http://www.pistonsforum.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=76


Well, if you are Minnesota Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor, you blame it all on Flip Saunders, the guy he fired three years ago, just months after Saunders led the Timberwolves to the Western Conference finals.
Talk about revisionist history -- this is a classic.

Hey mikhail...where's the link to the story?

Sorry, here it goes:
MLive.com: Everything Michigan (http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2007/10/timberwolves_owner_criticizes.html)
Owner blames Pistons' Saunders for Timberwolves' woes (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071029/OPINION03/710290388/1339/SPORTS0102)

Sorry, here it goes:
MLive.com: Everything Michigan (http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2007/10/timberwolves_owner_criticizes.html)
Owner blames Pistons' Saunders for Timberwolves' woes (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071029/OPINION03/710290388/1339/SPORTS0102)

Agree that they should not blame Saunders for the t-Wolves woes, but can we still blame him for past two seasons Pistons ECF flameouts??:)

When he eventually gets fired from the pistons in february, the unnamed sources in the pistons organization will get him..............it is just a matter of time.

As is most of the time, McCosky twists things to Flip's defense. However, I don't think Taylor did his franchise any favors with his comments.

The most we will hear from Pistons - "Flip is not a very good coach". :stirthepot:

Agree that they should not blame Saunders for the t-Wolves woes, but can we still blame him for past two seasons Pistons ECF flameouts??:)

He flamed out every post-season with the Wolves.

Hard to know the truth here when you're dealing with two Grade-A wackos: Taylor and McCrapsky.

He flamed out every post-season with the Wolves.

The West has been tough (Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, etc.) and the T-Wolves never had enough pieces to win it all. I think you have to give Saunders credit for taking over a very weak team 10 years ago and then leading it to 8 consecutive playoff appearances in a very deep conference.

I would would not have been happy as a Wolves fan with the 5 straight 1st round losses. Then having the best record and losing in the WCF in the one and only playoff run they had.
They had a heck of lot more talent when Flip was the coach. He was actually fired when they started sub .500 that last year.

Flip seems to be the type of coach that is happy with just making the playoffs. That could be where some of the problems are. He seems to be coaching to win 50 games and not to win it all. Why develope players when guys like Murry and Hayes are good enough.

Flip seems to be the type of coach that is happy with just making the playoffs. That could be where some of the problems are. He seems to be coaching to win 50 games and not to win it all. Why develope players when guys like Murry and Hayes are good enough.

You actually think Saunders is happy losing in the playoffs?

You actually think Saunders is happy losing in the playoffs?

I think he expects it.

I don't think he expects it, but he hasn't shown enough coaching savvy to make playoff adjustments to keep it going. When the team stumbled in the playoffs players only had themselves to count on since Flip was of no more use. I wonder if that's what Sheed was sensing when he told everyone to defy Flip's orders.

You actually think Saunders is happy losing in the playoffs?

Just getting to the playoffs has been very good to Flip. He has had a nice, well paid run as an NBA coach and he is pleasant enough that he stays employed despite his dismal record.

Just getting to the playoffs has been very good to Flip. He has had a nice, well paid run as an NBA coach and he is pleasant enough that he stays employed despite his dismal record.

That doesn't mean he is happy with his playoff record, though. Coaches have egos. They want to win titles and be measured against the best. Saunders is no different. He wants to win a Championship. I guarantee it. Whether he is a good enough coach to actually pull it off, that is debatable.

That doesn't mean he is happy with his playoff record, though. Coaches have egos. They want to win titles and be measured against the best. Saunders is no different. He wants to win a Championship. I guarantee it. Whether he is a good enough coach to actually pull it off, that is debatable.
He needs to show he can make adjustments. So far he religiously stuck to his playbook and that is not good enough to get the team into the finals.

He needs to show he can make adjustments. So far he religiously stuck to his playbook and that is not good enough to get the team into the finals.

I thought the team was following Sheed's play book in the playoffs. (see thread on "Who Coached the Pistons".

:hoops:

I would would not have been happy as a Wolves fan with the 5 straight 1st round losses. Then having the best record and losing in the WCF in the one and only playoff run they had.


The year they lost to the Lakers in the WCF Finals, Sprewell played in that series only limited minutes and during those minutes he played on basically one leg.

If Sprewell had been healthy the T-Wolves would have beaten the Lakers. Most coaches can not adjust their team well enough when they lose their top guard during the Conferenece Finals to wind up winning it.

The other years the T-Wolves would never have made the playoffs without Flip coaching them and were seated 8th in the West. I believe in each of those years the team that beat the T-Wolves in the playoffs went on to win the NBA title or at least get into the Finals.

:hoops:

The West has been tough (Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, etc.) and the T-Wolves never had enough pieces to win it all. I think you have to give Saunders credit for taking over a very weak team 10 years ago and then leading it to 8 consecutive playoff appearances in a very deep conference.

I can't buy that. Instead of this guy living up to the standard he set during his regular seasons, his teams routinely disappointed in the playoffs. That trend is continuing here. I think people need to take 'disappointed' for what it really means. His team SHOULD have performed better in the post season based on their regular season performances, and they consistently did not. I think that's the key here. His teams didn't have to play the same team every year. No matter who they faced, they consistently failed to get the job done.

You don't fail to get out of the first round for 7 straight years just because you keep getting the short straw. You fail because you aren't doing something right.

His team SHOULD have performed better in the post season based on their regular season performances, and they consistently did not.

Where does that "should" come from? Minnesota was the lower-seeded team the first six times they lost in the first round, so I don't really see how those can be characterized as disappointing losses. The seventh year, they had home court in a 4-5 matchup against the Lakers, but LA had dropped to the 5th spot because of injuries and still came within one Horry miss against SA of possibly winning their 4th 'ship in a row. And then the eighth year, they had the best record in the conference but got hit by injuries when they faced the Lakers in the conference finals.

I'm not going to say that Flip achieved at an acceptable level in the past two conference finals with the Pistons--clearly, he didn't--but I don't see much similarity with his playoff record in Minnesota.

I thought the team was following Sheed's play book in the playoffs. (see thread on "Who Coached the Pistons".

:hoops:
Pimpin' that Sheed hater thread I see. Too much. Way to be a fan man.

Pimpin' that Sheed hater thread I see. Too much. Way to be a fan man.
It is not Sheed hating, just mere discussion of the facts at hand. It is a fact that Sheed asked players not to follow Flip's directives and we are trying to figure out if and how it could impact this upcoming season.

It is not Sheed hating, just mere discussion of the facts at hand. It is a fact that Sheed asked players not to follow Flip's directives and we are trying to figure out if and how it could impact this upcoming season.

Good Luck with that.

Where does that "should" come from? Minnesota was the lower-seeded team the first six times they lost in the first round, so I don't really see how those can be characterized as disappointing losses. The seventh year, they had home court in a 4-5 matchup against the Lakers, but LA had dropped to the 5th spot because of injuries and still came within one Horry miss against SA of possibly winning their 4th 'ship in a row. And then the eighth year, they had the best record in the conference but got hit by injuries when they faced the Lakers in the conference finals.

I'm not going to say that Flip achieved at an acceptable level in the past two conference finals with the Pistons--clearly, he didn't--but I don't see much similarity with his playoff record in Minnesota.

With '97 being their first year in the playoffs, you can almost expect the sweep that happened and they didn't stand much of a chance in '98 being a 7th seed. I will grant you that maybe in '99 and 2000 they probably didn't stand much of a chance as an 8th seed and 6th seed respectively, but even there you can see the trend of the team getting better per its regular season record. But, they managed to get worse a year later in 01 and drop back to an 8th seed.

Now, in '02 things get interesting. They never even put up a fight and failed to win a single game against 4th seeded Dallas (which shouldn't happen in a 4/5 matchup). In '03 they lost to a 5th seeded Laker team in 6 and in '04 they lost again in 6 to a 2nd seed Laker team when they had the #1 seed.

So, I definitely see a trend here. Even if you can make the claim that they were learning on the go as a playoff team their 1st 2 or 3 trips in, they failed to get any better at performing in the playoffs. Now as far as Flip's last 3 playoff appearances in Minny, there is a clear pattern. They got the 5th seed in '02 and failed to put up a fight against a 4th seed getting swept...unacceptable. Again, in '03 and '04 Flips teams had the higher seed and home court and got bounced in 6. Exactly what's happened here, only here you could argue that Flips teams were even BETTER and he still managed to get bounced in less than 7 games against opponents seeded lower than his team.

This guy doesn't get the job done and he's shown it before and is proving it yet again. I guess he'll have to get eliminated by a 7th or 8th seed before anyone will admit that he just isn't good enough.

It is not Sheed hating, just mere discussion of the facts at hand. It is a fact that Sheed asked players not to follow Flip's directives and we are trying to figure out if and how it could impact this upcoming season.

Where is this FACT you speak of? Unless there is a written/audio account of Joe Dumars, Dolphin, or Sheed owning up to that taking place, there is no "fact" to highlight this discussion.

Where is this FACT you speak of? Unless there is a written/audio account of Joe Dumars, Dolphin, or Sheed owning up to that taking place, there is no "fact" to highlight this discussion.
Feisty Saunders still fighting back (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070918/SPORTS0102/709180327/1127/rss13)


Last season, Rasheed Wallace openly challenged Saunders during the pivotal loss in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference finals against Cleveland. He exhorted his teammates to disregard the coach's instructions late in the game, which ultimately led to disastrous defensive breakdowns and a fatal loss.


On Rasheed, Flip and Game 5 sabotage | Detroit Bad Boys (http://www.detroitbadboys.com/archives/2007-09-18/on-rasheed-flip-and-game-5-sabotage/)
When McCosky first described the breakdown in Game 5, I wondered if that was confirmed by the team or simply his own observation, but the fact that both Dumars and Saunders spoke to Wallace specifically about that game pretty much confirms that last year’s series against the Cavs really was a low point in a strained relationship.

cleveland.com: Everything Cleveland (http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1192955966222120.xml&coll=2)


In Game 5, Wallace waved off coach Flip Saunders' calls. Wallace huddled the team and called his own plays.


Pistons concede nothing - BostonHerald.com (http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/other_nba/view.bg?articleid=1039507)

Something definitely happened in Game 5 of the playoffs against Cleveland when Wallace began calling his own sets on offense and defense


I think this should be enough.

I think this should be enough.

You know, I really feel bad that you wasted all that time looking these up. Again, show me a clip or an interview from Joe D, Dolphin, or Sheed.

You failed to do such. NOTHING in ANY of those articles is 1st person. Just showing a sentence where one of those guys says they don't always see eye to eye is not going to prove an accusation of full-on/unadulterated insubordination in plain sight of the entire world and having the ability to then convince an ENTIRE ROSTER to follow you.

In fact, in most of your examples you provide exactly what I referred to ealier, some 3rd or 4th party taking word from McCrapsky. The closest thing to even mentioning Sheed doing anything specific was from Detroit Bad Boys (Blog) mentioning that Sheed was spoken to by Flip and Joe regarding game 5 to which there is also no evidence to support that claim. Half of these stories are built on the witness protection program of one Chris McCoskey whose clueless evaluations, blind loyalty, and constant ability to be ignored and not communicated with by Joe Dumars make 75% percent of anything he writes worthless.

That seemed good enough for me...

[quote=mikhail1973;117440]It is not Sheed hating, just mere discussion of the facts at hand. It is a fact that Sheed asked players not to follow Flip's directives and we are trying to figure out if and how it could impact this upcoming

If that did happen, then the players are dumber than dirt.

That seemed good enough for me...

I find it hard to take as fact the word of a local hack that repeatedly fails to report accurate insider info on a regular basis. How many times has this guy given you some news of an impending signing or deal that's supposed to go down and be completely wrong? His insider info is always suspect and he constantly writes from the position of 'what he thinks' as opposed to what is reality.

I find it hard to take as fact the word of a local hack that repeatedly fails to report accurate insider info on a regular basis. How many times has this guy given you some news of an impending signing or deal that's supposed to go down and be completely wrong? His insider info is always suspect and he constantly writes from the position of 'what he thinks' as opposed to what is reality.
I gave you quotes from different sources, but I guess it's not good enough.

You know what probably happened. Sheed changed 1 or 2 plays and someone just ran with it.

You know what probably happened. Sheed changed 1 or 2 plays and someone just ran with it.
It doesn't matter if it is even a couple of plays. When the team is defying coach's directives - the team is doomed.

I gave you quotes from different sources, but I guess it's not good enough.

None of your sources are in the Pistons organization.

No, it's not good enough.

When Ben had a problem with Flip, you heard it straight from the horses mouth.
When Darko/LB had issues, you got it right from both horses mouths.
When Davidson had problems with LB, he wasn't a "good person."

These guys have no problem speaking up when there are things going on. So, no McCrapsky's accusations and blind support for Flip hold no weight with me whatsoever.

Flip and Sheed both acknowledeged that there were issues. Joe did the same. I know it all doesn't matter.

Flip and Sheed both acknowledeged that there were issues. Joe did the same. I know it all doesn't matter.

"Issues" is a long far cry away from single handedly taking control of an entire team away from a coach, calling your own set of plays (as if Sheed has a playbook), AND GETTING AN ENTIRE ROSTER TO GO ALONG WITH YOU.

"Issues" is a long far cry away from single handedly taking control of an entire team away from a coach, calling your own set of plays (as if Sheed has a playbook), AND GETTING AN ENTIRE ROSTER TO GO ALONG WITH YOU.

After thinking about this whole thing, I agree with Low that the whole idea of Rasheed taking control of the team and calling plays like that is farfetched. There might be a kernal of truth...maybe an isolated incident and McCoskey ran with it and built it into an article.

At least it got some discussion going and got us thinking a bit.

After thinking about this whole thing, I agree with Low that the whole idea of Rasheed taking control of the team and calling plays like that is farfetched. There might be a kernal of truth...maybe an isolated incident and McCoskey ran with it and built it into an article.

At least it got some discussion going and got us thinking a bit.
So, I guess whatever Buddha and I did worked after all. That was the whole point of it.
:stirthepot:

"Issues" is a long far cry away from single handedly taking control of an entire team away from a coach, calling your own set of plays (as if Sheed has a playbook), AND GETTING AN ENTIRE ROSTER TO GO ALONG WITH YOU.In a case like the Pistons in the ECF, I could imagine a team getting frustrated with a lack of leadership from the coach, taking matters into their own hands and following a guy that doesn't want to lose. If in fact Sheed led a mutiny, I think he had the best intentions for success of the team.

Off-the-wall analogous...ever see the movie Crimson Tide?

In a case like the Pistons in the ECF, I could imagine a team getting frustrated with a lack of leadership from the coach, taking matters into their own hands and following a guy that doesn't want to lose. If in fact Sheed led a mutiny, I think he had the best intentions for success of the team.

Off-the-wall analogous...ever see the movie Crimson Tide?

To throw something else in there - this team doesn't think they need a coach, they've said that before.

To throw something else in there - this team doesn't think they need a coach, they've said that before.They said that after LB got booted. Two straight years of politically incorrect seafood has left them looking for some beef.