matchup problems.

i agree i don't see sheeds rebounding as too much of a problem. it's a team game. mcdyess rebounds well and jmax rebound well. those are the guys usually in with darko. so the team is ok. but darko can get better on the boards he's still young.

Doesn't anybody here notice how many rebounds Sheed backs off on when Ben is bouncing around. I have noticed that it is becoming common knowledge here that Sheed is a weak rebounder. I really don't think that is the case.

Doesn't anybody here notice how many rebounds Sheed backs off on when Ben is bouncing around. I have noticed that it is becoming common knowledge here that Sheed is a weak rebounder. I really don't think that is the case.

Agreed, don't forget the double diget rebound game against SA, last night I think I remember atleast 3 times I heard Ben yell same as they were both there for the rebound. Sheed isn't and has never been about stats, he cares about getting to wear his belt again.

Geez, Zo tell me how you really feel. Don't hold back! :eyebrows:

As you can tell, it's been one of them days. LOL

If you think that's bad, you should've seen me last night screaming at the TV. :doh: :laugh:

I think Darko will be a good player but I don't see where the minutes are coming from on this team in the next two years. darko needs 10-12 minutes a game, not 5-6. I don't agree with Thompson but the problem still remains. Davis is going to get more minutes soon. They spent money on him.

Chris McCoskey said basically (although a lot nicer) what Zo did about the comments from TNT on WDFN this evening.

Is Zoso really Chris McCoskey?

Just kidding.

I stand by my opinion. I don't buy into DMC lovers and DMC haters. I want what is best for the Pistons. if that's Darko taking 18 foot jumpers as we win championships, so be it. I'm not crazy about that style of bball by bigs, but I'm sure that the winning will wear down my preconceptions.

We're not seeing any competitive fire. We're not seeing the rewards of Arnie Kander correcting his movement mechanics, professional weight training, elite practice competition and arguable two of the better coaches in the NBA.

All I care about are results, and there are none. Why I agreed with Thompson was simple. He's right. DMC was GIVEN time early in games and lost it. PERIOD. If he's not playing, THEN HE CAN'T PLAY. Flip is not stupid. He gave into whatever pressures there are to develop DMC early, but as the team starts to round into mid-season form, Darko is left on the outside looking in.

Delfino has played his way onto the court in grand fashion. He's been tremendous lately. Particularly on defense and mixing it up with "name" players. You don't see that from Darko. On the one hand, people say the he doesn't try in garbage time, and yet in NY he did give effort which blows that theory out of the water.

Some folks didn't like his rebounding. You know what I didn't like? That there was a fast break, and he had the opportunity to be the third man, trailing for a rebound putback, or to pressure the inbounds off of the make, and he just pulled up and stopped running.

There is no joy for him in playing. No enthusiasm.

Hey, stay, go, sit, play, I could care less. But for the love of Pete, I'm tired of hearing that he is a teenager (13-19 is a teenager, he's on the outside), or that he isn't getting chances. He's been given chances, he has capitalized on few of them.

Wake up and smell the coffee folks. It went from, you will get playing time, to you have to earn playing time under Flip. Everything we have seen from the new coach indicates that he is nothing like Larry Brown when it comes to player relations.

You see Arroyo and Delfino having fun on the sidelines, because they are interested. If DMC is no longer interested, and just happy to pick up his enormously bloated paychecks, then good for him. Please do it on another squad. We don't need anyone peeing in the Pistons DNA gene pool.

Just had to get that off of my chest.

Here's my take on Arroyo:

1). This favorite plan (call it Plan A) is to practice his crossover dribble out front until he can brakedown his opponent and drive through the lane for a layup. He usually ends up on his butt because he is too weak to finish the shot. He may get a couple of freethrows.

2). If Plan A doesn't work, he goes to Plan B. Same beginning. Dribble around until he can beat his opponent and then drive into the lane. Only this time he can't get to the rim, so he pulls up for a mid-range runner in the lane. He occasionally makes one.

3). If he can't get to the rim, or is blocked from shooting, then he goes to Plan C. He much prefers plans A or B, but will, if forced to, go to plan C. This begins the same way - dribbling around until he can beat is opponent and then driving into the lane. If Plans A or B aren't available then, and only then, he will look to dish off to one of his bigs.

4). If he is unable to beat his opponent off the dribble, and this happens quite frequently, he goes to Plan D. Plan D involves dribbling around for twenty seconds trying to get by his opponent. When he can't, he waits until there is about 4 seconds left on the shot clock and passes quickly to one of his teammates who then has about 3 seconds to throw up some god-awful buzzer-beater. If the shot goes in, Arroyo get an assist. If not, the team-mate gets charged for the shot.

He then retreats to defense. His defense can be summarized quickly by using his nickname: EL MATADOR.

Thus endeth today's lesson.

Here's my take on Arroyo:

1). This favorite plan (call it Plan A) is to practice his crossover dribble out front until he can brakedown his opponent and drive through the lane for a layup. He usually ends up on his butt because he is too weak to finish the shot. He may get a couple of freethrows.

2). If Plan A doesn't work, he goes to Plan B. Same beginning. Dribble around until he can beat his opponent and then drive into the lane. Only this time he can't get to the rim, so he pulls up for a mid-range runner in the lane. He occasionally makes one.

3). If he can't get to the rim, or is blocked from shooting, then he goes to Plan C. He much prefers plans A or B, but will, if forced to, go to plan C. This begins the same way - dribbling around until he can beat is opponent and then driving into the lane. If Plans A or B aren't available then, and only then, he will look to dish off to one of his bigs.

4). If he is unable to beat his opponent off the dribble, and this happens quite frequently, he goes to Plan D. Plan D involves dribbling around for twenty seconds trying to get by his opponent. When he can't, he waits until there is about 4 seconds left on the shot clock and passes quickly to one of his teammates who then has about 3 seconds to throw up some god-awful buzzer-beater. If the shot goes in, Arroyo get an assist. If not, the team-mate gets charged for the shot.

He then retreats to defense. His defense can be summarized quickly by using his nickname: EL MATADOR.

Thus endeth today's lesson.

So how exactly does all this translate into Arroyo having the 2nd highest assist rate in the league, behind only Nash? And why does our offense only drop off two percent between when CB, an MVP candidate, and Arroyo run the point for us. I'd be curious to hear how this is possible with all this overdribbling. What exactly is the magic Arroyo pulls out of his hat to be the most effective assist man in the league despite this great problem of his? (Although Nash is ahead of him in assists per minute, Arroyo blows Nash away in assist to turn ratio.)

Here's my take on Arroyo:

1). This favorite plan (call it Plan A) is to practice his crossover dribble out front until he can brakedown his opponent and drive through the lane for a layup. He usually ends up on his butt because he is too weak to finish the shot. He may get a couple of freethrows.

2). If Plan A doesn't work, he goes to Plan B. Same beginning. Dribble around until he can beat his opponent and then drive into the lane. Only this time he can't get to the rim, so he pulls up for a mid-range runner in the lane. He occasionally makes one.

3). If he can't get to the rim, or is blocked from shooting, then he goes to Plan C. He much prefers plans A or B, but will, if forced to, go to plan C. This begins the same way - dribbling around until he can beat is opponent and then driving into the lane. If Plans A or B aren't available then, and only then, he will look to dish off to one of his bigs.

4). If he is unable to beat his opponent off the dribble, and this happens quite frequently, he goes to Plan D. Plan D involves dribbling around for twenty seconds trying to get by his opponent. When he can't, he waits until there is about 4 seconds left on the shot clock and passes quickly to one of his teammates who then has about 3 seconds to throw up some god-awful buzzer-beater. If the shot goes in, Arroyo get an assist. If not, the team-mate gets charged for the shot.

He then retreats to defense. His defense can be summarized quickly by using his nickname: EL MATADOR.

Thus endeth today's lesson. When i played point guard , i knew I could take anybody off the dribble, but I LOVED NOTHING more than ASSISTS. i had 18 IN ONE HALF in a high school game, but I look back and I know i was a ball hog. I think thats how Carlos is. he CANT score and he gets jollys on padding his assists. i like his bravado and his ghettoness. I dont want him to be plastic in the minutes he gets. He's more of a Kevin porter, my bruddahs, not a Maurice Cheeks..to me THE BEST POINT GUARD OF HIS ERA!

BTW....all of us should watch the spurs vs heat with a lot of interest!!

I have problems comprehending all that. The only 'overdribbling' I see is that he's waiting for the guys to curl around the picks. If anything, he knows he can deliver the right pass at the right time and is holding (too much?)for that opportunity. He plays a lot of two-man basketball and has to learn to be comfortable and trusting of his teammates.

if that's Darko taking 18 foot jumpers as we win championships, so be it. I'm not crazy about that style of bball by bigs, but I'm sure that the winning will wear down my preconceptions.
Does that mean you finally accept Sheed?

We're not seeing any competitive fire. Tipping in an offensive rebound infront of Curry and Frye doesn't count? Not backing down from Mutombo? How bout if he grows a goatee?

All I care about are results, and there are none. Why I agreed with Thompson was simple. He's right. DMC was GIVEN time early in games and lost it. PERIOD. If he's not playing, THEN HE CAN'T PLAY. Flip is not stupid.
6 points, 3 boards, 1 assist in 6 minutes? Sounds like a start. If Darko couldn't play, why hasn't Joe traded him or cut him loose like he did with Rodney White and Mateen Cleaves?

On the one hand, people say the he doesn't try in garbage time, and yet in NY he did give effort which blows that theory out of the water. Which theory is that, that Darko can't play, or Darko doesnt try?


Some folks didn't like his rebounding. You know what I didn't like? That there was a fast break, and he had the opportunity to be the third man, trailing for a rebound putback, or to pressure the inbounds off of the make, and he just pulled up and stopped running. Darko is avg more ebounds per minute than Jmax and Sheed, that isn't a problem. And 7 footers dont run back as the third guy trailing, don't think I've ever seen Shaq do it, even once.

There is no joy for him in playing. No enthusiasm. Are you judging how he looks, Tay has the same look on his face.

Is Darko a disappointment? Of course. Can he play? Sometimes, but I wouldn't say that he CAN'T play. What confuses me so much is why after finally having a good game, people are even more eager to ship him out. Last I checked, he's not hurting the team, unlike some people actually playing. So until he's a problem to the team either on the court or off the court, I have no problem rooting for him.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I didn't think Darko played all that well.

Oh, and Arroyo looked like dog poop and I don't give a crap how great his ass/turn ratio is or his assists per 48 minutes. Stats can be skewed to tell any story you want. I trust my eyes. I watched the entire game and all I saw was crap on a stick.

Both Billups and Arroyo ran the offense just fine thru their first stints. Arroyo did not return to the game until garbage time.

Billups took the ball down the floor 17 times. On 16 of the trips, the Pistons got good shots on the trip down. Now, if we had a bad shot, but got the offensive rebound, and then got a good shot, I still count that as a good shot for the trip. And if you get a good shot, but miss, and then get an offensive board, you already have been credited with a good shot, and what happens further does not matter for that trip down. The only time we did not get a good shot was from CB's turnover. CB left the floor with us up 21-11 after 10 minutes of play. Plus 10.

Arroyo, in the first half, took the ball up the floor 20 times in 8 minutes of playing time. On 18 of those 20 trips, we got a good shot. We outscored the other team 12 to 10 during this time. Plus 2 for Arroyo.

Note, our team just made 6 shots during this 8 minutes, although they took about 18 shots. So we just shot around 33%. But we still kept the lead the same and even bumped it up a couple of points.

Now, those were some good shots taken. Dyess wide open a couple of times. Evans in the corner wide open. Rip on a wide open midranger. Yes, there were defenders there, but none within about a foot and a half of him. These shots, good shots, were simply missed.

Now, as for Arroyo's control of the ball, did he do anything all that fancy? Nope. He threw a pass, a guy happened to move over and the ball hit the back of the guys head. Complete accident. Arroyo palmed the ball for his other turn. Nothing all that fancy. Nothing King James don't get away with regularly. Just palming the ball. His other two turns were in completely meaningless garbage time so I won't even bother to review that.

Let me break this down in a bit more detail. Arroyo came in with 4 starters with 2 minutes to go in the game. On three posessions, we scored 3 straight times, pushing the lead to 15 (from 10).

To start the 2nd quarter, the following unit played for 2.5 minutes. Arroyo, Rip, Delfino, Dyess, Ben. This unit got outscored 6 to 3. They got five darn good shots off on five trips down the floor. They just were not hitting the shots.

From 9:30 to 6:00 of the 2nd, the following unit played. Arroyo, Delfino, Evans, Dyess, Sheed. They were even at 2-2. Just two points scored off 4 good shots taken on 6 trips down the floor. The pass off the guys head took place here. But the Pistons had just taken a good shot and missed, getting the offensive rebound. So for this trip, the good shot was already credited. And the palming occurred here. And that bad call on the official. (But note, it was by no means and obvious call. In slow mo, yes, its obvious that the Knick swiped his hand just over the ball. In real time however, especially from the original angle shown, it looks like the Knick player slapped it out. We got the call, so it was not a turn.

Jammertime:

I agree with your last post. Darko gave a minimal effort with good results. Arroyo didn't look good at all.

Let me be more specific:

Darko plays with NO passion or enthusiasm. In fact he sucks out the enthusiasm from the team. That's my major complaint with him. Until he brings some passion, he'll never amount to much no matter who he plays for.

Arroyo's over dribbiling inhibits the movement of the other players. They run off screens, and then he holds on to the ball. So, they run off another screen and he still holds the ball. Then they quit moving. He's O.K. in transition because he has to do something with the ball. But in half-court, he's a real cork. AND his defense is just awfull: EL MATADORE'

Darko plays with NO passion or enthusiasm. In fact he sucks out the enthusiasm from the team. That's my major complaint with him. Until he brings some passion, he'll never amount to much no matter who he plays for.

I'm with you and Micro on Darko's abysmal lack of enthusiasm, both on the court and on the sidelines. (Flip has already commented on this in a very public way, and that's significant, because Flip is generally tactful and cautious in what he says publicly.) And, contary to what one poster intimated, it's not just that Darko has a quiet personality, as Tay does. It's far deeper than that.

I'd think that a legendary big man Coach like Thompson has more insight than Chauncey Billups. Last time I checked, CB doesn't coach, recruit or develop talent.
Yeah, it sure doesn't take any insight into the game and players to be, perhaps, the best point guard in the game. And of course, he was never the NBA player that John Thompson was. :nod:

Come to think of it, Thompson's probably jealous of Darko because the later at 17 was a better NBA player than he was.

Once again I direct you to the reactions of the key players to Darko's successes. I think this is based on a respect for his talent and not a sign of personal fraudulence.

This kid is down because of the way he was treated. If he gets twenty minutes a game next year--somewhere else--he will be a top ten player in 3-4 years and will be the best center in the NBA in six.

Once again I direct you to the reactions of the key players to Darko's successes. I think this is based on a respect for his talent and not a sign of personal fraudulence.

This kid is down because of the way he was treated. If he gets twenty minutes a game next year--somewhere else--he will be a top ten player in 3-4 years and will be the best center in the NBA in six.

You imply that Chauncey was either being completely honest -- or "fraudulent" -- when he lavished praise on Darko a few months ago. But there is also a third possibility: Chauncey may have been trying to build Darko up, even while harboring some private doubts about his talent. There is nothing dishonorable about overpraising a player to try to make him perform better.

If you are suggesting that Darko's confidence has been undermined by his lack of playing time here, then I think I can agree with you.

I hope you are right about his future in the NBA.

They need him in there if only to get JMax enough free throw attempts to finally get a point :eyebrows: !!!


Yea, because Darko's 37.5% at the line this year is real Chauncey Billups-esque :doh:

It just doesn't matter. Every game thread, every discussion, every Pistons conversation turns into a Darko debate. :bored:

If only the kid could dominate the offensive glass the way he dominates cyberspace.

Amazing how the DHOF club rags about the legitimate observations offered by Alridge, Thompson and Barkley. If those three shared their view, they'd be all over their jockstraps.:confused: The truth hurts don't it?:nod:

darko won't do good here. end of discussion if everyone hasn't seen that yet you should look more closely.

I think you can doubt he will be a good player, but I don't think you can doubt he has talent. However, some of the most talented players in the world can't make it at this level. Talent has to be followed with mental toughness. That’s why the the Kwame Browns are always Kwame Brown. I remember watching an episode of “And 1” on ESPN. Mike James was getting schooled by a few of them guys, but they could never make it in NBA. These are not only the greatest athletes but the stars are the most mentally tough also. Question is can Darko become mentally tough in Detroit, or does he have to go somewhere else with a chip on his shoulder. I hope he makes it somewhere, but I worry he was an 18 year old who had his confidence crushed by LB.

Does that mean you finally accept Sheed? I've always been a Sheed fan. Even when he was in Portland.

Tipping in an offensive rebound infront of Curry and Frye doesn't count? Not backing down from Mutombo? How bout if he grows a goatee? Are we talking about an undrafted free agent, or the second coming of Kevin Garnett. Because if it is the former, I'm impressed. The latter, whoopity-doo!

The goatee worked for Pau Gasol. But then Gasol was a European star before he got here and rookie of the year in the NBA so everything did not hinge on hairstyle or grooming habits.

6 points, 3 boards, 1 assist in 6 minutes? Sounds like a start. If Darko couldn't play, why hasn't Joe traded him or cut him loose like he did with Rodney White and Mateen Cleaves? Dude, it was garbage time. One of maybe 5 times he has shown an effort in garbage time. Let's not make this the stuff of legend. Jmax has come in and lit up people in garbage time and he hardly gets this kind of pub. And he was a late first rounder considered second round talent.

Which theory is that, that Darko can't play, or Darko doesnt try? Take your pick.

Darko is avg more ebounds per minute than Jmax and Sheed, that isn't a problem. And 7 footers dont run back as the third guy trailing, don't think I've ever seen Shaq do it, even once. Wow. You compared DMC to a late first rounder, our catalyst for the championship run in '04 and the most dominant player in the last 10 years. If I had the inclination, it would be easy to find a dozen things Sheed and Shaq do better. But that is besides the point. Running hard out on the break is what guys who are "into" the game do.

Are you judging how he looks, Tay has the same look on his face. Nope. Tay always played well in any time he got in his rookie year. He never stopped working. Facial expressions are bonus.

What confuses me so much is why after finally having a good game, people are even more eager to ship him out. Because he is building trade value.

Last I checked, he's not hurting the team, unlike some people actually playing. So until he's a problem to the team either on the court or off the court, I have no problem rooting for him. His salary is an albatross. It's something his biggest fans always manage to neglect when discussing him. Fiscal reality hurts. It would be great if we could discuss players outside of their contract value, but if you are being honest about evaluation, it is key, particularly for a team built to be under the cap and an owner who demands spending restraint.

Yeah, it sure doesn't take any insight into the game and players to be, perhaps, the best point guard in the game. And of course, he was never the NBA player that John Thompson was. :nod:
Actually their numbers are remarkably close for the first 2 years. Perhaps Thompson can recognize another player who "can't play"?

Come to think of it, Thompson's probably jealous of Darko because the later at 17 was a better NBA player than he was.
Considering neither was an NBA player at 17, that's pure speculation.

Once again I direct you to the reactions of the key players to Darko's successes. I think this is based on a respect for his talent and not a sign of personal fraudulence.
I've never questioned DMC's talent, although his legendary shooting touch is mostly form, and a lot of rim. It's putting it all together to be a player in the league. Preparation, desire, consistency, attitude. You know, intangibles. The stuff in a man's breast and between his ears.

This kid is down because of the way he was treated. If he gets twenty minutes a game next year--somewhere else--he will be a top ten player in 3-4 years and will be the best center in the NBA in six.
I find it amazing that you would say he will be the best center in the NBA in six years, above anyone entering the league in the next 5 years. Is the crystal ball rented or a family heirloom? ;) :D

darko should gain a couple minutes. if he performs well again he should become a good rotation player. darko needs to understand nothing is going to be handed to him especially since he's on a championship team.

Both Billups and Arroyo ran the offense just fine thru their first stints. Arroyo did not return to the game until garbage time.

Billups took the ball down the floor 17 times. On 16 of the trips, the Pistons got good shots on the trip down. Now, if we had a bad shot, but got the offensive rebound, and then got a good shot, I still count that as a good shot for the trip. And if you get a good shot, but miss, and then get an offensive board, you already have been credited with a good shot, and what happens further does not matter for that trip down. The only time we did not get a good shot was from CB's turnover. CB left the floor with us up 21-11 after 10 minutes of play. Plus 10.

Arroyo, in the first half, took the ball up the floor 20 times in 8 minutes of playing time. On 18 of those 20 trips, we got a good shot. We outscored the other team 12 to 10 during this time. Plus 2 for Arroyo.

Note, our team just made 6 shots during this 8 minutes, although they took about 18 shots. So we just shot around 33%. But we still kept the lead the same and even bumped it up a couple of points.

Now, those were some good shots taken. Dyess wide open a couple of times. Evans in the corner wide open. Rip on a wide open midranger. Yes, there were defenders there, but none within about a foot and a half of him. These shots, good shots, were simply missed.

Now, as for Arroyo's control of the ball, did he do anything all that fancy? Nope. He threw a pass, a guy happened to move over and the ball hit the back of the guys head. Complete accident. Arroyo palmed the ball for his other turn. Nothing all that fancy. Nothing King James don't get away with regularly. Just palming the ball. His other two turns were in completely meaningless garbage time so I won't even bother to review that.

Let me break this down in a bit more detail. Arroyo came in with 4 starters with 2 minutes to go in the game. On three posessions, we scored 3 straight times, pushing the lead to 15 (from 10).

To start the 2nd quarter, the following unit played for 2.5 minutes. Arroyo, Rip, Delfino, Dyess, Ben. This unit got outscored 6 to 3. They got five darn good shots off on five trips down the floor. They just were not hitting the shots.

From 9:30 to 6:00 of the 2nd, the following unit played. Arroyo, Delfino, Evans, Dyess, Sheed. They were even at 2-2. Just two points scored off 4 good shots taken on 6 trips down the floor. The pass off the guys head took place here. But the Pistons had just taken a good shot and missed, getting the offensive rebound. So for this trip, the good shot was already credited. And the palming occurred here. And that bad call on the official. (But note, it was by no means and obvious call. In slow mo, yes, its obvious that the Knick swiped his hand just over the ball. In real time however, especially from the original angle shown, it looks like the Knick player slapped it out. We got the call, so it was not a turn.
Good break down Lee....when people talk about "quality" minutes, they can go 2 u for lessons.

One thing I have to say. Even though I'm not a big Darko fanatic, I still think he should get a few more minutes of real playing time after putting out some solid effort the last couple of games in garbage time. Just a few minutes. Just to let him know that his effort will be rewarded. If everytime he puts out good effort and has a solid game it does nothing to help his playing status, it will make him put out even less effort in the future. At least this way he'll have incentive to play hard during garbage time.

Thanks for the props Brother. That is one nice thing about this forum, with the threads, its worth the time to take the notes and post something like this. It does not get lost after 60 minutes of drivel about who is using multiple names in a forum.

Thanks for the props Brother. That is one nice thing about this forum, with the threads, its worth the time to take the notes and post something like this. It does not get lost after 60 minutes of drivel about who is using multiple names in a forum.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Great one Lee!

I can count on 1 hand the # of times I've visited the detnews forum since PF.com opened, but I just happened to be checking up on the Lions and stopped in at the Pistons talk.

Lets just say, I won't be going back. What a freaking waste of time. 5 pages of posts dedicated to Lee's supposed "Muppets" and a "don't call me North American" argument on race.

You have to go back 50 pages to see any legit posts that are actually about the Pistons.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Great one Lee!

I can count on 1 hand the # of times I've visited the detnews forum since PF.com opened, but I just happened to be checking up on the Lions and stopped in at the Pistons talk.

Lets just say, I won't be going back. What a freaking waste of time. 5 pages of posts dedicated to Lee's supposed "Muppets" and a "don't call me North American" argument on race.

You have to go back 50 pages to see any legit posts that are actually about the Pistons.

Unless its a really slow day and I'm just surfing, thus refreshing every 10 or so mins its a waste of time.

To bad too there are a handful of good posters there that are fun to read and things that are brought up that make you go hummmm.... but not worth the time unless its a weekend and have nothing else to do.

Just wish a few more of those "good" posters would migrate here to up the traffic a bit so good debate and discussion wouldn't be so slow at times.

To those in charge, great job..... Keep it up

I find it amazing that you would say he will be the best center in the NBA in six years, above anyone entering the league in the next 5 years. Is the crystal ball rented or a family heirloom? ;) :D

Actually I have two crystal balls and they are family heirlooms.:eyebrows:

Relax a little, micro, when one makes a prediction in a venue such as this, it's understood that this just an opinion, and it is based on his getting the twenty minutes. If he doesn't, he likely will wash out as an NBA player. Now, tell the truth don't you hear those balls clanging?

Relax a little, micro, when one makes a prediction in a venue such as this, it's understood that this just an opinion, and it is based on his getting the twenty minutes.
LOL. I'm cool, based on the condition of your family heirlooms, I gather you are as well. ;)

Smart folk, some of whom post mostly about Darko **tries not to look at you**. Gotta give you the "business" or you might not post again for a month. :D

the Micro: I believe anyone who posts here can have an opinion. And especially so when it agrees with my own :nod: :nod: .

And your opinion which you express each time you post (your tired old tagline) just keeps expressing and expressing ad infinitum. (Note that I did not say 'ad nauseum'). That is because I am being nice on a Sunday.

Aren't these forums wonderful? Nowhere else can we get people to read our opinions and agree or disagree out loud. Keep it up :peace: !!!