The New England Patriots have been caught video taping the signal calls of the Jets D in their game this weekend. This is considered a "competitive violation" and can bring various penalties including the possibility of losing "several draft picks".

ESPN - Sources: Goodell determines Patriots broke rules - NFL (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677)

This isn't the first time the Patriots have been accused of cheating.

Do you consider this cheating or just good preparation and strategy? Would losing "several draft picks" be a suitable punishment?

Does this change the way you look at the Patriots organization? Does this diminish their three Super Bowls wins?

What are your thoughts?

What ARE the rules? I figure all play calls on the field/court, audio or visual, in any sport are open to 'the public' during an event. Personally, I draw the line at electronic eaves-dropping. If the Pats had the aid of microphones or tuning in to radio frequencies between the Jets sideline and the upstairs booth...that ain't right in my book.

Mr. Subliminal: Sort of ironic timing for this story in pro sports considering the public's almost forgotten Donaghy issue.

they broke the letter of the law..... saying that every other team breaks the spirit of the law, and probably there are many others that are doing the same thing just arn't getting caught.

The Tuna said it already, if your smart your signals won't be figured out till the game is over and you change them up each game, sure they broke the law but give me a break its not a huge deal unless there going to go out get serious about every teams attempt to steal signals. why do college teams have there back up qb's giving fake calls, why do you see people trying to hide there calls.....

Let's see what the penalty is. That'll determine the seriousness of the infraction. They've been competitive for a long time. Hard for me to knock them when our home team is the Lions..................:yellowprison:<<Brady

It is probably not right using electronics to pick up other team's calls. But, what do the rules say about it? And in any case several draft picks would be way too much a punishment.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game.

This thing irritates me that the Patriots are cheating. I hope the entire league hates them now (ala Yankees). Just because you hate them, though, doesn't mean you're good enough to beat them...

Any penalty to the innocent players would be wrong. [Forfeit the game etc.]
Slam Bill B.
$.5M should get his attention.

Any penalty to the innocent players would be wrong. [Forfeit the game etc.]
Slam Bill B.
$.5M should get his attention.

While I agree that the players on the Pats are more than likely innocent of wrong doing in this, the problem is that their opponents are also innocent, but are penalized by being at a competitive disadvantage in their games. If there were no victims in this, I think a fine would be sufficient, but I feel that in a case like this, assuming they clearly broke league rules, losing draft pick(s) would be a fair punishment.

does anybody really think the patriots are the only team here? they may be the only team with the guts to use a video camera team... but every team is trying to steal the other team signals.

and if cheating makes you so much better lets get some signal stealers for our lions lol

The coach did this, more than likely, without the players knowledge.
This is why there will be a penalty. The Jets were the victim. Taking Draft picks hurts the fans too. [But they're never innocent]
Drill Belilcic only. If it was his idea.

It was for sure without the players' knowledge. Players switch between teams all the time. You can't have them taking that sort of knowledge out of the organization.

I can't believe they didn't use more of a hidden camera.

That is the point of signals though, right? So that the people trying to intercept them can't figure out what they are communicating.

Football is more like war than any other American sport, with the different tactical coordinators, the on-field general (QB), the complexity of the schemes, the opposing fronts, the overhead camera shots, the electronic communications, the ground attack, the aerial attack, and now the spying.

I understand that the Jets head coach, a former assistant to Bellichick, was the stooley. Sounds to me like he should be fined also. If he knew of this wrongdoing back during his tenure, and he didn't come forth then, that makes him an accomplice.............:yellowprison: ...Mangini.........

Nah, that's part of the risk. Why do you think they made Weiss disappear to Notre Dame? :nerd2:

It's only cheating if you get caught. I don't see the Pats losing any Superbowl rings over this.

WCF doesn't even allow cheerleaders, you know the Lions have been at a competitive disadvantage for years playing the role of choir boys.

I'd like to see the Patriots' ownership fined and the team should also lose draft picks. Basically, a message needs to be sent to the rest of the league. It's a shame the Pats fans will have to suffer (loss of draft picks) but they've had it pretty good for a long while now.

Is this a joke? It's alright to photograph every angle of every offensive play that a QB directs and have the info downloaded to a laptop or printed and ready for review before the QB can finish slugging some Gatoraid and sit down. He slaps on a headset and and participates in a conference call with coaches upstairs as they disect the last possesion.

So now it's illegal to corellate the sideline defensive signals with the legally obtained encyclopedia of realtime player movement.

Much ado about nothing.

Is this a joke? It's alright to photograph every angle of every offensive play that a QB directs and have the info downloaded to a laptop or printed and ready for review before the QB can finish slugging some Gatoraid and sit down. He slaps on a headset and and participates in a conference call with coaches upstairs as they disect the last possesion.

So now it's illegal to corellate the sideline defensive signals with the legally obtained encyclopedia of realtime player movement.

Much ado about nothing.


I feel this was about the whole issue.........................

The League has fined Pats coach Bill Belichick the maximum $500,000 fine and the team an additional $250,000. The team will also forfeit their First Round draft pick in 2008 if they make the playoffs this year or their 2nd and 3rd round picks if they don't.

ESPN - Belichick fined $500K for taping Jets' signals - NFL (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3018338)

Wow, that's a pretty steep penalty. Your thoughts?

How was Tim Donaghy involved in this? :stirthepot: :nerd2: :gun1:

How was Tim Donaghy involved in this? :stirthepot: :nerd2: :gun1:Tim was just a bad apple. Stern threw him away and now everything's cool.

Much ado about nothing.

Intentionally breaking the rules of the sport is far from "much ado about nothing". The penalty imposed tonight sends a clear picture that cheating in the NFL will not be tolerated. The commissioner got it right on this one. Good for Goodell. I'm glad he penalized both the team and the coach.

The $.25M against the Pats org. was just to make sure they know they're still ultimately responsible for what goes on in their house.
Bill Bel. did this, he should suffer only. I don't like the draft picks thing because it hurts the innocent team.
But in a way this makes up for the selling and buying of caoches,with draft picks, they did a few years back.

The $.25M against the Pats org. was just to make sure they know they're still ultimately responsible for what goes on in their house.
Bill Bel. did this, he should suffer only. I don't like the draft picks thing because it hurts the innocent team.
But in a way this makes up for the selling and buying of caoches,with draft picks, they did a few years back.
I don't like the draft picks either, but it is a measure to have teams policing their coaches and staff to prevent similar incidents or other violations.

Stoney & Wojo said today that Marinelli noticed the camera in Foxboro last year, asked an official if that was legal and was told "no". They warned the Pats and they stopped using the camera for a little while but then resumed. They also mentioned that the Lions' field-to-booth headsets went out a couple times during drives.

Bill Bel. must be a gluton for punishment. Lord knows the coaches don't offer him adequate stimulus.

The Cowboys' QB Coach, Wade Wilson, who is currently serving a 5 game suspension and was fined $100,000 for violation of the league's substance abuse policy, is questioning why Belichick wasn't suspended.

ESPN - Cowboys' Wilson: Belichick discipline inconsistent - NFL (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472)

I can kind of see his point. I never really thought of a suspension as punishment, but it would make sense. Players and coaches (see the Lions' Naked Wendy's Drive Thru Coach from last year) alike are suspended all the time, so why not Belichick? Wilson was fined nearly a 3rd of his salary, while $500,000 to Belichick is only 12% o his $4.5 million salary.

What are your thoughts? Do you think that Wilson has a point or do you think he's just being a cry baby?

The Cowboys' QB Coach, Wade Wilson, who is currently serving a 5 game suspension and was fined $100,000 for violation of the league's substance abuse policy, is questioning why Belichick wasn't suspended.

ESPN - Cowboys' Wilson: Belichick discipline inconsistent - NFL (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472)

I can kind of see his point. I never really thought of a suspension as punishment, but it would make sense. Players and coaches (see the Lions' Naked Wendy's Drive Thru Coach from last year) alike are suspended all the time, so why not Belichick? Wilson was fined nearly a 3rd of his salary, while $500,000 to Belichick is only 12% o his $4.5 million salary.

What are your thoughts? Do you think that Wilson has a point or do you think he's just being a cry baby?
I think he got a point. I think the commish needs to wake up - you don't take a third of someone's salary as a fine. That's bull. As far as suspension - there's some truth to the fact that many other culprits that broke various rules were suspended, so why not him. I support this guy entirely.

I think the violation is worthy of a suspension. If the evidence is that strong, I suggest at least suspension for the rest of the season. That would send a greater message to the NFL and it's fans than a small checkbook hit to one coach.

Belichick just got re-signed for undisclosed dollars and term. IMO anyone that believes the Pat's ownership wasn't aware of his coaching technique has their head in the sand.

Donaghy got bounced from the league for his infraction. What makes Belichick so special...Super Bowl titles? How legit are they?

Goodell wimped out, just like Stern.

Gambling and video taping are two different things.
Wade W. took the growth hormone for diabetic reasons. Almost legit if you ask me and he doesn't play. Maybe they were worried he would sell it to players.
I think the punishment was too stiff.

Is this a joke? It's alright to photograph every angle of every offensive play that a QB directs and have the info downloaded to a laptop or printed and ready for review before the QB can finish slugging some Gatoraid and sit down. He slaps on a headset and and participates in a conference call with coaches upstairs as they disect the last possesion.

So now it's illegal to corellate the sideline defensive signals with the legally obtained encyclopedia of realtime player movement.

Much ado about nothing.

i totally agree. everything's in public view, what's the big deal?

If they would have bugged the other team's locker room, then I think it would have been a big deal.

What they did is no different than if they would have hired a savant to sit and memorize the other teams signals.

If they would have bugged the other team's locker room, then I think it would have been a big deal.

What they did is no different than if they would have hired a savant to sit and memorize the other teams signals.

The fact is the NFL has specific rule that states that you cannot videotape the other team's signals. A memo went out to all of the teams explaining the rule. Belichick deliberately and blatantly broke an NFL rule. Whether you think it is a good rule or not doesn't matter. The guy tried to cheat and got caught.

There are all sorts of rules. They don't all carry the same penalty when they are violated. The penalty for breaking this rule wasn't spelled out.

So the commish had to make a judgment call for how serious it was.

I'm just saying that I don't think it was that serious.

There are all sorts of rules. They don't all carry the same penalty when they are violated. The penalty for breaking this rule wasn't spelled out.

So the commish had to make a judgment call for how serious it was.

I'm just saying that I don't think it was that serious.When you consider the Pats record since he got there, it looks far more serious.

Here's a few bits from his bio:
One of the hallmarks of Belichick's teams have been their ability to consistently succeed against top competition. The Patriots enter the 2007 season with a record of 22-8 (.733) against playoff teams since the beginning of the 2003 season. In their 38 regular season and playoff games in 2003 and 2004, the Patriots played 23 contests against teams that finished the season with a record of .500 or better. New England recorded a remarkable 22-1 (.957) mark in those games, while the rest of the league was a cumulative 74-182 (.289) against the same squads. In the playoffs, Belichick's Patriots are a perfect 5-0 against teams holding the top seed in their conference.

Belichick's teams have consistently relied on the depth and resiliency of the roster to overcome injuries and setbacks. In 2001, the Patriots opened the season 0-2 before rebounding to win 14 of their next 17 games. In 2003, a 31-0 season-opening setback in Buffalo was answered triumphantly, as the team rebounded to win 17 of the next 18 games despite using 42 different starters (then an NFL record for a division champion). In 2004, injuries were overcome yet again, as the Patriots used 40 different starters, including nine different starters in the secondary. In 2005, New England started 4-4, but went on to claim the AFC East title by using 45 different starters, breaking the NFL record that it had set two years earlier for the most starters by a division champion.

Belichick's Patriots have rarely been rattled and have been able to consistently maintain leads and bounce back following losses. Since 2001, his teams are 62-3 when leading at halftime and are 66-2 when leading after three quarters. Between 2001 and 2004, the Patriots won 38 consecutive games when leading after three quarters and 31 consecutive games when leading at halftime, with both marks setting post-merger NFL records. New England's resiliency was also on display when it went 57 games without losing back-to-back contests from 2002 to 2006, marking the NFL's second longest such streak since 1970.
I'd like to see the Pats stats when trailing at halftime during his regime.

Bill Belichick - Official New England Patriots Biography (http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=coachbio&bio=506)

Is it against the rules to watch the other teams signals without a video camera?

Is it against the rules to watch the other teams signals without a video camera?I say no...but should video review be allowed? I say no again.

I think the rule only stipulates that you can't video tape the other team's signals.

So, the reason that I think it is a dumb rule is because they could have accomplished the same goal, within the rules, if they would have just hire a couple guys to watch the other team's signals and then decode them. The video camera just makes it slightly cheaper to do. But when you consider the payroll of the organization, what is another $100,000 or so to spend on some signal watching goons?

Maybe they should just make it illegal to look in the general direction of the other team's sideline. That would totally eliminate all indiscretion.

There's nothing wrong with looking once. But there's a HUGE difference with recording signals. It could be rewound a 100 times in a short period, compounded by the ability to review video of defensive sets in the plays following.

IMO, it's a dumb rule. But it is a rule non the less. A rule that was clearly explained to all teams. The Pats broke that rule, so they deserve to be punished.

IMO, it's a dumb rule. But it is a rule non the less. A rule that was clearly explained to all teams. The Pats broke that rule, so they deserve to be punished.

I agree that they should be punished. My question is whether or not the penalty was proportional to the violation. 2 first round draft picks is pretty severe.

The video makes it easier to decode, but it is still very possible without it. You just get a couple guys watching and writing down the other team's signals. It would be incredibly easy to then match them to the plays that followed and break them down. I would be surprised if there are not teams doing it exactly that way. And I'd be surprised if the Patriots don't just convert to that method. They will still get the exact same advantage that they have been getting from the video, and it will be legal.

The biggest effect here is that teams are just going to be more aware of their signal calling. They might even throw out some bogus signals to throw the other team off. But at the very least, they are going to have to change them more often.


What if the commish would have fined them $1 Billion and forced them to travel by bus from now on? Wouldn't that send a bigger message?

I agree that they should be punished. My question is whether or not the penalty was proportional to the violation. 2 first round draft picks is pretty severe.
I agree, the punishment was kind of severe for the actions (but it was only 1 first round pick, not 2 and only if they make the playoffs this year, otherwise the penalty is a 2nd and 3rd rounder. Either way, still a hefty penalty).

The video makes it easier to decode, but it is still very possible without it. You just get a couple guys watching and writing down the other team's signals. It would be incredibly easy to then match them to the plays that followed and break them down. I would be surprised if there are not teams doing it exactly that way. And I'd be surprised if the Patriots don't just convert to that method. They will still get the exact same advantage that they have been getting from the video, and it will be legal.
I completely agree, that's why I think it's such a lame rule. They can still have the exact same results, it'll just take more effort to get there. The only issues I even have with it is that they knowingly broke a clear rule despite the fact that it was emphasized recently. It isn't like Belichick wasn't aware of the rule, he blatantly disregarded it. I think that fact combined with the fact that Goodell is trying to make an example of them is the reason for such a high penalty.

Looks like the league isn't happy that the Pats tape was played on Fox.

ESPN - NFL investigating how Fox got Patriots' spy tape - NFL (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3026083)

Again, consider the Pats multi-year record. Belichick's cheating has probably been more impactful on NFL results than Donaghy's impact on the NBA. Belichick walked off with only a wrist slap...complete :bs:

Again, consider the Pats multi-year record. Belichick's cheating has probably been more impactful on NFL results than Donaghy's impact on the NBA. Belichick walked off with only a wrist slap...complete :bs:

You seem to be assuming that the advantage he gained was the primary reason for the great record. What if it only helped by 5%?

Also, if they wouldn't have used video cameras, they would have done it manually and probably achieved the same advantage.

coloyan.com: Witch Hunt against Patriots: But are the Jets also guilty of illegal video taping? (http://coloyan.com/society/s091607)

Just like Stern not interested in more bad officials, NFL doesn't want to dig into this to come up with possibly more teams cheating. That would hurt the ratings.

The land of the free and the home of the lawsuit.

A New York Jets season ticket holder has filed a $184 million class-action lawsuit against the Pats and coach Belichick for "deceiving customers".

"They violated the integrity of the game," Mayer's lawyer, Bruce Afran, told The Associated Press. "This is a way of punishing Belichick and the Patriots."How they came up with the $184 million number:
The two calculated that because customers paid $61.6 million to watch eight "fraudulent" games, they're entitled to triple that amount -- or $184.8 million -- in compensation under the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act and the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act.Apparently this guy has a history of this sort of thing.

Mayer and Afran, who consider themselves public interest lawyers, have been thorns in the side of New Jersey politicians for years, filing lawsuits and demanding investigations to advance their grievances. They are well known in the state but generally have had little success in their causes.

Both have lost bids for elected offices, and Mayer once served as a presidential campaign adviser to Ralph Nader.

Their demand in March for a probe of Gov. Jon S. Corzine's gifts to a former girlfriend was rejected by a federal prosecutor. In 2006, a judge vetoed their effort to block Corzine's appointment of Rep. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., to fill the governor's seat in the U.S. Senate.

They also failed to get a court to order a special election to replace Gov. James E. McGreevey when he resigned in 2004.Fan sues Belichick for $184 million - Sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl/2007/09/28/belichick_fan_092807/)