At Portland November 13th, 10:00PM

TV - FSN Detroit, NBALP


The Pistons face the new look young, run and gun Trailblazers. They are a streaky group, dropping thier first three on the road and winning the next three at home. Roy, Webster, and Aldridge are a handful for anybody.

Well, they beat the Mavs.

True ..tonight will not be an easy game, I hope not grant much like to seattle in 3 and 4 quarter...PISTONS FOREVER

Chat's open for the game.

Chat is open!!!

http://www.pistonsforum.com/misc.php?do=flashchat

Ok, I've waited long enough. I've given them a chance. Experiment over.

I really dislike Nazr and both Flips.

I like Hayes.

This game was lost because all the offense was going through Rip. He took quite a few bad shots he made poor decisions with the ball. He took too many shots in the context of the game. He was on the court with the 2nd unit in the 2nd quarter and for some reason looked like he was going to do all the scoring out there. Portland went on a run and Flip ended up putting the starters in. Tay with 42 min, Sheed with 41 min, and Rip with 40 min. Bench didn't stand a chance in this game. Sheed was slacking off on defense too. Pistons couldn't cut off the penetration. That led to 55% shooting by Portland. Mohammed was dreadful. Flip was his usual self.

Terrible rotations left our offense disjointed. Why was Hayes in for key minutes?

Only Maxiel brought some energy on the front line. He needs more minutes. Sheed was in a funk so why no Amir?

Trends: Nazi and Dyss can not get rebounds that don't fall onto their heads. Maxiel defends but doesn't board that well. Translation: yes, we are going to need a big. Prisbilla dominated us.

Why can every guard drive on us so easily? Is this a coaching or personnel problem? I would have used Afflalo to stop the defensive bleeding tonight.

Rip was off from the get-go so he gets 19 shots. Great coaching.

Sheed is playing way too many minutes...he looked very tired in the 3rd and 4th quarters....Rip was simply horrible. I guess in an 82 game season, this happens.
The dribble penetration was killing us. Sheed and McDyess will be useless after 40 games.
You need someone defensive minded in the backcourt; and yes, flip saunders needs to be fired; just is not a good coach; no philosophy; coaches very scared and disjointed. the entire second half seemed out of sync.

Sheed is playing way too many minutes...he looked very tired in the 3rd and 4th quarters....Rip was simply horrible. I guess in an 82 game season, this happens.

If they're that bad - take them out of the game. That's why we have players on the bench.

If they're that bad - take them out of the game. That's why we have players on the bench.

Flip is unable to make a decision like that, it is early in the season. If things are not working, try something different.

Flippin Flip played the starters the entire 3rd qtr??? CB came out with less than minute left, but that is only because he was hurting. Once again our guys looked winded near the end of the 3rd and once their bench came in we could not match theirs for intensity.

Wonder why Flip can't mix and match. It was obvious that Sheed was winded as he couldn't stop Aldridge one on one and no one could stop Chauncey's clone Jarret Jack. Message to Flip, bring a couple of those guys in at the 5 minute mark of the 3rd and stop riding the starters to the end. Tay and Sheed over 41 mins on the first night of a back to back?? Rip 40 mins. Afflow 4 mins, Amir -0- mins. Nate had 3 of his bench guys over 22 mins. If Flip can't use the bench, then either he or some of them need to go...

Rip missed 15 shots and it seem like the tide turned in the second qtr when the Pistons were up 38-32 and Rip received a wide open pass to the hoop and missed an ez-lay up by 3 feet.!!!! He could have practiced his dunking skills there he was so open... The Blazers grabbed the the rebound and ran off 10 straight and started to believe they could win...

Remember how hot Sheed was?? 13 pts in the 1st qtr and 2 after that. Jarvis Hayes played as if he was still on Wizards, playing little D and throwing away the ball in crunch time..

If they're that bad - take them out of the game. That's why we have players on the bench.

Flip Saunders: "What's a bench?"

Flip Saunders: "Wait a second. I know this one. That's where the starters sit during timeouts right? That's right. I remember now. Joe D hired some guys to sit in the chairs during the game to keep them warm for the starters. The shock of warm bottoms on a cold chair can be pretty severe when you've played the entire game."

That little stint by Nazr was about as ugly as it gets. He looked like cold syrup out there. His drop in bucket and the rebound that fell in his lap were OK, but absolutely everything else he did just sucked.

Murray wasn't good either, but at least he did some good things.

You gotta hand it to Portland tonight. They made a ton of outside shots, they made Sheed look like a scarecrow on D, and they bothered us down the stretch with their defensive effort. They have some talented players who don't get bored making the same shot over and over.

Flippin Flip played the starters the entire 3rd qtr??? CB came out with less than minute left, but that is only because he was hurting. Once again our guys looked winded near the end of the 3rd and once their bench came in we could not match theirs for intensity.

Wonder why Flip can't mix and match. It was obvious that Sheed was winded as he couldn't stop Aldridge one on one and no one could stop Chauncey's clone Jarret Jack. Message to Flip, bring a couple of those guys in at the 5 minute mark of the 3rd and stop riding the starters to the end. Tay and Sheed over 41 mins on the first night of a back to back?? Rip 40 mins. Afflow 4 mins, Amir -0- mins. Nate had 3 of his bench guys over 22 mins. If Flip can't rust the bench, then either he or some of them need to go...

Rip missed 15 shots and it seem like the tide turn in the second qtr when the Pistons were up 38-32 and Rip received a wide open pass to the hoop and missed an ez-lay up by 3 feet.!!!! He could have practice his dunking skills there he was so open... The Blazers grabbed the the rebound and ran off 10 straight and started to believe they could win...

Remember how hot Sheed was?? 13 pts in the 1st qtr and 2 after that. Jarvis Hayes played as if he was still on Wizards, playing little D and throwing away the ball in crunch time..

If you can not play your bench on the 7th game of the year when will they play? This was a perfect time to play the bench because the starters were either hurt, tired, or shooting horribly. I just do not understand. He coaches like he is scared. Maybe he knows his job is on the line. I bet not one reporter asked him the tough questions.

this was probably the worst-coached game i've ever seen by flip, and that's saying something. i normally don't get upset over regular season games or losses, but my goodness, this was atrocious...flat out terrible. this game was lost by 2 people - flip saunders and rip hamilton. i'll go to the coaching last and talk about the players first...

rip hamilton - GET OFF THE FLOOR. yeah, i know you scored 32 last night, i don't care. not only did you miss THREE bunnies, you took 20 shots and missed 15!!!! every other starter shot 50% but you were determined to keep driving the lane where you not only didn't finish, but made it difficult to get back on defense and left us at 4-on-5. it was 38-32 and you missed a layup that would've made it 40-32, then the guy you're supposed to be guarding comes down and scores to make it 38-34, a crucial 4-point swing that let the blazers right back into it.

afflalo - good use of your 5 minutes, playing excellent defense as always. you should've gotten a lot more time.

maxiell - awesome game...when flip let you play. 5 boards in only 14 minutes, 2/3 shooting, 2 blocks, no fouls, and no turnovers. wait, why only 14 minutes?!?!?!?

chauncey - no complaints about chauncey this year. played an excellent game, made tough shots, gutted it out while banged up, got a couple steals, 9 assists, 1 turnover, and made over 50% of his shots.

tay - average game, would've rather had you take 30 shots than 15, but it was kind of hard with rip doing his best flip-murray-ballhogging impression. but then toward the end of the game you routinely were too low on the block to get offensive rebounds and got bullied out of the way.

sheed - continues to be our best player every night. looked to be standing up a couple times on D and not going after guys in the paint, but that's because they were getting into the lane with too much ease and sheed was frustrated that no one else could check their man.

dice, flip murray - not your best. sure you shot okay, but neither contributed defensively or with smart plays. at least flip only took one bad shot (a jumper) and was able to change the pace a little bit.

nazr - didn't get enough time to determine.

hayes - plays well when not taking quick jumpers...much better at spot-up shooting and posting up. not a terrible game but not super great either.

now the coaching...by far the worst i've seen by flip in the regular season. how do you not make any in-game adjustments, or any half-time adjustments?? by the time you tried a zone D it was too late, and then you abandoned it after one made shot by portland. you don't try a pressuring defense until 3 minutes to go in the 4th quarter (which produced 2 quick turnovers), when your traditional defense was broken all game?? portland is a young team that will make mistakes, but you let the guys play soft D instead of applying pressure, and as a result portland was content with hitting jumper after jumper. do you not know how to defend a high pick-and-roll? portland shot 55 f'ing percent!!

how can you justify keeping rip hamilton in for 40 minutes when he's making bad play after bad play? yank him out of the game!! did you not see what was going on out there? take away rip and the rest of the team shot 50% !!!!

by far the most egregious bad judgment was at the end of the game, and the lineup of sheed/tay/hayes/rip/chauncey. we played good defense with that unit but there wasn't anyone there to rebound!! what, just because dice is out you can't let max play in crunch time? i counted 3 or 4 boards max would've pulled down, but instead we've got small forwards trying to snag rebounds over power forwards and centers. seriously how do you go with that lineup for the last 6 minutes and 40 seconds? i can understand pulling flip murray at that point, because not only did he miss a long jumper, but he let sergio (wtf) rodriguez drain a 3 and make it a 4-point game. but max should've been in those last 6 minutes.

pair maxiell with sheed, chauncey, tay, and hayes for those last 6 minutes and you come out with a W. instead of tay playing power forward, he gets his normal position and can work on guarding outlaw, while hayes plays shooting guard, which gives you the ability to post him up and have another rebounder and 3-point threat.

and what the heck is with the scared rotation changes? any time the game is close flip is afraid to take out the starters. this game was back-and-forth...oh no, better not take the starters out in the 3rd quarter!! the bench might *gasp* mess up! </sarcasm>

there were a lot of home-town calls that went portland's way, but this is a game detroit never should have lost. unfortunately you could tell from the 2nd quarter on that they'd either lose this game or have to win in the last minute.

just terrible all around. two thumbs down to rip and flip today.

That little stint by Nazr was about as ugly as it gets. He looked like cold syrup out there. His drop in bucket and the rebound that fell in his lap were OK, but absolutely everything else he did just sucked.

Murray wasn't good either, but at least he did some good things.

You gotta hand it to Portland tonight. They made a ton of outside shots, they made Sheed look like a scarecrow on D, and they bothered us down the stretch with their defensive effort. They have some talented players who don't get bored making the same shot over and over.

Agreed. Nazr was a difference maker FOR portland.

Sheed was exhausted as were most of the other starters.

Also, Rip will continue to be unsuccessful until Flip starts running the curls/pick sets. He is NOT a slasher. Tay is going to continue to get lost if there is no ball movement.

I watch our offense and it's the equivalent of the players coming down the floor and just doing whatever they feel like. It's so disjointed, unstructered, and we take way too many jumpshots. Jumpshots are not going to fall with tired legs.

I won't even bother talking about the defense b/c well we didn't play any. Our pick and roll defense was painful.

No Amir/Afflalo 4 min (and the only guy who could defend PORT guards)

Joe D better be prepared to back his word up.

this was probably the worst-coached game i've ever seen by flip, and that's saying something. i normally don't get upset over regular season games or losses, but my goodness, this was atrocious...flat out terrible. this game was lost by 2 people - flip saunders and rip hamilton. i'll go to the coaching last and talk about the players first...

rip hamilton - GET OFF THE FLOOR. yeah, i know you scored 32 last night, i don't care. not only did you miss THREE bunnies, you took 20 shots and missed 15!!!! every other starter shot 50% but you were determined to keep driving the lane where you not only didn't finish, but made it difficult to get back on defense and left us at 4-on-5. it was 38-32 and you missed a layup that would've made it 40-32, then the guy you're supposed to be guarding comes down and scores to make it 38-34, a crucial 4-point swing that let the blazers right back into it.

afflalo - good use of your 5 minutes, playing excellent defense as always. you should've gotten a lot more time.

maxiell - awesome game...when flip let you play. 5 boards in only 14 minutes, 2/3 shooting, 2 blocks, no fouls, and no turnovers. wait, why only 14 minutes?!?!?!?

chauncey - no complaints about chauncey this year. played an excellent game, made tough shots, gutted it out while banged up, got a couple steals, 9 assists, 1 turnover, and made over 50% of his shots.

tay - average game, would've rather had you take 30 shots than 15, but it was kind of hard with rip doing his best flip-murray-ballhogging impression. but then toward the end of the game you routinely were too low on the block to get offensive rebounds and got bullied out of the way.

sheed - continues to be our best player every night. looked to be standing up a couple times on D and not going after guys in the paint, but that's because they were getting into the lane with too much ease and sheed was frustrated that no one else could check their man.

dice, flip murray - not your best. sure you shot okay, but neither contributed defensively or with smart plays. at least flip only took one bad shot (a jumper) and was able to change the pace a little bit.

nazr - didn't get enough time to determine.

hayes - plays well when not talking quick jumpers...much better at spot-up shooting and posting up. not a terrible game but not super great either.

now the coaching...by far the worst i've seen by flip in the regular season. how do you not make any in-game adjustments, or any half-time adjustments?? by the time you tried a zone D it was too late, and then you abandoned it after one made shot by portland. you don't try a pressuring defense until 3 minutes to go in the 4th quarter (which produced 2 quick turnovers), when your traditional defense was broken all game?? portland is a young team that will make mistakes, but you let the guys play soft D all game and as a result portland was content with hitting jumper after jumper. do you not know how to defend a high pick-and-roll? portland shot 55 f'ing percent!!

how can you justify keeping rip hamilton in for 40 minutes when he's making bad play after bad play? yank him out of the game!! did you not see what was going on out there? take away rip and the rest of the team shot 50% !!!!

by far the most egregious bad judgment was at the end of the game, and the lineup of sheed/tay/hayes/rip/chauncey. we played good defense with that unit but there wasn't anyone there to rebound!! what, just because dice is out you can't let max play in crunch time? i counted 3 or 4 boards max would've pulled down, but instead we've got small forwards trying to snag rebounds over power forwards and centers. seriously how do you go with that lineup for the last 6 minutes and 40 seconds? i can understand pulling flip murray at that point, because not only did he miss a long jumper, but he let sergio (wtf) rodriguez drain a 3 and make it a 4-point game. but max should've been in those last 6 minutes.

pair maxiell with sheed, chauncey, tay, and hayes for those last 6 minutes and you come out with a W. instead of tay playing power forward, he gets his normal position and can work on guarding outlaw, while hayes plays shooting guard, which gives you the ability to post him up and have another rebounder and 3-point threat.

and what the heck is with the scared rotation changes? any time the game is close flip is afraid to take out the starters. this game was back-and-forth...oh no, better not take the starters out!! the bench might *gasp* mess up! </sarcasm>

there were a lot of home-town calls that went portland's way, but this is a game detroit never should have lost. unfortunately you could tell from the 2nd quarter on that they'd either lose this game or have to win in the last minute.

just terrible all around. two thumbs down to rip and flip today.


Just poor coaching. I am a Pistons fan, but we need a new coach. This game showed it more than most, it leaves you speechless.

I wonder if McCosky would ask Flip why he kept Rip in there so long when he was clearly stinking up the gym.

I wonder if McCosky would ask Flip why he kept Rip in there so long when he was clearly stinking up the gym.


No way he asks.

A sad lose. We didn't have Pistons game on TV, lived nor taped thus far this season, obviously we won't have any if they keep playing like this :(

this was probably the worst-coached game i've ever seen by flip, and that's saying something. i normally don't get upset over regular season games or losses, but my goodness, this was atrocious...flat out terrible. this game was lost by 2 people - flip saunders and rip hamilton. i'll go to the coaching last and talk about the players first...



I've yet to see him coach a good game, my friend.

Agree with all of your points Hog. I expect Flip to get his %%%%% chewed out by Joe on the plane ride to Sacramento. They almost lost Sunday's sonics game because the starters were over played in the 3rd qtr and tonight he plays them the whole qtr and then sends Rip and Sheed out to play the first 90 seconds of the 4th.???

Billups was injured slightly in the third, left him in...Tay and Dice were ailing and they got over played.

Flip might be on to something though, because this bench can't seem to play anyway especially when there are more than 3 of them in there at once....how about a trade???? Flip Jr and Nazr are as bad as we already knew they were. We need a force in the middle as big as Kevin Duckworth:)

Most of Rip's misses were close or in the paint. Can't blame him for trying. It just wasn't working out.

You are correct to blame the coach for leaving the cold hand in and calling so many plays for him when he wasn't feelin' it.

Agree with all of your points Hog. I expect Flip to get his %%%%% chewed out by Joe on the plane ride to Sacramento. They almost lost Sunday's sonics game because the starters were over played in the 3rd qtr and tonight he plays them the whole qtr and then send Rip and Sheed out to play the first 90 seconds of the 4th.???

Billups was injured slightly in the third, left him in...Tay and Dice were ailing and they got over played.

Flip might be on to something though, because this bench can't seem to play anyway especially when there are more than 3 of them in there at once....how about a trade???? Flip Jr and Nazr are as bad as we already knew they were. We need a force in the middle as big as Kevin Duckworth:)

I don't think it's as much of bench being in there as it is a couple of crappy players that keep messing things up. Nazr is useless. Flip Jr is having hot and cold streaks. The 2nd unit needs Chauncey or Tay keeping things together, it seemed to work before.

Most of Rip's misses were close or in the paint. Can't blame him for trying. It just wasn't working out.

You are correct to blame the coach for leaving the cold hand in and calling so many plays for him when he wasn't feelin' it.

Rip was forcing too much. I know he wants to win and help the team, but sometimes he needs to take a step back and leave scoring up to someone else. If he can't, Flip needs to sub for him. Simple as that.

Agree with all of your points Hog. I expect Flip to get his %%%%% chewed out by Joe on the plane ride to Sacramento.

I hope we don't have to wait that long for that. I hope he gets chewed right away from JoeD.

I hope we don't have to wait that long for that. I hope he gets chewed right away from JoeD.

I'll be at the game tomorrow. I'll see if I can get within the earshot of Flip.
:gun1::gun1::gun1:

Good writeups by several people, thanks. Not much positive to say about Flip Saunder's coaching. I certainly won't add anything positive myself. Here is a negative though. At this point, the decision to keep Flip Saunders is making the Piston front office and the owner look well, lets just say real bad and be polite about it. This guy is just flat out rebelling all the way about the youth movement thing.


Afflalo got to play, and he played some good solid D, and gave a noticeable energy boost to the Pistons while on the floor. But it did not matter. After his 4 minutes or so, Flip Murray got the rest of the backup guard minutes. Prince played just a bit in the backcourt too.


Flip Murray had a decent game on offense. Some scattered decisions, but some good ones too. Plus he made that triple as time expired in the 3rd to tie the game up. And started the 4th quarter with a layup. On defense, we just could not do anything on defense with Flip in the game. However, no, I won't pin all that on him. The fact is that Hayes is a bit slow footed, Dyess is too, and Mohammed resembles a stationary object quite closely. This is the kind of defense Saunders chose to put in in the first half. He did better in the 2nd half, leaving Mohammed out. (But negated that positive by not playing Afflalo in the 2nd half. In total, our bench was horrid, with mediocre guard play and no defense.


Dyess apparently is injured. He has been overplayed, but I do not know if that is contributing to his injury, or maybe keeping it from healing. Dyess hates not to play. But Flip Saunders is the guy overplaying this guy. I hate to say it, cause I would never wish Dyess any pain, but if Dyess can't play, it means Maxiell starts - which is a good thing. Flip Saunders is still on a personal campaign to ice Jason by giving him very irregular minutes. Why he did not play the end of this game is a mystery. Sure, he ain't perfect, but he was the only guy we had blocking shots. Just before he came out he blocked a shot on one end and scored in the post on the other. Unless he got injured and this was not mentioned. (or was it. Kind of confused on that point as they did say Maxiell was injured -but while talking about the Dyess injury - so I am not sure.)


Hayes scored in the post a bit, and he made a triple that was simply too late to do us any good. Not enough for to make up for his lack of speed on D.


Rip made some shots, but missed a lot too. This included missing one completely unguarded layup. On D, he did not help much as he was just a bad matchup tonight - a rare thing for him really, but just maybe Afflalo was the right guy for this game. I believe we could have won just with Afflalo's better D.


Tay was more aggressive. He did make an outside shot or two, but did most of his damage going right to the basket.
Billups had a so so game. He made some shots, made some nice feeds. But he also missed a lot of shots.


Sheed had a pretty darn good game on offense, especially so in the first half, making triples and scoring inside too. His defense? Pretty good when Maxiell was playing along side him. Not good enough to compensate for guys like Hayes, Dyess playing along side him.


Let me see, starters overplayed again, Amir did not play, Afflalo limited to one quick appearance. Tricky (My new name for Flip) gave the illusion of playing youth by giving Afflalo that early stint in the 1st quarter, but its pretty obvious what he is doing. Five minutes for Amir last game, but no Afflalo. About five minutes for Afflalo this game, but no Amir. And meanwhile doing his level headed best to ice out JMAX. JMAX would have played several minutes less in this one if Dyess had not picked up his 3rd foul in the 2nd quarter.


Yeah, Portand does have some talent. But our starters are better than their starters. And if Afflalo and JMAX get heavy minutes, our bench is better than theirs. But you throw in a lot of Flip Murray and Mohammed, our bench can't compete with theirs, and that was the ball game. Bad loss. Not a blessed thing toward making us a playoff winner. We get a guy injured. Billups is banged up, and all Flip will do about that is maybe play Hunter a bit next game.


We are still 5-2. We still have a great team, which Flip Saunders has not managed to tear down completely yet this season (though he is mightily working on it.) Stay positive everyone, and hope Dumars steps in and rights the ship. GO PISTONS!!!!!

Lee, thanks for the recap. And I agree with pretty much all you said, except that Chauncey was 7-13 from the field, and I'd call it a good shooting percentage for a guard. Can't do much better than that on most nights. Meanwhile Rip missed a lot more than he hit, going 5-20. But defense was pretty bad pretty much all night.

I'll be at the game tomorrow. I'll see if I can get within the earshot of Flip.
:gun1::gun1::gun1:

Can you print off the comments from tonights thread and stick it on Flip's chair at halftime? Maybe after reading it he will think twice and insert a couple of bench players in there midway thru the 3rd qtr. Have a good time. Normally when one us is in attendance, the Pistons win.

let's face it- Flip won't get it done. For years, we've been seeing the same thing over and over. He has real problems to create good rotations that play good together. He only trusts his starters, especially if games get close and he doesn't care if they got worn out, as long as his regular season looks good. Yes, the Pistons are still one of the elite teams in this league- but there are enough reasons to worry if they're a real contender.

Good Leecap Mr 356/357 Is it possible we can get those "rotations" to Joe so he can filter them down to Flip. This guy is killing us before we can get out of the block. Yeah we are 5-2, will lose a few games and should be happy. But there is no reason why the Pistons shouldn't be 7-0.

I would have no issues if we were 5-2 and those 2 losses were the Spurs, Mavs,Rockets, Jazz or Suns as we still have work to do. But to lose games this early in the season to the Blazers and Bulls because you are afraid to insert and train bench players falls right into the last two years unsuccessful playbook.

and Mohammed resembles a stationary object quite closely. Now that is funny. I don't think this game is going to make 'Ol Nazr's highlight reel.

Is there a weaker player in the L than Rip? As he missed his first layup of the game the Portland announcers were saying " there is Hamilton doing what he does" and I was thinking yes he is - he's missing layups. At least no one landed on his head this time. I almost hit the floor laughing when he missed his 3rd wide open layup with 19 seconds to go in the game. Portland had totally backed off so they wouldn't foul by this point. I think half the WNBA could hit an 'and 1' against him.

The Pistons offense has zero flow to it. They had some nice movement early going to Sheed inside and getting jumpers off of that. That is the exception.

Watch how many times DET is on D and they have two guys confused and rotating out to the ball leaving another wide open. I am sure the DET News will tell me this is the players fault.

CB only played 32-33 minutes.

Good Leecap Mr 356/357 Is it possible we can get those "rotations" to Joe so he can filter them down to Flip. This guy is killing us before we can get out of the block. Yeah we are 5-2, will lose a few games and should be happy. But there is no reason why the Pistons shouldn't be 7-0.

I would have no issues if we were 5-2 and those 2 losses were the Spurs, Mavs,Rockets, Jazz or Suns as we still have work to do. But to lose games this early in the season to the Blazers and Bulls because you are afraid to insert and train bench players falls right into the last two years unsuccessful playbook.

Does he even have a playbook?
Flip - We're going to work on this play tonight:
Chauncey passes the ball to Rip. Everyone just stand and watch him taking a forced jumper.

Watch how many times DET is on D and they have two guys confused and rotating out to the ball leaving another wide open. I am sure the DET News will tell me this is the players fault.


Guess what? You're actually wrong on this one. Our good friend McCoskey is all over Rip in this game:
Might as well start with Richard Hamilton. He missed his first shot, a clean layup, and just kept firing up shot after shot, regardless of situation and regardless of the fact that too few were going in. He finished with 14 points, missing 15 of 20 shots -- many of them were layups and close-range jumpers.
At the end of the third quarter, Hamilton earned an earful from Rasheed Wallace. After Hamilton rebounded his own missed shot with 11 seconds left, he rushed up another errant shot instead of playing for the last shot.

Have to agree on the mins in this one. 41 a piece for Sheed and Tay is too much. 39 for Rip when he just played 41 the other game. Plus Billups and Dyess are banged up and we have another game Wed night.

Portland is tough at home. They look like an older version of the Sonic team, old enough not to fold down the stretch.

Originally Posted by Mikhail1973
Guess what? You're actually wrong on this one. Our good friend McCoskey is all over Rip in this game:

Well I'll be a horse's behind. I guess it's like Sheed says, 'The sun shines on a dogs butt once in a while.'

Enjoy the game tomorrow.

losing is not something that worries me. We will lose at least 25 - 30 games in the season. what worries me is that we lose such games while our starters play those heavy minutes. Now CB and Mcdice are both hurt. Thanks Flip, way to go for the rest of the season

GET LB BACK. WOULD HE AGREE?

let's face it- Flip won't get it done. For years, we've been seeing the same thing over and over. He has real problems to create good rotations that play good together. He only trusts his starters, especially if games get close and he doesn't care if they got worn out, as long as his regular season looks good. Yes, the Pistons are still one of the elite teams in this league- but there are enough reasons to worry if they're a real contender.

Lee, thanks for the recap. And I agree with pretty much all you said, except that Chauncey was 7-13 from the field, and I'd call it a good shooting percentage for a guard. Can't do much better than that on most nights. Meanwhile Rip missed a lot more than he hit, going 5-20. But defense was pretty bad pretty much all night.

Don't spend too much time correcting me on such things. I post my reports without looking at the boxscores. I will make mistakes. The reason I do not look at the boxscore is that I want to get my impressions from the game down while they are still fresh in my mind.

Saunders had the Pistons trap the high pick-and-roll play with some success late in the game, but it was too late.

"You can say we could have went to it sooner, but we went to it late and we didn't have enough time," Saunders said.

wow saunders actually somewhat alludes to the fact that they were too late in playing pressure defense. of course, he says it in such a manner that he doesn't put blame on himself and uses weird English. 'you could say we could have went to it sooner, but we went to it late' is not even a coherent thought in the English language.

i hate how he always says 'you' in the 2nd person while philosophizing, and always says 'we' when admitting the pistons did something wrong. this is how flip always speaks, and it avoids directly blaming himself for anything. i'd respect him a lot more of he manned up and took some responsibility for his mistakes, or just *once* say 'this game was my fault as a coach'. of course, just like being scared and overplaying the starters, he is scared to blame himself when he knows his job isn't secure.

I really wanted only about 45-47 wins, and the bench playing signifigant minutes. This type of game plan would insure a good team for the playoffs. Our current path will net us 51-53 wins and a first round good-bye. The starters will be ready for their summer break by then.......

I really wanted only about 45-47 wins, and the bench playing signifigant minutes. This type of game plan would insure a good team for the playoffs. Our current path will net us 51-53 wins and a first round good-bye. The starters will be ready for their summer break by then.......

The starters would be ready for their summer break by the All-Star game at this rate.

Wouldn't you love to read the below headline in this thread today?

Joe says Enough is Enough!

Flip Saunders is fired and replaced by Piston Bad Boy Bill Laimbeer.

Makes my heart skip a beat just thinking about it. There is no doubt in my mind that Laims could get this talented team on the right path before seasons end.

I heard the game on my new Sirius Radio.
This 07-08 team has some serious growing pains to get through.
20 and 10 would be nice for the first 30.

Don't spend too much time correcting me on such things. I post my reports without looking at the boxscores. I will make mistakes. The reason I do not look at the boxscore is that I want to get my impressions from the game down while they are still fresh in my mind.
I'm not correcting you on anything. I am just expressing my opinion.

Does nobody else here feel like Portland played a really good game?

Aldridge was unreal against Sheed.
Roy was draining the life out of us with those jumpers.
Jack had another great game (3 out of his last 4 have been huge).

Plus, they WERE playing good defense. When a team that we don't respect plays this well, we get in trouble.

Does nobody else here feel like Portland played a really good game?

Aldridge was unreal against Sheed.
Roy was draining the life out of us with those jumpers.
Jack had another great game (3 out of his last 4 have been huge).

Plus, they WERE playing good defense. When a team that we don't respect plays this well, we get in trouble.


Face the facts, Flip relies on 6 guys to get the job done and other teams rely on 9-10 guys. If they are already showing signs of exhaustion at the end of the third quarter, just think what condition they will be in come May???
I think Sheed was trying to reserve his energy because he was in there for the long haul and when it came down to it, he didn't challenge those Aldridge shots like he could in the first qtr

Lee356 Let me see, starters overplayed again, Amir did not play, Afflalo limited to one quick appearance. Tricky (My new name for Flip) gave the illusion of playing youth by giving Afflalo that early stint in the 1st quarter, but its pretty obvious what he is doing. Five minutes for Amir last game, but no Afflalo. About five minutes for Afflalo this game, but no Amir. And meanwhile doing his level headed best to ice out JMAX. JMAX would have played several minutes less in this one if Dyess had not picked up his 3rd foul in the 2nd quarter.


Tricky? I liked Mr. Sneaky better.

I agree though. We know what we are getting with Flip...AJ had a sprained ankle which apparently has healed but if one of the starters like McDyess gets hurt he just plays right through it making it worse.

Here is an unusual stat:

Chauncey played significant minutes, had a nice game, and didn't attempt a 3-pointer.

I noticed that he passed on a lot of the threes in transition that he would normally take.

The reason I do not look at the boxscore is that I want to get my impressions from the game down while they are still fresh in my mind.
Lee, you keep doing whatever you need to keep your impressions fresh. I support you in this endeavor.

Whoa....you'd think I had changed by username like 6 times reading this thread....:sssh:

Wonder why Flip can't mix and match.

He doesn't have it. That ingredient that enables a coach to recognize chemistry. Remember the synergy that Arroyo and McDyess had? Flip never would have recognized that.

In all sincerity, eventually Rip or Tay is going to have to get out of the starting lineup. No way on earth should we ever have any player shoot 5-20!!! We are too deep, versatile and talented to allow that to happen. You guys watch players- I watch plays. The ball rarely gets swung to the weakside on a possession, and too many times in a game there is too much one on one play. This is all coaching. There is not one single coach in the history of hoops that can stop these tendencies that hoopers naturally have, but I'll be darn if a coach has to accept that.

Because this team no longer shares the ball and makes the extra pass, players games' are getting marginalized. Dyess & Tay's game are suffering because CB & Rip keep trying to prove they are the best backcourt in the NBA.

We are unstoppable when Tay is on, we are a legit contender when he's at his best. When CB and Rip are at their best we are beatable and not champions. To be a champion we cannot afford for Tay's game to get froze out by Fake-A$z Batman and Robin.

PS I don't know if anybody else has noticed but Dyess has begun to find his groove and rhythm, yet we can only seem to get this guy 6-7 shots???? Rip needs to accept a Ginobli, Terry, Barbosa, 6th man role.

Lee, you keep doing whatever you need to keep your impressions fresh. I support you in this endeavor.

Yeah, one thing I avoid is rewatching the previous game during commercials, or reviewing the current game during commercials. It gets too confusing that way. Instead, I watch another team, or maybe a movie if none of the other teams I follow are playing. (Toronto, Orlando, and Memphis.)

PS I don't know if anybody else has noticed but Dyess has begun to find his groove and rhythm, yet we can only seem to get this guy 6-7 shots???? Rip needs to accept a Ginobli, Terry, Barbosa, 6th man role.

Maybe Dyess in the starting lineup isn't working? No wonder he wants to come off the bench...the starting lineup doesn't feed the hot hand.

This team is not playing the right way.

Just think how low we'd be if we were Bulls fans.

KGREG, I feel you on the ball reversal. Sheed is the only one who'll do it. The rest kill it at the top of the key. Amazingly, not only don't they reverse the ball, but they won't throw it back into the post either.

I would like to see Rip come off the bench. I think it would help keep the starters minutes down and develop the bench. After the first few games I thought Rip could be DET's Manu. Then I saw Rip play this year. Ginobli can finish strong at the hoop almost at will, play good D and get under players skin. Rip can't finish at the basket, fouls continually on D and lets people get under his skin all the while denying it. It's Rip against the world.

From the good to the bad DET has no identity, no concepts to guide them. Every game is a blank slate. They exploit whatever mismatches the starters have (The good), but they have no rotation and no set principles on either end of the floor. This is why their bench has difficulty contributing. There is no A to B to C type flow for them to cling to. The need to excel in the same formless read and react model that the starters can. If they were that good they wouldn't be coming off the bench.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that our starters as a group are about +7 points per game. Rip leads that group.

They are doing a lot of things right.

Rip had 1 bad game, but he got so many good looks, that I can't fault him for thinking that he could get it going. If he would have made all those chip ins, then he would have shot 50% and it would have been another W for us.


However, the prospect of sacrificing a little bit of the starting lineup's effectiveness to boost the bench intrigues me. To get an all-star player to do that would take more gumption than Flip is capable of mustering I'm afraid.

Whoa....you'd think I had changed by username like 6 times reading this thread....:sssh:

Different year. You can write off one post-season collapse but not 2 in a row. I think we all want to see something different so the results will be different. So far Flip has not been implementing the game plan they talked about over the summer.

The plan looked solid in the first two games.

Since then, it's been more same old, same old. Long starter minutes, inconsistent bench contributions and stagnant offense.

The worst part is playing poorly on a day's rest. We're better than that.

In all sincerity, eventually Rip or Tay is going to have to get out of the starting lineup. No way on earth should we ever have any player shoot 5-20!!! We are too deep, versatile and talented to allow that to happen. You guys watch players- I watch plays. The ball rarely gets swung to the weakside on a possession, and too many times in a game there is too much one on one play. This is all coaching. There is not one single coach in the history of hoops that can stop these tendencies that hoopers naturally have, but I'll be darn if a coach has to accept that.

Because this team no longer shares the ball and makes the extra pass, players games' are getting marginalized. Dyess & Tay's game are suffering because CB & Rip keep trying to prove they are the best backcourt in the NBA.

We are unstoppable when Tay is on, we are a legit contender when he's at his best. When CB and Rip are at their best we are beatable and not champions. To be a champion we cannot afford for Tay's game to get froze out by Fake-A$z Batman and Robin.

PS I don't know if anybody else has noticed but Dyess has begun to find his groove and rhythm, yet we can only seem to get this guy 6-7 shots???? Rip needs to accept a Ginobli, Terry, Barbosa, 6th man role.

great post

The problem with Flip is he wants to start his best five and play his best five believing the hype that they may be the best starting five in basket ball. The best five don't have to start and play together..because what's happening on this road trip is that they are all getting worn out together.

If this road trip turns out to be 1-4 or 2-3, after going up against teams that were 6-30? then I say Flip Joe needs to shake up things and have Flip start JMAX and dare I say Flip Jr or AA , and then have Rip and Dice come in with the second unit. I say Joe has to do this because I don't think Flip has the basketbalz to do it.

Changing the lineup allows Tay to get off with Sheed and CB starting the game and Rip and Dice can be the inside outside combo from the bench.

The problem with Flip is that he makes the starters play the first 9 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters as if he has no bench to put in. In the Sonic game he played Rip and Cb the whole 3rd quarter despite the fact the Pistons were sitting on 19 point lead...Why????

I am on the starter to the bench bandwagon, just look at JT and Manu for proof that it works Flip. Joe. :)

I also agree the starting line up needs to be shaken. I just don't think you can send Rip to the bench. The offense has revolved around his hot jump shooting since Flip got here. If you were to send him to the bench; the team would have LESS identity then they currently have; which is about zero. They would struggle horribly out of the gate in every game and be playing from behind a majority of the 74 game season (8 already done). This would take its toll on player development, minutes and I think team chemistry.

Tay is the one that needs to move to the bench. There is no identity for the bench yet. Stuckey has been out and AJ is still trying to get minutes. Tay could join this unitt and solidify them. Imagine Rod, AA, Tay, AJ and MAX on the floor together pushing the ball up the floor. The starters could set a pace and the bench would be able to come in and raise it a few notches. Tay could get some of those open court jams and still be able to back down in the post against a second team small forward when we really need a bucket(Free Chili). Tay could become the type of player that Sheed has become for the starters except at a different position. We would have Sheed to go to in the post or step out and take the three with the starters and Tay with the bench to do the same.

The more I write about it; the more I like it. Maybe needs its own thread to discuss?

Joe says Enough is Enough!

Flip Saunders is fired and replaced by Piston Bad Boy Bill Laimbeer.

At the press conference to announce the change, the team gives out free bowls of chili.

Bad Boy Bill steps up to the mike:
"I hope everyone is enjoying their free chili because it's the last time you'll be getting any from this organization."

At the press conference to announce the change, the team gives out free bowls of chili.

Bad Boy Bill steps up to the mike:

LOVE IT! Now that's what I am talking about.