(Delfino) has to pick it up," Mitchell said yesterday. "I thought Jason and Joey have really been working harder."

Delfino, obtained from Detroit in a summer trade, hasn't shown the attitude Mitchell wants in the only starting spot still up for grabs.


"(I) just want him to be more aggressive. At that three spot, you have to be aggressive. You don't have to be great," the coach said. "We all have limitations, as long as I know a guy's giving me the best he's got, I can accept the rest of it."

TheStar.com | Sports | Forward Delfino drops like a stone on the Toronto Raptors' depth chart (http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/267706)

:hoops:

Too bad for him. If you don't get off to a good start with a new coach and team, you may really limit your chances.

He must've picked up all the bad habits from Pistons.

Mitchell hasn't heard about the "switch" yet.......it's still "off".

must be yet another coach (see: orlando) who cannot see the true potential of our european cast-offs. when will these NBA coaches learn???? sheesh!

Mitchell has never been afraid to use the media to motivate a player.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock into this, not until Delfino's minutes start getting cut. Sam might just be trying to fire him up.

Mitchell has never been afraid to use the media to motivate a player.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock into this, not until Delfino's minutes start getting cut. Sam might just be trying to fire him up.

I would think that just playing the game and his salary would be enough motivation.

On the other hand maybe he is just bored. LOL

:hoops:

Delfino seems to be a very unselfish player. At this point, he should probably get a little more agressive with his own game. Drive more and rebound harder.

Delfino seems to be a very unselfish player. At this point, he should probably get a little more agressive with his own game. Drive more and rebound harder.
Maybe he just doesn't have that "game" that everyone is talking about.

Maybe he just doesn't have that "game" that everyone is talking about.

That would be another possible explanation.

All in all, it looks like Joe won't be drafting any Europeans any time soon.
:stirthepot:

Maybe he is trying to make the players around him better. Could be a personality flaw that he has. Point guard personality and skills in a SG/SF body?

Maybe he is trying to make the players around him better. Could be a personality flaw that he has. Point guard personality and skills in a SG/SF body?
Who said a PG can't be 6'6"? As long as the skills are there.

Who said a PG can't be 6'6"? As long as the skills are there.

He can but it would be hard to get time with Ford on your team. Doesn't seem like any of the coaches he has played for see this as a skill set. Maybe he really isn't any good? Just find it hard to believe after watching some of his highlights.

Doesn't seem like any of the coaches he has played for see this as a skill set.

Pretty good point.

Still, I prefer to reject the consensus reality and substitute my own. :MusicBigGrin:

Delfino for point!!


P.S. Magic was a pretty good point guard a few inches north of 6'6".

Nice game tonight vs the Cadavers

Min 25
Pts 18 (FG 6 of 11 and FT 5 of 5)
Reb 9
Asst 3

NBA - Cleveland Cavaliers/Toronto Raptors Box Score Thursday October 25, 2007 - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2007102528)

:hoops:

Nice game tonight vs the Cadavers

Min 25
Pts 18 (FG 6 of 11 and FT 5 of 5)
Reb 9
Asst 3

NBA - Cleveland Cavaliers/Toronto Raptors Box Score Thursday October 25, 2007 - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2007102528)



Sixteen different players scored for the Raptors. You don't see that every day.

Delfino back on top! expect this rollercoaster all season long.

Sixteen different players scored for the Raptors. You don't see that every day.

Six players scored for the Cavs. You see that more often. :)

Six players scored for the Cavs. You see that more often. :)

I bet that those six didn't include Varejao, Pavlovic or Ferry. LOL

:hoops:

Delfino back on top! expect this rollercoaster all season long.

May be a little simplistic but maybe he just needed the coach to tell him face to face and in no uncertain terms "be aggressive and look to score; you are one of our best players".

Five things that stand out in that box score.
He led the team in:
Minutes (he needs about 25 minutes a game to be effective)
Shots (when is the last time he took that many shots in a game?)
Offensive Rebounds (which means he wasn't spotting up for the 3)
Total Rebounds (bet he led a lot of fast breaks off the defensive end)
and Points.

I would be curious to know who he was guarding on defense?

The more consistent minutes he plays the more consistent he will become.

The thing about Carlos that doesn't show up in the box score is always the intangibles. He's just a positive presence to have on your team, he gets along with his teammates and I think that Sheed really misses Fino. Carlos has said his favorite player growing up was Magic Johnson because of how happy and joyful he played. Sam Mitchell is just a grumpy guy and he has to learn that Carlos is not going to be playing pissed off or angry and his what me worry and laid back demeanor does not mean he's not playing hard. One of the main reasons that Colangelo went out and basically stole Delfino for two measly 2nd round picks is his winning attitude. Since playing professional ball Carlos has always been on winning teams and that's contagious. So I predict that Toronto will have as good a season as the Pistons if not better because of the Fino Factor.

Demeanor counts for a lot when you are trying to make an impression on a coach.

I think that Sheed really misses Fino.



In the final classification of a fino, it is judged on such qualities as cleanness, paleness, dryness, and aroma.
Fino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fino)

:hoops:

He can but it would be hard to get time with Ford on your team. Doesn't seem like any of the coaches he has played for see this as a skill set. Maybe he really isn't any good? Just find it hard to believe after watching some of his highlights.

Was Billups no good? Lots of teams passed on him. Oh, and Flip Saunders, that great talent evaluator, was the last guy to pass up on him - in Minny. The Pistons have made some very bad mistakes the past few years. (And the contract extension for Dyess is the latest.) Someone also said here that Dumars won't be drafting any Europeans anytime soon. Just maybe Dumars has become the problem. You got to draft the best players. Period. Copping attitudes on guys because of where they are from is loser mentality. Dumars did well to draft Delfino, and well to draft Darko. He should believe in himself, realized his choice of coaches is where his problem is, and just do better at that. Keep looking for the best players, wherever they might be.

Was Billups no good? Lots of teams passed on him. Oh, and Flip Saunders, that great talent evaluator, was the last guy to pass up on him - in Minny. The Pistons have made some very bad mistakes the past few years. (And the contract extension for Dyess is the latest.) Someone also said here that Dumars won't be drafting any Europeans anytime soon. Just maybe Dumars has become the problem. You got to draft the best players. Period. Copping attitudes on guys because of where they are from is loser mentality. Dumars did well to draft Delfino, and well to draft Darko. He should believe in himself, realized his choice of coaches is where his problem is, and just do better at that. Keep looking for the best players, wherever they might be.

It is my opinion that you need to find the best players that fit in with your team in more ways than one. At this point in time it appears to me that the Pistons brass is of the opinion that players with primarily an American basketball background fit in better with the team than players with primarily a European basketball background, regardless of where the player is actually from or were they were born.

:hoops:

It is my opinion that you need to find the best players that fit in with your team in more ways than one. At this point in time it appears to me that the Pistons brass is of the opinion that players with primarily an American basketball background fit in better with the team than players with primarily a European basketball background, regardless of where the player is actually from or were they were born.

:hoops:

Oh well, you are getting dangerously close to someone wondering if you think they all need to be the same color as well. For team unity or something? Diversity wins. Not sameness. Carlos Delfino is an American, last I checked. Yes, Argentina is in the America's, not Europe. None of what happened has a darn thing to do with where anyone was from. Just a bad coach not knowing how to play the game, and not recognizing talent. Pure and simple. Its not where they are from, how they get along. None of that matters much. Its can they play the game. Delfino is one heck of a basketball player. People who can't recognize that are simply not very good basketball people. Note, Dumars drafted the guy. His coach would not play him. The blame lies with Flip, the guy who would not play him, not Dumars, the guy who drafted him in the first place.

PS, Arroyo, who many lump in the same category, was is an American too, from Puerto Rico. He even went to Temple, an American college.

Oh well, you are getting dangerously close to someone wondering if you think they all need to be the same color as well. For team unity or something?

I am a fan. I don't make these decisions on who is on the roster and who isn't.

This is just my opinion on what appears to be happening.

I have never even said I agree with what I think is happening.

I once created a thread that pointed out a simple fact and never commented on my initial post on the thread.

I offer no personal opinion on what appears to me is the situation regarding the basketball background on our individual players; i.e. primarily U.S.A trained as opposed to primarily European trained as to whether if this is the case it is good bad, incorrect or irrelevant as to the well being of the team.

Since players of all races come from both European and American basketball backgrounds one can't draw any conclusions regarding racial bias from the fact that all of the Pistons players are from a primarily U.S.A. basketball background.

The fact that all of our players at the current moment happen to be African American is just a fact.

I draw absolutely no conclusions regarding that fact with respect to my comments on European vs U.S.A. basketball background.

It is my opinion that if Joe D. had the opportunity to get a non African American player who would improve the team and his basketball background was from the U.S.A, Joe would acquire that player, on the other hand I believe that regardless of what race a player might be regardless of where he was from or where he was born if that player's basketball background was primarily European he wouldn't do it at this time.

He has done it in the past. Would he do it again in the future. I believe he would if he wanted the team to start playing a more European style game.

Larry Brown installed the American style game with us when he was here. As primary examples of this he tried to convert both Darko and Memet into low post back to basket players. To this day they are still primarily face to basket players which is the European style of play for most big men.

As I posted a number of times, over Brown's long career he gave significant playing time to only a handful of European players. This is because Brown is older and was raised on American basketball before European style was relevant in this country and he refused to change his approach to the game to accommodate the European style of play. The only European that ever played for him a significant number of years was Rik Smits, a center who had a post up game and played more like a U.S.A. trained player than a European trained player.

He was therefore more comfortable coaching players with a basketball background that fit in with his years of experience.

When Flip took over the team, he maintained what Brown instituted and that is why I believe that today the Pistons won't acquire a player with primarily a European basketball background unless Flip decides to change the teams playing style or Joe D. hires a coach who makes that change.

That is all there is to it.

Sorry if you have read other things into my posts and point of view on the subject that just don't exist.

:hoops:

i've noticed the removal of euros from the pistons (and think the african american thing is more coincidence), and i do think it's for a reason. i just think they don't fit in with our players.

lapeapod, i can guarantee sheed does not miss delfino.

honestly, i can't blame dumars if this is on purpose. delfino didn't even bother trying to learn the english language, so how is he supposed to communicate in practice and more importantly, meaningful games? that's a big part of basketball and now it's not an issue on this team.

Well no use crying over spilt milk, Carlos left the Pistons because he wanted to play more minutes. With Detroit, Carlos was going to be Tay's primary back-up and that would net him 15 minutes a game which is not enough for Delfino who feels this year is his make or break year. I disagree respectfully with the poster who said that Carlos never bothered to learn English. In fact Delfino understands English and speaks it pretty well but he's so soft spoken and he has a heavy accent. Delfino is tri-lingual (Spanish, Italian and English) and when Darko was on the team he was even learning to speak a little Croatian to help him communicate with his teammate. In my viewpoint (and yes I'm a big fan of Carlos) his problem is he's way too unselfish a player and will always look to help his team and not pad his stats. There's a reason the Argentinian team did so well at the FIBA tournament, they play such a team game which boasts no superstars just players with all-around skills that do lots of things well. Hmmmm seems that was the Pistons best asset the year they won the championship, every night a different player could step up and lead in a statistical category.

Has Sheed been quoted on whether he misses his favorite bench toy Delfino? Here's a clip from Youtube that sort of indicates that Sheed liked playing with Fino and vice versa.

YouTube - Look at Sheed and Delfino! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDjeJSK6N6k)

I've got NBA League Pass so besides watching the Pistons this year I'll keep my eye on the Raptors because I'm interested in how Delfino pans out with them.

Maybe he is trying to make the players around him better.

That's the problem. He's quite sucessful at this.

I was sure hoping to see tons more of this throughout the upcoming year:

YouTube - Carlos Delfino Dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy-6b9QiS8E)

and a little of this too:

YouTube - Carlos Delfino dunk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bl1AJqbdh0)

Lots of PT for Fino last night. Not many points (7 on 5 shots) but had 6 boards, 2 steals and 2 assists in 30 minutes. Maybe not dropping too much.

12 assists for T.J Ford. Wow.

Nobody on the Raptors had more rebounds than Delfino, who came in off the bench. That really is his forte.

Nobody on the Raptors had more rebounds than Delfino, who came in off the bench. That really is his forte.

I noticed that Big Ben had all of one defensive rebound last night in 38 minutes.

:hoops:

I noticed that Big Ben had all of one defensive rebound last night in 38 minutes.

:hoops:

Think he has only 6 total. That's bad...:doh:

I noticed that Big Ben had all of one defensive rebound last night in 38 minutes.

:hoops:

I watched that game, and he looked a little tired.

Nobody on the Raptors had more rebounds than Delfino, who came in off the bench. That really is his forte.

Perhaps you should compute his forte minute stats.

I watched that game, and he looked a little tired.

Tired in the first game of the year?

Maybe he is getting a bit long in the tooth.

:hoops:

Perhaps you should compute his forte minute stats.

If it wasn't totally nonsensical, I might try that.

Heh Lambs hot did you get to be the Morning Monitor? When I was in school we always had a cute young lady teacher for morning monitor.

:hoops:

Delfino did get those boards, but he was in for 30 minutes and his stats are not really impressive. I am not going to make a judgement based on one game. One can look at this game in two ways - one is that he had solid numbers, didn't turn the ball over, got to the boards, but on the other hand for 30 minutes these numbers are not really impressive. I'd like to see more before I say something.

The surprising thing was that he got that much PT.

Does the coach like him or not?

The surprising thing was that he got that much PT.

Does the coach like him or not?
As I said, it is only one game. Maybe he'll get more confidence with all that playing time and produce at a higher rate? Only time will show.

I'm just referring to the title of this thread. He got about as much playing time as anyone on the team, so how far could have have possibly fallen in the coach's eyes.

I'm just referring to the title of this thread. He got about as much playing time as anyone on the team, so how far could have have possibly fallen in the coach's eyes.
Gotcha.

Delfino did get those boards, but he was in for 30 minutes and his stats are not really impressive. I am not going to make a judgement based on one game. One can look at this game in two ways - one is that he had solid numbers, didn't turn the ball over, got to the boards, but on the other hand for 30 minutes these numbers are not really impressive. I'd like to see more before I say something.

these numbers are impressive for a glue guy. delfino's job is to do the little things. his numbers show that he did that. 7 points, 6 rebounds for a guard, 2 steals and 2 assists are great numbers. he's like the 8th option on offense so i would say his numbers are good.

these numbers are impressive for a glue guy. delfino's job is to do the little things. his numbers show that he did that. 7 points, 6 rebounds for a guard, 2 steals and 2 assists are great numbers. he's like the 8th option on offense so i would say his numbers are good.

Sure thing for the Hall of Fame someday.

The hall of fame is for hacks.

He lead the team in minutes again with 35. Not a bad stat line: 10 points on 4-9 shooting, 6 boards, 4 assists and 4 steals.

He'll do fine there. I think Delfino's has a starter's personality. He's unselfish and lets the game come to him on offense. It didn't work when he needed to make a quick difference off the bench. He seemed comfortable on the Arg team, so he can do it in Tor.

For the CD fans, he was impressive tonight. Impact on the game was a lot more than the stats with his ability to guard VC and RJ, though RJ pretty much abused everyone. Had one nice stretch where he stole the ball from VC, started the fast break, and then was rewarded with the dunk at the end.

What was interesting is how his game is so similar to Tay's. He even played point the last 5 minutes of the game.

The real story here is the ass whooping the Raptors put on the Nets, who still have the big 3.

37 point victory over a team with JKidd?

For the CD fans, he was impressive tonight. Impact on the game was a lot more than the stats with his ability to guard VC and RJ, though RJ pretty much abused everyone. Had one nice stretch where he stole the ball from VC, started the fast break, and then was rewarded with the dunk at the end.

What was interesting is how his game is so similar to Tay's. He even played point the last 5 minutes of the game.

Still some pretty good stats too. Lots of rebounds, steals, and assists. And ten points. And guarded their best players. Played more minutes for his team than anyone despite coming off the bench. Did you know that Delfino was over a plus 50 at one point in the game. How about that stat.

Well, hopefully Delfino in Toronto and Hayes in Detroit will both have productive seasons and play significant roles for each of their teams.

And then the Pistons can administer a beat-down when they meet in the playoffs. :D

Did you know that Delfino was over a plus 50 at one point in the game. How about that stat.

Really?

Did you know that Delfino was over a plus 50 at one point in the game. How about that stat.

Sounds like he should be playing for the Pats and Belicheat.

:hoops:

Really?

No, that was just a quick estimate. But he was a plus 41 from one point in the game to another. You can check the game log on that. (He was a minus 10 in another stretch, before the plus 41. I had not realized that he was in the game during that stretch when I made the estimate.)

I watched both the Raptors first two games and Delfino is definitely making a nice case for himself to play 25-30 minutes every night. In todays Toronto Star there was a nice article about Fino and Mitchell has come around to appreciating the stuff that Carlos brings every night that doesn't necessarily make the box score. Toronto goes 10 deep and they play very much like the Pistons used to play. If the Raptors could start playing some vicious defense they would be a handful because they are going to score 100 points every night with the talented outside shooters they have. Carlos would have been miserable on the Pistons this year so it's all for the best that he went to a team that plays with so many European players. The Pistons have Hayes who reminds me of a cross between Mo Evans and Carlos so Flipper seems pretty happy with his new player. I'm really hoping the Raptors and the Pistons meet each other in the playoffs it would make for an entertaining series.

There are some really interesting points brought up here. Deflino's game being like Tay's. I think there are a few differences here. Tay can be offensive minded when he has to, Deflino seems to be picking his spots. Tay has a humongous height advantage and can guard any position other than center. I would restrict Delfino to 1-2-3. Maybe Delfino's confidence will grow with time he spends at Toronto, but at this point it is nowhere near the confidence with which Tay plays.
As far as 100 points a game - we'll see how they do against better defensive teams. Detroit is not really offensive team and they put 116 on sorry Orlando defense. I think it is too early to make a prognostication like that.

I think that the second unit will score a lot more this year than in the last two years.

Whether that will get us to 100 ppg we will have to wait and see, but I can see us getting a number of 110 point games this year against the defensively challenged teams, especially once Hot Rod returns and AJ starts getting some serious minutes; i.e., 15 a game or so in certain situations.

:hoops:

I'm going to move this thread to the NBA Stuff forum. By all means continue the discussion.

I'm going to move this thread to the NBA Stuff forum. By all means continue the discussion.

Talk about moving threads could we consolidate all of those team preview threads under a thread called "NBA 2007-08 Team Previews".

1. The season has started
2. It is a pain to have to wheel down to the more active NBA threads ever time you want to read or post to a non team preview thread, which will become more frequent than the preview threads as the season goes on.

P.S. I am not suggesting that the consolidated thread should not be a sticky, just that all of the team preview threads be consolidated under one thread.

:hoops:

even if delfino blossoms in toronto, i'd take jarvis over him any day.

even if delfino blossoms in toronto, i'd take jarvis over him any day.

just wait until we need jarvis to defensively when tay gets into foul trouble. delfino is just a much better defender than hayes. jarvis is a better spot up shooter that's it. he doesn't do anything else better than fino.

i cringe everytime i see jarvis dribble the ball.

even if delfino blossoms in toronto, i'd take jarvis over him any day.Delfino only fit in my pre-conception as to what the Pistons should be. Jarvis is a better fit with the way the Pistons are now. This team IS a jump shooting team and Spellcheck and Arvis end up as nice periods to the end of a sentence. Swing swing swing jumper afflalo.

just wait until we need jarvis to defensively when tay gets into foul trouble. delfino is just a much better defender than hayes. jarvis is a better spot up shooter that's it. he doesn't do anything else better than fino.

i cringe everytime i see jarvis dribble the ball.

I am going to wait before I say Delfino is a better defensively. Many times the way players around you play can change the way you play. The Wizards are a bottom 5 defensive team while the Pistons are a top 5.

just wait until we need jarvis to defensively when tay gets into foul trouble. delfino is just a much better defender than hayes. jarvis is a better spot up shooter that's it. he doesn't do anything else better than fino.

i cringe everytime i see jarvis dribble the ball.

Unless AA aka SpellCheck gets hurt I believe that he and not Hayes would take the tough defensive responsibilities at the #3 if Tay was not available.

:hoops:

Delfino only fit in my pre-conception as to what the Pistons should be. Jarvis is a better fit with the way the Pistons are now. This team IS a jump shooting team and Spellcheck and Arvis end up as nice periods to the end of a sentence. Swing swing swing jumper afflalo.

I interrupt this line of thought to let you know what really matters. We gave Delfino away for nothing. It does not matter just who is better than who. What matters is whether or not Delfino is or is not a very good player. Me, I say he is, and we gave him away to Toronto for very little in return.

Which leads logically to Afflalo. Somebody decided to start Afflalo in the first two games. Just maybe somebody has tired of giving talented players away.

Whether Delfino is the perfect fit for the Pistons or not, we certainly should have played him a lot more last year. Then, if we decided to trade the guy, it would have been for a decent player in return, not two future 2nd round draft picks.

Now, with the important stuff said, I guess just to kill time I will give my opinion about whether Hayes fits the team better than Delfino. No. We will see that as the year goes on, and we see faster small forwards playing for the other team. Not to mention Hayes can't guards any shooting guards at all.

But wait, Afflalo seems to be a pretty solid defender, so at least we have someone who can guard shooting guards. And perhaps some quicker, but smaller, small forwards. And for the quicker tall ones, hey, we have Amir Johnson. Between the three players, we should be able to get by without Delfino.

I interrupt this line of thought to let you know what really matters. We gave Delfino away for nothing. It does not matter just who is better than who. What matters is whether or not Delfino is or is not a very good player. Me, I say he is, and we gave him away to Toronto for very little in return.

Which leads logically to Afflalo. Somebody decided to start Afflalo in the first two games. Just maybe somebody has tired of giving talented players away.

Whether Delfino is the perfect fit for the Pistons or not, we certainly should have played him a lot more last year. Then, if we decided to trade the guy, it would have been for a decent player in return, not two future 2nd round draft picks.

Now, with the important stuff said, I guess just to kill time I will give my opinion about whether Hayes fits the team better than Delfino. No. We will see that as the year goes on, and we see faster small forwards playing for the other team. Not to mention Hayes can't guards any shooting guards at all.

But wait, Afflalo seems to be a pretty solid defender, so at least we have someone who can guard shooting guards. And perhaps some quicker, but smaller, small forwards. And for the quicker tall ones, hey, we have Amir Johnson. Between the three players, we should be able to get by without Delfino.

Lee, this really matters to you, not necessarily to the others here. And in case you have forgotten, here's a quick reminder: Amir was a second round pick.

Have a nice day.

Lee, this really matters to you, not necessarily to the others here. And in case you have forgotten, here's a quick reminder: Amir was a second round pick.

Have a nice day.

I thought of that too, but I am not so sure that that is a good retort to Lee's point because AJ was the last high school player drafted. High school guys can no longer be drafted.

That means that it will be pretty rare, though it does happen, that a team is able to get someone with Delfino's ability with a middle to late second round pick because college guys rarely slip through the cracks. Though the odds of course of finding someone who will become pretty good goes up as your second round pick moves toward the top the second round. However, with the Raptors playing as well as they are and with a lot of pretty young talent it doesn't appear to me that our picks from them will amount to much of anything, probably on the level of Sammy Mejia, whose game ironically Lee likes .

It appears to me that Hayes is a far better fit for us than Delfino because our second unit since Flip has been here has had a big problem scoring. Delfino was a second unit luxury that we could not afford. #2 and #3 are usually your better scoring positions and Delfino was not carrying the load in that regard.

The Starters played so many minutes because if too many were taken out at once our offense came to grinding halt, even with Delfino on the court.

With Hayes that will happen a lot less as he can get his shot off pretty much as he pleases. The only problem there is he will have some games when his shooting is ice cold, but that happens with all players.

I like him better than Delfino because Hayes goes a long way toward making our second unit a viable offensive threat, which it was not when Delfino was here.

:hoops:

I thought of that too, but I am not so sure that that is a good retort to Lee's point because AJ was the last high school player drafted. High school guys can no longer be drafted.

That means that it will be pretty rare, though it does happen, that a team is able to get someone with Delfino's ability with a middle to late second round pick because college guys rarely slip through the cracks. Though the odds of course of finding someone who will become pretty good goes up as your second round pick moves toward the top the second round. However, with the Raptors playing as well as they are and with a lot of pretty young talent it doesn't appear to me that our picks from them will amount to much of anything, probably on the level of Sammy Mejia, whose game ironically Lee likes .

It appears to me that Hayes is a far better fit for us than Delfino because our second unit since Flip has been here has had a big problem scoring. Delfino was a second unit luxury that we could not afford. #2 and #3 are usually your better scoring positions and Delfino was not carrying the load in that regard.

The Starters played so many minutes because if too many were taken out at once our offense came to grinding halt, even with Delfino on the court.

With Hayes that will happen a lot less as he can get his shot off pretty much as he pleases. The only problem there is he will have some games when his shooting is ice cold, but that happens with all players.

I like him better than Delfino because Hayes goes a long way toward making our second unit a viable offensive threat, which it was not when Delfino was here.

:hoops:

There are other issues at hand. Pistons still need to incorporate AA, Hot Rod, and Amir into rotation. Pistons will have another first round pick and that player will need some playing time too. Delfino just wasn't meant to be here and with what he's shown it was nearly impossible to get more.

i haven't seen anything to suggest that hayes is a poor defender, or any better or worse than delfino.

We gave up Delfino for 2 2nd round picks and acquired Hayes for a good price.
Delfino. Hayes. Hayes. Delfino. I'm not going to get into who is better. The bottom line is that we got someone to play the same position...for the same price...roughly the same minutes...and 2 2nd round picks.

In Toronto, Delfino will have a different role. Its unfair to say that we could have used the Raptors Delfino this year because those opportunities are not here. We would have continued with mild mannered Pistons Delfino until his contract was up and he went elsewhere.

I'm totally happy with 2 2nds. Joe can't pick other GM's pockets and have Kander rub mango extract on their careers anymore. We're looking at a d-league/ international farm system with Samb, Amir, Acker and we would have done the same with fesenko if we could have gotten him.

Lee, this really matters to you, not necessarily to the others here. And in case you have forgotten, here's a quick reminder: Amir was a second round pick.

Have a nice day.

Its too bad that you don't care about the team getting better, which won't happen too readily with the GM giving players away routinely. Sure, I hope this has stopped now, but me, I am going to be on the watch for more of this charity Dumars has been running. Its starts with not playing young talented players, and ends in trading them away for cap space reasons. That Afflalo got the two starts does help reassure me a bit at least that this charitible organization is in danger of going out of business. I will keep watching, being vigilant. I hope you will join in caring.

There are other issues at hand. Pistons still need to incorporate AA, Hot Rod, and Amir into rotation. Pistons will have another first round pick and that player will need some playing time too. Delfino just wasn't meant to be here and with what he's shown it was nearly impossible to get more.

Sorry. I do not not understand your response at all. What does your response above have to do with your comment to Lee that AJ was a second round pick?

The way I understand your comment you were arguing Lee's point that we did not get anything for Delfino by saying that we got two second round picks for him and that AJ is a second round pick therefore we got a lot for Delfino and just didn't give him away.

I responded by disagreeing with your comment by saying that AJ was an exceptional find for a second round pick and most likely we won't be able to find anyone of his caliber with a future second round pick therefore we did give Delfino away for basically nothing.

Then we go out and replace him with Hayes and you retort that we gave Delfino away so that we could incorporate AJ, Hot Rod and AA into the rotation.

How does replacing Delfino with Hayes help to better incorporate AJ, Hot Rod and AA into the rotation when Hayes is a better fit for our team and will get more minutes for us than Delfino did?

:hoops:

Lee, this really matters to you, not necessarily to the others here. And in case you have forgotten, here's a quick reminder: Amir was a second round pick.

Have a nice day.

Buddah? :)

Sorry. I do not not understand your response at all. What does your response above have to do with your comment to Lee that AJ was a second round pick?

The way I understand your comment you were arguing Lee's point that we did not get anything for Delfino by saying that we got two second round picks for him and that AJ is a second round pick therefore we got a lot for Delfino and just didn't give him away.

I responded by disagreeing with your comment by saying that AJ was an exceptional find for a second round pick and most likely we won't be able to find anyone of his caliber with a future second round pick therefore we did give Delfino away for basically nothing.

Then we go out and replace him with Hayes and you retort that we gave Delfino away so that we could incorporate AJ, Hot Rod and AA into the rotation.

How does replacing Delfino with Hayes help to better incorporate AJ, Hot Rod and AA into the rotation when Hayes is a better fit for our team and will get more minutes for us than Delfino did?

:hoops:
What I am saying is that Pistons have enough players and picks to last a while. There is no need to bring in more rookies. That's all I am saying.

Delfino's stats after 4 games:

Min 31.3
Pts 7.8
FG% .379
Rbs 4.5
Stl 2.0
Ast 2.3
TO .75

I am not impressed at all.

It's not that bad. His effective FG% is .483 (virtually the same as Billups). His 40% 3-point shooting is the reason.

The main reason that they are +6 with him on the floor is that they are winning the rebounding and turnover battle... until Bosh vanished. They are actually allowing almost 60% shooting by the other teams and are still beating them.

It's not that bad. His effective FG% is .483 (virtually the same as Billups). His 40% 3-point shooting is the reason.

The main reason that they are +6 with him on the floor is that they are winning the rebounding and turnover battle... until Bosh vanished. They are actually allowing almost 60% shooting by the other teams and are still beating them.

He is also third on the team in rebounds and assists. This just shows that given the minutes that he keeps hustling and is looking to make plays for the TEAM.

Would be interesting to see what effect his defense had on the player he was guarding.

Would be interesting to see what effect his defense had on the player he was guarding.

They have that data. So far it isn't pretty for Carl.

Carlos Delfino of the Toronto Raptors, stats by playing position from 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR4C.HTM)

He has played most of his minutes at the SF position with SG second and a very small amount as the PG.

So far, his man is lighting him up big time. They shoot and eFG of > 1.000 at the SG position and .583 at the SF. They are also getting inside on 33% of their shot attempts.

The lone bright spots are that Delfino is outrebounding them slightly and has a huge turnover differential over them.

My biggest concern with Delfino's play is that it takes him over 30 min/game to get those numbers. I know it is early into the season and I don't want to make a big deal out of statistics yet. Also, I don't think it is fair to single him out as allowing opponents to score. A lot has to do with overall team defense and looks like Toronto is not there yet. Carlos, even being a great defender, won't be able to cover for 3-4 others on the court. And the guy he usually subs for couldn't spell the word Defense if his life depended on it.

My biggest concern with Delfino's play is that it takes him over 30 min/game to get those numbers. I know it is early into the season and I don't want to make a big deal out of statistics yet. Also, I don't think it is fair to single him out as allowing opponents to score. A lot has to do with overall team defense and looks like Toronto is not there yet. Carlos, even being a great defender, won't be able to cover for 3-4 others on the court. And the guy he usually subs for couldn't spell the word Defense if his life depended on it.

you should watch some games. if you want to see how fino is really doing. the impact he has on the game simply doesn't show up on the stat book except maybe in rebounds. stats just simply don't tell the whole story.

Toronto Raptors team performance by position for the 2006-2007 season from 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR5.HTM)

If you look at the Raptors overall, they are weakest at the SG and SF position. They produce the least from those spots and their opponents are the most productive from those positions against them.

The Pistons are pretty dominant across the positions with SG being the only weak spot so far, presumably due to Rip's absence.
Detroit Pistons team performance by position for the 2006-2007 season from 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0708/0708DET5.HTM)

We are dominating the C position on defense!

Two 2nd rounders is turning out to be a fair price. Not a fleecing, but a fair price. If we had not traded Delfino, he would probably be occupying Dupree's spot on the roster. Then there could be yet another reason to hate FlipS.

you should watch some games. if you want to see how fino is really doing. the impact he has on the game simply doesn't show up on the stat book except maybe in rebounds. stats just simply don't tell the whole story.

I agree. Delfino's impact cannot be measured.

Toronto lost again. Delfino with 5pts and 4rbs in only 23 min.

Toronto lost again. Delfino with 5pts and 4rbs in only 23 min.

Like someone just said, try watching the games. Then you would know that Delfino was guarding Lewis, and doing so quite well. Delfino made himself quite valuable in this game. The main problem Toronto is having right now is that Delfino should be starting, and their coach ain't figured it out yet. Good defense is a reason to start someone. A very good reason.

you should watch some games. if you want to see how fino is really doing. the impact he has on the game simply doesn't show up on the stat book except maybe in rebounds. stats just simply don't tell the whole story.

It probably is too early into the season to see his full impact. He is learning a new system and playing with new guys. Maybe his stat sheet will look more appealing after 25-30 games (minus the games he plays us).

He is probably getting paid in Canadian dollars, so he go shop in Buffalo on his off days and have some change left over.

All these guys that are playing for Toronto their salaries keep going up almost daily vs their American counterparts. That's a great bonus for the guys that play in Canada near the Canadian/American border.

:hoops:

you should watch some games. if you want to see how fino is really doing. the impact he has on the game simply doesn't show up on the stat book except maybe in rebounds. stats just simply don't tell the whole story.

i might actually agree with you, it looks like he's doing a great job impacting the raptors so that they lose basketball games :)

We gave up Delfino for 2 2nd round picks and acquired Hayes for a good price.

Washington let a high first rounder walk without getting a thing in return. At least we got a couple picks for our late first rounder.

We exchanged Delfino for Hayes and two second rounders. Certainly a better deal than Washington got - although they may not care. It remains to be seen whether it's a better deal than Toronto got.

Washington let a high first rounder walk without getting a thing in return. At least we got a couple picks for our late first rounder.

We exchanged Delfino for Hayes and two second rounders. Certainly a better deal than Washington got - although they may not care. It remains to be seen whether it's a better deal than Toronto got.
Can't compare Detroit deal and Toronto deal. Hayes fits Detroit system, Deflino didn't. On the other hand, Delfino fits Toronto system quite a bit better.

Like someone just said, try watching the games. Then you would know that Delfino was guarding Lewis, and doing so quite well. Delfino made himself quite valuable in this game. The main problem Toronto is having right now is that Delfino should be starting, and their coach ain't figured it out yet. Good defense is a reason to start someone. A very good reason.
Please re-read what I wrote. I didn't give any description of Deflino's game - just some (not all) of his numbers.

Have a nice day.
:hoops:

Luckily for me, I watch every single NBA game, so I'm qualified to comment on them.

My 4 dual tuner DVR's and 3x3 grid of plasma TV's combined with League Pass makes it all possible. Also, I fast forward through free throws, commercials, and most of the transition game.

Luckily for me, I watch every single NBA game, so I'm qualified to comment on them.

My 4 dual tuner DVR's and 3x3 grid of plasma TV's combined with League Pass makes it all possible. Also, I fast forward through free throws, commercials, and most of the transition game.

Yeah, but you really need to watch each game at least twice. Better yet, just send an email to Chris McCoskey and ask him about Delfino. Chris is a serious journalist and he went to college and everything.

Please re-read what I wrote. I didn't give any description of Deflino's game - just some (not all) of his numbers.

Have a nice day.
:hoops:

Yeah, I read it again. It starts out "Toronto lost again." How do you expect me to take it other than a jab at Delfino?

Yeah, I read it again. It starts out "Toronto lost again." How do you expect me to take it other than a jab at Delfino?
Don't try to read between the lines here. I just merely stated the fact. Toronto is 2-3 on the season and it wasn't their first loss. And in my opinion Delfino is not going to make or break the Raptors. He maybe a piece, but not more than that.

Don't try to read between the lines here. I just merely stated the fact. Toronto is 2-3 on the season and it wasn't their first loss. And in my opinion Delfino is not going to make or break the Raptors. He maybe a piece, but not more than that.
Delfino's problem is that no one the Raptor's plays any defense. As for his value, all you need to know is that at the end of every game, he guarding the opponent's best player. So far he has drawn VC, Paul Pierce, Rashard Lewis, Iguodala, and Mike Redd.

As far as Hayes is concerned, he is a poor man's Kapono, a perfect fit for Detroit since his lack of D isn't a concern when you have JMax and Rasheed on the floor.

Delfino's problem is that no one the Raptor's plays any defense. As for his value, all you need to know is that at the end of every game, he guarding the opponent's best player. So far he has drawn VC, Paul Pierce, Rashard Lewis, Iguodala, and Mike Redd.

As far as Hayes is concerned, he is a poor man's Kapono, a perfect fit for Detroit since his lack of D isn't a concern when you have JMax and Rasheed on the floor.
I already talked about Paptors lack of defense in one of my previous posts. Hayes is not as pure a shooter as Kapono is, but he's better in all other aspects of the game - he can post, he can defend quite a bit better and he's a better rebounder.

Role players are often given as much time as they need on the court to try and come back in a game and then Mitchell will begin cautiously re-inserting starters, trying not to upset the improved production. Carlos Delfino actually leads the team (by far) in minutes per game right now at 31.5. Now, while his play has been a nice addition to the team to be sure, something is wrong when he is playing more minutes than not only Bosh and Bargnani, but of Anthony Parker, the man he replaces when he comes in the game.


TSN : NBA - Canada's Sports Leader (http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story/?ID=222343&hubname=nba)

Like someone just said, try watching the games. Then you would know that Delfino was guarding Lewis, and doing so quite well. Delfino made himself quite valuable in this game. The main problem Toronto is having right now is that Delfino should be starting, and their coach ain't figured it out yet. Good defense is a reason to start someone. A very good reason.

Why would it matter if he starts if he is already playing more minutes than any of the starters? And don't tell me it's psychological. His countryman in SA does just fine with the ego-check.

Why would it matter if he starts if he is already playing more minutes than any of the starters? And don't tell me it's psychological. His countryman in SA does just fine with the ego-check.

You make a good point. Two years ago the excuse for Delfino's inconsistant and ineffective play was that he didn't play regularly.

Last year he played every single game, so the excuse for his inconsistant play was that he needed to play more than the 17 minutes a game that he averaged.

Now, Delfino is averaging almost 30 minutes a game, and is 2nd only to Chris Bosh for the most minutes on the team. So now the excuse is that he needs to start to be effective.

The bar keeps moving.

Coaches know best right? If he is getting the most playing time, it is because he is the best player. That is what I've always been told.

You make a good point. Two years ago the excuse for Delfino's inconsistant and ineffective play was that he didn't play regularly.

Last year he played every single game, so the excuse for his inconsistant play was that he needed to play more than the 17 minutes a game that he averaged.

Now, Delfino is averaging almost 30 minutes a game, and is 2nd only to Chris Bosh for the most minutes on the team. So now the excuse is that he needs to start to be effective.

The bar keeps moving.

Don't think he needs to start. Just think he needs to get to know his teammates. He is the new kid on the block and needs to figure out where he fits in with this new system.

Why would it matter if he starts if he is already playing more minutes than any of the starters? And don't tell me it's psychological. His countryman in SA does just fine with the ego-check.

Its pretty simple actually to answer your question. Are you sure you can't figure it out yourself? You can't think of a reason to start someone who is playing over 30 minutes a game? Give it a try, let me know if you really can't figure it out.

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for rhetorical effect rather than to receive an answer. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be.

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for rhetorical effect rather than to receive an answer. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be.

Have you been taking posting lessons from Pass? LOL

:hoops:

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for rhetorical effect rather than to receive an answer. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be.

Its not a rhetorical question when what I might answer is not certain. No way I believe this person thought the answer was certain. I got to give the poster some credit at least.

Decent stat line for Fino again tonight. except points. Had 7 points, 9 boards, 2 assists and 2 steals in just about 30 minutes. Only took 4 shots and they were all treys.

I saw the end of the game. He missed 3 out of 4 FTs when they were trying to clinch it, though he did also get a key rebound and made a smart play by giving a foul in the backcourt when they were up 3 in the last few seconds.

Give the poster credit? You're responding to him like he's 5 years old.

Nevertheless, the subject of this thread put in a nice effort tonight.

9 boards. Hit a pair of 3's back to back. Played some fundamentally sound D. Bosh led the team with 10 boards, but that was with a lot more PT.

Who would have thought that Mitchell would be so smitten with Delfino right off the bat?

Give the poster credit? You're responding to him like he's 5 years old.

Nevertheless, the subject of this thread put in a nice effort tonight.

9 boards. Hit a pair of 3's back to back. Played some fundamentally sound D. Bosh led the team with 10 boards, but that was with a lot more PT.

Who would have thought that Mitchell would be so smitten with Delfino right off the bat?

Hey, I always say aim high. Anyway, yes, Delfino did miss some free throws. He came on early in the 3rd quarter because his team basically ain't none too good with him not on the floor. And his coach wisely played him the rest of the game. Delfino makes all the plays work, never caring for a moment about his own stats, gets the rebounds, guards their toughest offensive player, and hey, even does windows I hear. It also helped that he made two consecutive 3's at one point.

Now, as good as he is, playing exhausted a good deal of the time, just imagine how he could be if:

1) he got some shots. Especially right after shoot a round before the game starts and during halftime.

2) he got some rest each half instead of being called upon to play these very long stretches with no rest.

3) his coach could recognize how valuable he is to his offense and let him play the guard position more.

But hey, all this is nit-picking to some extent. In all, I was very entertained watching Delfino continually break down the opponents defense every time Toronto did let him touch the ball, and quite amused at the ineptness Toronto showed thruout the game when they tried to do anything with the ball while not involving Delfino. Eventually, Toronto's coach will learn, I am sure.

I watched the 1st half of Bulls-Raps game. Looked like Delfino had no function in the offense. He never got the ball except for one long half-court pass when he took off after Chicago's missed shot and beat his man down the court. He played solid D, hit the boards, but looked like an accessory on the offense. He couldn't create on his own when he tried. I know he ended up with 16 points, but I didn't watch the second half, so I'm only describing what I saw in the 1st.

16 pts and 7 rebounds in 19 minutes. nice.

16 pts and 7 rebounds in 19 minutes. nice.

Not sure, but Delfino is Toronto's leading rebounder so far this season. Have to check the stats.

As for someone missing the stuff Delfino did in the first half, some of it was kind of hard to see, but some of it was obvious as can be. Just how closely was that person watching I wonder.

For sure though, there is still a ton more Delfino could be doing if his coach started him, as a guard. I am critical of the Toronto coach for not involving Delfino more, so I can't disagree with someone who sees the same thing, a small role for Delfino in the offense. The only difference, hey I say its small as compared to where it should be. I catch a lot of stuff Delfino does, since my hobby is after all studying game film.

looks like bosh is still leading the RPG cat but Delfino was leading the SPG cat at 1.6 per game.

Now that is respect. Delfino got 20 minutes in this game. But he did not play garbage time. That honor was reserved for Kapono, a starter for Toronto. While Delfino rested with the starters. I like that.

33 minutes, 24 points (9-of-14 FG), 8 boards tonight.

For the season:
25.6mpg, 9.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 1.3apg, 1.1spg, 0.75topg (44.3% FG, 43.5% 3FG)

Another one bites the dust. Next up... Amir Johnson

33 minutes, 24 points (9-of-14 FG), 8 boards tonight.

For the season:
25.6mpg, 9.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 1.3apg, 1.1spg, 0.75topg (44.3% FG, 43.5% 3FG)

Another one bites the dust. Next up... Amir Johnson

His averages and Hayes are pretty comprable considering that the minutes each one plays. However, the Pistons don't give a damn about youth. Their opinion is "screw them," let them come back when they are about 30 and know how to play.

SCREW DETROIT'S COACHES, they are killing the future of the team. You can't continue to expect that veteran FA pickup will get you through as your core continues to age. This team won't have much of a future if they don't start utilizing their draft picks in a productive manner.

33 minutes, 24 points (9-of-14 FG), 8 boards tonight.

For the season:
25.6mpg, 9.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 1.3apg, 1.1spg, 0.75topg (44.3% FG, 43.5% 3FG)

Another one bites the dust. Next up... Amir Johnson

I know I have mentioned this before. But it still matters so here goes: Delfino only played twice in this game. He is not starting. To get all the mintues he did, means he came on very early in the 3rd quarter and played the rest of the game.

Early in the 4th, Toronto went up 20, chiefly behind some hot shooting by Delfino. Delfino was 9 for 11 at that point. He missed some shots down the stretch to make his stats look human, but hey, he was getting quite tired when he took those last few shots.

I have watched Delfino repeatedly get played like this, and repeatedly get tired in the 11th thru 16th minutes(and like last night, the 18th minute) of a stint on the floor. Delfino is the 3rd highest minutes guy on his team because his coach understands just how valuable he is. Why he is not starting Delfino is certainly a mystery to me. Obviously, if Delfino has a few more nights like last night, that will change.

Just got to add that I've watched Delfino a lot now that he's playing for the Raptors and it took Sam Mitchell quite awhile to figure out that Fino is a laid back personality both on and off the court but he still gives you energy and that X-factor that every team needs. I think the Pistons are missing that piece and maybe Joe will go out and get it before the trading deadline, otherwise it's going to be a long season for the Pistons.

Carlos was offered a contract by Toronto before the deadline and he turned it down because this will be one of his few opportunities in his career to have control of his destiny. He told the Raptors to hold off and let him just play out this year because he wanted to earn his next contract so good for him. It doesn't matter to Carlos if he starts he wants to be a part of the rotation and play solid minutes. I read the Raptors boards and slowly but surely Carlos is picking up his own fan base and becoming a fan favorite. I had him pencilled in for Most Improved Player this year and he's certainly in the running for that.

Delfino is the 3rd highest minutes guy on his team because his coach understands just how valuable he is.

They understood that too here in Detroit. That is why Joe D. drafted him. Unfortunately Joe. D. did not realize that Delfino did not fit in with the Pistons and the rest as they say is history.

The Pistons have very very few chemistry problems among the players and that is by design. I can't recall the last time a Pistons player other than Darko who is now gone, have had a run in with the law.

I believe that all of this is by design. Delfino clearly doesn't have a problem with the law, but he did not fit in and so he was banished.

Carlisle was ousted because he caused waves. Big Ben was not resigned because he did not get along with Flipper. Sheed and Flipper reached an agreement and now everything is running pretty smoothly there. Note the reduced number of T's that Sheed has had this year.

Darko, Delfino etc never fit in and they were sent packing.

Flipper has managed to survive, maybe by being a sycophant, like Roscoe has said, but nonetheless he gets along with Joe D., Tom Wilson and Mr. D., so he will survive despite the fans dislike of him.

Yes, the Pistons want to win, but not at the risk of messing up the organization chemistry and having their players names on the sports pages for run ins with the law and/or not fitting in, in the locker room.

In that regard we are very similar to the Colts organization.

:hoops:

Just to set the record straight Carlos wasn't sent packing, he requested a trade and Joe Dumars accomodated him. Remember Carlos has the same agent as Chauncey and when the agent was working with the Pistons behind the scenes on getting Billup's that long term contract he threw in that Fino wanted out because Flip Flopper wasn't giving him a significant role to play on the team. Is Toronto a better fit for Delfino, hell to the yes on that one but he wasn't a problem on the Pistons and in fact was well liked. Being the only foreign player on a team can be lonely so now Carlos can converse with many of his teammates in Italian or Spanish so having the right fit is very important. Plus Carlos is basically in his prime now as a basketball player, this is his 4th year in the NBA and the European players take a few years to develop their game. Even Mano Ginobili wasn't an impact player his first couple years he had to grow into that. I'm still a Pistons fan to the core but that doesn't mean I'm not rooting for Toronto to be successful as well now that Carlos is on the team. My dream is for the Raptors to play the Pistons for the Eastern Conference Championship.

Just to set the record straight Carlos wasn't sent packing, he requested a trade and Joe Dumars accomodated him.

Carlos was sent packing.

He didn't fit in and wasn't wanted. This whole topic as been discussed before. The bottom line is that there are no European trained players on the Pistons. Yes he was born in Argentina but played extensively in Europe. It is the same style anyway. They don't fit in. That is the reality, regardless of what we may want to believe.

Whether he technically asked for the trade or was told to ask for a trade we will never know because we weren't privy to the conversations that took place.

That is why a player like AK-47 will never play for the Pistons under the current organizational setup. I wish I was wrong because there is a lot of excellent European trained talent in the NBA, but the facts as they now stand say that that is the reality. Wishing will not change it.

Have a nice day

:hoops:

They understood that too here in Detroit. That is why Joe D. drafted him. Unfortunately Joe. D. did not realize that Delfino did not fit in with the Pistons and the rest as they say is history.

The Pistons have very very few chemistry problems among the players and that is by design. I can't recall the last time a Pistons player other than Darko who is now gone, have had a run in with the law....

Yes, the Pistons want to win, but not at the risk of messing up the organization chemistry and having their players names on the sports pages for run ins with the law and/or not fitting in, in the locker room.

In that regard we are very similar to the Colts organization.

:hoops:
I think the problem has less to do with chemistry, and more to do with a seniority mentality. Detroit (Dumars and the coaches) don't want players to earn their PT, they want them to wait their turn. Which is why you will never see a rookie develop on this team. JMax only got PT because Ben left, and Nazr absolutely stinks.

Amir is sitting the pine, and I won't be surprised if he's begging for a trade at the end of the season. Stuckey will get his 10 mpg, but 3 years from now, after still getting his 10 mpg and playing behind Derick Fisher (a steal from the waivers after Lindsey retires in 2010), I wouldn't be surprised if he's demanding a trade.

I never bought the whole "he doesn't fit our style". Just because he's from another country? I mean, His biggest strengths are rebounding, defense, and unselfish team-play. If that doesn't fit our "Style", then something went drastically wrong here recently. The fact is, Flip never appreciated the things he did on the court to help the team, even when he wasn't a member of the offense (by design). He never cut the leash.

I never bought the whole "he doesn't fit our style". Just because he's from another country? I mean, His biggest strengths are rebounding, defense, and unselfish team-play. If that doesn't fit our "Style", then something went drastically wrong here recently. The fact is, Flip never appreciated the things he did on the court to help the team, even when he wasn't a member of the offense (by design). He never cut the leash.

I will stand by this statement now and always. I would rather have Delfino coach the Pistons vs. Flip Saunders. Delfino simply knows more about the game.

I never bought the whole "he doesn't fit our style". Just because he's from another country? I mean, His biggest strengths are rebounding, defense, and unselfish team-play. If that doesn't fit our "Style", then something went drastically wrong here recently. The fact is, Flip never appreciated the things he did on the court to help the team, even when he wasn't a member of the offense (by design). He never cut the leash.

Name me one player with a European basketball background that has ever succeeded with the Pistons. Whereas the list that have failed with us is pretty long. A resounding shutout to date.

Zelly was our first player with a European background. His first year was 2001-02. Unfortunately he had heart problems and was eventually traded. Since then a few have come and all have left us without making a meaningful impact with the Pistons. Not one has ever cracked the starting lineup and today we have zero on the 15 man roster.


Lets look at this week’s NBA team ranking concerning the European “help”:


The San Antonio Spurs lead the Top Ten this week which should not be surprising with two out of three players in the Top Ten. Francisco Elson added his eff per minute to give them the lead in front of the Utah Jazz. Dirk Nowitzki puts the Mavericks on 3rd all by himself, while Turkoglu does the same for the Orlando Magic to lift them on 4th.


Here is this week’s full ranking:


1. San Antonio Spurs, 0.70
2. Utah Jazz, 0.56
3. Dallas Mavericks, 0.55
4. Orlando Magic, 0.54
5. Los Angeles Lakers. 0.53
6. Toronto Raptors, 0.50
7. Denver Nuggets, 0.48
8. Milwaukee Bucks. 0.44
9. Washington Wizards, 0.39
10. Minnesota Timberwolves, 0.38
I find this a bit odd that we have been in the ECF 5 years in a row without having any meaningful contribution from a European trained player. Carlos came the closest, but he was moved to Toronto where his performance has come closer to what was expected of him when we drafted him.

Blame it on Cola, Pound for Pound or Flipper or whatever, but the facts are the facts. Players with European hoops backgrounds have never fit in with us enough to succeed.

Thank you.

Breaking down the Euros in the NBA (http://www.ballineurope.com/national-teams/breaking-down-the-euros-in-the-nba/)

:hoops:

Name me one player with a European basketball background that has ever succeeded with the Pistons. Whereas the list that have failed with us is pretty long. A resounding shutout to date.

Zelly was our first player with a European background. His first year was 2001-02. Unfortunately he had heart problems and was eventually traded. Since then a few have come and all have left us without making a meaningful impact with the Pistons. Not one has ever cracked the starting lineup and today we have zero on the 15 man roster.

I find this a bit odd that we have been in the ECF 5 years in a row without having any meaningful contribution from a European trained player. Carlos came the closest, but he was moved to Toronto where his performance has come closer to what was expected of him when we drafted him.

Blame it on Cola, Pound for Pound or Flipper or whatever, but the facts are the facts. Players with European hoops backgrounds have never fit in with us enough to succeed.

Thank you.

Breaking down the Euros in the NBA (http://www.ballineurope.com/national-teams/breaking-down-the-euros-in-the-nba/)

:hoops:

Uhh... Memo Okur? He averaged about 10/6 for us in his 2nd year (we won the title that year BTW). He had enough success here to earn a contract worth about 8.5 million per year. The only reason he left is because we couldn't technically afford him under the cba rules if we wanted to keep Rasheed. And he had probably the most "Euro" influence in his game of any foreign player we've ever had.

Another high scoring event for Fino. 15 points on 16 shots. Hard to have a high percentage when 9 of the 16 shots are 3's. Guess he is spreading the floor for the bigs. Had enough left in 30 minutes to gather 6 boards too.

They probably beat the Wizards if Bargnani doesn't go 2-13.

Uhh... Memo Okur? He averaged about 10/6 for us in his 2nd year (we won the title that year BTW). He had enough success here to earn a contract worth about 8.5 million per year. The only reason he left is because we couldn't technically afford him under the cba rules if we wanted to keep Rasheed. And he had probably the most "Euro" influence in his game of any foreign player we've ever had.

He lasted 2 years at only 20 minutes a game, Brown sat him in the 2004 playoffs and we never resigned him. Please don't tell me for what will seem like the millionth time that we didn't have the money to sign him. The fact is that we chose to keep an American trained player and let Okur go. Excuses are excuses and facts are facts. Case closed.

:hoops:

We didn't have the money to sign him.
Case closed.

:hoops:

He lasted 2 years at only 20 minutes a game, Brown sat him in the 2004 playoffs and we never resigned him. Please don't tell me for what will seem like the millionth time that we didn't have the money to sign him. The fact is that we chose to keep an American trained player and let Okur go. Excuses are excuses and facts are facts. Case closed.

:hoops:

We chose the BETTER player of the two. If we could have kept both, we would have. There is no way in hell Joe could ever live down not re-signing Rasheed after he was the reason we got to the finals. It was about money.

Did anyone check out the Raptors box score from last night? Fino Leads the team in scoring while Bosch, Ford and Bargnani (sp) get the night off. Raptors beat the Bobcats. Can't imagine that went over well with Bobcat Management; losing to second string Raptors?

Raps put up good fight against Suns. 130 to 117 or something.

Seems Carlos's minutes are coming down a bit. Was up around 35 per and is coming in around 25 for the last few games. Still had a good stat line with the reduced time. Hit the boards hard and had an astounding +30.

Hit the boards hard and had an astounding +30.

I noticed that. I know that short-run +/- can be very misleading. It is usually because the player just happened to be in during a couple big runs. This +30 was very strange because nobody else on the team was even close to that.

Beats being -30.

Fino is the best guy they Raps have coming off the bench.
[when he doesn't start]

I noticed that. I know that short-run +/- can be very misleading. It is usually because the player just happened to be in during a couple big runs. This +30 was very strange because nobody else on the team was even close to that.

Beats being -30.

Watching the games, I can tell you that Delfino is typically more plus at the beginning of his stints. His coach tends to bring him on early in the first or third quarter and leave him the rest of that half. In this game in particular, Delfino was in foul trouble, so his coach was forced to rest him more than usual, so Delfino ended up playing rested the whole game.

Watching the games, I can tell you that Delfino is typically more plus at the beginning of his stints. His coach tends to bring him on early in the first or third quarter and leave him the rest of that half. In this game in particular, Delfino was in foul trouble, so his coach was forced to rest him more than usual, so Delfino ended up playing rested the whole game.

Is it just me or am I getting the impression you think Fino is playing TOO much? Who would have ever thought?

Is it just me or am I getting the impression you think Fino is playing TOO much? Who would have ever thought?

I believe that was the thinking among Pistons management when he was here. That is why he was traded.

:hoops:

I believe that was the thinking among Pistons management when he was here. That is why he was traded.

:hoops:

Actually I think management would have preferred he played closer to the minutes (and numbers) he has been playing. The problem was the coach didn't see it that way.