Now this will be a real mess.


NBA ref reportedly bet on own games - NBA - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19868741/)

I was about to link to this as well. So who do we think it was? Someone who was refereeing the Dallas-Miami finals and had money on Wade as series MVP?

Finally some justice for the Piston and the Suns. I knew it was too easy for the Spurs and the Cavs to get to the Finals.

This is what I have been saying for a while. It would just be too easy to affect the spread and not the win-loss outcome.

No fans really care if their team is up six and only end up winning by 3, as long as they get the win (excluding Low).

And it can be subtle. The ref doesn't have to do anything too obvious to make it happen, as long as he makes it happen more times than not.


Now which ref was it?

Exactly. Especially at the end of games when things are in the bag. How bout call a few fouls that some refs would let go and then add to the spread with free throws.

It's like I've always said...these guys are either crooked or incompetent with some of the calls we see.

...Looks like crooked is a 2-1 favorite

This is what I have been saying for a while. It would just be too easy to affect the spread and not the win-loss outcome.

No fans really care if their team is up six and only end up winning by 3, as long as they get the win (excluding Low).

And it can be subtle. The ref doesn't have to do anything too obvious to make it happen, as long as he makes it happen more times than not.


Now which ref was it?
Comon, Tay, leave Low alone. :MusicBigGrin: He has enough to worry about as it is.
Now, on the other hand I'd love to know who that ref was. This is interesting stuff indeed. We've always talked about NBA conspiracies, and here may be a proof of something.

Comon, Tay, leave Low alone. :MusicBigGrin: He has enough to worry about as it is.
Now, on the other hand I'd love to know who that ref was. This is interesting stuff indeed. We've always talked about NBA conspiracies, and here may be a proof of something.

I'd be annoyed by it, but Tay's right.:noidea:

We will know soon enough. Stern cannot keep this one quiet. This is going to be a public relations nightmare for him.

Yep, there is a silver lining in every cloud.:MusicBigGrin:

ESPN - TrueHoop (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-26-73/A-potential-nightmare.html)


This is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a professional sports league. For all the talk of image issues, equipment issues, and even drug issues, the word "fix" is most deadly. It is sports' original sin, the reason there's a commissioner in baseball. Betting on the NBA is significantly smaller than on the NFL and baseball and even college basketball. It is a small enough percentage for sports books in Vegas that casinos have even been willing to suspend betting on it under certain circumstances, like last season's All-Star Game. So gambling and the NBA often aren't discussed unless it is in the context of moving a team to Vegas. But it is still big business.
In the past there have been college basketball point shaving tales, but never in the NBA and never involving an official. Getting to a college point guard is one thing, getting to the guy that controls putting players on the foul line is another. Especially in a 48-minute NBA game, where there are so many fouls called and each foul in the bonus is an automatic two shots. There are so many NBA games that are not really close that end up being decided by 5-8 points.

This could be huge and possibly the tip of the iceberg.

This could be huge and possibly the tip of the iceberg.

I think that this will turn out to be one man with a gambling problem and mob ties. We are not going to discover any hidden back-room where NBA referees are conniving up fixing schemes. However, I do agree that is very very bad for the NBA, and as soon as the official is identified, the flood waters are going to come pouring through the gates, any game that this guy has reffed in the last 5 years (or ever) is going to come under scrutiny, and teams are going to cry foul, especially if this happened with a playoffs ref. And what if the Pistons might have been affected? :scared:


I know that speculating is evil when someone's reputation is on the line, but wouldn't Bennet Salvatore (spelling?) easily appeal to the typical stereotype of the vet ref with a gambling problem and mob ties (he is Italian, right?)

SportingNews.com - NBA - Trust in NBA officiating could be shattered (http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=242079)


For many years, the NBA has had to fight the public perception that its referees are unable to operate without bias -- in favor of some players, against others; in favor of some teams, against others. There are ample examples of the star system at play. In 1995, when Hersey Hawkins was playing for the Hornets, Michael Jordan held his arm (and admitted it) to prevent Hawkins from making a winning layup that would have sent the Bulls-Hornets playoff series to a Game 5 in Charlotte. Hawkins said, "It's Michael Jordan, and I'm Hersey Hawkins."
There's no shortage of small-market conspiracy theories, too. Sacramento fans howled in the 2002 playoffs as the Lakers' Shaquille O'Neal bowled over defenders, almost with impunity. The previous year, Ray Allen, then with the Bucks, told reporters that the refs would figure out a way to ensure that the bigger-market Sixers would go to the Finals because, "The bottom line is about making money."

I'm sure the NBA's response will be that their officials watch a lot of game film.

I think that this will turn out to be one man with a gambling problem and mob ties.

For the sake of the league I hope that's right. One guy, in money trouble, with some heavies leaning over his shoulder might be so idiosyncratic that the league could ride out the furor. And if the Spurs end up with another championship with an asterisk beside it, what the hey, they've already got one of those anyway.

But, if max is right, and it is the tip of the iceberg, then it will take years for the league to recover. Hard to imagine there aren't lawyers right now poring over the fine print on those new TV deals looking for all the out clauses that you know are in there.

An update to the article says that there will be an arrest next week.

So this potentially distorts the stats on whether Flip or LB had the higher point spread with the Pistons.

I think that this will turn out to be one man with a gambling problem and mob ties.

This is what a lot of the talk-radio types are saying: Mob ties. I hope that's all it is. That might mitigate the damage for Stern. Still, I would have loved to have seen the look on Davey's face this morning or whenever he found out.

Something here ain't right.

I read somewhere that the ref was into the bookies for $50k. I'm pretty sure most refs pull down over $100k a year, some much more.

$50k is a lot of money when you make $35k or $40k a year. But when you make over $100k, that kind of debt can be easily erased by a more legal debt.

ESPN is now reporting (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943095) which ref it was:


NBA referee Tim Donaghy is under investigation by the FBI for allegations that he bet on games that he officiated over the past two seasons and that he made calls affecting the point spread in games, multiple sources said.

Donaghy, a 13-year veteran of the league, is aware of the investigation and resigned from the NBA recently.

Something here ain't right.

I read somewhere that the ref was into the bookies for $50k. I'm pretty sure most refs pull down over $100k a year, some much more.

$50k is a lot of money when you make $35k or $40k a year. But when you make over $100k, that kind of debt can be easily erased by a more legal debt.

Primarily, that's why I think this mob ties things is spin to keep the other refs who haven't been caught from participating. That's like saying MJ never gambled with any of his teammates, just because he was the only one who was made public. Mob ties? what is this the 50's?

It would be fun to watch replays of the games in question.

I told you guys about this during the Cleveland series. Who believed me? Believe me now.

Is The NBA Crocked or What?

http://www.pistonsforum.com/detroit-pistons-general-discussion/6518-nba-crocked-what.html

:hoops:

Finally some justice for the Piston and the Suns. I knew it was too easy for the Spurs and the Cavs to get to the Finals.

At least half of your statement is true. Lebron he be the man, just like Wade was last year.

:hoops:

This is what I have been saying for a while. It would just be too easy to affect the spread and not the win-loss outcome.

No fans really care if their team is up six and only end up winning by 3, as long as they get the win (excluding Low).

And it can be subtle. The ref doesn't have to do anything too obvious to make it happen, as long as he makes it happen more times than not.


Now which ref was it?

I think you are being a little naive. Millions of fans bet daily on sporting events, including pro basketball. Bets on the final point spread, winner loser, bets on who wins individual quarters. etc.

Fans do care, more than you think, about the final point spread.

:hoops:

I think that this will turn out to be one man with a gambling problem and mob ties. We are not going to discover any hidden back-room where NBA referees are conniving up fixing schemes./quote]

So you are saying that there is no way that this problem can be endemic to NBA officiating like the problem the Catholic church has had and continues to have.

[quote] http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gif L.A. Archdiocese to Pay $600M to Victims http://img.breitbart.com/images/ap.gif (http://www.breitbart.com/partner.php?source=ap) http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gif Jul 14 02:57 PM US/Eastern
By GILLIAN FLACCUS
Associated Press Writer
http://www.breitbart.com/images/common/dot.gif LOS ANGELES (AP) - The Roman Catholic Archdiocese (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22Roman+Catholic%20Archdiocese%22&sid=breitbart.com) of Los Angeles will settle its clergy abuse cases for at least $600 million, by far the largest payout in the church's sexual abuse scandal, The Associated Press learned Saturday.

Attorneys for the archdiocese and alleged victims are expected to announce the deal Monday, the day the first of more than 500 clergy abuse cases was scheduled for jury selection (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22jury+selection%22&sid=breitbart.com), according to two people with knowledge of the agreement. The sources spoke on condition of anonymity because the settlement had not been made public.


The archdiocese and its insurers will pay between $600 million and $650 million to about 500 plaintiffs—an average of $1.2 to $1.3 million per person. The settlement also calls for the release of confidential priest personnel files after review by a judge assigned to oversee the litigation, the sources said.L.A. Archdiocese to Pay $600M to Victims (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QCHPVO0&show_article=1)

:hoops:

ESPN is now reporting (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943095) which ref it was:
What games was he a part of?

He was officiating game 2 between Detroit and Orlando that Detroit won 98-90. Line on the game was -9. Last minute it was all fouls and free throws by Pistons.
ESPN.com - NBA - Play-By-Play - Magic at Pistons (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=270423008)

There were only 12 free throws in the last minute. That isn't much by NBA standards.

And most of them were by us.

I like the "Darko makes 9 foot hook shot" at the :35 second mark.

9 foot hook shot? Try throwing that up at the gym and seeing if you get the ball again.

Wow, isn't this a blip. Rasheed was suspended for 7 games several years ago because of this crook.

We this guy refereed a couple of pistons games last season. Don't think that this ssue stops with Donaghy.

This is only the beginning. 9 times out of 10 there are other crooked ones that need to be added to the list.

We pistons fans have alluded to this for years, now it's coming to fruition.

The felonious Donaghy has some history (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2943705&name=sheridan_chris) with the Pistons. He was working the night the brawl broke out, and he's the ref who Sheed allegedly threatened a few years ago. That incident got a lot of press, and it's probably one of the single biggest causes of Sheed's cursed relationship with the powers that be.
Donaghy also was involved in another controversy a few years back when he engaged in a shouting match with Rasheed Wallace on the loading dock of The Rose Garden in Portland, an incident that led to a seven-game suspension for Wallace, who was then with the Portland Trail Blazers. Donaghy and the two other referees who had worked that game passed by Wallace as they walked to their cars, and Wallace was said to have threatened Donaghy, who had assessed him a technical foul earlier that night during a Grizzlies-Blazers game.

I'll be surprised if more than one ref is involved. There is no way you can keep something like that a secret if it involves many people.

Did he keep it a secret? Somebody found out. And I bet they were tipped off a while ago and he has been watched during the evidence gathering phase since.

Can you say 3 fouls in 2 minutes? Now all of these type of calls will make fans wonder when their team is ahead and all of a sudden their player is put on the bench with 3 quick fouls and the other team goes on a huge run.

Also I heard that it was known in NBA circles that this dude had a serious gambling problem. So whay was he still allowed to officiate games?

Did he keep it a secret? Somebody found out. And I bet they were tipped off a while ago and he has been watched during the evidence gathering phase since.
Which in turn means that NBA allowed games to be fixed during the evidence gathering phase?
:yellowprison:

I'll be surprised if more than one ref is involved. There is no way you can keep something like that a secret if it involves many people.

How many centuries did the Catholic church keeps its problem secret? A number of people in each generation have always suspected it might be the case, but no one suspected it was as broadly prevalent as it is turning out to be.

We have only seen the tip of the betting iceberg here with regard to NBA refs.

:hoops:

How many centuries did the Catholic church keeps its problem secret? A number of people in each generation have always suspected it might be the case, but no one suspected it was as broadly prevalent as it is turning out to be.

We have only seen the tip of the betting iceberg here with regard to NBA refs.

:hoops:
I sure hope not. But if it is true, than fans, as already indicated on ESPN, should get refunds. If you buy something and it turns out to be not what you were buying, shouldn't you be able to return it?

Can you say 3 fouls in 2 minutes? Now all of these type of calls will make fans wonder when their team is ahead and all of a sudden their player is put on the bench with 3 quick fouls and the other team goes on a huge run.

Also I heard that it was known in NBA circles that this dude had a serious gambling problem. So whay was he still allowed to officiate games?
Innocent until proven guilty.

I sure hope not. But if it is true, than fans, as already indicated on ESPN, should get refunds. If you buy something and it turns out to be not what you were buying, shouldn't you be able to return it?

Yes to answer your question.

But the question then is:

What do NBA fans buy when they go to games or subscribe to cable to watch the NBA?

The psychology of the sports fan is not so straight forward. It is a lot more than just about winning.

There is a lot of belonging to a group, the excitement of the game, the discussion of the sport and people in the sport etc.

When I go to NBA games I feel that part of my ticket price is to be able to watch the dancers during time outs, and hob nob with Jack Nicholson etc.

Certainly part of the ticket value is based upon winning and losing but the question becomes what percentage of a ticket value or cable cost is connected to winning and losing as opposed to the other benefits and pleasures that a fan gets by participating in the sport as a fan.

:hoops:

Yes to answer your question.

But the question then is:

What do NBA fans buy when they go to games or subscribe to cable to watch the NBA?

The psychology of the sports fan is not so straight forward. It is a lot more than just about winning.

There is a lot of belonging to a group, the excitement of the game, the discussion of the sport and people in the sport etc.

When I go to NBA games I feel that part of my ticket price is to be able to watch the dancers during time outs, and hob nob with Jack Nicholson etc.

Certainly part of the ticket value is based upon winning and losing but the question becomes what percentage of a ticket value or cable cost is connected to winning and losing as opposed to the other benefits and pleasures that a fan gets by participating in the sport as a fan.

:hoops:
What about all the other gamblers that bet on those tainted games? What about them?

Which in turn means that NBA allowed games to be fixed during the evidence gathering phase?
:yellowprison:

I doubt they would tell the NBA.

What about all the other gamblers that bet on those tainted games? What about them?

Sorry. I don't understand your question.

:hoops:

Sorry. I don't understand your question.

:hoops:
There were people that lost money betting because games were fixed. Can they get a refund? If you play the lottery and later on find out that it is rigged, wouldn't you be trying to get your $$$ back?

Las Vegas can kiss their franchise hopes goodbye. Even if it only ends up being one bad ref, the perception-issue alone will give a reluctant Stern all the reason he needs to keep the NBA out of Vegas.

I know, I know...it's a gambling and organized crime issue not a Las Vegas problem per se, but on the heels of the All Star game mess this is probably the last nail in that coffin.

I wonder when the FBI first started investigating him? I doubt the NBA was made aware of anything until after the season finished.

According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Donaghy officiated 68 games in the 2005-06 season and 63 games in 2006-07. He also worked 20 playoff games, including five last season.

NBA referee allegedly bet on games he officiated - NBA - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19868741/)

Moving this thread to the existing conversation.

There were people that lost money betting because games were fixed. Can they get a refund? If you play the lottery and later on find out that it is rigged, wouldn't you be trying to get your $$$ back?

LOL. Don't they wish. Gambling is gambling and that is one of the variables in gambling. Of course a liberal court might find a way to force the legal gambling institutions to return funds where the better can prove that they bet on a certain game that was fixed and the fix affected their bet and led to them losing the bet.

But a conservative court I think would rule that it is all part of the gambling thing and just another variable in the outcome of the bet that the bettor assumes responsibility for when they bet.

Then again I am no lawyer or judge.

:hoops:

Las Vegas can kiss their franchise hopes goodbye. Even if it only ends up being one bad ref, the perception-issue alone will give a reluctant Stern all the reason he needs to keep the NBA out of Vegas.

I know, I know...it's a gambling and organized crime issue not a Las Vegas problem per se, but on the heels of the All Star game mess this is probably the last nail in that coffin.

Yes but they still have the

Running Rebels and Lady Rebels.

:hoops:

How about NBA players controlled by the mob? Totally far-fetched?

How about NBA players controlled by the mob? Totally far-fetched?

Not at all. In fact, before today, I would have said it was more likely a player was involved than a ref.

Not at all. In fact, before today, I would have said it was more likely a player was involved than a ref.
Yeah, I was just wondering about Chauncey missing all those clutch free throws in some game endings.
:pound:

At least half of your statement is true. Lebron he be the man, just like Wade was last year.

:hoops:

At least Wade brought it. LeBron is just all talk and no show when it really counted. Come on, the Cavs got swept. Who fell asleep at the wheel there.

At least Wade brought it. LeBron is just all talk and no show when it really counted. Come on, the Cavs got swept. Who fell asleep at the wheel there.

Wade had a pretty good supporting cast including Shaq who could still play pretty good two years ago.

Who did Lebron have supporting him? Varejao and Z.

:hoops:

Stern has released a statement (http://www.nba.com/news/stern_statement_070720.html) on NBA.com. Here's the text in full:
"As we previously stated, we have been cooperating with the FBI in their investigation of allegations that a single NBA referee bet on NBA games that he officiated. As part of that cooperation, we were asked by the Government not to comment about the investigation, but in light of the widespread press coverage and the naming of the referee, Tim Donaghy, we consider it appropriate to make a fuller statement.

"We would like to assure our fans that no amount of effort, time or personnel is being spared to assist in this investigation, to bring to justice an individual who has betrayed the most sacred trust in professional sports, and to take the necessary steps to protect against this ever happening again. We will have more to say at a press conference that will be scheduled for next week."
From what I had been reading on news sites and hearing on the radio today, I assumed Stern was just going to go with "the FBI asked us not to comment, so all we'll say is that we're cooperating fully." Instead, he (1) confirmed that Donaghy is the target, and (2) made it clear he thinks Donaghy is guilty as charged. Stern is an attorney, and he wouldn't issue a statement like this unless the evidence was very strong.

We this guy refereed a couple of pistons games last season. Don't think that this ssue stops with Donaghy.

This is only the beginning. 9 times out of 10 there are other crooked ones that need to be added to the list.

We pistons fans have alluded to this for years, now it's coming to fruition.


According to my count, he reffed one regular season Pistons game, and we won it. Every single team in the NBA has fans who think the refs are out to get them. I think it's hogwash, a nice bedtime story to help us feel better about losing or not doing what it takes to dominate the competition.

This issue stops with Donaghy. Take it the bank (or the casino, as it were)

This issue stops with Donaghy. Take it the bank (or the casino, as it were)

And you are positive about this?

100%?

Tim was betting on games he reffed (makes sense) as well as games in which he was not the referee (wait a minute here).

Why would he bet on a game that wasn't "a sure thing" when he could just wait until his number came back around?

Unless of course he had a cohort. Or two. Or three.


All in all, I don't believe we can be 100% sure that Tim is the only guy out there. It's not like the idea to do this was just innovated, and the fact that he did it only proves that it can be done right under the proverbial nose of the NBA.

All Tim amounts to is the only person that got caught. He may still roll over on any buddies he could have been working with.

Then again, if the "mob ties" are true, he might come up missing before then. :)

I just think the "mob ties" thing is a easy tidy way to keep people from looking at other refs. It's easy to say "This guy got caught up with the 'wrong people.'" without actually conducting any further investigations. I seriously doubt he's the only one.

I just think the "mob ties" thing is a easy tidy way to keep people from looking at other refs. It's easy to say "This guy got caught up with the 'wrong people.'" without actually conducting any further investigations. I seriously doubt he's the only one.

I seriously doubt the NBA tries to prevent any further investigations. The NBA is made of money. Anything possible to eradicate this image of truly corrupt referees will be worth it to them. Let the witch hunts begin!

I would love to see some of the games this guy paticipated in. Anyone know which ones he did?

Especially any Pistons games.

I seriously doubt the NBA tries to prevent any further investigations. The NBA is made of money. Anything possible to eradicate this image of truly corrupt referees will be worth it to them. Let the witch hunts begin!
JC, what if they turn up 5 refs in an investigation?

Consider how many games would be under scrutiny as possibly being compromised. The devastation would probably warrant Stern's resignation.

JC, what if they turn up 5 refs in an investigation?

Consider how many games would be under scrutiny as possibly being compromised. The devastation would probably warrant Stern's resignation.


Oh, absolutely. And I do like to play the what if? game, and I like hearing these other ideas about what people think is going on. I just think that Stern is too smart to have let something that ugly happen. He would resign in such a case, I would think, primarily over the perception that he was grossly incompetent in not detecting this or preventing it. Of all the things we say about Davey, has grossly incompetent ever been one of them? The man is a shark, and he has been all over this league. Color me very very surprised if we find out he has let this get away him.

Oh, and devastation is definitely the right word for the fallout from such a revelation.

In the past I haven't believed the refs were compromised by anything, but instead that they were incompetent.

This thing has my head spinning, because it was going on under Stern's nose, and he was implementing zero tolerance which considering that at least 1 ref may have compromised, gave that guy even more tools to affect outcomes.

I think we would be naive to believe that Donaghy was the only NBA ref who ever bet on a game. The question is, are there other active or recently active refs who may have been involved collectively or independently? If a ref gambled 20 years ago and retired, I'm pretty sure they will let that sleeping dog lie, unless they can prove a conspiracy that involved a number of officials.

I'd be very interested to know how many techs and ejections Donaghy meted out last season.

JC, what if they turn up 5 refs in an investigation?

Consider how many games would be under scrutiny as possibly being compromised. The devastation would probably warrant Stern's resignation.


Trust me this story is far from over and more people are involved.

When you think about it perhaps Stern is guilty as well. His mandate that no one can question an official allowed this problem to occur. No other professional sport league allows their refs to make mistakes and they not be addressed by the league. When an NFL or MLB official makes a mistake an appologie is issued by the league and that official is suspended for a couple games if the mistake was critical to the outcome of a game. It doesn't go down like that in the NBA. The refs are always right because Stern said so.


I think Stern should step down. He has offically ruined the NBA.

In the past I haven't believed the refs were compromised by anything, but instead that they were incompetent.



I have to tell you I am not surprised in the least by this. Saddened ,yes. Surprised, no. In truth, I have believed for a long time that the problem goes on in all sports. I am only surprised it took this long to discover.

The refs don't make that much money. Yet daily they are exposed to millionaires many of whom are spoiled and treat them like crap. I don't doubt many are bitter against the sports that employ them.

They probably are approached by several people throughout their careers who tempt them to secure their future by fixing a game here and there. It's just too easy.

Pandora's box has been cracked open. We may not like what we find in there.

http://www.micaela.com/Lipton%20Pandora%27s-Box.jpg

I think Stern should step down. He has offically ruined the NBA.

I agree that Stern should step down. By many accounts, he has done an excellent job of promoting the game. He has made a lot of people rich, including the players. But, in that time, he has amassed a lot of power. Too much power. He can change the game without anyone's permission, which I think you're alluding to. This recent gambling thing is really, in a weird way, just what was needed if you hate Stern: It knocks him down a few notches from his perch. Time for him to leave. I don't think he will, though, as he will subscribe to a strategy of damage control in classic Clintonian fashion. If you resign amid a scandal, that's what people will remember you for (see Richard Nixon), but if you apply damage control, you might just be able to mantain your legacy. Stern's a slick talker; he'll do fine.

I hate that this official has harmed the integrity of the game. But how much integrity did the game really have to begin with? Superstar calls, tech calls if you look the wrong way at a ref, speeding up the game to make it more fan friendly, etc. The game has gone downhill fast in recent years and this is more fuel added to the fire.

Right now the Hboasia channel is playing "Two For The Money" what a co-incident.

I hate that this official has harmed the integrity of the game. But how much integrity did the game really have to begin with? Superstar calls, tech calls if you look the wrong way at a ref, speeding up the game to make it more fan friendly, etc. The game has gone downhill fast in recent years and this is more fuel added to the fire.

Thats pretty much it. Plus old beefs and grudges the refs have with players effects the calls. Every game is called differently - refs dictate what they will and will not call seemingly at random.

A lot of reporters refer to conspiracy theorists in their articles as if anyone who questioned the refs before was paranoid and unstable. Anyone with half a brain can see that the calls vary with the circumstances and who it is being called against.

This could work out to be one of the best things that could have happened if it results in better and more fair calls for everyone.

Thats pretty much it. Plus old beefs and grudges the refs have with players effects the calls. Every game is called differently - refs dictate what they will and will not call seemingly at random.

A lot of reporters refer to conspiracy theorists in their articles as if anyone who questioned the refs before was paranoid and unstable. Anyone with half a brain can see that the calls vary with the circumstances and who it is being called against.

This could work out to be one of the best things that could have happened if it results in better and more fair calls for everyone.I, for one, hope this revelation will be the catalyst to finally institute a replay system similar to the NFL.

IMO Donaghy is just the tip of the iceberg as far as corrupt officiating. His alleged personal gambling issues and mob ties are probably why he is currently the only one under direct accusation right now. To think that he is the only NBA official guilty of fraudulent acts is foolish under the free-reign Stern has given them. The 'one bad apple' claim that Stern is already pushing makes it sound like he won't even entertain the very possible notion that there are others out there...it wreaks of cover-up to me even more so than just plain damage control.

Interesting...check out the player & Flip comments after the Mar 06 Knicks game Donaghy officiated:




Chauncey Billups, who scored 24 points, said afterward that he wishes the league held the officials publically accountable for their calls. “My thing is, after the game, I have to talk about what happened down the stretch, why we did this or that,” Billups said. “I wish the refs had to do that.”“My thing is, if you’re going to let them play, let them play,” Pistons coach Flip Saunders said after the game. “There was a little bit of inconsistency, so it was hard to adapt to that.”The officials called 36 fouls in the second half, including seven technicals. And while the Pistons were careful to take some of the blame in a game they led at one point by 16, they wouldn’t shoulder all of it.“I think (the officials were) more of a factor tonight than any game we’ve played this year,” said Tayshaun Prince, who scored 15 points. “Even though some other games were the same, I thought it was more important in this than any other one.”Also...Sheed was ejected that game while on the bench for trash-talking Steve Franchise


Detroit Bad Boys (http://www.detroitbadboys.com/)

I, for one, hope this revelation will be the catalyst to finally institute a replay system similar to the NFL.

IMO Donaghy is just the tip of the iceberg as far as corrupt officiating. His alleged personal gambling issues and mob ties are probably why he is currently the only one under direct accusation right now. To think that he is the only NBA official guilty of fraudulent acts is foolish under the free-reign Stern has given them. The 'one bad apple' claim that Stern is already pushing makes it sound like he won't even entertain the very possible notion that there are others out there...it wreaks of cover-up to me even more so than just plain damage control.

Anything that forces them to clean up the calls is good news to me.

Donaghy may have been the only one on the take but all fans at some point have had to watch their teams lose due to Superstar calls and other officiating bias. Thats why so many are grabbing onto this. Finally something concrete to throw back at Stern.

Put me in the "tip of the iceburg" club. Looks like there's a whole lottsa rats scurrying around looking for hiding places right about now. Stern included!

This was the Commish who was more concerned about casual apparel worn by inactive players than with the integrity of the game. How do you explain that?

An updated AP article:

NBA referees dealing with questions of credibility - NBA - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19890393/)

...the writer of which sorta painted Cuban's blog comments as in defense of the referees and the league office...but I read it more as Cuban calling for changes in the NBA.

specific tidbits according to ESPN:

Those studying Donaghy's games might have noticed some trends.

When the home team was favored by 0-4½ points, it went 5-12 in games officiated by Donaghy this season, according to Covers.com, a Web site that tracks referee trends. Home underdogs were 1-7 when the spread was 5-9.5 points.

Donaghy was part of a crew working the Heat-Knicks game in New York in February when the Knicks shot 39 free throws to the Heat's eight, technical fouls were called on Heat coach Pat Riley and assistant Ron Rothstein, and the Knicks won by six. New York was favored by 4½.

Sheed might have a big grin on his face today:Donaghy had a run-in with then-Trail Blazer Rasheed Wallace (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3006) at the Rose Garden four years ago.

Wallace was suspended seven games for threatening Donaghy on the loading dock outside the arena in January 2003. Wallace was apparently upset that Donaghy had called a technical foul on him during a game against Memphis that night.

It was the longest NBA suspension ever levied for something that didn't involve drugs or physical contact. Wallace forfeited an estimated $1.6 million in salary.I didn't know the money part of that suspension...the number doesn't sound anywhere close to being right.

ESPN - FBI probes allegations that NBA ref bet on games - NBA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943095)

It's pretty interesting that if you look up Donaghy at covers.com (I think that is the site), he has one of the lowest home team win margin.

I didn't have time to check all of the refs, and am no expert at sports gambling, but I do know that road teams are usually dogs...

and many of the other refs had home teams winning by more than 2.5 points with plenty over 3. Donaghy was under 2.

You gotta remember that dissecting this means breaking down tape, because refs are a 3 man crew, and as I heard on the radio today (and am inclined to believe) there is no such thing as only one cockroach.

This is going to be very interesting as to how it plays out.

From detteams url reference they cited an expert from Marc Cubans Blog which I agree with. Cuban is right. This is a good opportunity to make the game much better. Stern can no longer laugh off the coaches/players and fans complaints about the quality of refering in the NBA.


But in a blog entry titled “Calamity as Catalyst - My Vote of Confidence in the NBA”, Cuban wrote: “The NBA took a hit today. Behind that hit is a catalyst and opportunity for significant change that could make the NBA stronger than it ever has been. It’s a chance to proactively put in place people, processes and transparency that will forever silence those who will question the NBA’s integrity.”

You gotta remember that dissecting this means breaking down tape, because refs are a 3 man crew, and as I heard on the radio today (and am inclined to believe) there is no such thing as only one cockroach.

My experience in life is that is correct

:hoops:

Cuban has been calling for transparency for years, and this last offseason, the old guard ownership backed David Stern to silence him.

You gotta respect Mark for taking the high road when he could tear up the league. But then, he didn't make $3 billion by destroying his own assets.

Cuban for commish.

Cuban has been calling for transparency for years, and this last offseason, the old guard ownership backed David Stern to silence him.

You gotta respect Mark for taking the high road when he could tear up the league. But then, he didn't make $3 billion by destroying his own assets.

Cuban for commish.

Very True. Same for us fans as well. I don't want to see TV contracts cancelled, half full arenas or even the season suspended. But things need to change. This perception of fixing games has been around for at least 20 years and they need to finally start paying attention to it.

This could be a very positive thing. Imagine no more Superstar calls, players getting techs over nothing and such.

Cuban has been calling for transparency for years, and this last offseason, the old guard ownership backed David Stern to silence him.

You gotta respect Mark for taking the high road when he could tear up the league. But then, he didn't make $3 billion by destroying his own assets.

Cuban for commish.

x2 scoe.

As a rather curious sidebar:

Donaghy, a baby-faced 40, is one of four NBA referees to have graduated from Cardinal O'Hara high school in Philadelphia. The others are Joey Crawford, Mike Callahan and Ed Malloy.There's only about 60 referees in the NBA...what are the odds that four guys from the same high school end up officiating during the same seasons? I think the odds of hitting a Powerball or Mega Millions jackpot are probably far better.

ESPN.com - Blogs - Chris Sheridan Blog (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2943705&name=sheridan_chris)

As a rather curious sidebar:

There's only about 60 referees in the NBA...what are the odds that four guys from the same high school end up officiating during the same seasons? I think the odds of hitting a Powerball or Mega Millions jackpot are probably far better.

ESPN.com - Blogs - Chris Sheridan Blog (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2943705&name=sheridan_chris)

There are only about 95,000 people living in Compton CA, what are the odds that 3 of those people would play for the Pistons at the same time?

Tay, Afflalo and Acker?. AJ is from just down the road, not very far from the three of them.

:hoops:

Sorry, everyone, I am still fairly decidedly in the "bad apple" camp until I have anything concrete about a slew of corrupt refs. Of course the NBA could use some improvement what with the superstar calls and whatnot, so I'm hopeful something good comes of all this. I still like hearing all the other opinions though, so keep them coming.

Sports Betting and Gambling Odds Online (http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=144821)

Stern's statement said the FBI is investigating allegations a ''single'' referee bet on basketball. But the law enforcement official, who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the ongoing case, said other arrests are expected.Yeah...that can be taken two ways:
1) bookmakers and or organized crime figures
2) other referees and or NBA personnel

I think both are probable. Now that the cats outta the bag, I see the FBI scouring the NBA from top to bottom.

I remember two Wolves vs Pistons games where the Pistons were completely given the worst game ending calls. Both times they lost by 1 after hitting game winners that did not count because of weird fouls. It was in 04, but I don't remember the refs.

Not fully knowing the law, I have what might be stupid questions. Why is it that Donaghy has been allowed a number of days before turning himself in? Why is he allowed time to try to cover his tracks and possibly cover for others?

Stern has said there will be a PC this week to discuss the issue. Why put it off? Any bets it will occur AFTER Donaghy turns himself in and gives a statement?

from detteams posted article


When the home team was favored by 0-4 1/2 points, it went 5-12 in games officiated by Donaghy this season, according to Covers.com, a Web site that tracks referee trends. Home underdogs were 1-7 when the spread was 5-9.5 points.
Donaghy was part of a crew working the Heat-Knicks game in New York in February when the Knicks shot 39 free throws to the Heat's eight, technical fouls were called on Heat coach Pat Riley and assistant Ron Rothstein, and the Knicks won by six. New York was favored by 4 1/2.


I wonder how many Heat fans complained about the calls and were assured by their sports writers to never blame a loss on the refs. "Stop whining about the calls, thats not why you lost"

Sports Betting and Gambling Odds Online (http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=144821)

Yeah...that can be taken two ways:
1) bookmakers and or organized crime figures
2) other referees and or NBA personnel

I think both are probable. Now that the cats outta the bag, I see the FBI scouring the NBA from top to bottom.

Stern is trying to do damage control. He needs to keep his mouth shut and just say that a full investigation will be done and anyone involved or with direct knowledge working for the NBA will be dealt with. Stern is digging his own grave by making statements that he doesn't have facts to back up.

Crooked Ref, Big Deal

Question to any of you with knowledge of the judicial system.

If there were no ties (alleged) to illegal gambling activities would point shaving be illegal.

Is there a specific legislative mandate that requires officiating parties be honest and of the highest integrity in performance of their duties. Is there a FDA, or a NITSA, or an OSHA to govern officiating. Or, is this business called professional basketball very similar to the business of professional wrestling in that TOTAL CONTROL OF THE OFFICIATING PROCEDURE FALLS WITHIN THE BUSINESS PLAN, to the extent that predetermined outcomes are possible.

Can you say 3 fouls in 2 minutes? Now all of these type of calls will make fans wonder when their team is ahead and all of a sudden their player is put on the bench with 3 quick fouls and the other team goes on a huge run.

Also I heard that it was known in NBA circles that this dude had a serious gambling problem. So whay was he still allowed to officiate games?

Just throwing out theories. A guy with a gambling problem is easily controlled by anyone who can get him money. The league might have looked at him as a resource.

Something here ain't right.

I read somewhere that the ref was into the bookies for $50k. I'm pretty sure most refs pull down over $100k a year, some much more.

$50k is a lot of money when you make $35k or $40k a year. But when you make over $100k, that kind of debt can be easily erased by a more legal debt.

People do not go to the mob for money unless they are desperate. He may have been into the mob for only 50k, but that means he was in debt way beyond that already.

He was officiating game 2 between Detroit and Orlando that Detroit won 98-90. Line on the game was -9. Last minute it was all fouls and free throws by Pistons.
ESPN.com - NBA - Play-By-Play - Magic at Pistons (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=270423008)

So which refs called the fouls in that stretch. That should tell you if more than one ref is involved. Indeed, hey, its all on tape. As someone who studies NBA film as his hobby, I got my suspicions as to which refs are crooked.

Question to any of you with knowledge of the judicial system.

If there were no ties (alleged) to illegal gambling activities would point shaving be illegal.

Is there a specific legislative mandate that requires officiating parties be honest and of the highest integrity in performance of their duties. Is there a FDA, or a NITSA, or an OSHA to govern officiating. Or, is this business called professional basketball very similar to the business of professional wrestling in that TOTAL CONTROL OF THE OFFICIATING PROCEDURE FALLS WITHIN THE BUSINESS PLAN, to the extent that predetermined outcomes are possible.
In the absence of a regulatory body, the free market will determine whether or not the NBA is a viable business model with this sort of public scandal or if it moves to a model based more upon manipulated entertainment than competition with integrity.

Based on the fan responses I have read and heard, this is a big deal to the ticket buying base. Many of those poor souls actually believed the games were won and lost by the players.

As someone who studies NBA film as his hobby, I got my suspicions as to which refs are crooked.

Oh? Do tell!

Or, is this business called professional basketball very similar to the business of professional wrestling in that TOTAL CONTROL OF THE OFFICIATING PROCEDURE FALLS WITHIN THE BUSINESS PLAN, to the extent that predetermined outcomes are possible.

Insert the word "Stern" before "Business" and......

BINGO!

So which refs called the fouls in that stretch. That should tell you if more than one ref is involved. Indeed, hey, its all on tape. As someone who studies NBA film as his hobby, I got my suspicions as to which refs are crooked.

I know your reputation around the League is at stake Lee, but I think you should spill the beans on these other crooked refs. Could be a hassle..getting called in to testify and all...but if you don't take some action this situation may never get resolved.

To me, I hope this opens the door to a revamping of NBA officiating.

A few hours after this column was posted on Sunday morning, an NBA fan posted "highlights" from Game 3 on YouTube that reveal Donaghy making a number of questionable calls during that Spurs-Suns game, including the three-seconds-too-late call on Ginobili that I mentioned in my column (and two months ago as well).

After the call is made, play-by-play announcer Mike Breen calls it a "late whistle" three different times, then a replay of the play shows that there was no contact, followed by Breen saying "doesn't look like there was much there" and partner Jon Barry adding, "I don't know what he saw!"

Collectively, it's a damning collection of anti-Phoenix calls, although not all of them were made by Donaghy. Expect the highlights of this game to eventually become the Zapruder Film of the Donaghy Scandal. Sorry, Phoenix fans.

ESPN Page 2 - The Sports Guy: The Donaghy scandal (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722)
Bill Simmons chiming in on state of officiating in NBA.

...Many of those poor souls actually believed the games were won and lost by the players.

Like I've always said, man: It comes down to coaching. :stirthepot:

NBA ref Donaghy requires police protection (http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070723/UPDATE/707230389/1127/SPORTS0102)


The Daily News reported Sunday, citing unidentified law enforcement sources, that Donaghy will cooperate with authorities and possibly name other officials and players involved in the betting scandal.


This could get uglier than it is now.

NBA ref Donaghy requires police protection (http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070723/UPDATE/707230389/1127/SPORTS0102)



This could get uglier than it is now.
Buddah new this already. He just didn't want to give us specifics.
:stirthepot:
The NBA is crocked.

I know your reputation around the League is at stake Lee, but I think you should spill the beans on these other crooked refs. Could be a hassle..getting called in to testify and all...but if you don't take some action this situation may never get resolved.

To me, I hope this opens the door to a revamping of NBA officiating.

I've got a funny feeling that after the other refs involved are exposed (if indeed there were others), that will be the time when Lee tells us whether he was right or wrong about those he suspected.

Knowing Lee, I'll bet he has a 100 percent hit ratio. :sssh:

This is the cat Sheed had the loading dock shouting match with.
Vendicate the Sheed.

This is the cat Sheed had the loading dock shouting match with.
Vendicate the Sheed.

As soon as this dude is sentenced if I was Sheed I would file a grivance to get a refund on the 1.6 million that he loss for getting suspended for threating the felonious ref.

I got Sheed's back !

ESPN Page 2 - The Sports Guy: The Donaghy scandal (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070722)
Bill Simmons chiming in on state of officiating in NBA.

Great article.

Thats what happends when you ignore public opinion about your refs. Calling the fans whiners and sore losers and bringing in that stupid no tolerance rule.

Here you go Stern. It should be a major concern that hardly anyone was surprised by this.

Hate to say it but I hope there are other refs involved. If there is not then I can see this getting swept under the rug using their "Bad Apple" theory and next season being business as usual.

Great article.

Thats what happends when you ignore public opinion about your refs. Calling the fans whiners and sore losers and bringing in that stupid no tolerance rule.

Here you go Stern. It should be a major concern that hardly anyone was surprised by this.

Hate to say it but I hope there are other refs involved. If there is not then I can see this getting swept under the rug using their "Bad Apple" theory and next season being business as usual.
I think that even if they find no other ref involved, this issue is not going to be easy to sweep under the rug. I wonder, at what point loss of fans will start actually affecting NBA? People are still buying tickets and merchandise, Phoenix is going to sell out 40 games next year irregardles of being screwed by officiating. So it is tough to say what could happen.

David Stern's press conference is scheduled for 11:00 AM tomorrow.

I believe WDFN 1130 AM will be carrying it live.

David Stern's press conference is scheduled for 11:00 AM tomorrow.

I believe WDFN 1130 AM will be carrying it live.

A Stern test for David tomorrow. Probably his toughest yet.

Great article.

Thats what happends when you ignore public opinion about your refs. Calling the fans whiners and sore losers and bringing in that stupid no tolerance rule.

Here you go Stern. It should be a major concern that hardly anyone was surprised by this.

Hate to say it but I hope there are other refs involved. If there is not then I can see this getting swept under the rug using their "Bad Apple" theory and next season being business as usual.
Stern's arrogance is what's really going to hurt him. If this happened to the NFL, everyone would think it's just one bad apple and move on.

But this is the NBA, where everyone already believes it's fixed and people have watched refs call games with two separate rule books, one for stars, and one for everyone else.

Curious to see how Lebron's hop step, Wade's ability to draw fouls, and Shaq's charges are called next year.

YouTube - Another Lebron James travel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH73R9GIbXg)

Question for Stern:

Why were your efforts geared towards enforcing a dress code and forcing YOUR ball down player's throats among other trivial pursuits; as opposed to ensuring the integrity of the game and the league?

This man is "power-drunk." He needs to go.

:gun1:

Stern's arrogance is what's really going to hurt him. If this happened to the NFL, everyone would think it's just one bad apple and move on.

But this is the NBA, where everyone already believes it's fixed and people have watched refs call games with two separate rule books, one for stars, and one for everyone else.

Curious to see how Lebron's hop step, Wade's ability to draw fouls, and Shaq's charges are called next year.

YouTube - Another Lebron James travel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH73R9GIbXg)

Thats exactly it. Only in the NBA would there be this kind of popular reaction to league wide corruption based on 1 guy.

Is it going to make a difference if it does turn out to be only 1 guy? So far Stern has been deaf to peoples complaints so I don't know. They all thought everyone wanted to see Lebran 3 step his way into the Finals.

I don't know we will see. I thought Lebran and Wade getting exposed in the International games would have made a difference and everyone just pretended like it never happened.

Crap rolls downhill. If there ever were any actual league mandated orders to favor certain players or teams then I am sure this ref with nothing to lose will blow the whistle.

Question for Stern:

Why were your efforts geared towards enforcing a dress code and forcing YOUR ball down player's throats among other trivial pursuits; as opposed to ensuring the integrity of the game and the league?

This man is "power-drunk." He needs to go.

:gun1:Amen...it's been a long time coming. He will get respect from NO one any longer...even after all the spin-doctoring he will throw out tomorrow.

Someone at utube put this together. It would be funny if it was not so familiar.

YouTube - Nba Commercial - Traveling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGiBXYJiTF8&mode=related&search)=

Curious to see how Lebron's hop step, Wade's ability to draw fouls, and Shaq's charges are called next year.



You shouldn't be.

Fans and Pundits alike have notoriously short memories.

They forget things like heated rivalries and contradictory player quotes all the time.

Example: Phoenix trying to place Marbury and a hopefully rejuvenated Penny Hardaway together to form a successful duo.

You mean the same Marbury that refused to shake Anfernee's hand during their first game against each other? He told him that he would never shake his hand because he didn't respect him and his game was garbage. Add some "sentence enhancers" in there for effect please.:)

How that slipped the minds of so many people was beyond me.

Yet, alas, that is the way things are.
Average retention period for writers and fans = one game.

You're usually only as good as your last game as an athlete.

But most of us should be able to relate. Most people are only as good as the last day they have worked in their respective jobs.

But most of us should be able to relate. Most people are only as good as the last day they have worked in their respective jobs.

Annual employee reviews and salary contracts in sports are usually not based on the last day or even last week of performance much more than they are on the job performance over the whole period under review.

Under normal circumstances there will always be a little more weight put on the most recent period during the review period, but only in cases of extreme performance change over the review period will a significant amount of weight be put on the most recent performance vs the performance in the beginning or middle of the review period

:hoops:

Annual employee reviews and salary contracts in sports are usually not based on the last day or even last week of performance much more than they are on the job performance over the whole period under review.

Under normal circumstances there will always be a little more weight put on the most recent period during the review period, but only in cases of extreme performance change over the review period will a significant amount of weight be put on the most recent performance vs the performance in the beginning or middle of the review period

:hoops:

10 years ago I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly, but since that time I have often been in the unenviable position of arbitrating numerous so called merit reviews and the processes and procedures that have gone into what they are ultimately comprised of by the reviewer.

It has definitely led me to believe that in most cases recent acts grossly outweigh yearly performance on the whole when it comes to areas of review that tend to be subjective.

Furthermore, when speaking to these same people firsthand on a daily basis, it has become even more apparent to me that the predominating opinion they form of their employees is most definitely based on said employees most recent days performance.

10 years ago I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly, but since that time I have often been in the unenviable position of arbitrating numerous so called merit reviews and the processes and procedures that have gone into what they are ultimately comprised of by the reviewer.

It has definitely led me to believe that in most cases recent acts grossly outweigh yearly performance on the whole when it comes to areas of review that tend to be subjective.

Furthermore, when speaking to these same people firsthand on a daily basis, it has become even more apparent to me that the predominating opinion they form of their employees is most definitely based on said employees most recent days performance.


Thanks for the update

That is too bad it has become that way. But I guess it is inevitable given the culture today, with instant news and the latest headline being on the front web page no more than a couple of hours or so, etc.

:hoops:

When Sheed said "I am tired of all the flopping/cheating" after Game 6 I never thought that he would get this much vindication. 90% sure that other NBA refs do similar stuff, maybe not the exact same thing but things that could effect crucial games.

There will not be full disclosure about what doneghy did; doneghy will plead guilty and the rest will go away......the public will not get any details....the coverup has started already.

There will not be full disclosure about what doneghy did; doneghy will plead guilty and the rest will go away......the public will not get any details....the coverup has started already.

They could take that approach if they are not interested is selling tickets next season.

For the 1st time Stern does not have control over this. The FBI has legal rights to all game footage and the public wants to know.

Link courtesy of Truehoop

Top Ten Signs A Referee Is Fixing Games (http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/index/php/20070724.phtml)

LOL...good top ten list.

Link courtesy of Truehoop

Top Ten Signs A Referee Is Fixing Games (http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/index/php/20070724.phtml)

To which I would add the following.

Sheed get's T's up in the pre-game huddle

:hoops:

A possible Conressional hearing.


WASHINGTON — The chairman of a House subcommittee is requesting a meeting with NBA commissioner David Stern concerning the betting scandal involving former referee Tim Donaghy.
Rep. Bobby Rush, who heads the Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade and Consumer Protection, said he is also considering calling a hearing on the matter “should the facts warrant public scrutiny.”
If the allegations prove true, this could be one of the most damaging scandals in the history of American sports,” the Illinois Democrat wrote in a letter sent to Stern on Wednesday and released to the press on Thursday.

Donaghy is the target of an FBI investigation for allegedly betting on games, including some he officiated, over the last two seasons. He resigned July 9.

Rush wrote that he appreciated the need for the league to conduct its own investigation and that he would like to meet with Stern at “the earliest appropriate time.”

“Unfortunately, fairly or not, the NBA, more than any other professional sport, has been consistently dogged with allegations that league referees needlessly affect the outcomes of games by making bad calls,” Rush wrote.

Congressman wants to meet with Stern (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070726/SPORTS13/70726064/1051/SPORTS03)

Yeah, get all up his YKW.

I can't wait until Sheed starts using this against other NBA refs.:)

So, supposedly, Donaghy is going to "name names" of other refs and players.

That will be interesting.

So, supposedly, Donaghy is going to "name names" of other refs and players.

That will be interesting.
I wonder if Bavetta is on that list?
Or maybe Flip bet on Cavs? (did he say anything about coaches as well?)
:pound:

I would be very surprised if other refs/players are involved. This Doneghy guy has to be a near geneious to get around all the checks and balances they have in place.

This story is beyond gambling. Thats the main story but it would not have the legs it has if not for all the doubts fans have had over the years and all the secrecy Stern has had concerning the refs.

Ya know...I'm still wondering why Donaghy hasn't been arrested yet and is allowed to make his own timeline for interrogation. Instead...they send the police out to protect him?

WHY is this guy allowed this much freedom under the allegations? He pretty much admitted guilt by resigning.

JMO...this whole thing goes much farther than just Donaghy. And the FBI is giving him time and a chance at a plea if he connects the dots for them.

I think Donaghy is the new poster child for the witness protection program.

The checks and balances are a big bluff. There are too many games (1,200+ per year) and the standards must have been relaxed for vets like Donaghy. Also, they say that the NBA was watching him for the past year, but still assigned him to big games. When you look at his personal life, there was obviously something wrong with this guy emotionally. I'm not sure why Stern didn't realize it. Hitting golf balls at his neighbors houses at night. Arguing with everyone. Chasing the mailman in his car. Personal lawsuits against him. etc. He couldn't even get along with Sheed. :MusicBigGrin:

There is always the possibility that he will lie and implicate others in an effort to get some sort of bargain. But it would not be an easy thing to make up. The numbers would have to pan out in the analysis.

This might be the house cleaning event we have been waiting for.

It's a lot easier to hide a thief in the thieves guild than in a courthouse.

Remember that. The best disguise is to be in plain sight.

I would look at who was Doneghy`s partners is the games he worked. To me, it would be somewhat difficult to fix, make bad calls, etc....on a consistent basis without his peers (that are working the game with him) becoming suspicious.

An NBA game has a 3 man crew, for one of those three to have an impact on a game without the other 2 refs knowledge is possible perhaps, but I can`t see it happening often.

I would look at who was Doneghy`s partners is the games he worked. To me, it would be somewhat difficult to fix, make bad calls, etc....on a consistent basis without his peers (that are working the game with him) becoming suspicious.

An NBA game has a 3 man crew, for one of those three to have an impact on a game without the other 2 refs knowledge is possible perhaps, but I can`t see it happening often.You very rarely see a call by one ref over-turned by the others. I think it safe to say there's an unwritten rule to mind each other's backs. Either that or they claim blindness as an exemption when filing their tax returns.

The checks and balances are a big bluff. There are too many games (1,200+ per year) and the standards must have been relaxed for vets like Donaghy. Also, they say that the NBA was watching him for the past year, but still assigned him to big games. When you look at his personal life, there was obviously something wrong with this guy emotionally. I'm not sure why Stern didn't realize it. Hitting golf balls at his neighbors houses at night. Arguing with everyone. Chasing the mailman in his car. Personal lawsuits against him. etc. He couldn't even get along with Sheed. :MusicBigGrin:

There is always the possibility that he will lie and implicate others in an effort to get some sort of bargain. But it would not be an easy thing to make up. The numbers would have to pan out in the analysis.

This might be the house cleaning event we have been waiting for.

True and I agree with you that something was wrong with the guy that should have made the league question his competency.

However, someone hitting golf balls at his neighbors garage is not necessarily a sign of someone having a gambling problem and messing around with illegal bookies.

The league still checked his back account and he was banned from all forms of gambling ( except for horse racing per league policy). So it very ingeneous how he was able to hide the money trail.

As for other refs. Very few would risk a 200K+ job on something they know is going to ruin their careers. Besides they cannot hide the winning so doing so would also be tax evasion.

There is too much to risk for me to believe that this would be widespread.

You don't do the betting yourself, you have someone else do it for you. He was passing off information to repay debts. If he was successful, it would just reduce the amount of money he owed the guys who he tipped off.

You very rarely see a call by one ref over-turned by the others. I think it safe to say there's an unwritten rule to mind each other's backs. Either that or they claim blindness as an exemption when filing their tax returns.

I agree, you rarely see a call overturned by another ref, however, it does happen. If one ref continously makes bad or questionable calls, the other refs must sense somethimg is going on, or else they are extremely naive.

That rule about minding each others backs was damaged last year even befroe this betting mess, with the Tim Duncan incident.

Yeah the NBA had to backtrack quickly after it was said they had a clue back in Jan.
Other wise they knowingly comp.......

As for other refs. Very few would risk a 200K+ job on something they know is going to ruin their careers. Besides they cannot hide the winning so doing so would also be tax evasion.

There is too much to risk for me to believe that this would be widespread.


Folks risk good paying jobs and freedom for not-so-smart reasons all the time. Just open up a paper or turn on the news and there someone is, causing us to ask why would they... or how could they be so stupid?

I'll be surprised if it is found that Tim was the only one doing this.

Folks risk good paying jobs and freedom for not-so-smart reasons all the time. Just open up a paper or turn on the news and there someone is, causing us to ask why would they... or how could they be so stupid?

I'll be surprised if it is found that Tim was the only one doing this.
I'll be surprised if John Q. Public ever finds out how widespread this is.

I'll be surprised if John Q. Public ever finds out how widespread this is.

I agree with this also.

Yeah the NBA had to backtrack quickly after it was said they had a clue back in Jan.
Other wise they knowingly compromised games to catch a cheat.......
{time ran out}

Someone's finally talking about this again...I hope ALL the truth eventually comes out.

NEW YORK - Former NBA referee Tim Donaghy (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20269972/#) planned to plead guilty in federal court on Wednesday to charges alleging he bet on games he officiated, a person familiar with the betting scandal probe said.


Former NBA referee plans to plead guilty - NBA - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20269972/)

One important line in that article:

No other NBA officials or players were expected to be involved in the scandal

I think that's what most of us expected but there were some who thought this was the tip of the iceberg.

One important line in that article:

I think that's what most of us expected but there were some who thought this was the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not sure if anyone actually stated that. I think it has become a generalization based on Stern's initial damage control more than actual facts. If Donaghy is willing to plead guilty, there must be a plea bargain in the works...for which he will pay for by naming names. And if I was him, I'd give up the NBA guys long before I called out any mob connections.

ESPN - TrueHoop (http://myespn.go.com/nba/truehoop)

Approximately four years ago, [Tim Donaghy] began placing bets on NBA games, including games he officiated. At his guilty plea proceeding this morning, Donaghy admitted that in approximately December 2006 he began to receive cash payments from his coconspirators in exchange for providing them with betting recommendations or "picks on NBA games, including games Donaghy officiated. Donaghy and a coconspirator agreed on a code that Donaghy would use over the telephone to indicate his picks. Donaghy admitted that he received payments from his coconspirators for each correct pick. Donaghy received no payment if his pick was incorrect.

Donaghy has had an untreated disease for too long. Hopefully he can get some professional help and fight it successfully and then help others with this similar disease to fight it successfully.

:hoops:

What we have heard today leaves open the possibility that the league decides games before they start. What else could the NBA have been trying to hide? (Read, what other "inside" information could the ref have been leaking?) I hope this is addressed by Stern soon, and thouroughly. Of course, if there is any truth that the NBA has become the WWF, then Stern should just step down, along with any refs, players, whoever, involved.

the part that bothers me more then him betting on games he did ref, that is that he could tell his buddies who to bet on by who was working the games.

We have said it for ages when a certain ref has a piston game were going to have a harder time winning versus another ref. The league would have you believe we were wrong well...... seems there own ref agreed with us all along.

So along those lines how can they not say there were somwhat fixing there own series depending on who they assigned to a series. Don't want detroit to advance ok who do we have that is a piston hater...... want to make sure La beats sacramento.... and so on and so on.

the can of worms is open now

What intrigues me more than anything else about this scandal is; the upcoming seasons officiating.

Everyone knows each and every call will be scrutinized. All refs will or should be held accountable for bad calls. The media will replay and play again each bad call. That is an enormous amount of pressure on the refs.

Let`s face it, there will be mistakes made, the question is, will Stern create a system that holds refs accountable similar to that of the players.


My take is, the refs will be much more tolerant of outbursts by Sheed and others. Unless they mention the betting scandal........:sssh:

Just playing devil's advocate here.

The betting could have only been on the over/under, and not on the winner of the game. Danaghy might have tipped off the gamblers who would use certain ref's tendancies to their advantage... similar to knowing whether a MLB ump has a loose or tight strike zone.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the games are rigged. This is why the NBA hides the information on the refs' assignments until the last minute. They would admit that this information can be abused if it is out there in advance.

The rigging theory is different. It gets at the incentive for the NBA to have higher ratings by making sure that certain teams win. I don't think we are going to get any evidence of that through the Donaghy affair.

Will this ref debacle might become fodder for conspiracy theorists?


Conspiracy theorists....Donaghy is their man on the grassy knoll, their confirmation that seeing is not always believing in the NBA, their cue to remove their pasty faces from the keyboard and come out in the sunshine to take a bow.
All this passes as intellectual enlightenment, as it is defined down in the age of the modem.
If Stern actually were the master puppeteer that he often is portrayed to be in cyberspace, he certainly would not have allowed the small-market Spurs to win the NBA championship four times in the last nine years.
Not only are the Spurs from a small market, but they play a brand of basketball that only the purists can appreciate, as their modest television ratings inevitably reveal.
Yet these immutable facts do not persuade the conspiracy theorists. Finally, all their paranoia has been rewarded in the form of a crooked referee.
This should provide them with enough sustenance to last another generation and a rallying cry: "Remember the crooked ref."
Source:The Washington Times (http://0-find.galegroup.com.elibrary.mel.org/itx/publicationSearch.do?queryType=PH&inPS=true&type=getIssues&prodId=SPN.SP02&currentPosition=0&userGroupName=lom_accessmich&searchTerm=The+Washington+Times&index=JX&tabID=T004&contentSet=IAC-Documents)(August 3, 2007): pC01

The rigging theory is different. It gets at the incentive for the NBA to have higher ratings by making sure that certain teams win. I don't think we are going to get any evidence of that through the Donaghy affair.

I agree. There is an awful lot of money on the table and if it is the case that rigging is involved there are an awful lot of people involved.

This does not have Watergate implications.

It is possible that Donaghy is and will be used to cover up a wider ranging situation such as rigging of key games.

I think that because there would be too much money and too many people involved that we will never know the truth.

:hoops:

I'm hoping the whole thing blows over and it doesn't become an issue throughout the season...heck, we have an openly gay referee an nobody talks about that.

Total misuse of the phrase, "immutable facts".

The Spurs might have had 6 or 7 championships in the last 9 years in them.

Let's face it. Fixing games, fixing series it's not an exact science. If the ball is going in the hoop for one team and not so much for the other, it would take tremendous abuse by the officials to swing a series back the other way.

Frankly, I don't think the playoffs are the smoking gun anyways. There is too much scrutiny. The regular season, with 4 games in 5 nights, and lonely road trips for the Atlanta Hawks to the Pac-NW, games that don't come on to TV until 10:30PM EST are the ones you can tweak and mess with. Hawks cover the spread in Portland as a road dog, could be worth millions to the right bettors.

A few more thoughts.

I've been dying to see if other refs would be implicated. I cannot fathom that this maverick ref would suddenly become this super whistle blower in late game scenarios, and his peers, who practice the same art, many of whom are long time veterans, wouldn't recognize such a thing.

Perhaps the brotherhood of officials deserves some blame, with refs covering for one another, because it seems (from articles I have read recently) that many of them do not respect the league office.

Not being a bettor myself, I still understand that road vs. home has a major influence on the spread, and likely the over/under. In the playoffs, a road dog stealing a game (Pistons ECF Game 7 2005) again could be worth millions. A crooked ref doesn't have to let the Pistons win, he only has to position them close to beating the spread, but the side effect of this is that it puts the road dog in position to steal a game.

This particularly bothers me given how good the Pistons have been on the road in the playoffs and last regular season. It's almost disturbing to think that one or more of those wins, say Billups closing out a game with FTs, may have been a gift from someone with off-the-court financial motives.

Another thing I have been considering, is that to beat any public system, even one that has safeguards in place against abuse and frequent watch-dogging, requires being subtle and finding the least obvious and easiest ways to disguise the exploitation. From what I understand, Donaghy was flushed out off the court, by being implicated by someone who turned over for the state, or a stool pigeon.

Consider for awhile that the "game" he was running, could have carried on indefinitely if it was never disclosed. The NBA did not have the measures in place ON THE COURT to identify inconsistencies in the officiating.

The latest seems to be that Donaghy is copping a plea to supplying information. There doesn't appear to be a smoking gun, via the implication of other refs or even an admission of game fixing. But again, 15 straight times, in games TD officiated, the big money won, when it should only win 50% of the time. It's mathematically 30,000+ to 1 that such an occurrence would happen. And even if it was happening naturally, shouldn't the NBA and it's Vegas monitors been aware that such an unlikely series of events were occurring and launched internal investigations on their own?

Tim Donaghy Details from the Justice Department (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-27-59/Tim-Donaghy-Details-from-the-Justice-Department.html)

Missing From the Documents: Allegations of Fixing Games (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-27-62/Missing-From-the-Documents--Allegations-of-Fixing-Games.html)

Betting Expert: More to This Story (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-27-65/Betting-Expert--More-to-This-Story.html)

The last link is very fascinating.

The last link was interesting. So if the other officials noticed that his officiating style changed drastically, that he was calling more fouls...and they had suspicions that he was manipulating the scores...they still wouldn't have proof. Just suspicion.

To tell the truth this whole thing with Donaghy doesn't bother me very much, because

1. I am surprised that nothing has come out before this about him or other officials, knowing the prevalence of the gambling disease in our society.

2. I would be bothered a lot more if players were found guilty of shaving points and betting, like Rose in baseball. Now if superstar X were found guilty of gambling on games then you really have to start thinking in terms of WWF. But without the player's be involved then you know that they are giving their all to win and that to me is the most important thing.

I have complained about officiating for years so if the nba officials cleaned up their act I would feel something was missing during the season and it just wouldn't be the same watching the games. LOL :lol:

So bottom line I just hope that the press doesn't over kill this subject during the exhibition season and into the regular season.

I would hate to have to spend this next season seeing 75% or more of the print and media coverage talking about

1. The Celtics
2. Durant
3. Suns
4. Officials

I think the first three are a given but hopefully the fourth one disappears into the night like the setting sun.

:hoops:

I would hate to have to spend this next season seeing 75% or more of the print and media coverage talking about

1. The Celtics
2. Durant
3. Suns
4. Officials

I think the first three are a given but hopefully the fourth one disappears into the night like the setting sun.

:hoops:

I am willing to bet you that Durant will not be the rookie most coveted by the media next season. I don`t know who will, I just have a hunch it will not be Durant.

I believe he will have a very good season, to your dismay, however, there are several rookies that could grab the headlines from Mr. Durant.

I am willing to bet you that Durant will not be the rookie most coveted by the media next season. I don`t know who will, I just have a hunch it will not be Durant.

I believe he will have a very good season, to your dismay, however, there are several rookies that could grab the headlines from Mr. Durant.

Au contra' my friend.

I would love nothing better than for Durant to have a good season. He can shoot and score.

I just don't like all the hype over a one dimensional player.

I also don't like the fact that AJ is being ignored by the media and Durant is being overhyped relative to what each will contribute.

All fans love to see their favorites get written up and widely covered by the media. Don't you.

In fact I would love to see him also get rebounds.

I have nothing against him.

I like to see all players succeed except my Pistons.

Have a nice day

Au contra' my friend.

I would love nothing better than for Durant to have a good season. He can shoot and score.

I just don't like all the hype over a one dimensional player.

I also don't like the fact that AJ is being ignored by the media and Durant is being overhyped relative to what each will contribute.

All fans love to see their favorites get written up and widely covered by the media. Don't you.

In fact I would love to see him also get rebounds.

I have nothing against him.

I like to see all players succeed except my Pistons.

Have a nice day

These darn typo's will sometime make me look like a fool

It should have read

I like to see all players succeed except AGAINST my Pistons

:hoops:

Buddha, you can click the edit button on your previous post, and make changes for up to 20 minutes after you first posted. You don't have to quote it and add on if you are just making edits or additions.

I just don't like all the hype over a one dimensional player.

I also don't like the fact that AJ is being ignored by the media and Durant is being overhyped relative to what each will contribute.

All fans love to see their favorites get written up and widely covered by the media. Don't you.

In fact I would love to see him also get rebounds.

I have nothing against him.

I like to see all players succeed except my Pistons.

Have a nice day


"Don`t like the hype over a one dimensional player"

You have critcized the kids mother. So, the one dimensional player line doesn`t add up.


Perhaps the reason thehype is so heavy on the kid is because he had an exceptional college career. AJ didn`t attend college and as of yet has done nothing in the NBA.

He will certainly get his chance this year and IMO, he will do a good job.

I am officially done with commenting on your Kevin Durant hate crusade.

Thanks

Is there a limit to how many posts you can edit in a day? LOL

:hoops:

I don't know if anyone posted this, but here is something.

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/08162007/sports/dirtbag_donaghy_hints_at_other_refs_biases_sports_ marc_berman.htm

An eye opening comment in that article was, "Stern did not comment on refs showing favortisim towards certain players"...........


WOW!!!!!

Doesn't surprise me.

http://www.pistonsforum.com/2007-playoffs/6419-1st-round-game-2-orlando-mon-april-23rd-7pm.html

This is the discussion thread for the playoff game that Donaghy was involved in b/t the Pistons and the Magic.

Detroit was favored by 8.5, but we ended up winning by only 8.
The over/under was 184, which was exceeded by 4 points.

The thing that jumps out to me in the discussion of the game was this quote by Roscoe-

I don't think it will be possible for Hill to get more calls. The referees were treating him like royalty in Game 2.

He did have 13 free throws. In the regular season, he only had more 3 times.

You have critcized the kids mother. So, the one dimensional player line doesn`t add up.

Say what?

Are you okay? Seriously.

:hoops:

An eye opening comment in that article was, "Stern did not comment on refs showing favortisim towards certain players"...........


WOW!!!!!

Why would he?

He may not be loved by all, but he ain't stupid!!!

You don't build up the NBA the way he has and help to increase the player's pay scale and increase owner's profit by being stupid!!!

http://www.pistonsforum.com/2007-playoffs/6419-1st-round-game-2-orlando-mon-april-23rd-7pm.html

This is the discussion thread for the playoff game that Donaghy was involved in b/t the Pistons and the Magic.

Detroit was favored by 8.5, but we ended up winning by only 8.
The over/under was 184, which was exceeded by 4 points.

The thing that jumps out to me in the discussion of the game was this quote by Roscoe-



He did have 13 free throws. In the regular season, he only had more 3 times.
When I get some time (ha!) I will try to see if I have this game, and watch to see Donaghy's calls that affected the score.

Say what?

Are you okay? Seriously.

:hoops:

I guess you post so much you forget what you post huh??



http://www.pistonsforum.com/nba-stuff/7060-durant-just-dont-breathe-him-3.html

I don't mind if Durant gets hype if he earns it and does not get any special treatment. Thats what I hated about Lebran James.

Overall I thought the calls were getting better over the years. Back in the 80's it was so obvious that they wanted to get Boston and LA in the Finals.

Not being a sports gambler point spreads is something that I never thought about. Its very upsetting that the sport was compromised in that fashion and like many of you I cannot buy the other refs claims that they knew nothing about it.

The refs also need to be taken down a peg. They should not be allowed to strut around handing techs out whenever they feel like it. Their personal bias to other players/teams is also something that should no longer be tolerated.

Looks like Donaghy also bet on games he didn't officiate in knowing the dislikes and favoritisms of other refs. IMO he's not the lone bad apple...he just happened to get caught because he did it more than the others.

NEW YORK -- Former NBA referee Tim Donaghy bet on about 14 games he officiated in the 2006-07 season, Assistant U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Goldberg said in a letter filed Friday in Brooklyn Federal Court.

"In the Spring of 2003, Donaghy provided picks for games he refereed on only 2-3 occasions," Goldberg wrote. "Over the next three full seasons (2003-2004, 2004-2005, and 2005-2006), however, Donaghy bet on numerous games that he worked.

"The government's investigation revealed that Donaghy provided picks for anywhere from 30 to 40 such games for each of those three seasons. During the 2006-2007 season, Donaghy bet on approximately 30 games, including about 14 games that he refereed."
ESPN - Donaghy bet on games he worked in '06-07 season, feds say - NBA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3400551)

Don' must've had it down to a science.
Just a little too cocky. Should've invited Stern.

Donaghy's attorney filed another letter with the court stating that ...that relationships among officials, coaches and players "affected the outcome of games... Donaghy told investigators about the gambling activities of other NBA officials and about a referee that passed "confidential" information to an unidentified coach...

Of course, NBA is denying that there's any merit to it. I wonder if there's any truth to that or just a desperate attempt by Donaghy to avoid the prison term.

ESPN - Attorney drops bombshell accusations, argues for probation for Donaghy - NBA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3404607)

By how many points do you think a severely corrupt ref could change a game and not get caught?

Say the Pistons beat the Celtics 90 to 89 with fair calls.

"The remarks by NBA president Joel Litvin were unfortunate and ill-advised," Lauro said in a statement released Tuesday. "Rather than seeking to implement much-needed reforms, the NBA has chosen instead to attack the messenger. Following a thorough and exhaustive investigation, federal law enforcement officials have concluded that Tim provided honest and trustworthy assistance to them."I wonder if the US attorney's office is keeping a lid on the whole thing until after the Finals...afterall, they didn't release the Donaghy stuff until after the season ended last year and now, Donaghy's sentencing is scheduled to occur after the Finals. This could be an interesting post-season.

This is what happens when you have a strong mind ref.

Not sure if this was posted, skimmed through the thread quick

Ex-referee Tim Donaghy blows whistle on NBA dirty secrets (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/2008/06/10/2008-06-10_exreferee_tim_donaghy_blows_whistle_on_n.html)


Donaghy, who pleaded guilty in Brooklyn Federal Court (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Brooklyn+Supreme+Court) to charges of betting on games he officiated, told FBI agents (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation) “league officials would tell referees that they should withhold calling technical fouls on certain star players because doing so hurt ticket sales and television ratings," the document said.

Donaghy claims he was told that two refs who were “company men” acting in the interest of the NBA conspired to extend a playoff series in 2002 to a seventh game.

The referees allegedly ignored flagrant fouls committed by the team that needed to win. They also reportedly called "made-up fouls" against the other team which led to the ejection of two of their players. The team favored by the refs won that night and the next game to win the series


Lakers/Kings 2002 WCF Game 6 ?

ESPN picked up the story and added some in.

ESPN - Donaghy letter to court alleges refs altered games - NBA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401)

Duh.........

Well, if there was ever a series that was fixed, that one certainly qualifies.

I wish they could prove it and strip away the Lakers ship..........:MusicBigGrin:

Wow, this is huge.

Donaghy has just given inspiration (if not substance) to all of the people claiming conspiracy.

This is definitely huge. Too huge to be mentioned on BSPN/NBA.com. Watch. It will be ignored. Why would Donaghy lie about this? Perjury is a crime.

This is definitely huge. Too huge to be mentioned on BSPN/NBA.com. Watch. It will be ignored. Why would Donaghy lie about this? Perjury is a crime.

I don't think he is lying. Right now he faces 33 months but in reality would do what 8-12 mo's. Not exactly a life sentence and certainly far less than he would get if he was leading everyone on.

Interesting to see how much light this gets.

I told you all they had to do was hint. ;~']