Please direct any replies to this poll to the Refs Betting on Games? thread to keep the commentary on this issue in one place.

Disclaimer:
At this point, the accusations against Donaghy are only allegations and not yet proven in court. The poll choices are from my personal conjecture and have no basis in fact.

This poll is private.

The league office!

Can there be any question? The buck stops there...don't it?

The "league office" has been more concerned about what types of clothes inactive players are wearing than they have to maintaining the integrity of the game.

Don't even try to tell me that Stern didn't know about this issue before now. The "almighty" Stern? He knew. So let the cover-up begin.

Do you mean others are involved in this incident, or others are involved although not necessarily in this particular case?

The NBA has the most intensive after game referee analysis of any sport. Yet they couldn't notice this guy throwing games? They don't notice Shaq's chargesor DWades ticky tack fouls?

NBA is corrupt, from top to bottom. Especially top, Mr. D. Sterns.

Do you mean others are involved in this incident, or others are involved although not necessarily in this particular case?Take your pick...I'm open to both scenarios.

The NBA was so busy "over officiating" games, a guy trying to tweak the system would be free to operate a points shaving operation based on late game free throws and technicals.

Either the system is so broken a guy can hide within it or it is part of a much larger conspiracy.

It's easy to hide a thief in the Thieves Guild.

The league office!

Can there be any question? The buck stops there...don't it?

The "league office" has been more concerned about what types of clothes inactive players are wearing than they have to maintaining the integrity of the game.

Don't even try to tell me that Stern didn't know about this issue before now. The "almighty" Stern? He knew. So let the cover-up begin.

Do you think that the Pope and the Vatican know about all of these problematic priests and their carrying ons before it became public?

And if the Vatican knew about it, did they condone it by their inaction on the matter, before they were forced to do something by the public pressure exerted on them?

I don't know in either case, which may be a bit naive, but that is where I am at with it.

:hoops:

Here is how I see it...

There were fixed NBA games and nobody could tell them apart from the non-fixed games.

It is a game with so much leeway given to the officials that you can't even tell when they are mob pawns.

Stern starts his damage control!!

Everyone can bet their morning Starbucks and more that Stern has already started to call in some favors on this, Mark Cuban being among those lending a helping hand in damage control.

Notice the nature of the wording here.


NBA referees dealing with questions of credibility
By BRIAN MAHONEY, AP Basketball Writer
July 21, 2007
Suddenly, the occasional bad call doesn't seem like such a big deal.

NBA referees' competency has always been criticized.

(No big deal here this is just the same old criticism of NBA officals)

After three high-profile negative stories in the last three months, the questions have shifted to their credibility.

cred·i·bil·i·ty (krĕd'ə-bĭl'ĭ-tē) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief: “America's credibility must not be squandered, especially by its leaders” (Henry A. Kissinger).
A capacity for belief: a story that strained our credibility.Notice that the definition of credibility does not mention that anything was done wrong. Credibility goes only toward perception of what was done, not what was actually done.



With the FBI investigating Tim Donaghy for allegedly betting on games that he officiated, confidence in the guys blowing the whistles may never have been lower.



Lamell McMorris, leader of the referees' union, said he recognizes the perception of officials has been damaged.


"We are going to work hard to restore the public's trust in the integrity of the officials in the NBA," he said. "We're going to do our part to gain and regain the public trust and confidence and to make sure that this is not the final word regarding how referees are defined in the public eye."
in·teg·ri·ty (ĭn-tĕg'rĭ-tē) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.Again above the issue is just one of perception by the public and perception in moral and ethical issues not legal issues. Moral and ethical issues are a matter of values. In some societies taking graft is a normal way of life. The President having a relationship with someone other than his wife, was not a legal question, but a question of integrity; i.e., in other words a moral and ethical question.

Here the article says that the issue is one of the publics' perception of a moral issue.

But now it's their judgment, not their performance, that needs defending.Judgment needs defending. Not that he did anything wrong. It is just that his judgment when making calls is being questioned.

"Bad apples exist in every barrel," McMorris said. "I've never seen a barrel of apples, grapes, anything, and all of them were in the greatest shape and the most beautifulHere the attempt was to cut off the publics' perception that one than one official could have bad judgment.

In the next quote Stern calls in a bunch of favors with his nemesis Mark Cuban. Of course if Cuban is going to defend the officials and the officiating than clearly this whole thing is over blown


But a defense came Friday from, of all people, Dallas owner Mark Cuban.
Cuban long has been critical of referees, racking up more than $1.4 million in fines, mostly for comments about the officiating. That included a $250,000 hit after Game 5 of the 2006 NBA finals, when Miami had a 49-25 advantage in free throws attempted, with Dwyane Wade (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3708/;_ylt=AgplyZSJfuk_yrHeDTR0ZzqLvLYF) taking as many as the whole Dallas team.


But in a blog entry titled "Calamity as Catalyst - My Vote of Confidence in the NBA", Cuban wrote: "The NBA took a hit today. Behind that hit is a catalyst and opportunity for significant change that could make the NBA stronger than it ever has been. It's a chance to proactively put in place people, processes and transparency that will forever silence those who will question the NBA's integrity."


Cuban declined to discuss what any of those might be, simply saying: "The NBA is fine and will be fine. In fact it will continue to get better" in an e-mail.
NBA players in Las Vegas at USA Basketball minicamp have been advised not to say much about the situation. Carmelo Anthony (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3706/;_ylt=Auwk_6KqoAaQTmEICp1HVPyLvLYF) admitted Friday that the allegations "put thoughts in your head" and could make some "start thinking about things that you probably didn't think about before," but Milwaukee guard Michael Redd (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3442/;_ylt=AqRi9A7yIvmsJsavzDmoBQWLvLYF) said Saturday he didn't believe there was a credibility issue.

"I support our league, I support our referees and I support our players," he said.Here Stern got players to say that not wasn't anything done by the official that was illegal, but why as a player (and who would know better) that even the issue of perception of wrong doing is a bunch of baloney.

Finally


Many officials are highly regarded among players because of their work on the floor. And McMorris expects it to remain that way.


"I think individuals and the public needs to understand that these individuals go out and work hard, they officiate the games to the highest standards and they are men and women of extreme integrity," McMorris said.


"This particular alleged incident is not indicative of the behavior and the demeanor and the personality of the officials in the National Basketball Association."
Not one word in the whole article that something illegal may have been done by one or more officials.

What a crock

:hoops:

Stern starts his damage control!!

Everyone can bet their morning Starbucks and more that Stern has already started to call in some favors on this, Mark Cuban being among those lending a helping hand in damage control.

Notice the nature of the wording here.

Notice that the definition of credibility does not mention that anything was done wrong. Credibility goes only toward perception of what was done, not what was actually done.


Again above the issue is just one of perception by the public and perception in moral and ethical issues not legal issues. Moral and ethical issues are a matter of values. In some societies taking graft is a normal way of life. The President having a relationship with someone other than his wife, was not a legal question, but a question of integrity; i.e., in other words a moral and ethical question.

Here the article says that the issue is one of the publics' perception of a moral issue.

Judgment needs defending. Not that he did anything wrong. It is just that his judgment when making calls is being questioned.

Here the attempt was to cut off the publics' perception that one than one official could have bad judgment.

In the next quote Stern calls in a bunch of favors with his nemesis Mark Cuban. Of course if Cuban is going to defend the officials and the officiating than clearly this whole thing is over blown

Here Stern got players to say that not wasn't anything done by the official that was illegal, but why as a player (and who would know better) that even the issue of perception of wrong doing is a bunch of baloney.

Finally

Not one word in the whole article that something illegal may have been done by one or more officials.

What a crock

:hoops:

Sorry about that. My bad. Here is the link

NBA referees dealing with questions of credibility - NBA - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArNT57l0mIcjIAOzIdWF4.y8vLYF?slug=ap-refereesimage&prov=ap&type=lgns)


:hoops:

There were fixed NBA games and nobody could tell them apart from the non-fixed games.



It wouldn't be hard for an official to fix a game without drawing too much attention. In fact, you wouldn't even have to change the outcome (win vs. loss) of the game, but just ensure the spread was covered. If things started getting too close, you make a 3-seconds call. A ball goes out of bounds, you make sure "your team" gets the possession. A guy is dribbling close to the sideline, you blow the whistle. He stepped out of bounds.

You see this sort of officiating occasionally at lower levels when local referees give the home team a few extra favors.

Do you think that the Pope and the Vatican know about all of these problematic priests and their carrying ons before it became public?

You're comparing Stern to the Pope? Seems to me the Pope has WAY more priests than Stern has refs. Seems to me the Pope has WAY more layers of people between him and the "offenders." I don't recall seeing the Pope sitting in the congregation of the offending Priests, but I do recall seeing Stern sitting in the audience during games. By this logic one could argue the CEO of Enron might not know what his CFO was doing until it became public. I don't see the similarities at all.

One thing I bet is similar between probelmatic priests and the NBA refs is.....there is no such thing as a "lone offender." Now you can BET that!

People, processes and transparency.

I agree with Mark Cuban that this is what is needed. These sound like SYSTEMS to me.

I'm waiting for Lee to show up with his bean-bag proposal so I can actually agree with him on something.

There are now suspicions that more than just one ref is involved. This is getting interesting by a minute.

There are now suspicions that more than just one ref is involved. This is getting interesting by a minute.

And possibly players.

And possibly players.


This could possibly be bigger than the Darko tinted window scandal.

This could possibly be bigger than the Darko tinted window scandal.


Never.

Only if we find out that the refs and players involved smoked three packs a day.

Never.

Only if we find out that the refs and players involved smoked three packs a day.
Including half a pack in the half-time.

You know, on the other hand here's the dilemma. You get the call from mob saying either you fix the games or else. What do you do? You have a family to protect as well. I can't say what I would do. Do you go to the authorities and risk having to be in witness protection for a long time or do you play along risking federal prosecution? The choices are not abundant and realistically you're screwed either way.

You know, on the other hand here's the dilemma. You get the call from mob saying either you fix the games or else. What do you do? You have a family to protect as well. I can't say what I would do. Do you go to the authorities and risk having to be in witness protection for a long time or do you play along risking federal prosecution? The choices are not abundant and realistically you're screwed either way.

So the moral of the story is, don't gamble with high stakes, unless your name is Bond, James Bond that is.

:hoops:

You know, on the other hand here's the dilemma. You get the call from mob saying either you fix the games or else. What do you do? You have a family to protect as well. I can't say what I would do. Do you go to the authorities and risk having to be in witness protection for a long time or do you play along risking federal prosecution? The choices are not abundant and realistically you're screwed either way.

Well he must not be too worried about his family if he is getting ready to drop a dime on whom ever else is involved in this scandal. If I was him I would make a statement to the media saying that I alone was invovled and that I am not talking and that I did not want a deal. That might atleast keep Joey Fingers from paying him a visit or meeting up with a shank in the dinner line in prison.

Fascinating

FOX Sports on MSN - NBA - NBA referee statistics, since 2005-06 (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7047984)

How could this guy not be under league scrutiny prior to the scandal when he is among the leaders in aggressive officiating?

They must be looking at Bavetta pretty close too.

Bavetta sure does look to be whistle happy. Is this time for him to hang it up?

Maybe Stern will announce his resignation in a few minutes.... :fingerscr

WDFN 1130 11:00am


Sports Radio 1130 WDFN The Fan | Detroit (http://www.wdfn.com)

There is a rumor that Bavetta placed a bet on that All-Star foor race between Charles Barkley and himself. The word is that he bet on Barkley and cleaned up.

There is a rumor that Bavetta placed a bet on that All-Star foor race between Charles Barkley and himself. The word is that he bet on Barkley and cleaned up.
:pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :gun1:

How about this:
SLAM ONLINE | » What the Ref Scandal Means for Dwyane Wade (http://slamonline.com/online/2007/07/what-the-ref-scandal-means-for-dwyane-wade/)


Don’t be surprised if Heat guard Dwyane Wade comes out as one of those who winds up paying a price.
Why? Because few players make as much of a living getting to the foul line as Wade, and few have drawn as much high-profile scrutiny as when Wade attempted 97 free throws in leading the Heat over the Mavericks in the six-game 2006 NBA Finals.

Another good article. Really like what the guy wrote here:

Because really, there are huge issues here, especially with officiating. The conventional wisdom is that a foul (or a travel, or a palming violation) could be called on virtually every possession. But if a referee does that, the games are even more unpalatable than they already are. So refs have to pick and choose; they have essentially become stage managers for a television show.

Here's the link to the whole thing:
The NBA is broken, but it's 'fixable' -- themorningcall.com (http://www.mcall.com/sports/all-jones.5961676jul24,0,2092365.column)

I only caught part of the PC. Stern said a couple times that Donaghy was 'rogue ref'...but then at the end qualified it by saying 'from the information we currently have'. Those might not have been his exact words, but that was the gist.

I didn't get to hear any of the Q&A afterward...WDFN didn't broadcast it.

I hope someone had a chance to record it.

They must be looking at Bavetta pretty close too.

Dick Bavetta (born December 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_10), 1939 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939)) is an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) referee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referee) for the National Basketball Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association). As of February 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_8), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006), Bavetta had officiated 2,135 NBA games - a league record for most games officiated.
Bavetta was at the center of controversy in game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_NBA_Finals) between the Utah Jazz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Jazz) and Chicago Bulls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Bulls). In the first half of that game, Jazz guard Howard Eisley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Eisley) made a 3-point shot that replays clearly showed was released before the shot clock expired, but Bavetta mistakenly disallowed the shot.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Bavetta#_note-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Bavetta#_note-4) The call had an impact on the game, as the Bulls won by one point, with Michael Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan) hitting the game winning shot after Jordan scoring over Jazz guard Byron Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Russell).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Bavetta#_note-5)

During the 1980s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s), Bavetta would be forced to officiate an NBA game between the Philadelphia 76ers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_76ers) and Boston Celtics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Celtics) by himself after his partner, Jack Madden, broke his leg in a collision with Celtics' player Dennis Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Johnson). In this game, he, alone, ejected Larry Bird (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird) and Julius Erving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Erving).


During the 2006-07 NBA season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006-07_NBA_season), Bavetta was the referee for a December 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_16), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006-07_NBA_season) game between the New York Knicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Knicks) and Denver Nuggets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Nuggets). The game involved a brawl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knicks-Nuggets_brawl) where all ten players on the court at the time of the altercation were ejected by Bavetta and his officiating crew.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Bavetta#_note-1)

Dick Bavetta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Bavetta)

:hoops:

I only caught part of the PC. Stern said a couple times that Donaghy was 'rogue ref'...but then at the end qualified it by saying 'from the information we currently have'. Those might not have been his exact words, but that was the gist.

I didn't get to hear any of the Q&A afterward...WDFN didn't broadcast it.

I hope someone had a chance to record it.

ESPN - Stern's Donaghy news conference transcript - NBA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2947534)

Not sure what thread we are posting in anymore. Here it is.

Not much substance really. Viewers commented on how uneasy Stern looked, uncharacteristic of his usual demenor.

Kind of seemed to me like he mainly just wants this to go away. Not sure what measuers they will take, or have to take. He was very vague.

We will see.

There is a rumor that Bavetta placed a bet on that All-Star foor race between Charles Barkley and himself. The word is that he bet on Barkley and cleaned up.

I bet Barkley cleanup up too. Why else would he kiss him in the mouth? Uggggh/Shudder!