Detroit At NewJersey - 7:30PM

TV: FSN
Radio: WDFN

Notes: 1st meeting of the season for the 2 teams. Detroit had the advantage last season 2-1 in the 3 games played.

Records:
Nets 7-7 ( 4-2 at home ) won last 2 games
Pistons 10-2 ( 6-1 on Road ) Won last game

Starters:
Nets - Jason Kidd, Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, Jason Collins, Nenad Krstic
Pistons - Billups, Rip, Prince, R.Wallace, B.Wallace

Team Leaders:
Nets: Carter 20.4 PPG, R.Jefferson 8.9 RPG, Kidd 6.8 APG
Pistons: Rip 20.5 PPG, B.Wallace 12.4 RPG, Billups 8.2 APG

Team Stats:
Nets: Points 95.9/96.5 Rebs 42.7/40.5 Assists 21.1/20.2 TO 14.9/13.0
Pistons: Points 99.3/91.7 Rebs 43.1/42.0 Assists 23.6/18.8 TO 11.8/14.5

Injuries: Nets - none, Pistons - Hunter

Latest ESPN Powerranking: Pistons #1, Nets #20

Pistons 93 Nets 83

BoxScoreAndPlaybyPlay - From nba.com (http://www.nba.com/games/20051130/DETNJN/boxscore.html)

I think this is going to be a tough game for us. Jefferson and Carter have always given Tay problems because of their strength, and now Rip will have to guard one of them as well. We may see Mo Evans get a bit more run tonite, as he may be more effective on one or both of them.

Our biggest advantage is at the 4/5. We have to control the interior to offset their perimeter game.

Should be interesting to say the least. So, who is going to get dunked on first and the most?

Should be interesting to say the least. So, who is going to get dunked on first and the most?

i've got to say ben will keep jamming on krstic along with rasheed. ben wallace will win this one for us 89-85.

I think this is going to be a tough game for us. Jefferson and Carter have always given Tay problems because of their strength, and now Rip will have to guard one of them as well. We may see Mo Evans get a bit more run tonite, as he may be more effective on one or both of them.

Our biggest advantage is at the 4/5. We have to control the interior to offset their perimeter game.

Well said Tbird, I too am not very comfortable with this match up.... Particularly Rip having to defend vince or rj since he is not only slim but doesn't have the ridiculous reach that Tay has to hender shots. His only defense will be to make his opponent work defensively and perhapse keep rj shooting jumpers. Carter can kill you inside and out so I don't like our chances with Rip attempting to check vc, we'd better let Tay try his luck vs him.
Kidd still is a premier pg in the league, but I think the fact that Chauncey is always an offensive threat gives us a bit of an advantage in that department (call me a homer but C-note is damn good ya'll)! Besides that we know we've got it on lock in the frontcourt, but young kristic should NOT be underestimated. The kid is fundamentally sound and offensively aggressive, if sheed takes him for granted he'll have #36 in foul trouble before he knows it. If Detroit can control the glass and limit their fast breaks we should be in good shape, with the finishers they have letting them run too much is a HUGE no no!
By the way it would be very cool and interesting to see what young DMC can do against kristic and collins.... GO PISTONS!

Well said Tbird, I too am not very comfortable with this match up.... Particularly Rip having to defend vince or rj since he is not only slim but doesn't have the ridiculous reach that Tay has to hender shots. His only defense will be to make his opponent work defensively and perhapse keep rj shooting jumpers. Carter can kill you inside and out so I don't like our chances with Rip attempting to check vc, we'd better let Tay try his luck vs him.
Kidd still is a premier pg in the league, but I think the fact that Chauncey is always an offensive threat gives us a bit of an advantage in that department (call me a homer but C-note is damn good ya'll)! Besides that we know we've got it on lock in the frontcourt, but young kristic should NOT be underestimated. The kid is fundamentally sound and offensively aggressive, if sheed takes him for granted he'll have #36 in foul trouble before he knows it. If Detroit can control the glass and limit their fast breaks we should be in good shape, with the finishers they have letting them run too much is a HUGE no no!
By the way it would be very cool and interesting to see what young DMC can do against kristic and collins.... GO PISTONS!

don't doubt rip man. he is not a defensive reliability, hell he is actually a reliable defender now.

I think this is going to be a tough game for us. Jefferson and Carter have always given Tay problems because of their strength, and now Rip will have to guard one of them as well. We may see Mo Evans get a bit more run tonite, as he may be more effective on one or both of them.

Our biggest advantage is at the 4/5. We have to control the interior to offset their perimeter game.

Jefferson is having an all-star type of season. A near 20/10 guy avg around 19 PPG and 9.3 RPG.

The Tay/Jefferson matchup will be one of the keys to this game.

The other one is taking advantage of our size ( make them pay for Krystic ) and hoping Arroyo is not burned too bad by Kidd when that matchup happends. This would have been a great game for Hunter.

Have to slow this game down and not try to out-break them.

Good test to see if our D is in fact still in charge over trying to out-score the other team.

It seems like only yesterday that NJ was the elite of the East and Detroit was trying to break in. Interesting that it seemed to be Detroit's triumph over them in the EC finals two years ago that broke their backs (along with aging bones). Tonight should be an interesting game even if only from a historical perspective. (of course there are also other reasons that make this a compelling matchup)

i'm sorry, we're outshooting them 60 % to 38 % and we're only up 5?!

what's up with that?

k, well, now it's about even shooting anyway so forget it... nice work, bench >:(

Pistons playing like CRUD in the second. Evans and Darko have no business being on the court. Let's see Delfino.

The NJ announcers are killing me...

The main problem with Evans is that he's just too short to guard Carter. He stands no chance. Vince just turns around and pops right over him. Same thing he's doing against Rip.

I'm glad there are no scoring droughts this season. C'mon Joe D, we need KG.

As others have said, I wouldn't mind seeing Maxiell in there. Ball hog or not, at least the guy has a nose for the hoop.

As others have said, I wouldn't mind seeing Maxiell in there. Ball hog or not, at least the guy has a nose for the hoop.
And he's leading the team in FG%...

The main problem with Evans is that he's just too short to guard Carter. He stands no chance. Vince just turns around and pops right over him. Same thing he's doing against Rip.
Not a lot of guys can defend "the traitor", but Evans seems totally lost on switches. This is bizarre but I am not seeing any chemistry from the bench at all. Offensively, they're brutal at times, and defensively they live and die by forced turns.

The Pistons better raise their game. This is turning into a snooze fest.

i'd like to see them stay with sheed a little bit more in the second half. seems like he started out on fire and then they just sort of forgot about him

McCoskey say this to Blaha at halftime: "I hope the fans don't boo Larry, but I know they will ... Divorces are ugly. I should know because I've had a few of them myself."

Thanks for that unwanted glimpse into your life, Chris.

Hugely disappointing performance by the bench, giving away our entire 12-point lead.

Well, better to find this out now so there's plenty of time before the trade deadline to make a move if necessary.

Not a lot of guys can defend "the traitor", but Evans seems totally lost on switches. This is bizarre but I am not seeing any chemistry from the bench at all. Offensively, they're brutal at times, and defensively they live and die by forced turns.

The Pistons better raise their game. This is turning into a snooze fest.

It really is a stark contrast to what we've seen earlier this year, just a short time ago. They're playing like strangers out there. Antônio looks lost. Darko had so much more confidence and acted like he belonged in the preseason. Then here in the regular season he's playing so tentative like he has no idea what he's doing.

If our bench doesn't get it together, we're going to have to run our starters into the ground just to compete game in-game out. Just like last year.

It's really disheartening.

You guys know how I feel about most of the benchers. But Evans I thought might really be an X-factor. Thus far, he's not even Lindsey Hunter. Those spot up 3s he was nailing in the preseason are not going to be available during the regular season and probably even less often in the playoffs.

I don't know what it is, but that bench is weak. Maybe even weaker than last year. I REALLY want to see Delfino play today...

I know of no team in the league where the gap between the starters and the bench is even as close to as large as it is on our team.

I'm wondering if J-Max deserves a crack as well as Delfino. Just trying to find something that works. The bench played a combined total of 29 minutes in the first half and were 0-6 for 0 points. That ain't gonna get it done.

Kudos to the starters for pulling us back even, but we can't keep this up all year.

on the plus side in this otherwise kind of dismal effort thus far: 21 fg's on 16 dimes

What a great night of TV bball! :)

P's & Nets (a close one, but Fred's gettin on my nerves)
MSU & GT (a close one)
Duke & Indy (?)

You know, these NJ announcers are growing on me. I'm watching the YES network.

Any observations on Ben Wallace, my people? Someone give me their take and then I'll share mine.

now'll come the test, right? cause the bench is gonna have to play at least a few minutes in the 4th. the starters gave them back a lead...let's see what happens. i agree that we ought to see delfino and maxy. i'm not saying permanently necessarily (thoughh maybe that too), but the guys in front of them didn't earn any more time tonight.

oh ok. why is the bench weakness totally blamed on darko and evans?? mcdyess is supposed to be the # 1 scorer off the bench and he hasn't showed up. everyone's offense should feed off of him. i think it's time to run the offense through darko.

flip needs to rethink his use of the bench. in the preseason he was bringing them in as a unit. he was giving them consistent minutes and letting them work out the kinks. they were responding by holding and extending leads and starting to grow some chemistry. now he's broken them up and barely giving delfino minutes.

oh ok. why is the bench weakness totally blamed on darko and evans?? mcdyess is supposed to be the # 1 scorer off the bench and he hasn't showed up. everyone's offense should feed off of him. i think it's time to run the offense through darko.

flip needs to rethink his use of the bench. in the preseason he was bringing them in as a unit. he was giving them consistent minutes and letting them work out the kinks. they were responding by holding and extending leads and starting to grow some chemistry. now he's broken them up and barely giving delfino minutes.

i agree with this point about the blame (though I don't know if running the offense through darko is a solution at this point...maybe it is). and i definitely agree that bringing them in as a unit, as in the preseason was working much better for them.

oh ok. why is the bench weakness totally blamed on darko and evans??
Because I didn't feel honest blaming it all on Darko. ;)

mcdyess is supposed to be the # 1 scorer off the bench and he hasn't showed up.
Arroyo hasn't had any help, that's for sure. I think Carlos is playing pretty good tonight.

i think it's time to run the offense through darko.
I think it's time for Darko to find a new hairstylist.

Would be interested in hearing your Ben observations. I'm listening on radio so I can't tell you much. : )

Ben looks like the Carlisle era Ben. He's totally neglected in the offense. That's IMHO has led to him not setting hard screens, and his defense seems to have dropped off. He's mis-timing his jumps (when he bothers to jump).

If Ben isn't hurt, he's getting hurt in this game plan. Sheed chucking 3s without conscience and no one running a play for Ben. It just ain't right. Chauncey, Rip and Tay aren't even giving Ben a look...

Btw, that baseline ref should be fired. He's blown at least a dozen calls (both ways). He's really just that incompetent.

From what I see on the game cast, the bench ain't helping any.

Guys, you gotta step up!

Dyess, 2 points? 2 rebs in 14 minutes? I can't believe I actually drafted this guy in the fantasy league along with Darko. But they're both dropped now pending their performances. Had high hopes but right now they ain't playing well is an understatement.

Arroyo is doing ok, IMO. Somebody aside from the starters have got to step up. I say put JMax, and Amir in for somebody, Delfino to the IL. Darko get your feet to the shoulders wet, man.

AAuggghhh, damn, I'm having a pretty bad day. Exams, life. Hope the Pistons pull out a win to make it better.

....I just got home and it looks like we'll get a toughee on the road. We got 4 allstar wannnabe's out there with THE allstar. Is Ben really gonna matter if he doesnt get shots or are u just talking about tonight?..my bruddah?

I thought Blaha mentioned Ben was hurt (sprained ankle or something). Maybe that's why.

He does seem to be getting nicked up more the last couple of years. Never misses a game, but not perhaps quite as effective day-in day-out as before as a result.

....I just got home and it looks like we'll get a toughee on the road. We got 4 allstar wannnabe's out there with THE allstar. Is Ben really gonna matter if he doesnt get shots or are u just talking about tonight?..my bruddah?
That was my 100th post!!!!Woo-hoo! My bruddahs!

....I just got home and it looks like we'll get a toughee on the road. We got 4 allstar wannnabe's out there with THE allstar. Is Ben really gonna matter if he doesnt get shots or are u just talking about tonight?..my bruddah?
Well, something ain't right, mah brudder. Ben is playing lousy. He's been abused by Marc Jackson, he can't clean the defensive boards, and the majority of his jumps have been mis-timed.

Now if I had to pick a favorite Piston, it's a toss up between Ben and Sheed, so this isn't hating. He's just playing LOUSY and I think it might be because he is being ignored...

Ben rolled his ankle at the end of the first/beginning of the second quarter. It looked really painful. So that's one reason why he looks a little slow in this game. Plus you add to that the fact that he's already playing on a bad wheel, from when he hurt his foot a few games ago.

I agree, as far as how he looks on the offensive end. There is a big drop-off from last year to this year.

It's always good to have him active on the offensive side of the ball. But it just seems that every time they dump it to him in the post it's like going into a black hole. It just turns out to be a waste of a possession.

Well, something ain't right, mah brudder. Ben is playing lousy. He's been abused by Marc Jackson, he can't clean the defensive boards, and the majority of his jumps have been mis-timed.

Now if I had to pick a favorite Piston, it's a toss up between Ben and Sheed, so this isn't hating. He's just playing LOUSY and I think it might be because he is being ignored...

I'm not worried about Ben, but I'm going to officially jump on the bandwagon with everyone who has been worrying about the bench. Uggghhh..I almost think they should sign...No...I won't say it..I won't think it...I hate that guy!

by the starters. Outboarded again, though. Major minutes for the starters. Looks a lot like last season. No Delf, no Max, Darko for only 5 minutes. Time to try something else, Flip.

Well, something ain't right, mah brudder. Ben is playing lousy. He's been abused by Marc Jackson, he can't clean the defensive boards, and the majority of his jumps have been mis-timed.

Now if I had to pick a favorite Piston, it's a toss up between Ben and Sheed, so this isn't hating. He's just playing LOUSY and I think it might be because he is being ignored...I think Ben is conserving as he gets older. But if UncleCliffy can get 19 minutes, darko should too. We got to get 30-34 minimum minutes from Ben this year...as for the best guards in the league tonight,,,Rip with 30 on :cool:ONLY 14 shots/CB with 8 assists and 0 TO'S!!!!! I love my team!

Thanks for the heads up Zo. I missed a little of the first setting up my new tv/monitor and these NJ announcers dont give the same kinda reports George does.

We're extremely reliant on Ben on the glass. When he doesn't or can't rebound, it shows.

Hell of a game by Rip. Hell of a game. Nice work by Tay as well.

Because I didn't feel honest blaming it all on Darko. ;)


Arroyo hasn't had any help, that's for sure. I think Carlos is playing pretty good tonight.


I think it's time for Darko to find a new hairstylist.

i agree darko may need to go back to the streaks. but tonight i'll agree the bench did not play well except carlos arroyo.

by the starters. Outboarded again, though. Major minutes for the starters. Looks a lot like last season. No Delf, no Max, Darko for only 5 minutes. Time to try something else, Flip.
He wants to win in a big way, true, But i can count the games we wont see the bench- Nets, Bulls, Heat, Cavs, Pacers and all western conferrence road games. But I aint mad at 11 and 2! Rip/Bill needs 2 start In AllStar game down heya in H-town..my bruddahs!:amen:

He has officially surpassed J-Kidd.

Our starters basically outscored theirs by 22. Subtract the bench and it's a blowout.

I hope our guys really lay one on NY so our starters can get some rest. No Wiz repeats.

Ben looks like the Carlisle era Ben. He's totally neglected in the offense. That's IMHO has led to him not setting hard screens, and his defense seems to have dropped off. He's mis-timing his jumps (when he bothers to jump).

If Ben isn't hurt, he's getting hurt in this game plan. Sheed chucking 3s without conscience and no one running a play for Ben. It just ain't right. Chauncey, Rip and Tay aren't even giving Ben a look...

Btw, that baseline ref should be fired. He's blown at least a dozen calls (both ways). He's really just that incompetent.

Lots of questions. Ben doesn't look pumped like usual...maybe he is hurting? CB calling most of the plays now? Maybe there are none for Ben under Flip? Maybe Ben misses LB cause his system emphasized the D (Ben's specialty) and LB wanted him to develop his O? Does Ben no longer feel like a contributor?

With Ben being FA this coming summer, JD should do his best to make sure he's happy here, even if it means leaning on Flip.

He has officially surpassed J-Kidd.

Our starters basically outscored theirs by 22. Subtract the bench and it's a blowout.

I hope our guys really lay one on NY so our starters can get some rest. No Wiz repeats.
He need all the prayer he can get...No one plays him better than The Bill!My Bruddah!

I think he had something to prove against Jefferson and Flip let him fight. I like that a lot...Cant wait til Friday night...(i plan on being just a little drunk that night)...my bruddahs!

Still great to beat Kidd and Jefferson. 11-2. Only 2nd to the Bad Boys November of 90-91 of 13-2.

We came out real sharp, doubling them up 24-12. First two guys off the bench were Arroyo and Dyess. Then Darko. Then Evans. I won't say Evans was the whole problem with the bench in that 2nd half. The fact that Dyess was passing up shots he normally takes, and missing the ones he normally makes, was also a factor. But Evans gave us nothing. Wasted time with the ball. Can't move without the ball. And can't guard anyone as tall as him with a strong game. They did have him on McInnis for a moment. He can do that fine. But putting him on Carter simply broke Carter loose. For those who might disagree with these somewhat harsh observations on Evans, note the coach only played him 2 minutes in the 2nd half. Further, Flip briefly did just what I mentioned a couple days back. He played Billups and Arroyo together in the backcourt. And that combo did good. I don't know why Flip went away from it and got Evans back in the game. I guess maybe he is giving Evans every chance he can. Hurry, get that out of the way. Give Delfino a good long turn now. (Or go to a three guard rotation.)

Ok, we did not pound them inside. As they are basically a very weak defensive team inside, they decided to really pack it in tight. So we shot what they gave us, easy, uncontested jumpers. And we were making them.

Speaking of jumpers. Rip hit a couple more threes. Up just at about 50% exactly on his 3 point shooting. I would say he has arrived as a three point shooter. I doubt the league will miss the fact much longer.

Rip was hitting everything he put up, plus Tay had it going big time. Tay scored driving, on spotups, and on a pull up on a fast break. Got the whole package going. And he hit one shaking off his guy. And Sheed nailed a few threes. And Billups was nailing his shots. And when they tried to guard the perimeter on occasion, Billups took it right in there for the score.

Ben tweaked an ankle, stepping on a foot as he drove in. Seems to be bothered by it. Lets see how he feels tomorro.

Arroyo hit an outside shot, though it barely rattled in. He also drove in and flipped one in. And he set up Dyess well a time or two, one of which Dyess nailed. Darko did not do a whole lot. A couple of rebounds. They did not go to him offensively, though he made one brief attempt at posting up. About what, 6 more mintues of experience. It all adds up.

Play of the game had to be Billups getting fouled and still making his triple, and then completing a rare 4 point play. The best trend of the game, a tie. Prince's continued interest in offense. And Rip's emergence as a three point shooter. As for bad trends, well the bench problem is easily solved. Quit playing Evans except as a defensive specialist. And only if that targeted player is getting hot out there and burning us. We have got to get a different player in the regular rotation backing up Tay or he is going to die from fatigue in that brutal 8 game stretch starting December 9.

11-2. Great start. But now, there are just 69 games remaining to this regular season. Time is not unlimited. Go to work coach. GO PISTONS!!!!!

So why do I feel like we didn't accomplish much? Ok, call me a pessimist, but I'm bothered by a couple of things.

1. We're evolving into a perimeter team, and we all know that those shots will either not be there, or will not fall, in direct proportion to how badly you need the shot. In short, I don't trust the perimeter game as our bread and butter.

2. I didn't like RIP's number being called for the dagger 3. When we've got thm on the ropes, and all we need to do is close the deal, 3's are risky, and could swing emotion.

3. The bench is in trouble. CA can't lead this rag tag group, Flip needs to really look hard at the roles, and who can fill them. Either that, or give the rookies a chance to step up and produce.

The good news is that the starting 5 is producing like the champions they are, and I'm just not worried about Dice right now. However, without any inside game, we're looking at regular season wonders, and playoff failures.

So why do I feel like we didn't accomplish much? Ok, call me a pessimist, but I'm bothered by a couple of things.

1. We're evolving into a perimeter team, and we all know that those shots will either not be there, or will not fall, in direct proportion to how badly you need the shot. In short, I don't trust the perimeter game as our bread and butter.

2. I didn't like RIP's number being called for the dagger 3. When we've got thm on the ropes, and all we need to do is close the deal, 3's are risky, and could swing emotion.

3. The bench is in trouble. CA can't lead this rag tag group, Flip needs to really look hard at the roles, and who can fill them. Either that, or give the rookies a chance to step up and produce.

The good news is that the starting 5 is producing like the champions they are, and I'm just not worried about Dice right now. However, without any inside game, we're looking at regular season wonders, and playoff failures.

And he was scoring from there. In this game, NJ simply chose to give us the outside shots. So we took what was there, and won the game. Knowing Larry Brown, he would have lost this one, insisting we go inside despite other team playing for this totally. Why? Larry would figure the practice going inside was more important than a win tonight. And perhaps be right. Or perhaps not.

We still have issues here despite the best record in the league. Once again we are falling into the same situation as we did last year. 38+ minutes per game for all the starters, because the bench has not been able to produce and contribute yet.:doh:

We are curently 23rd in the league in rebounding and tonight were once again killed on the offensive boards 16 to 6. :mad: uch!! Tonight the 3's were fallin for us, but what happen to our inside game? Did you see the points in the paint? The Nets had 48 to our 22:frusty:

Flip has to give the bench more minutes and that includes Delfino and JMax or they won't be ready at all when we get into those heated battles with the Spurs, Pacers, Cavs, Heat and ....Clippers:eyebrows:

I wonder if he'll be able to go Friday, and if it would be so bad if he can't.

I don't know if anyone remembers, but last year Dyess got off to a rough start and then came out of it when he got a few starts. Somehow he seemed to find his comfort level, which he maintained even when he moved back to the bench.

Maybe something like that could repeat itself and could be better for us in the long run.

80-50 by Phoenix. I don't know how that team can be so good one day and so bad the next.

I agree with whoever it was that said that CB has surpassed JKidd; although JKidd still has his nights -- his amazing 35-8-12 the other night against the Lake Show at Staples -- he no longer seems able to bring it every game. I think CB is the best point guard in the league right now.

Rip had a great night, as pointed out by several of you. He took a pair of threes and made both. He scored 30 on only 14 shots! A model of efficiency, especially when compared to Kobe's fiasco last night (he needed 33 shots to score all of 25 points).

Our starting five really is fantastic isn't it? I hope we don't wear them out....

I will get my great win out of the way. Actually Nets are a dangerous team and the Pistons did not let them get out and run. Limited the TO's.

Going along with LASAm/DRE. Lots of positive things happening this season. Lot of new surprises with the offense.

But you should not have to give anything up that you had before. The one-one D is getting back to normal but what about rebounding? Its starting to become a serious issue and its going to bite us against some of the better teams. Nets took 16 more shots to only 3 extra free-throws for us. Pounded on the offensive glass 16-6. That has to stop.

I know Ben was hurt but he still had 8 boards. Even at 100% strength the Wallace's are going to provide roughly 40%-50% of the total rebounding for any game. One thing I miss about LB is how he used to challenge everyone to pound the glass. We had these same problems the last 2 seasons with everyone expecting Ben to do it all until LB challenged the whole team to chip in and do their part.

Flip has to demand the same because thats what really got us over the hump. Seem to be falling back into the Carlisle era of everyone standing around expecting Ben to do it all. Have to make sure we keep the Team Rebounding ingredient that LB added to this team.

One the bench - that will work itself out. If they do not step up then expect some trades. There has to be some reason why certain players are not playing.

That was my 100th post!!!!Woo-hoo! My bruddahs!

Congratulations, but shouldn't your user name be... Bruddah HQ?:rockon:

IBut you should not have to give anything up that you had before. The one-one D is getting back to normal but what about rebounding? Its starting to become a serious issue and its going to bite us against some of the better teams. Nets took 16 more shots to only 3 extra free-throws for us. Pounded on the offensive glass 16-6. That has to stop.

I know Ben was hurt but he still had 8 boards. Even at 100% strength the Wallace's are going to provide roughly 40%-50% of the total rebounding for any game. One thing I miss about LB is how he used to challenge everyone to pound the glass. We had these same problems the last 2 seasons with everyone expecting Ben to do it all until LB challenged the whole team to chip in and do their part.


One the bench - that will work itself out. If they do not step up then expect some trades. There has to be some reason why certain players are not playing.

Max, if someone other than Ben challenged the boards more often, we would be going to the FT line more often. How many times in tight games that a foul is called going after loose balls and Ben "I hope I make this one" Wallace walks sheepishly to the FT line much to our chagrin.

The pistons are 8th in the league in FT shooting % despite Ben's woes. :doh: But the key stat here is FT attempts. They are 27th in the league in FT attempts. This may not worry some, but that means that we are not utilizing our inside game enough with Ben, Tay and Sheed and we are relying on the outside jumper to win games.

In the two games we lost, the Wizards made more FT's (38) than we attempted (34) . Same thing in the blow out loss to the Mavs, they made 27 FT's and we only attempted 19. We have to get the inside game going by attacking the rim, getting the foul and putting the opposing teams key or big men on the bench. We lost the Championship last season, because our key guys were on the bench and our scrubs could not win it for us....:mad:

Max, if someone other than Ben challenged the boards more often, we would be going to the FT line more often. How many times in tight games that a foul is called going after loose balls and Ben "I hope I make this one" Wallace walks sheepishly to the FT line much to our chagrin.

LOL that's funny cause it's true. :)

the foot that been tweaked was the opposite one he did last time, so he gets a free pass for tonight. i didn't like arroyo's game as much in the 1st half, he dribbled in and took some ill-advised running jump shots without even passing, but he did okay overall.

evans was just non-existant and carter exposed him - while rip played good D on carter, and tay surprisingly played jefferson very very well - jefferson used to physically abuse tay in the past. attribute a part of that to tay being a lot more aggressive on offense. darko didn't look great, didn't look terrible...just held down the fort.

i'm not concerned about the outside shooting. NJ knew they were outmatched in the post so they stacked it and hoped their strength - the 3 guys on the perimeter - could do a decent enough defensive job to win them the game. it's the gameplan i'd use. but hey we hit the open shots, and if they're giving it to us, do it until it stops working (which it never stopped!!).

oh and krstic is terrible, yer right micro on the blown calls. krstic seriously travels EVERY time he tries to post up, while throwing countless elbows and fouling offensively. he's awful.

i would've loved to see delfino and jmax in the game - at this point i think their energy could spark that 2nd unit. they haven't been playing that great overall, but they haven't been terrible (just inconsistent), so i'm willing to pass it off as one of their worse games and be concerned but not panicking yet.

Max, if someone other than Ben challenged the boards more often, we would be going to the FT line more often. How many times in tight games that a foul is called going after loose balls and Ben "I hope I make this one" Wallace walks sheepishly to the FT line much to our chagrin.

The pistons are 8th in the league in FT shooting % despite Ben's woes. :doh: But the key stat here is FT attempts. They are 27th in the league in FT attempts. This may not worry some, but that means that we are not utilizing our inside game enough with Ben, Tay and Sheed and we are relying on the outside jumper to win games.

In the two games we lost, the Wizards made more FT's (38) than we attempted (34) . Same thing in the blow out loss to the Mavs, they made 27 FT's and we only attempted 19. We have to get the inside game going by attacking the rim, getting the foul and putting the opposing teams key or big men on the bench. We lost the Championship last season, because our key guys were on the bench and our scrubs could not win it for us....:mad:

Good point.

Fortunately, Ben's FT% is up and IMO he looks far more comfortable at the line this year. Given that...I'd like to see Ben more aggressive around the hoop. He's become the offensive non-issue that he used to be a few years ago.

We DON'T take the ball inside enough and we definitely don't drive the hoop enough...and we don't have a willing slasher, short of Delfino (excuse me...I'm slapping myself cuz I never thought I'd admit he had ambition beyond thumbing his Playstation :redface: ).

So far this year we've been lucky. We have good outside shooters in CB, Tay, Sheed...and SURPRISE!...Rip's hittin the 3's! Ben's been relugated to picking over the trash in his usual spot. The Piston game has become outside-in instead of inside-out...IMO that ain't gonna work in the playoff run.

Just a 10 pt road win against superior team 3 years ago. We passed them and they just ate our dust. You guys post like women before a wedding. Oh, the bench didn't blow them out, and Ben didn't get all the rebounds, what's to become of our team. If Bens on the floor don't get in his way it's his ball. He'll take it from his own players, ask Sheed. Other than that, very good posts.
The Lions are badly listing on stormy seas and you guy are orgying in a Piston lovefest. Have a good night.

Look, some of these issues are trends. No one on the bench is going off. We are getting outboarded (and for those that watch the games occasionally outworked).

The high flying offense and increased production in transition is great. But I'm beginning to wonder if the Pistons have the weapons to compete with the big boys like Dallas and San Antonio.

No, I'm not jumping off the bridge yet but I am concerned. I know this game. I know what I am seeing.

Just a 10 pt road win against superior team 3 years ago. We passed them and they just ate our dust. You guys post like women before a wedding. Oh, the bench didn't blow them out, and Ben didn't get all the rebounds, what's to become of our team. If Bens on the floor don't get in his way it's his ball. He'll take it from his own players, ask Sheed. Other than that, very good posts.
The Lions are badly listing on stormy seas and you guy are orgying in a Piston lovefest. Have a good night.
The stone that always trips you is the one you don't see.

I thought that this game would be a loss in the regular season grind. Winning is significant. Winning without playing our best on the road is more significant. 7-1 on the road. The bench problem was there before and it is there now--nothing new. Don't know about Ben's injury. Yes, Ben can be used more on offense but I hope not too much more. Do we want to go back to throwing the ball into Ben early in the clock as we did often last year?

Don't know about Ben's injury.

He had his foot in a bucket of ice water in the FSN postgame interview and didn't think it was a big deal. We'll see on Friday.

Yes, Ben can be used more on offense but I hope not too much more. Do we want to go back to throwing the ball into Ben early in the clock as we did often last year?

??? What was wrong with that? It got us to the 7th game of the finals.

Detroitteam, I hope that the injury is not one of those nagging ones. On Ben's offense, we got to the finals last year but it was a major struggle and eventually we lost. A loss is a loss and we have to adjust. I thought that our offense was ONE of many reasons we lost. We didn't get a lot when we went into Ben so it seemed to me. That wasn't the only reason but our offense stagnated often. By the 4th quarter of the last game at SA, it basically shut down. We made stops but couldn't score. So adjustments in that area seem to be in order. I don't know what the correct mix (Ben's shots) would be but a repeat of last year will probably lead to another loss. Will Flip's adjustments be enough? And can we maintain some defense? I feel positive on those two questions. I don't worry as much about defense in the regular season which is a long marathon. What I do worry is about the bench. The bench needs to improve.

Look, some of these issues are trends. No one on the bench is going off. We are getting outboarded (and for those that watch the games occasionally outworked).

The high flying offense and increased production in transition is great. But I'm beginning to wonder if the Pistons have the weapons to compete with the big boys like Dallas and San Antonio.

No, I'm not jumping off the bridge yet but I am concerned. I know this game. I know what I am seeing.


I don't know. Have not played any great teams yet. Most of the teams have been good but not the kind of quality Pistons will have to beat in the post-season. It is concerning how so many opponents have been looking like Dennis Rodman on the boards against us. Give up those kind of numbers in the post-season and it will be a short run.

Some tweaking to do but at least the Pistons are padding the wins against teams they are supposed to beat this season.

another good game coming from the best starting 5 in this league.
But I can't feel happy about wins in which the starters have been overplayed and the bench showed nothing.
None of them was able to produce.
Tay had to play another 40+ game, so did Rip.
On the long run, this is gonna cost the players needed power (remember last years playoffs)

Ben rolled his ankle at the end of the first/beginning of the second quarter. It looked really painful. So that's one reason why he looks a little slow in this game. Plus you add to that the fact that he's already playing on a bad wheel, from when he hurt his foot a few games ago.

I agree, as far as how he looks on the offensive end. There is a big drop-off from last year to this year.

It's always good to have him active on the offensive side of the ball. But it just seems that every time they dump it to him in the post it's like going into a black hole. It just turns out to be a waste of a possession.

I don't recall this being pointed out before, but it's absolutely true. Ben is quite often a black hole with the ball.

The time to get Ben the ball is when he's been neglected and he has a lane to the basket. Please don't give him the ball (at least not very often) when he's got to create a shot for himself.

Once he starts backing down his defender, the play is over. No one is going to double him, so there is usually no one open that he can pass to. Result, Ben shoots a fade away jumper. I'll take that every time if I'm the opponent.

Give me the back door lobs to Ben, not his post up game. You don't see the spin move and dunk very often.

None of them was able to produce.
Tay had to play another 40+ game, so did Rip.
On the long run, this is gonna cost the players needed power (remember last years playoffs)

i understand what you're saying, but if you're in your prime and can't play 42 minutes on 3 days rest you shouldn't be in the league. it would be more of an issue if this was a back-to-back, but the Pistons have a plenty of time to recover before Friday.

i know people won't want to hear this. but this is why i say we don't break the bank to pay ben. this is just a preview of what a ben with no athleticism left would be like. 1 knee or severe ankle injury and ben has no other game to justify the paycheck. where webber had height and a jump shot to help his game after the injury. mcdyess has height and a jumper. well he used to have a jumper ben has no jumpshot. paying him all that money is just too risky at his age.

i can't believe people are calling for ben to get more touches. he absolutely stinks in the post. only 1 poster got it right ben should score off passes not off shots he creates himself.

the bench didn't do well last night. i wonder why evans is getting so many chances to play. i don't think delfino's defense on the nets could have been worse. i'm ready for delfino to get his shot. he's a much better offensive player than evans in my opinion.

Dennis Rodman had a game similar to Ben's and he never broke down. You can't forecast the future. Ben keeps himself in top shape so he should hold up like Rodman. If he half-assed around the court like Darko I guess the chances of his getting hurt would be much smaller.


Evans takes some ill-advised shots. Flip got mad last night after one he jacked up...I'm not a big Evans fan. I'm with you on seeing more of Delfino.

Well according to Lee.. the Detroit Evan's did very poorly last night.... if it wasn't for Evans the bench would have dominated... we need to ship Evans to Hunter land right now!... cause he can't play all five of the other teams bench... good thing for our other 4 bench guys though... they were just innocent victims of Evans brutality (he's prolly harassing them during time outs).
Darko was just this close (pinches fingers) to actually making a shot... more practice is all it will take.

I think I know where you are heading here. Rodney White is a guy that can guard all five positions and he is still accepting offers from NBA teams at this point (Thank God Miami hasn't snatched him up)

Darko made several shots last night from what I hear. They weren't exactly during the regulation game time if you want to get technical about it...but still he was making his shots.

I think I know where you are heading here. Rodney White is a guy that can guard all five positions and he is still accepting offers from NBA teams at this point (Thank God Miami hasn't snatched him up)

Darko made several shots last night from what I hear. They weren't exactly during the regulation game time if you want to get technical about it...but still he was making his shots.

No doubt Evans played like an odoriferous gasteral intestinal disorder (fart) last night...but for Lee to attribute 2 paragraphs in a supposed game report on him while making excuses for the others is a perfect example of an agenda.
Hopefully the forum recognizes a personal whipping boy vs unbiased reporting by now.... Evans has had some nice games this year... the Carter matchup was not a good one... we're lacking a backup lockdown defender at SG/SF... I trust that J.D. will address this before the deadline.

Dennis Rodman had a game similar to Ben's and he never broke down. You can't forecast the future. Ben keeps himself in top shape so he should hold up like Rodman. If he half-assed around the court like Darko I guess the chances of his getting hurt would be much smaller.


Evans takes some ill-advised shots. Flip got mad last night after one he jacked up...I'm not a big Evans fan. I'm with you on seeing more of Delfino.

i agree ben keeps himself up. but nobody was investing max player type dollars into rodman either. so there is a different risk factor.

i guess if ben developed a jump shot, passing skills, grew to 7', could hit free throws, played within his self on offense (see not turning your ankle while dribbling too much trying to post up) he could have a long productive career well into his 30's.

Or if a 7'er could clean the glass... hustle for looseballs... intimidate opponents...have a high shooting avg...and dominate every intangible area we might pay that 7' er more than Ben.

I'm not sure where the max contract idea came from... never heard this from anyone in the organization.

He should be good for a few years as long as we get him some help and we have. His minutes should be curtailed as the year goes along. A fresh Ben is a monster. I agree that he should get the ball moving to the hoop and not in a postup position.

Not a lot of guys can defend "the traitor", but Evans seems totally lost on switches. This is bizarre but I am not seeing any chemistry from the bench at all. Offensively, they're brutal at times, and defensively they live and die by forced turns.

The Pistons better raise their game. This is turning into a snooze fest.

yeah that happened here in michigan too. the nets radio is 1130 as well as the pistons and for some reason i was listening to the nets broadcast instead of the pistons.