ECF Game 3 Celtics/Pistons Sat. May 24th, 8:30 PM

The ECF comes to the Palace as Detroit now has HCA and the momentum. Another crucial game.

Can Detroit protect their house???

Celtics have yet to win on the road in the playoffs, and after losing their first home game this post-season, their confidence isn't likely to be very high. The overall problem for Boston on the road in the playoffs has been their inability to put a complete game togther. Against Atlanta, their problem was entirely on defense--they scored at about the same rate on the road in that series as they did at home, but they couldn't get any stops in the 4th quarter in Atlanta. Against Cleveland, it was a mix of things, sometimes a few defensive breakdowns, but more of a struggle on offense. They couldn't score when they needed to in Cleveland.

So, as long as the Pistons play a good, solid, complete game at home, they should be OK. They probably won't even need to execute as well as they did in the last 3 quarters of Game 2. I really think that's the reality, not just chest-thumping homerism. Maybe the Celtics will suddenly get a really big contribution from someone off their bench on the road--maybe--but nobody's done for it them yet. As pleasant a surprise as it was for us to get such a big game from Stuckey last night, there was at least the precedent of him playing big while subbing for CB against Orlando, both at home and on the road. The Celtics haven't gotten that much production from anyone on their bench yet throughout the playoffs, not even against Atlanta. They're going to need to do A LOT of things they haven't been able to do yet away from home.

I clicked around a bit today on one of the big Celtics blogs, and I have to say I'm a bit mystified by how confident most of them seem to be. I don't see any sign that they're even close to panicking, despite losing their first home game of the playoffs and still with no road wins.

From when I checked during the Cleveland series, and a bit of the Atlanta series as well, the prevailing mood on that blog was almost throwing in the towel after all the big road losses. Few of them thought they would actually lose either of those series, but the overwhelming sentiment after those road losses was a sort of resignation that they wouldn't be able to win it all. Each road loss brought lots of comments along the line of "they're not as good as they looked during the regular season, and even if they get past this or that series, there's no way they can win it all this year." But after last night? Almost nothing like that at all. There's a lot of "the Pistons can't play any better than that, but the Celtics can."

Well...I'm not so sure. Maybe all their confidence is stemming from the fact that Ray Allen finally had a good game, and maybe it just brings them to back to when all 3 of their stars were producing simultaneously during the regular season. They were usually close to unbeatable whenever that happened. But Allen went from averaging 9 PPG in the Cleveland series, and 9 in Game 1 against the Pistons, to 25 last night. His regular season average was right in between those, at 17. Is he really going to AVERAGE 25 PPG for the rest of this series? I sure don't see that happening. And even if he starts getting into double digits more regularly, surely they'll still need some of their role players to step up more, which they haven't done at home in the first two games, and are even less likely to do on the road.

Not that I'm saying this series is over, or anything even close to that. But I'd sure rather be where we are than where they are, especially considering their terrible history on the road so far this postseason.

If you look on the realgm forum, there are a lot of doubters on the Celtics board.

I would say that the Pistons have finally reached a level where the other teams and even their fans have a healthy fear of our team. Because we don't have the flash, it is sometimes hard for them to understand why we are good, but it seems to have sunk in now.

On the other hand, there is also a lot of their fans who think we just played our best basketball last game and we will stumble.

One other thing I'm noticing is that this series is pretty classy so far. The comments from the players and coaches in the wins and losses are very professional and respectful. Hopefully that lasts.

I was just struck by the disparity on celticsblog.com. The overall mood seems so different there in this instance from what it was when they were losing on the road to Atlanta and Cleveland. Of course, that might change if the Pistons get a solid win in Game 3, with the Celtics really struggling again on the road.

One other thing I'm noticing is that this series is pretty classy so far. The comments from the players and coaches in the wins and losses are very professional and respectful. Hopefully that lasts.

As classy as those a-holes can be. Players never shake hands until the series are over, but Sheed & KG have been after each game. Sheed chased down Doc Rivers to say something to him also.

Flip and KG have had a little embrace at midcourt just before the start of each game so far.

Doc Rivers also went above and beyond to downplay Rip's elbow to KG's face. He said something like, it should have been a flagrant 1, but those things happen in the course of the game out of frustration and Rip is a great guy.

Also, let's appreciate the fact that KG didn't overreact, fake injury, or generally be a wuss in any respect when he got hit. That probably saved Rip a game and some $$$.

Let us look at this from a positive point of view. When the fans throw the towels, Celtics won the series. So the fans were wrong. How about this time the fans are wrong again? They still believe which means this series is going to the pistons for sure.

Celtics have yet to win on the road in the playoffs, and after losing their first home game this post-season, their confidence isn't likely to be very high. The overall problem for Boston on the road in the playoffs has been their inability to put a complete game togther. Against Atlanta, their problem was entirely on defense--they scored at about the same rate on the road in that series as they did at home, but they couldn't get any stops in the 4th quarter in Atlanta. Against Cleveland, it was a mix of things, sometimes a few defensive breakdowns, but more of a struggle on offense. They couldn't score when they needed to in Cleveland.

So, as long as the Pistons play a good, solid, complete game at home, they should be OK. They probably won't even need to execute as well as they did in the last 3 quarters of Game 2. I really think that's the reality, not just chest-thumping homerism. Maybe the Celtics will suddenly get a really big contribution from someone off their bench on the road--maybe--but nobody's done for it them yet. As pleasant a surprise as it was for us to get such a big game from Stuckey last night, there was at least the precedent of him playing big while subbing for CB against Orlando, both at home and on the road. The Celtics haven't gotten that much production from anyone on their bench yet throughout the playoffs, not even against Atlanta. They're going to need to do A LOT of things they haven't been able to do yet away from home.

Let us look at this from a positive point of view. When the fans throw the towels, Celtics won the series. So the fans were wrong. How about this time the fans are wrong again? They still believe which means this series is going to the pistons for sure.

But it's not that Celtics fans were "wrong" in the last couple of series; almost none of them thought they would actually get eliminated by Cleveland or by Atlanta. However, as the road losses kept piling up, it seemed like they were getting more and more pessimistic about their chances of winning it all this year, which of course couldn't be proven one way or the other until their postseason ends.

But in spite of actually losing at home last night, a lot of those fans now seem confident in a way they definitely weren't in the last round. I'm not saying there's any predictive power in that; it just strikes me as kind of weird.

...as the road losses kept piling up, it seemed like they were getting more and more pessimistic about their chances of winning it all this year...

Thank goodness we don't do that around here when the team loses. :)

9.7 DR
All the Ps did was win one tough game. And it took everything they had. I don't think anyone has scored more than 100 in Boston P/Os. Their defensive shifting was superb.
Everyone guarded everyone. Rarely did I see a mismatch.
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I find it hard to believe celts can't bring it on the road. Didn't need to. But now, their backs are against the wall. 9.9 DR

I was just struck by the disparity on celticsblog.com. The overall mood seems so different there in this instance from what it was when they were losing on the road to Atlanta and Cleveland. Of course, that might change if the Pistons get a solid win in Game 3, with the Celtics really struggling again on the road.

I think it was because they played well, and they think we won with our offense which won't happen again. I know what you mean, the prevailing sentiment is that they will definitely take one in DET.

Also if you watched the CLE series, the last two road games they played wells so that's maybe a case for optimism. It is a little strange considering after the CLE/ATL losses they were having nervous breakdowns.

edited to add;

as for the game, we need a big effort out of Max before Sheed dies, and Dice can't walk anymore. Play Amir/AA Flip. We are at home!

I have no idea what to expect for this game. This team marches to the beat of their own drum (which seems to break alot; they could use a new one).

Going crazy with the edit button,

Also i wish KG/Sheed would stop hugging so damn much. They like have to find eachother after the game to whisper things to eachother. All the other players i think just walked off.

I feel like Sheed can't play properly when he has this i love you opposing player thing. It's like Ben again.

Also if you watched the CLE series, the last two road games they played wells so that's maybe a case for optimism. It is a little strange considering after the CLE/ATL losses they were having nervous breakdowns.

They didn't play well in Cleveland, certainly not on offense. They scored 77 in Game 4 and only 69 in Game 6. If they put up numbers like that in Detroit, we're not going to have much trouble beating them.

They didn't play well in Cleveland, certainly not on offense. They scored 77 in Game 4 and only 69 in Game 6. If they put up numbers like that in Detroit, we're not going to have much trouble beating them.

They had a chance to win 2 games there though, and in one they got killed by the refs. I don't think CLE scored much more than them. The score was Pacer/Piston esque.

I hope your right about the winning part.

Sure, they had a chance to win those games because they were playing good D, but like I said earlier, they couldn't put a complete game together. They couldn't score AT ALL in those games. I guess the newfound optimism among some Celtics fans probably comes down to Ray Allen finally scoring again, but like I said, it's gonna take more than that.

Good breakdown of what needs to be done in Game 3 (by both teams)

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8169000/Celtics-must-get-more-aggressive

If you look on the realgm forum, there are a lot of doubters on the Celtics board.

I would say that the Pistons have finally reached a level where the other teams and even their fans have a healthy fear of our team. Because we don't have the flash, it is sometimes hard for them to understand why we are good, but it seems to have sunk in now.

On the other hand, there is also a lot of their fans who think we just played our best basketball last game and we will stumble.

One other thing I'm noticing is that this series is pretty classy so far. The comments from the players and coaches in the wins and losses are very professional and respectful. Hopefully that lasts.

I am enjoying watching a real NBA team instead of that weird no PF 3-pt shooting Orlando team. This have been more fun so far, as long as we are winning.

Any picks?

Pistons 97 Celts 82

Also, let's appreciate the fact that KG didn't overreact, fake injury, or generally be a wuss in any respect when he got hit [by Rip's elbow]. That probably saved Rip a game and some $$$.

Yes, that was extremely sportsmanlike of KG, especially in an era when some players (e.g., Ginobli) have elevated flopping to an art form. Quite a contrast to what Nash did in last year's Phoenix/SA series when Horry hit him. Nash's overreaction backfired, because it faked out his own teammates and led to the critical suspension of Stoudemire.

picks? prediction? yeah, pain !
92 - 87 Ps

Pistons have to nut up in this Game and show a killer instinct. Preserve home court and this series is won. This series IMO will show how mentally tough the Pistons are. The Game 2 win provided a critical turning point from which the Piston can dictate the outcome of this series. The Finals is truly in their hands.

According to McCoskey, Max's time in this series is essentially done in terms of any major min.

And Flip likes Theo's production :faint2:

***BREAKING NEWS***


All reports from the Palace of Auburn Hills indicate from the training room is the distinct odor of Mangoes mixed with Hai Karate. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jtwh3nQP5Uo)

It seems that Arnie Kander is getting Rufus Henry ready to play Game 3.

***BREAKING NEWS***


All reports from the Palace of Auburn Hills indicate from the training room is the distinct odor of Mangoes mixed with Hai Karate. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jtwh3nQP5Uo)

It seems that Arnie Kander is getting Rufus Henry ready to play Game 3.
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We're not your friend guy.:yellowprison:

***BREAKING NEWS***


All reports from the Palace of Auburn Hills indicate from the training room is the distinct odor of Mangoes mixed with Hai Karate. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jtwh3nQP5Uo)

It seems that Arnie Kander is getting Rufus Henry ready to play Game 3.

That explains the extra shipments of athletic tape.

I still think the Pistons will only win 2 of 3 at home this series. This means they'll likely need to beat Boston in a Game 7 at the Garden. Given that they won Game 2, I think they will have the confidence to do it. And as nerve-wracking as that might be, that would not be a bad way to go into the Finals. Fatigue aside, this team would have some great confidence against the WCF winner. The Lakers are playing great right now.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it seems to me that dan crawford will be officiating tonight. He did not ref last night. I hate dan crawford and steve javie. They hate the pistons.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it seems to me that dan crawford will be officiating tonight. He did not ref last night. I hate dan crawford and steve javie. They hate the pistons.


Steve Javie called Game 2 and did a pretty darn good job of remaining impartial despite the crowd.

Perhaps Crawford will surprise us when we finally get him.

But it won't be tonight.

NBA.com: NEWS (http://www.nba.com/news/referee.html)

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We're not your friend guy.:yellowprison:

I'm not your guy....buddy!

>This game is in the bag if we score more than 100 or
>Hold them under 80 or
>Lee takes his daughter to the game...:)

Sorta ECF related. Did anyone catch this? about Dice.

Why Antonio McDyess is Pistons' X factor | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080524/COL08/805240317/1048)



After last year's Game 6 exit against Cleveland, he uncontrollably sobbed on a trainer's table. Most of his teammates were long gone from the locker room, but he remained wrapped only in a towel.

I realize that Chuck Daly is something of an icon around here, and that no one really likes to hear him criticized, but can someone please just let him know that his hair color & cut are just not good looks for him.

I realize that Chuck Daly is something of an icon around here, and that no one really likes to hear him criticized, but can someone please just let him know that his hair color & cut are just not good looks for him.
Daddy Rich has fallen a long way. The price of getting old ...

CHAT IS OPEN!!!


http://www.pistonsforum.com/playoff-chat/


:)

what an intro......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! !!!

We're getting schooled. Lets hope for a 3rd quarter revival.

I realize that Chuck Daly is something of an icon around here, and that no one really likes to hear him criticized, but can someone please just let him know that his hair color & cut are just not good looks for him.

Chuck's hair has looked crappy for years. But who cares? The man was the best coach we ever had, IMO.

But, you know, you could put Ronald Mcdonald hair on Flip and we would like him too if he could coach like Chuck. Problem is, Flip's hair is fine. The problem is that he coaches like Ronald Mcdonald! :yellowprison:

>This game is in the bag if we score more than 100 or
>Hold them under 80 or
>Lee takes his daughter to the game...:)


down 52-30 at the half....only way we win this now is if Lee took his daughter
rip 2-9 tay 1-7 ...no body going to the paint...looks like a repeat of game 1
their bench beating ours 19-14 and they got us 22-12 in the paint

maybe daddy rich gave them halftime pep talk..

73-49.............................sigh

same old pistons.

im not sure if i'd rather have fat cats like the pistons who think its fine to take nights off or front runners like boston who are world beaters unless someone punches back... im pretty sure the wcc will smack either of these two teams around whether thats la or san an.

Rants awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!

another great performance from #36.
this is the man who u think will be listed under the great star players to lead his team to the championship?

look at the list:

duncan
o'neal
bryant
ben wallace
olajuwon
jordan
zeke
bird
magic

who on this team is man enough to belong on that list? i'm serious...search your heart. u know this to be true....

Didn't figure on this game as a loss. But did figure splitting the first 4 games. We'll come back.

How disgraceful was that?

The one scene in this game that I won't be able to get out of my mind is Kendrick Perkins making a shot in Rasheed's grill and then throwing him the eye of the tiger stare as he runs back down court.

And Rasheed just took it.

This was capped off by James Posey giving the pistons players the same "bleep better have my money" staredown.

I was kind of embarrassed as a fan watching our guys take that without fighting back.

another great performance from #36.
this is the man who u think will be listed under the great star players to lead his team to the championship?

look at the list:

duncan
o'neal
bryant
ben wallace
olajuwon
jordan
zeke
bird
magic

who on this team is man enough to belong on that list? i'm serious...search your heart. u know this to be true....

Rodney Stuckey?

why did tay put his uniform on tonight??

i wonder if flip is willing to sit chauncey and start stuckey so we won't be in a big hole to start the game.

I turned this game off even before the first half ended. I'm really shaken by what happened. I was very confident after Game 2, but now I think their odds of winning the series just plummeted. I don't see how a team that blows this hot and cold can advance against a strong opponent like Boston.

why did tay put his uniform on tonight??




To show us why we shouldn't draft Carmelo Anthony?

At least we showed a bit of heart at the end.

I can't remember as poor a performance from Tay in an ECF game ever. Chauncey's leg must be bothering him more than it did in game two. That would explain his subpar performance and relatively low minutes. But Stuck took a lot of Chauncey's minutes and was excellent. The main factors to me were Tay's awful game and Rip's awful first half. We also did not involve Dice much in the offense (as we had in game two), but perhaps that was the result of a Boston adjustment after game two.

why did tay put his uniform on tonight??

i wonder if flip is willing to sit chauncey and start stuckey so we won't be in a big hole to start the game.


Tay actually played some decent D on Pierce, but I agree that he was completely useless on the offensive end.

The Pistons only real mismatch in their favor going into this series was Billups over Rondo. With Chauncey hurt, I'm not sure if they can win another game.

It is what it is. This is who these guys are. Maddeningly inconsistent.

I don't think Boston is a strong team, they are still hot and cold, they are still the same team that lost 6 straight playoff road games. One win doesn't change the world.

The sad thing is, for 90% of the game, the Pistons were punchless. Emotionless.

And the coach, oh, I just can't stand to see him stand on the sideline with that ho-hum stunned look. Even if he isn't doing anything wrong, it still drives me. Very few head coaches seem so out of touch with the emotion of the game. Which could work if you were a super genius and 4 time champion, not a guy who is notorious for coming up short of playoff expectations.

I turned this game off even before the first half ended. I'm really shaken by what happened. I was very confident after Game 2, but now I think their odds of winning the series just plummeted. I don't see how a team that blows this hot and cold can advance against a strong opponent like Boston.


I hear you.

Flip takes much of the blame for this one.

Someone tell me why the Pistons were trying to score so quickly with so much time left.

Why didn`t Flip tell his players (CB & Sheed) three`s weren`t needed, just stops and the easiest basket available.

If they didn`t shoot 3`s, it was a rushed shot, out of a timeout for crying out loud!

Anyway, this game was lost in the 3rd Q, boy we could have used some defensive pressure from AA in this one, I mean down by 24, it certainly wouldn`t have hurt.

And I agree, 4 games left and the Pistons must win 3, forget about it.

I don`t care where the games are played.

Anyway, this game was lost in the 3rd Q

I don't see how that can be true. They were down 18 at halftime! They lost it in the first half.

Damn man, this makes me think we won game 2 by pure luck.

COME ON, SHOW SOME BALLS MAN, IM SO DISAPPOINTED AND ANGRY AT THIS GUYS. They played like... *sigh* like always *sigh*. I can't believe it. I thought the 2nd game was going to be a mind-opener, but it seems that nothing takes this guys out of the hole. Specially Rasheed.

I wish i'm wrong, but they will keep on wasting opportunities for reaching the finals again. Remember this for next year. Hell no, they cant play 3 games full energy, they have to go down the hill. In the palace.

Dude, I'm ashamed. We talked so much about how good this team played... they've got schooled man, damn. We're damned on finishing 2nd in the conference. Unless...



Unless...


Joe Dumars appears again in the locker room and threatens all of the guys on trading them to the Grizzlies.


Edit: Yes... they lost the game not even finishing the 2nd quarter.

Well at least the fans in Ann Arbor and downtown Detroit, had something to cheer about ....and so did the fans of Boston and the employees of ESPN in Bristol, Conneticut and the Employees of NBA, Inc and it's chairman David Stern Esq.

The Michigan womens softball team won this afternoon in game one of the womens college baseball world series vs the VT Hokies, the Michigan mens Baseball team beat Purdue to win the big 10 tourney Championship and in downtown Detroit, The Tigers scored two touchdowns, a FG and a safety to beat the hated Twins and down by the river the Red Wings cross another x off the box and move 3 games from the Cup with a 4-0 spanking of the Penquin kids.

Pistons oh well they spot the Celtics a big lead and then come back on a nice 13-0 run to take the lead 17-15 and then took the rest of the half off. and that my friends was the story of the game. An 18 point halftime lead is not insurmontable, but the Pistons let the Celtic bench beat them in the second qtr and they just could not recover..

It is what it is. This is who these guys are. Maddeningly inconsistent.

I don't think Boston is a strong team, they are still hot and cold, they are still the same team that lost 6 straight playoff road games. One win doesn't change the world.

The sad thing is, for 90% of the game, the Pistons were punchless. Emotionless.

And the coach, oh, I just can't stand to see him stand on the sideline with that ho-hum stunned look. Even if he isn't doing anything wrong, it still drives me. Very few head coaches seem so out of touch with the emotion of the game. Which could work if you were a super genius and 4 time champion, not a guy who is notorious for coming up short of playoff expectations.
perfect analysis..thats my man...


but i saw a cavalierful look in Pistons eye tonight...again.....

these are the times i hate visiting espn or yahoosports

An 18 point halftime lead is not insurmontable, but the Pistons let the Celtic bench beat them in the second qtr and they just could not recover..

A halftime deficit that big is insurmountable unless (a) the other team chokes big-time in the 2nd half AND (b) you have Kobe, or someone about as good as him. Neither of which was true about tonight's game.

Start Stuckey. Bring Billups off the bench. We need someone who can penetrate to open things up for our other starters.

Also, start Maxiell for his quickness and his contribution to 1-2-2. After that, get Dice involved and cycle players often so that we can keep up a high energy game.

Boston is such a good defensive team that we can't solve them with a gimpy CB. We need to create chaos to get open looks.

Start game 4 off with a ton of defensive pressure. Press, swarm

Celtics just toying with everybody.
They had that second notch all along.
Your turn Pistons.

I thought that win in BOS was a little fluky.

I hate this. Just lose already. This team pisses me off.

Defense is constant. Offense will win you a game or two.

Also how long are we going to get outrebounded, and killed by Rondo until Flip plays AA or Amir ?? I'd really appreciate if Flip could five me a timetable.

Stuckey's energy off the bench is huge for us. What is it going to take for Flip to go to our defensive energy player. AA needs to take Linds place. Hunter is running out of energy and AA's size will be an advantage for him. MAke the change Flip!!!!

All I am going to say is Afflalo = DNP-CD = Loss!!!!! It is not that difficult to figure out????? :nerd2:

Start Stuckey. Bring Billups off the bench. We need someone who can penetrate to open things up for our other starters.

Also, start Maxiell for his quickness and his contribution to 1-2-2. After that, get Dice involved and cycle players often so that we can keep up a high energy game.



I`ll take it even further, start AA with Stuckey, and Amir in place of Dyess. That gives us a starting unit of AA, Stuckey, J-Max, Amir and Sheed, with Dyess, CB, Tay and Rip coming off the bench!

I know somebody who would love that lineup!

Very few head coaches seem so out of touch with the emotion of the game. Which could work if you were a super genius and 4 time champion, not a guy who is notorious for coming up short of playoff expectations.

You're right about Flip. He just seems helpless or even paralyzed when things begin to go badly on the court.

You're right about Flip. He just seems helpless or even paralyzed when things begin to go badly on the court.
I could understand helpless if I saw him trying to save himself.

But I'm sitting here, alone at home, trying to stay positive and keep from getting worked up, and I see this guy, and he looks like he's got his mind on something else, and being at the game right now is a big inconvenience.

Like he's waiting for a bus or something.

And it sets me off inside.

These people are going to give me an ulcer.

why did tay put his uniform on tonight??

i wonder if flip is willing to sit chauncey and start stuckey so we won't be in a big hole to start the game.

40-40-40-40-40

Those min will get to anybody. I don't care who you are.

And no he won't.

I thought the defense was fine for the most part - especially in the 2nd half. When you can't grab those boards or make shots - you are not going to win. Can't keep giving the C's all those 2nd chances. At least the Pistons won the 3rd and 4th quarters, at least gave the C's something to think about.

Billups should be ashamed after a game like that. what in the heck was his problem? Not only the poor shooting but what was up with all the stupid plays? I could not believe when the Pistons had the momentum, down by 9, but still had the momentum how he passed it to one of the Celtic players shoes with no one else near.

Any coach would be scratching their heads after that game. Just because he is not jumping up and down calling everyone idiots does not mean he does not care. You can't pin this one on Flip. Did he order Billups and Tay to miss 98% of their jump shots?

Stucky was the one bright light in this one, and how the team came back. Maybe they can keep using that trap in game 4. If there was an extra quarter to that game then I think they would have pulled it out.

C'mon people, its a 7 game series alright?

Anyways... if you see your guys are not responding inside the court... what could you do?
I, as anyone here, would swap their arrogant asses with the guys on the bench that want to win (except for McDyess, like Stuckey). But if you're the coach... and suddenly you put the bench guys... and you lose, damn, its going to be the hell with you.

Btw, whats going on with the cheerings? Oh, yeah, there was nothing to cheer about when you see your players giving the game away in the 2nd quarter.

Im angry as hell. Its too much suffering for them, and they seem not to deserve it. Seriously. We deserve an apologize.

Thats what they have to do, go out there and say: "We're sorry to you all. We're giving this series to the Celtics by default, because between losing in the court or in the papers, we would rather lose in the papers".

These people are going to give me an ulcer.

I'm very happy about the Wings and ticked (not at all surprised) about the Pistons...but earlier today I was reading some of the stories about what happened to families and individuals in China recently and this stuff just doesn't seem very important. Don't lose sleep over it.

You can't pin this one on Flip. Did he order Billups and Tay to miss 98% of their jump shots?


That is true. In fact when they interviewed him before the second half, he said something to the effect of "we just need to make shots." Flip was officially on the record as pro-make and the players vetoed him.

the play ill remember was ~3 minutes left, down 9, sheed let a rebound slip by him that was clearly his. he made no effort on it. reminescent of 06 when the heat beat us when sheed supposedly had a bad ankle.

the way garnett has gone off this series and sheed has done %%%%, im done saying that sheed could be as good of a player if he wanted to be. maybe that was true one day, but no more.

How many of us saw this let down coming? Reminds me of the 30 all time greatest game when the Crowd was geeked and the pregame warm-up was off the hook and then the players refused to participate in the party. :yellowprison:

Remember Rip's comments after game 2>>>"we're going back to the palace tied, you know, and our fans will be there you know, and we got the best fans in the NBA you know and that should be the key to our winning there, you know":sssh:

Well you all know he delivered a 2-9 shooting performance in the first half to contribute to our 18 point halftime deficit. I think Tay was 1-7 during that first half and CB was 0-1. if not for Stuckey and Max's 7 points a piece in the first half, they would have been down 25+.

Third game in the last 4 vs the Celtics where Piston could barely exceed 80 pointsand have lost all of three of them. We are not going to beat these guys unless we score 90+ and it hard getting there when you only have 32 at halftime.

That stretch with Allen and KG on the bench with foul trouble near the end of one and the first part of the second qtr was disastrous as we let Posey and Cassell beat us with those two 3's and also let PJ do more damage. Why we couldn't score during this stretch is beyond me.

Meaningless stats

points in the paint Celtics 36 Pistons 22
Rebounds Celtics 44 Pistons 28
Three pointers Celtics 5-14, Pistons 1-13

Game 4 >Maybe we start Stuckey and bring CB in to spell him? We are getting killed on the boards by KG and Perk...maybe we stick AJ in there to counter this??After all don't expect Tay or Max to get any. Maybe we play Alf to back up Tay instead of playing him 44 minutes a game...He had nothing in the second half.

They have to win games 4, 5 and six to win the series. Don't trust a game 7 in Bostespn.

I`ll take it even further, start AA with Stuckey, and Amir in place of Dyess. That gives us a starting unit of AA, Stuckey, J-Max, Amir and Sheed, with Dyess, CB, Tay and Rip coming off the bench!

I know somebody who would love that lineup!

Who could that be. Sounds like a genious.

I love how everyone freaks out after a loss. The reason we lost today isn't because of Flip. Tay and Billups sucked this game, they were horrible and Sheed wasn't too good either.

We got out rebounded by damn near 20 rebounds, 28 to Bostons 44. None of our starters were rebounding, we played like crap. What do you guys want Flip to do, empty the bench? Sure if we put Amir Johnson in he would probably get some rebounds but he would get burned on D by Garnett. Not to mention the foul trouble he would get in. I really don't think Amir would account for the missing 16 rebounds either, and even if he did the kid would get burned by Garnett, they would attack him he's just not ready to guard Garnett and the likes.

And all this AA playing is stupid too. He's not going to shutdown Paul Pierce, thats a joke. Not to mention that Pierce wasn't the one doing the damage today, Boston had balanced scoring. So what is AA going to do? Shutdown Ray Allen? He isn't doing anything either. He shot 5 for 16 and scored 14 points. Its hard to shut the guy down more then that. AA is not really a scorer either so basically playing AA would be pointless. No matter how much you guys want to believe playing AA would solve all our problems it wouldn't.

The reason we lost today is because we came out playing like crap and we never showed up to the game. Tay and Billups were horrid and the rest of the starters expect for Rip weren't anything special.

We need to come out with intensity and rebound the ball. Our starters need to show up, we're not going to win if they don't show up, plain and simple.

That is true. In fact when they interviewed him before the second half, he said something to the effect of "we just need to make shots." Flip was officially on the record as pro-make and the players vetoed him.

:pound:

After that game 2, Doc Rivers shot anyone down that wanted to talk to him about Allen's offense or offense in general saying i don't give a f. Our defense was awful. We win with defense.

What really killed the Pistons tonight was that they took way too many crappy three attempts and got killed on the boards. These problems are not unrelated.

Apart from the threes, they didn't actually shoot that badly. They got outrebounded 44-28. :yuck:

Now the Pistons have to win three out of four, with two games in Boston. It looks like the league may get the Celtics-Lakers matchup they've been praying for.

Game 4: Get the W
Game 5: Repeat Game 2
Game 6: Repeat Game 4

Yah, i know im talking as if it's that easy. But if sheed and the Pistons can find back that lost heart, passion and will, then we can get this job done.

Unreal. That didn't take long. That "comeback" attempt was symbolic of this teams contender status. High on fluff and short on substance. The pressure was gone but the poor reboudning stayed.

CB, Tay etc didn't score because player X shut them down, they just can't move the ball and get open. I meant to say this last game, but Tay must be the worst wing player in the L at feeding the post.

If you want a team to play good for one game and get people talking about them, this is the team. They can't play well for multiple games. One game un-did all the good of G2. Unreal.

Did any of the Pistons make any post game comments other than Flip? Were they ashamed or embarrassed?

Celtics sent Doc, Ronjo, Perkins, KG and Pierce to the podium, but all I saw up there for the Pistons was Flip saying that we didn't make shots...

After that game 2, Doc Rivers shot anyone down that wanted to talk to him about Allen's offense or offense in general saying i don't give a f. Our defense was awful. We win with defense.

I specifically remember listening to him talk about that and thinking to myself, "this guy gets it."

@Dre - I looked at the transcripts which I will post tomorrow. Nothing from the players (yet)

I'm very happy about the Wings and ticked (not at all surprised) about the Pistons...but earlier today I was reading some of the stories about what happened to families and individuals in China recently and this stuff just doesn't seem very important. Don't lose sleep over it.
I know bro. Over the last few years, I've had my eye on the bigger pictures a lot. Thanks for the post though. I really appreciate it.

What really killed the Pistons tonight was that they took way too many crappy three attempts and got killed on the boards. These problems are not unrelated.

Apart from the threes, they didn't actually shoot that badly. They got outrebounded 44-28. :yuck:

Now the Pistons have to win three out of four, with two games in Boston. It looks like the league may get the Celtics-Lakers matchup they've been praying for.

Not only did our bigs get out rebounded but not a single one of them went to the FT line????:confused: Which sounds to me like they were avoiding playing around the hoop.

Not only did our bigs get out rebounded but not a single one of them went to the FT line????:confused: Which sounds to me like they were avoiding playing around the hoop.

Right. At this point, the only way our bigs are going to get in the paint is if Stuckey drives and dishes to them or if they are getting offensive put-backs.

I didn't think Sheed was our main problem tonight. But that said, I think there has been a dropoff in his play in this year's playoffs as compared to previous years. This is just an impression; I have not compared his playoff stats for this year with those in the 04, 05, 06 and 07 playoffs. He will be 34 in September, and perhaps age is catching up with him.

Did any of the Pistons make any post game comments other than Flip? Were they ashamed or embarrassed?

Celtics sent Doc, Ronjo, Perkins, KG and Pierce to the podium, but all I saw up there for the Pistons was Flip saying that we didn't make shots...

Are they allowed to send that many ppl?

I didn't watch the presser, but if Flip really said that again, i'm glad i didn't; i probably would've broken my remote.

Also Doc always has gotten the importance of defense. He's tight with LB, and i remember his commentating throughout the PO's when he used to do our games back then.

And can someone explain the minutes in this one? Tay played more than Pierce? Sheed more than KG? We were getting blown out for a good portion of the game.

<p>Wow. In reading the comments, I now see their two jokers calling for people to edit their posts to fit their view of the world. Ain't going to happen, get over yourselves. Wise, you are a bad influence around here.</p>


<p>Fortunately, the timeouts, free throws, and other game stoppages corresponded to when the Wings scored their goals, so we did not miss any scoring in the Wings game. Good to see some team being coached well tonight.</p>


<p>Dyess hit some shots. Great. But we continually lost ground with him in the game. He hurts our D something fierce. JMAX hit shots too, and swatted shots, and basically was everywhere he needed to be. Meanwhile, our best rebounder, Amir Johnson, continues to sit. Saunders did shock us though by playing Amir nearly a whole minute to end the 2nd half. I imagined the whole team otherwise would have to come down with the flu on the same day to get Johnson in a game, but low and behold, there he was. Seems he does play for us afterall. No Afflalo, our best perimeter defender. Instead, we get Hunter, who was continually too slow on defensive rotations. Hunter, with no assists, and never anything positive on the offensive end. I will give Hunter this though, at least he has enouhg common sense to let Stuckey rock when Stuckey is on a roll. Prince and Rip could certainly learn something from Hunter in that regard. Forget everything else Prince did tonight, the fact he pretended not to be able to feed the ball to Amir in that last minute, the fact he could not manage to give Stuckey scoring ops while in the game with him, speaks volumes against him. I know, he would incur the wrath of Saunders if he were to help make a young player look good, but Prince was a young player once. Prince should realize that its his turn to give the young guys a chance.</p>


<p>Rip had a mixed game. Could not hit a shot sometimes, starting out about 4 for 14. But between getting to the line, and hitting a layup here and there and making a few outside shots in the 2nd half finally, he managed to score over 20. And his D on Allen was pretty darn good.</p>


<p>I won't slam Tay too hard, as he was guarding Pierce, but no, Tay has not had much worse of a game of late.</p>


<p>My friend kept slamming Sheed for lack of D (and the silly 3 point attempts as well), but I kept pointing out that Sheed was doing great on D, as long as he was paired with JMAX, and not spending all his time covering for Dyess when Dyess was in with him.</p>


<p>Now, here we are, down 2-1, having won one fairly close game. Just barely staying alive here, going Saunders way, attempting to exclude Afflalo and Amir out of the rotation. It will not work. Either Afflalo with start playing in the rotation again, or we will lose the series, and Flip will be fired. Now, I doubt Flip really cares, so what can Dumars do? Yeah, he can fire the coach. Its not too late. Short of firing the coach, Dumars is going to have to find some way to convince Flip that Hunter is well over 90 years old and really should not be playing over a good strong defensive player like Afflalo. Or convince him that we really should play our best rebounder, even if he is just a third year player.</p>


<p>Billups looked just as injured as game one. Anyone who failed to notice, Billups tweaked that hammy toward the end of game two. Yeah, like many have said, Stuckey should indeed be starting. But Billups coming off the bench, I say thats maybe not a good idea. I say let Billups heal, and go with a three guard rotation of Prince, Stuckey, and Afflalo. Play Amir to start at small forward to allow this to happen. Retire Hunter immediately, there is no future in playing this guy. Have Dixon dress as an emergency guard, and someone who can come in for offensive plays and knock a shot down.</p>


<p>Hayes, no way he should play, and he should not even dress. Neither should Herrmann. Since we have to dress 12 guys, between Hermmann, Hayes, the injured Billups, and Hunter, you might as well dress Herrmann, again, just to come in and hit a shot for end of quarter situations where you can sub in someone just for an offensive play. (Or if Billups promised not to do too much, you could have him dress and be that guy who comes in for just one shot on offense - he is no where near ready to play any D.)</p>


<p>Stuckey was getting the the rack at will pretty much, and making his shots, or making his free throws. Some of these drives were pretty awesome. Lots of ups, lots of fancy moves in air. Very exciting to watch this youngster play. And on D, he got steals. Not just the kind where you pick up a loose ball someone else caused. But the kind where Stuckey caused the loose ball, and picked the ball up too. And man did he ever know what to do when he got the ball - use his blazing speed to get right down the court and attack that hoop. If Stuck had made an outside jumper or two we could put this one in the great game category for him. As it was, just very, very good.</p>


<p>The bad? Basically that Flip is still trying coach with the main goal of not playing Amir or Afflalo. Some kind of silly goal. Nice to see him coach for wins instead. If only someone could get him to care about this team. Maybe on of you cheerleader types could maybe talk him into caring? Do us fans some good instead of trying to tell us what to write.</p>


<p>The good? Stuckey rocks. Jason Maxiell can play some great D, and knock down some terrific shots, just going up and over people to get those jumpers to go. Flip is under no law that requires him to play injured players like Billups, nor old players like Hunter. The next game could be different.</p>


<p>To sum, you cheerleaders, your way, no Afflalo and no Amir, is not working. Time for a change. Time to put a young, hungry team out there.</p>

Also Doc always has gotten the importance of defense. He's tight with LB, and i remember his commentating throughout the PO's when he used to do our games back then.


Yep, I am glad you are one of the few to see the genious of the Doc and his likeness to the Great One.

The bad? Basically that Flip is still trying coach with the main goal of not playing Amir or Afflalo. Some kind of silly goal. Nice to see him coach for wins instead. If only someone could get him to care about this team. Maybe on of you cheerleader types could maybe talk him into caring? Do us fans some good instead of trying to tell us what to write.


You are finally starting to get it. Flips no #1 goal is to not play Amir and Afflalo. #2 is to to win the game.

Can we get that game 4 thread up? I am fired up for that one!

Yep, I am glad you are one of the few to see the genious of the Doc and his likeness to the Great One.


Defense wins championships. It's not that hard.

Flip Saunders makes me want to kick a puppy.

Seriously. This whole "We missed shots" crap has got to end. When you get pounded on the glass and abused defensively all game long, I hate that Flip tries to use this as a cop out. When you shoot a crap-ton of jump shots, you're going to have plenty of nights like this. And on these nights, you can't bring half-assed effort.

This is an ACTUAL quote from his presser...
I thought we came out aggressive, we missed some shots. We had some good looks, we missed some shots.

They made shots early.They made shots early? It's pretty easy to make shots when they're wide open dunks.

I don't even understand why "making shots" is something Flip needs to be talking about. His job is to get them in position to make plays, get them playing hard, and playing as a team. Making shots is up to the players. Flip needs to concentrate on the other aspects of the game. Instead, by constantly talking about missing shots, it makes the players think EVEN MORE about all of their missed shots when they're on the floor. It's terrible coaching.

On the bright side... Rodney Stuckey is going to be the best player on this team in a year or two. Hell, if he was starting and given the keys to the ship, he might be the best right now. And it's about time Flip thinks about starting him. 3 games, 3 terrible starts. It would be nice to have Stuckey in there to get a layup or some FTs to "Break the ice" for this team. He is the one guy on this team that Boston can't contain.

Defense wins championships. It's not that hard.

We did not lose that game because of defense. Unless you want to count getting out boarded nearly 2-1 as part of defense? How many times did the Pistons nearly force a 24 sec violation only to miss the rebound and give them a 2nd scoring opportunity? I don't care how good you are, you are not going to win like that.

We did not lose that game because of defense. Unless you want to count getting out boarded nearly 2-1 as part of defense? How many times did the Pistons nearly force a 24 sec violation only to miss the rebound and give them a 2nd scoring opportunity? I don't care how good you are, you are not going to win like that.

It was the tale of two halves. Unfortunately, both tales were bad for Detroit. Boston shot something like 55% from the field in the 1st half en route to an 18 point half-time lead. In the second half, the D stepped up a bit (once they started trapping), but that's when they started giving up 2nd chance after 2nd chance. I would say poor D and rebounding were both large factors in the loss.

What is wrong with you guys?

Anybody with the game still available to them, rewatch the first half and start counting shots in the paint.


Then start counting misses in the paint, turnovers from the paint, versus shots made.


Then watch the Celtics run back in transition after every miss and score before the defense is set.

They scored off our offense, and just cause you guys don't get it, you get ticked off at Saunders for all the wrong reasons.


The key to scoring against good defensive teams like Boston, San Antonio, and yes, Detroit, is to increase the amount of scoring opportunities in transition before their defense gets set.

That all starts with a rebound. And it's the first thing Flip was preaching when he got here. Don't blame him for it.

And if you want to stop Boston from doing it on the other end, make them take it out of bounds once in a while.

It's pretty simple stuff, but every time Flip alludes to it, you folks get all up in arms about it. Nobody's in a tizzy when he mentions that the defensive reads weren't right on the part of his players. Obviously he stresses defense and defensive rebounding, but no one mentions that either.

So he said we missed shots. Guess what? We did. Rewatch the first half, and start counting the chippies, cause there were plenty, and they always led to great opportunities on the offensive end for the Celtics. And you know what? The greatest defensive gurus in the NBA can't coach you into lockdown defense after turnovers and missed layups.


In fact, it's a pretty well known adage that missing a layup usually results in a layup on the other end for the other team. Best defense on that is to make your darned layups.

Hate him for the right reasons, not the ones you don't want to understand.

Good post CloudWalker. Couldn't watch the game live but watched a bit of the taped action. Agree w/ your observations. This game was on the whole not a coaching failure. Missed shots, and rebounds led to their demise. CB was awful. This series is not over by a long shot. The Pistons can win Game 4 and take the fight to Boston for Game 5. Whether they will or are capable of it is to be seen. Sometimes when a starting unit has played too long together they can't get it up for the big games. This will have to be addressed in the offseason. Pistons remind me of a dog that occassionally hunts.

Can't say angry or disappointed and whatnot, certainly the players played ugly bad and lost the game, but I can't stand to watch the coach who left them out there to embarrassed themseleves and without trying to make any change like the same old same old way. I can't help to guess what was in his mind in the predicament, his next job perhaps.

I turned this game off even before the first half ended. I'm really shaken by what happened. I was very confident after Game 2, but now I think their odds of winning the series just plummeted. I don't see how a team that blows this hot and cold can advance against a strong opponent like Boston.

Well, I'm pretty sure that they don't blow "hot and cold" randomly. Isn't the same old story: most of the time, they blow hot when they are in the underdog position, cold when they are the favorites. In that case, maybe you can be optimistic, because right now it's looking like they are going to have to win game 7 in Boston to win the series and they'll be underdogs there for sure. (or alternatively, they have to win the next three games, and what are the odds of that? -- btw, that's still my pick: pistons in 6.

p.s. i understand that my predictive formula leaves out a few variables -- like all of them except one.

Billups' injury might save Flip's job. Flip can say Billups was hurt in the ECF and "my team was not at full strength." Might work.

As for the game, watching an old "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" film is about the same as watching these Pistons. We need Hyde to wreak havoc on the opposing team and beat them into submission. What we often get is the mild-mannered, but weak-minded, pontificating Dr. Jekyll. I don't think Flip has the serum to fix this split-personality team. Playing Spellcheck and Amir is not, alone, going to help this team win.

I said during the last round that Billups would not be fully healed until the offseason. To criticize him is poppycock. He isn't 100%.

I stayed with the hot hand last night: the Wings. I only casually watched the Pistons game, as I suspected they would come out flat. What were they down? 15-4? It's absurd.

Again, this team can get it all back on Monday and then who knows what to expect in Game 5?

On the bright side... Rodney Stuckey is going to be the best player on this team in a year or two. Hell, if he was starting and given the keys to the ship, he might be the best right now. And it's about time Flip thinks about starting him. 3 games, 3 terrible starts. It would be nice to have Stuckey in there to get a layup or some FTs to "Break the ice" for this team. He is the one guy on this team that Boston can't contain.I'm in agreement on starting Stuckey. The Pistons starting a game with energy & some penetration would be a refreshing change of pace. Plus, Chauncey must be hurting...he hardly seemed to be in the game during his 27 minutes...1 of 6, 3 PFs, and led the team with a -25.

Billups' injury might save Flip's job. Flip can say Billups was hurt in the ECF and "my team was not at full strength." Might work.



I disagree.

Flip`s firng will be attributed to his entire tenure here, not just this current season.

Hate him for the right reasons, not the ones you don't want to understand.

A lot of those missed shots were BAD shots, I mean terrible ones, like I mentioned earlier, bad shots coming out of a timeout.

The Tay, Rip and CB isos. WTF was that? They weren`t only bad shots, they were rushed and it looked like the Atlanat Hawks, not the veteran Piston team we keep hearing about.

Yes, there were a lot of easy chippies too, however, I hate Flip for not ripping whomever was taking those bad, rushed shots a new one.

As usual, he just almost looked away like he didn`t see what just transpired.

Is that a good reason to hate him?

well, I decided to make things easier for me: wait for game 4, let outcome decide judgement.

But on thought came to my mind and I think it is worth of sharing.

Why are they playing? This question has benn asked from starters countless times. For playoffs. For title. Every time the same answer.

Ok, I understand that their current group sometimes gets bored from regular season but I believe, many were ready to sacrifice regular season for getting extra punch during playoffs from starters.

Here we are: PLAYOFFS. But where is that much promised excitement from starters? Same regular season chocking. But these are PLAYOFFS, man. You are in you promised land. If being in PLAYOFFS can't motivate you, then what else?

It is very scary that professional athlete do not find enough fuel from playing in PLAYOFFS. No wonder that flip has hard times with players who actually have no playing desire.

If PLAYOFFS are not enough for you, then what else?

In this case things are far more gravy than "adjustments" or "go to the paint".

I don't even understand why "making shots" is something Flip needs to be talking about. His job is to get them in position to make plays, get them playing hard, and playing as a team. Making shots is up to the players. Flip needs to concentrate on the other aspects of the game. Instead, by constantly talking about missing shots, it makes the players think EVEN MORE about all of their missed shots when they're on the floor. It's terrible coaching.
That's embarrasing, Flip can't even admit the real reason we lost. Too many jumpers and getting crushed on the boards. Two things that can be corrected with coaching, but Flip wants to blame his shooters for "missing" easy shots. Some free advice for Flip:

Have Stuckey give a clinic to the starters on how to drive to the basket.
Have JMax rebound, or play someone else. His D was great, but 1 rebound in 20 minutes? Those are Uncle Cliffy numbers.
Play Amir and Afflalo.
Stop playing Lindsey. For every steal he gets, he makes two fouls, and allows 2 rebounds.

I love how everyone freaks out after a loss. The reason we lost today isn't because of Flip. Tay and Billups sucked this game, they were horrible and Sheed wasn't too good either.

We got out rebounded by damn near 20 rebounds, 28 to Bostons 44. None of our starters were rebounding, we played like crap. What do you guys want Flip to do, empty the bench? Sure if we put Amir Johnson in he would probably get some rebounds but he would get burned on D by Garnett. Not to mention the foul trouble he would get in. I really don't think Amir would account for the missing 16 rebounds either, and even if he did the kid would get burned by Garnett, they would attack him he's just not ready to guard Garnett and the likes.

And all this AA playing is stupid too. He's not going to shutdown Paul Pierce, thats a joke. Not to mention that Pierce wasn't the one doing the damage today, Boston had balanced scoring. So what is AA going to do? Shutdown Ray Allen? He isn't doing anything either. He shot 5 for 16 and scored 14 points. Its hard to shut the guy down more then that. AA is not really a scorer either so basically playing AA would be pointless. No matter how much you guys want to believe playing AA would solve all our problems it wouldn't.

The reason we lost today is because we came out playing like crap and we never showed up to the game. Tay and Billups were horrid and the rest of the starters expect for Rip weren't anything special.

We need to come out with intensity and rebound the ball. Our starters need to show up, we're not going to win if they don't show up, plain and simple.

This all makes perfect sense except one thing. The coach is the one that makes the substitutions. If the starters are not getting the job done; which they weren't; why leave them out there to continue not getting it done. This makes no sense!!!

It sounds like what you are saying is that if the starters are not getting it done; playing the bench will not help. So why has Stuckey been doing so well? He is a bench player.

What we know is that playing the starters 40+ minutes is not giving us more wins then losses. What we also know is that we can get some energy and buckets from Stuckey. What we don't know is what we can get from AA and AJ.

We need to find out now before it is an elimination game. Maybe they can have a similar effect as Stuckey and we will never know til we try. Who would have thought before CB went down that Stuckey could score like he does ?

We did not lose that game because of defense. Unless you want to count getting out boarded nearly 2-1 as part of defense? How many times did the Pistons nearly force a 24 sec violation only to miss the rebound and give them a 2nd scoring opportunity? I don't care how good you are, you are not going to win like that.

Getting a rebound at the end of a possession is part of defense.

edited to add;

Has Flip mentioned anything about the fact the were KILLED on the boards?!

We need to find out now before it is an elimination game. Maybe they can have a similar effect as Stuckey and we will never know til we try. Who would have thought before CB went down that Stuckey could score like he does ?It's too late...tomorrow IS an elimination game realistically cuz there's no way this group can win 2 of the final 3 games in Boston...especially after their pathetic performance at home last night.

You could see this coming a mile away. Seems like each time the Pistons play a good game, they follow it up with a real stinker. IMO it's re-tool time...the 'window of opportunity' has officially closed.

I disagree.

Flip`s firng will be attributed to his entire tenure here, not just this current season.

You're right. That's how it should be. I was simply saying that Flip might attempt to use the Billups' injury as an excuse. I agree with you that Dumars should not allow it. A lot of coaches would love to have three straight ECF trips, but if the Pistons don't get back to the Finals, Flip must be fired. And some of the Pistons players must be moved.

You mean, "if" he's fired.Is there really any doubt after 3 years of anemic showings in the playoffs featuring 'the best starting 4 or 5'?

Switch the Flip.

Is there really any doubt after 3 years of anemic showings in the playoffs featuring 'the best starting 4 or 5'?

Switch the Flip.

"Anemic" might be too strong a word. Anemic at times. I would say "inconsistent." They were anything but anemic in Game 2. Again, the Pistons have gotten to the ECF a lot. I agree, it isn't good enough, but I never bought that "best starting 5" garbage that the media put out there. I think the team bought into it, however. Right now, this is the 4th-best team remaining in the playoffs. The lack of consistency is maddening.

That's a catch phrase anymore that is meaningless. The media says that only as a hype phrase and then goes on and on and on about the other team. Notice how many times the Celtics, Magic and even the Sixers were on the highlight reel on BSPN?

It was the tale of two halves. Unfortunately, both tales were bad for Detroit. Boston shot something like 55% from the field in the 1st half en route to an 18 point half-time lead. In the second half, the D stepped up a bit (once they started trapping), but that's when they started giving up 2nd chance after 2nd chance. I would say poor D and rebounding were both large factors in the loss.

I was part of the big wush sound heard out of the State of MI in the 2nd quarter as everyone was flipping over to watch the Wings game. So I missed most of the 2nd. From what I saw in the 1st, 3rd and 4th was not bad defense. If anything it was pretty good defense.

If the D was bad in the 1st half and was better in the 2nd half then at least give Flip some credit for making an adjustment.

We are putting way too much emphasis on the coach here. The guy is working with what he has, its not his fault that the team could not excecute the most basic plays secure the defensive boards. So he brought up poor shooting in the post-game - the team shot 37%. You are not going to win that way.

@max

I'm with you man, I refuse use flip as a scapegoat to all pistons problems too. But it seems, that we are minority here.

After watching probably my 3000th Piston game (average 80 a year including playoffs times 40 or so years), I decided to wait til the morning after to make my point on one of the most 'hopeless' losses in Piston memory.

I say hopeless, because thats what it is when Boston and KG has their way and its not a damn thing we can do about it.

If u've never played organized sports or worked on your job as part of a team, you will never know the feeling of being under a poor leader. I have:
-played organized sports
- served 8 yrs in the Army
- worked 13 yrs for TWCable
it may even be a bad minister at your church or a family member, but the feeling of having to look that person in the eye and take orders from him, is undescribable.

All u want to do is hold back ur vomit and wonder "when the hell are they gonna can this guy". Soldiers have committed friendly fire when it has gotten too crazy.

This team has tuned Flip out for three years and believe , as a basketball man not a Piston fan, that these will be his last 4 games. Doc is just a better leader than Flip and it will show depending on who goes up 3-2.
The first two dunks of the game yesterday would have had me calling timeout and cussing they butts out!

The team is playing for 'their' own legacy. Even the 3 sec out of bounds play Billups made in game 2 was NOT the play Flip called(see his comments in Detroit news). It was supposed to be a doublecurl for Rip. Tay and Billups saw something else and got a layup. Flip will ALWAYS call a play for a jumpshot with his 'our shots arent falling " butt!

The old defense Pistons would have won that game 80-79. Those days are gone. Flip was brought here to make our offense better in the playoffs. He's failed.

1. To win this series, he has to understand we need to use our bigs effectively. To include Amir, who's probably mentally gone for this season and Hayes , just to come in when Pierce goes out.

2. Stop isoing Tay. It dont work. Post him on the right block or float him in the corners. Other than that, dont let him touch it.

3. We cant depend on Sheed or Dice. we can just take what they give us, so screen roll Rip and have Stuckey continue to drive relentlessly.

4. Billups. Game 1 and 3 vs Game 2. nuff said......

A lot of those missed shots were BAD shots, I mean terrible ones, like I mentioned earlier, bad shots coming out of a timeout.

The Tay, Rip and CB isos. WTF was that? They weren`t only bad shots, they were rushed and it looked like the Atlanat Hawks, not the veteran Piston team we keep hearing about.

Yes, there were a lot of easy chippies too, however, I hate Flip for not ripping whomever was taking those bad, rushed shots a new one.

As usual, he just almost looked away like he didn`t see what just transpired.

Is that a good reason to hate him?

He mentioned those "bad shots" in his post game presser.

Yet you assume that he didn't pass that info on to his players?

You're reaching Dlev.
Flip has mentioned time and time again that the Pistons need to be patient and work the ball to the weak side in order to take advantage of the virtual zone Boston is running.

It seems to me that you need him to peel off a switch and tan some behinds right there on the court (like he could, lol) before you folks think he's upset about it.

Theres not a single thing the Pistons have done wrong that Flip hasn't told them they couldn't afford to do. There isn't a single thing they have failed to do that Flip hasn't told them to do over and over again.

For some reason people want to ignore that little fact and focus on only 25% of the things that come out of his mouth.

You're hardly ever going to see it when Flip gets upset. He's a professional. Thats how professionals operate (re: Joe D.)

I, for one, and not so enamored with these players that I feel the need to give them a free pass when the blame is squarely on their soft, soft, shoulders.

That's embarrasing, Flip can't even admit the real reason we lost. Too many jumpers and getting crushed on the boards. Two things that can be corrected with coaching, but Flip wants to blame his shooters for "missing" easy shots. Some free advice for Flip:

Have Stuckey give a clinic to the starters on how to drive to the basket.
Have JMax rebound, or play someone else. His D was great, but 1 rebound in 20 minutes? Those are Uncle Cliffy numbers.
Play Amir and Afflalo.
Stop playing Lindsey. For every steal he gets, he makes two fouls, and allows 2 rebounds.

Obviously you didn't go back and count shots in the paint in the first half.

Flip told you why they lost the game, now it's his fault that you don't get it?

Getting a rebound at the end of a possession is part of defense.

edited to add;

Has Flip mentioned anything about the fact the were KILLED on the boards?!


"No rebounds, No rings" - Flip Saunders, day 1

He mentioned those "bad shots" in his post game presser.

Yet you assume that he didn't pass that info on to his players?

You're reaching Dlev.
Flip has mentioned time and time again that the Pistons need to be patient and work the ball to the weak side in order to take advantage of the virtual zone Boston is running.

It seems to me that you need him to peel off a switch and tan some behinds right there on the court (like he could, lol) before you folks think he's upset about it.

Theres not a single thing the Pistons have done wrong that Flip hasn't told them they couldn't afford to do. There isn't a single thing they have failed to do that Flip hasn't told them to do over and over again.

For some reason people want to ignore that little fact and focus on only 25% of the things that come out of his mouth.

You're hardly ever going to see it when Flip gets upset. He's a professional. Thats how professionals operate (re: Joe D.)

I, for one, and not so enamored with these players that I feel the need to give them a free pass when the blame is squarely on their soft, soft, shoulders.

I didn`t know you were in the huddle with the Pistons during timeouts.

What makes you assume he DID pass certain information on to the players?

If he passes this information to the players and they don`t listen to him what do you think he should do?

I say sit their asses down. Period.

Yet as you assume, he passes this info to the players and they continue to not listen. What does that tell us? Asssuming of course that is what`s happening.

There were at least 5 or 6 times when these "bad shots" Flip is referring to occured. So, you are telling me these bad shots were addressed by Flip, yet the players kept on doing their own thing.

I`m not buying it.

The team is playing for 'their' own legacy. Even the 3 sec out of bounds play Billups made in game 2 was NOT the play Flip called(see his comments in Detroit news). It was supposed to be a doublecurl for Rip. Tay and Billups saw something else and got a layup. Flip will ALWAYS call a play for a jumpshot with his 'our shots arent falling " butt!

Actually, that was his play. Each of his plays consist of options and reads that the player has to make depending on what the defense decides to take away from you. Listen to his post game again. He makes that plain to anyone that understands the offense.

The old defense Pistons would have won that game 80-79. Those days are gone. Flip was brought here to make our offense better in the playoffs. He's failed.


Different rules, different game. The old Pistons defense has been legislated out of the pro game, and with it has come different ways to defend, and different ways to score. I'm just paraphrasing Joe D when I say that though...



2. Stop isoing Tay. It dont work. Post him on the right block or float him in the corners. Other than that, dont let him touch it.

Saunders is not isoing Tay. Billups, Rasheed, and Rip are isoing Tay. Furthermore, it wouldn't appear to be an iso play if they would simply do what Flip has drawn up for them and move without the ball....not just 1 or 2 guys, but all of them.

The Celtics are playing heavy to the strong side and lagging 5-10 feet off the guys that they want to shoot the ball. 1 pass and then a foray to the rim will fail time and time again, as the Celtics set defense has three guys in the area at all times, one of them being Kevin Garnett. Only hard cuts and screens are going to free up shooters, and only player movement is going to force the defense to snap out of their zone around the painted area.

The idea that a guy shouldn't touch the ball except in certain situations is helping Boston, not Detroit, and the sheer fact that our starting wing is "that" type of player is one of the reasons why Chuck Daly said that the players are flawed, not the coach.


3. We cant depend on Sheed or Dice. we can just take what they give us, so screen roll Rip and have Stuckey continue to drive relentlessly.

....Right into the open arms of the Boston triple team. What these players need to do is start busting their butts off the ball - Hit gaps and come off screens and picks hard, and look to make quick aggressive plays (passes as well as shots...most likely instead of) when they are doing this with the ball in their hands. The current nonsense of fading off of screen and roll/pop plays is doing nothing but giving the defense time to recover. They are failing to find a balance between decisiveness and out-of-control.

This is old news, but I would at the very least expect them to make open shots from 10 feet in. They were blowing them all night, and that isn't because they were running Flex to beautiful perfection. When I see some textbook sets turn into crap, I'll turn around and blame Flip.

But all I've seen lately is sloppy reads on both ends of the floor. That, and missed shots. :)

Remember Rip's comments after game 2>>>"we're going back to the palace tied, you know, and our fans will be there you know, and we got the best fans in the NBA you know and that should be the key to our winning there, you know":sssh:


LOL. I noticed that, too. He must have said "you know" about 40 times in 2 minutes.

Did you guys ever read Gulliver's Travels?

The two countries comprised of little people are feuding over the proper way to crack open an egg. At the small end or the large? Gulliver suggests they crack it down the middle, which of course both sides find utterly preposterous.

"The feuding between the Lilliputians and the Blefuscudians is meant to represent the feuding countries of England and France, but the reason for the war is meant to satirize the feud between Catholics and Protestants, over issues that Swift may have found trivial."

Hmmmm...

I'm just sayin'... ;)

He mentioned those "bad shots" in his post game presser.

Yet you assume that he didn't pass that info on to his players?

You're reaching Dlev.
Flip has mentioned time and time again that the Pistons need to be patient and work the ball to the weak side in order to take advantage of the virtual zone Boston is running.

It seems to me that you need him to peel off a switch and tan some behinds right there on the court (like he could, lol) before you folks think he's upset about it.

Theres not a single thing the Pistons have done wrong that Flip hasn't told them they couldn't afford to do. There isn't a single thing they have failed to do that Flip hasn't told them to do over and over again.

For some reason people want to ignore that little fact and focus on only 25% of the things that come out of his mouth.

You're hardly ever going to see it when Flip gets upset. He's a professional. Thats how professionals operate (re: Joe D.)

I, for one, and not so enamored with these players that I feel the need to give them a free pass when the blame is squarely on their soft, soft, shoulders.

No doubt Flip is partially to blame, but when your starters lay eggs, the team has no chance. You can't win when you've got these kind of numbers from two of your main guys:

Billups was -25 and 1-for-6 FG.

Prince was -23 and 2-for-11 FG.

I didn`t know you were in the huddle with the Pistons during timeouts.

What makes you assume he DID pass certain information on to the players?

Cute and flashy but lacking in substance, considering that between the two of us you were the first person to "assume". You assume that Flip doesn't say something to his players just because you weren't there.

I wasn't aware that you had replaced the sun as the current center of the universe, your highness. :)



If he passes this information to the players and they don`t listen to him what do you think he should do?

I say sit their asses down. Period.

Yet as you assume, he passes this info to the players and they continue to not listen. What does that tell us? Asssuming of course that is what`s happening.

There were at least 5 or 6 times when these "bad shots" Flip is referring to occured. So, you are telling me these bad shots were addressed by Flip, yet the players kept on doing their own thing.

I`m not buying it.

Bottom line, Dlev, is that there is a whole lot of playing and coaching experience wearing suits on that sideline. To assume that information has been passed on to players, especially when the coaching staff has already relayed said info to the members of the press, is hardly a leap of logic.

The erroneous conclusion (at best) is to assume that it has not. But if thats the corner you want to stand in...by all means go right ahead sir.

As for players that continuously disregard the intended directions of coaching staff....sounds to me like your beef is with Mr. Presidente. At the end of the day the buck ultimately stops with him.

Actually, that was his play. Each of his plays consist of options and reads that the player has to make depending on what the defense decides to take away from you. Listen to his post game again. He makes that plain to anyone that understands the offense.


Different rules, different game. The old Pistons defense has been legislated out of the pro game, and with it has come different ways to defend, and different ways to score. I'm just paraphrasing Joe D when I say that though...



Saunders is not isoing Tay. Billups, Rasheed, and Rip are isoing Tay. Furthermore, it wouldn't appear to be an iso play if they would simply do what Flip has drawn up for them and move without the ball....not just 1 or 2 guys, but all of them.

The Celtics are playing heavy to the strong side and lagging 5-10 feet off the guys that they want to shoot the ball. 1 pass and then a foray to the rim will fail time and time again, as the Celtics set defense has three guys in the area at all times, one of them being Kevin Garnett. Only hard cuts and screens are going to free up shooters, and only player movement is going to force the defense to snap out of their zone around the painted area.

The idea that a guy shouldn't touch the ball except in certain situations is helping Boston, not Detroit, and the sheer fact that our starting wing is "that" type of player is one of the reasons why Chuck Daly said that the players are flawed, not the coach.



....Right into the open arms of the Boston triple team. What these players need to do is start busting their butts off the ball - Hit gaps and come off screens and picks hard, and look to make quick aggressive plays (passes as well as shots...most likely instead of) when they are doing this with the ball in their hands. The current nonsense of fading off of screen and roll/pop plays is doing nothing but giving the defense time to recover. They are failing to find a balance between decisiveness and out-of-control.

This is old news, but I would at the very least expect them to make open shots from 10 feet in. They were blowing them all night, and that isn't because they were running Flex to beautiful perfection. When I see some textbook sets turn into crap, I'll turn around and blame Flip.

But all I've seen lately is sloppy reads on both ends of the floor. That, and missed shots. :)
Your right, CW...Let me apologize for even thinking that the greatest playoff coach of alllll time, our beloved Flip Saunders , is not doing the greatest 10 yr playoff run any of us has ever seen. I dont know what Ive been watching. Only have done it for 40 years. I bow to your wisdom, Old Cloud Walker........


:pound::pound:

Did you guys ever read Gulliver's Travels?

The two countries comprised of little people are feuding over the proper way to crack open an egg. At the small end or the large? Gulliver suggests they crack it down the middle, which of course both sides find utterly preposterous.

"The feuding between the Lilliputians and the Blefuscudians is meant to represent the feuding countries of England and France, but the reason for the war is meant to satirize the feud between Catholics and Protestants, over issues that Swift may have found trivial."

Hmmmm...

I'm just sayin'... ;)

Look how easy it was for them to put aside their differences around the turn of the century when Kaiser built up his super army that threatened them both. Maybe the moral is that some always need an enemy.

Your right, CW...Let me apologize for even thinking that the greatest playoff coach of alllll time, our beloved Flip Saunders , is not doing the greatest 10 yr playoff run any of us has ever seen. I dont know what Ive been watching. Only have done it for 40 years. I bow to your wisdom, Old Cloud Walker........


:pound::pound:

And here I was expecting you to kick some play breaking-down or some such. I thought you would at the very least explain Bostons defense, and why driving to the rim would be possible without movement, or what play in particular the Pistons should run while remaining steadfast in their "army of two" offense.

But discussing the intricacies of both teams offensive and defensive principles isn't as easy as bashing the coach.

I understand.

As you were.

Cute and flashy but lacking in substance, considering that between the two of us you were the first person to "assume". You assume that Flip doesn't say something to his players just because you weren't there.

I wasn't aware that you had replaced the sun as the current center of the universe, your highness. :)




Bottom line, Dlev, is that there is a whole lot of playing and coaching experience wearing suits on that sideline. To assume that information has been passed on to players, especially when the coaching staff has already relayed said info to the members of the press, is hardly a leap of logic.

The erroneous conclusion (at best) is to assume that it has not. But if thats the corner you want to stand in...by all means go right ahead sir.

As for players that continuously disregard the intended directions of coaching staff....sounds to me like your beef is with Mr. Presidente. At the end of the day the buck ultimately stops with him.

Huh?

So the folk in the suits are not held accountable for the actions of the players they are coaching?

Tell me that`s not what you are saying.

And Cloud I know you are not that naive to think that whatever a player or coach says to the media that the same is not always communicated to same player or coach.

If a player blatantly disregards a coache`s instruction I agree that the president should step in, however, what should the coach do?

I guess Flip should go to Joe D and say, "uh, Joe, they won`t listen to me", between sobs!

I give up. The hate Flip for everything club wins.

This place is loaded with great fans with great minds, b-ball related and otherwise.

Only blind hatred can actually make some of you think any of Flips timeouts consist of "Just keep isoing Tay on the perimeter and get out of his way!"

Therefore, I have come to the realization that there is no reasoning on the matter.

White flag.

I give up.:yield:

I give up. The hate Flip for everything club wins.

This place is loaded with great fans with great minds, b-ball related and otherwise.

Only blind hatred can actually make some of you think any of Flips timeouts consist of "Just keep isoing Tay on the perimeter and get out of his way!"

Therefore, I have come to the realization that there is no reasoning on the matter.

White flag.

I give up.:yield:

Actually Cloud I don`t hate Flip. I know some on the forum might, but I don`t.

However, we must hold him accountable just like the players.

I equally blame Flip and the players for this teams lack of focus, intensity and direction.

Also, as you pointed out Joe D must take his share of the blame too.

.

And Cloud I know you are not that naive to think that whatever a player or coach says to the media that the same is not always communicated to same player or coach.


Are you so naive as to not realize that communication through the media is communication nontheless?

Ask Phil Jackson and Larry Brown.

Bottom line is, if we hear it, they have heard it.

You know that, why be coy about it?

Either way I'm finished attempting to be the voice of reason.

I agree. It's all Flip, No matter what other coach that would otherwise be in you folks "good/great" list happens to side with him on most issues.

Though I'm sure if Daly came out and said "oh, it's the coach" you guys would be all over it. :)

It's Flip. It's all Flip. He must go. We could win it all right now if it were XXXX instead of him. I'm sure of it.

Are you so naive as to not realize that communication through the media is communication nontheless?

Ask Phil Jackson and Larry Brown.

Bottom line is, if we hear it, they have heard it.

You know that, why be coy about it?

Either way I'm finished attempting to be the voice of reason.

I agree. It's all Flip, No matter what other coach that would otherwise be in you folks "good/great" list happens to side with him on most issues.

Though I'm sure if Daly came out and said "oh, it's the coach" you guys would be all over it. :)

It's Flip. It's all Flip. He must go. We could win it all right now if it were XXXX instead of him. I'm sure of it.

Cloud I am talking about communication DURING A GAME!

Not during post game pressers!

Take the quote from Lindsey after game 1, about Rip not having to shoot every time down the floor.

Something tells me Flip didn`t tell Rip that, if he did why would Lindsey have to repeat it to him?

Lindsey went to Rip with that, then the media picked it up.

You are right, when the media hears it, the players do, the problem is, they hear it after the fact, or after the game!

Cloud I am talking about communication DURING A GAME!

Not during post game pressers!

Take the quote from Lindsey after game 1, about Rip not having to shoot every time down the floor.

Something tells me Flip didn`t tell Rip that, if he did why would Lindsey have to repeat it to him?

Lindsey went to Rip with that, then the media picked it up.

You are right, when the media hears it, the players do, the problem is, they hear it after the fact, or after the game!

Something tells you that Flip didn't tell Rip to move the ball and not to shoot the ball after 1 to no passes? Its fundamental Flex offense. He shouldn't have to be told.

Something tells me that I was hearing that in junior high, and by now it should be such a fundamental factor in "playing the right way" that Rip should know that, considering the previous coaches that he has played for.

Personally, I think that Rip has been told. I think Lindsey went to the media with it because if Flip were to do it, it would be perceived as stooping low. Hunter is in an envious position between player and coach that allows him to do and say things like that (something very Brownlike) and not get judged as a "bad person" for doing so.

I will concede that it (and all other things) is Flips fault.... irregardless :).....

but there is no way that I will ever believe that fundamental aspects of offense and defense like moving, passing and rebounding missed shots aren't even being mentioned by three former players that made their money by adhering to these basic principles with more vigilance than the guy that was opposite them most of the nights in which they suited up.


Say what you will about Flip, but his assistants were three hard nosed "Piston DNA" all the way players, and there is no way that players aren't hearing about it from at least these three individuals during the game when they are giving less than 100%

No way at all.

If you're re-watching the game film, make note of how many times DET starts out on offense shaded to the left or right of the top of the 3 point circle and makes a 6 foot pass to the same side of the floor against a D that is already overloaded to that side. You are screaming trap me there. I suppose it is possible that the players make the plays up as they go, but to me that seems to be a philosophy of some sort.

For all the "new" rules legislating D out of the games, the Pistons sure seem to score less than 80 points an awful lot.

Billups may have been 1-6 and -25 last night, but the fact remains that this is the best ECF he has had since '05.

Even picking up the ball and shooting against your own basket is not as effective as giving someone like Perkins a dunk to start the game.

DET is always going to struggle rebounding the ball when they have to move their defense around so much to account for penetration.

Winning G4 doesn't bring anything back. That can't happen until G5 at the earliest and that means winning 2 games in a row........

Nice example there in regards to strong side passing. Working the ball to the weakside was one of the coaching staffs priorities going into game 2, yet the players all had selective amnesia heading into game 3.

Go figure.

Something tells you that Flip didn't tell Rip to move the ball and not to shoot the ball after 1 to no passes? Its fundamental Flex offense. He shouldn't have to be told.

Something tells me that I was hearing that in junior high, and by now it should be such a fundamental factor in "playing the right way" that Rip should know that, considering the previous coaches that he has played for.

Personally, I think that Rip has been told. I think Lindsey went to the media with it because if Flip were to do it, it would be perceived as stooping low. Hunter is in an envious position between player and coach that allows him to do and say things like that (something very Brownlike) and not get judged as a "bad person" for doing so.

I will concede that it (and all other things) is Flips fault.... irregardless :).....

but there is no way that I will ever believe that fundamental aspects of offense and defense like moving, passing and rebounding missed shots aren't even being mentioned by three former players that made their money by adhering to these basic principles with more vigilance than the guy that was opposite them most of the nights in which they suited up.


Say what you will about Flip, but his assistants were three hard nosed "Piston DNA" all the way players, and there is no way that players aren't hearing about it from at least these three individuals during the game when they are giving less than 100%

No way at all.

Ok Cloud.

Let`s say this info is being communicated during games, however, it is totally ignored by Rip, Cb or whomever.

Who is to blame? What should Flip do?

Winning G4 doesn't bring anything back. That can't happen until G5 at the earliest and that means winning 2 games in a row........


What if they do that, but drop game 6?

I think it will happen. It's better to drag the losing out than to just get it over with.

I'm getting ready for game 7's lopsided blowout debacle, and the continuous ESPN references to the "Boston Three Party" that will most assuredly make me want to vomit.

Ok Cloud.

Let`s say this info is being communicated during games, however, it is totally ignored by Rip, Cb or whomever.

Who is to blame? What should Flip do?

break core. They are relying on eachother way too much.

Ok Cloud.

Let`s say this info is being communicated during games, however, it is totally ignored by Rip, Cb or whomever.

Who is to blame? What should Flip do?

I think it was bballjay whom I agreed with in chat that the most frustrating part about Flip is that he won't bench the whole starting five for being bums.

I think you and I agree that he should have done this a long time ago, until it sunk in.

Unfortunately I think it may be too late now. He's obviously playing for precious wins, and likely for his job. To do it now would risk losing a game that the starters may still be able to pull out (we were sickeningly in it until more than halfway through the fourth last night) while simultaneously giving players, fans, and media a reason to blame the game on him and his ego for pulling the starters and "spotting the opposition precious points at a crucial time and blah blah blah" you know that deal.

He's kind of screwed now IMO. All his chips are laying on whether or not the team can win despite mistakes he made, or choices he should have made, years ago.

IMO, he should have seen the writing on the wall, and went Scott Skiles on Ben and Rasheed, rather than just hope he could tweak things here and there and ride the players talent infused with a few tricks of the trade he picked up to the championship.

Theres the rub though. Flip isn't that type of guy. Joe knew that, yet he hired him anyway. So ultimately the blame for things not working out needs to be on Joe.

He's the one that threw shoes in the oven and tried to pass them off as biscuits.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Pistons don't win a Championship this year, it's time for Joe D. to eat them biscuits.

i had to work today, so i'm on my mobile laptop...what the hell are u guys doing spending this much time on the computer today? get out!!!:pound:...

I think it was bballjay whom I agreed with in chat that the most frustrating part about Flip is that he won't bench the whole starting five for being bums.

I think you and I agree that he should have done this a long time ago, until it sunk in.

Unfortunately I think it may be too late now. He's obviously playing for precious wins, and likely for his job. To do it now would risk losing a game that the starters may still be able to pull out (we were sickeningly in it until more than halfway through the fourth last night) while simultaneously giving players, fans, and media a reason to blame the game on him and his ego for pulling the starters and "spotting the opposition precious points at a crucial time and blah blah blah" you know that deal.

He's kind of screwed now IMO. All his chips are laying on whether or not the team can win despite mistakes he made, or choices he should have made, years ago.

IMO, he should have seen the writing on the wall, and went Scott Skiles on Ben and Rasheed, rather than just hope he could tweak things here and there and ride the players talent infused with a few tricks of the trade he picked up to the championship.

Theres the rub though. Flip isn't that type of guy. Joe knew that, yet he hired him anyway. So ultimately the blame for things not working out needs to be on Joe.

He's the one that threw shoes in the oven and tried to pass them off as biscuits.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Pistons don't win a Championship this year, it's time for Joe D. to eat them biscuits.That pretty much sums up my view of this whole thing.

I must mention though, as I criticize a Flip Saunders decision, how aware I am that hindsight is 20/20.

Scottie Skiles isn't coaching the Bulls anymore, despite his tough guy 'tude, and Ben and Rasheed could have told Bill D. to "Cut That Check" while they coasted the rest of the way into early playoff vacation. That would have put an end to the ECF "streak" before it even started.

There is a downside to abrasiveness, and I sure as heck am not going to second guess Flips approach, as anything different may have led to the loss of Mr. Rasheed Wallace as well as Ben, if not more players.

Perhaps that is where (once again) Coach Daly has a point in that todays NBA and it's players are very difficult to motivate and coach. Only the coaches that win a championship don't suck, and even in those cases they can still suck, see the countless Phil Jackson debates.

Pop doesn't suck. He will probably never suck. Thats about it right? Rivers sucked last year, and unless he is capable of winning a 'ship and keeping up a track record he'll suck again.

Sloan possibly doesn't suck, unless you are trying to win a 'ship with a good team, then he flat out stinks according to some Utah fans. Daly sucked , then he was Detroit royalty, then he left and started to suck wherever he went, according to fans wanting a championship.

So who are we gonna bring in? Van Gundy? He will probably suck before the all-star break . Karl, Adelman, Woody, Cheeks, Avery? Don't they suck now? Isn't every coach available right now available because they currently suck in the minds of an entire state or two?

Was The Czar working on the court with our players the other night shades of Ron Rothstein, rubbing his fingers together and mua-ha-ha-ing on the sidelines?

I honestly don't know ladies and gents. The trend of hiring "who?" type guys as coaches seems to make more and more sense to me, as when it comes right down to it the personnel on the floor are more than capable of getting decent results regardless of and sometimes despite who is wearing the suit on the sideline.

That is one thing that may be agreed upon no matter where you fall on the great Flip debate.

And in light of that, I would have to say it's time for a retool. Coach, players. Everyone.

"No rebounds, No rings" - Flip Saunders, day 1

So why doesn't he play our best rebounder?

If you're re-watching the game film, make note of how many times DET starts out on offense shaded to the left or right of the top of the 3 point circle and makes a 6 foot pass to the same side of the floor against a D that is already overloaded to that side. You are screaming trap me there. I suppose it is possible that the players make the plays up as they go, but to me that seems to be a philosophy of some sort.

For all the "new" rules legislating D out of the games, the Pistons sure seem to score less than 80 points an awful lot.

Billups may have been 1-6 and -25 last night, but the fact remains that this is the best ECF he has had since '05.

Even picking up the ball and shooting against your own basket is not as effective as giving someone like Perkins a dunk to start the game.

DET is always going to struggle rebounding the ball when they have to move their defense around so much to account for penetration.

Winning G4 doesn't bring anything back. That can't happen until G5 at the earliest and that means winning 2 games in a row........

This makes me want to scream. It seemed like we stopped doing it in G