Carlos, and a bunch of Euro's are returning or staying in Europe. San Antonio was hoping Splitter would come over. No chance. No Americans, and not the just released type are starting to choose Europe. Write now, the Euro is paying 2 to 3 times the same number of dollars based on conversion rate and tax savings. Why would a role NBA role player stay here? Read a great article.
Euro: Value of Euro vs. Dollar Impacting NBA Signings? (http://deadspin.com/5027285/value-of-euro-vs-dollar-impacting-nba-signings)
Carlos Delfino is a reasonable back end of the rotation option, a point with size who can defend well enough to get minutes in Detroit a few years ago. He doesn't score well enough to be anyone's idea of a great starting option, and he's too old to have breakout potential, but he's still someone who could play 15 to 20 minutes a night for a playoff team.
He's also someone that's going to make the equivalent of nine million dollars to play basketball next year... in Russia, for Khimki BC. ...


Interesting thought to keep in mind as the dollar continues to fall. We all could see this coming once partial NBA owner Jay-Z started to flash Euros in his videos. As Josh Childress goes, so goes the NBA.


At the same time, the NBA has been getting tough on salaries. Mega stars will get paid, everyone else, nada. Most teams seem to think that since everyone else refuse to go over the cap, why should we? Take it or leave it. Before this year, players had to take it. But now...


Watch how this plays out with Maxiell's contract. Why should he take 3 or 4 mil here when he get twice that in Europe. Same with Amir, and Aflalo.

NBA about to see a new economy, the have, the gone to Europe, and the have nots. This game is going to get ugly. Here's a nightmare for Stern: Euro league games get an ESPN contract.

I'll be surprised if Delfino lasts beyond one year in Russia.

Playing overseas is a good option for marginal players to have though. Guys that can't make it in the NBA can make a nice living. But I don't see quality NBA players stampeding to foreign teams.

The world is constantly changing.

Larry O'Brian meet the World Trophy
Khimki BC thinks Fino is a huge signing.

funny thing, I read an article about the same topic just right now on a german website. It's also saying that because of the salary cap rules a new trend could start, that would bring 1st rounders to Europe because they wouldn't fall under the rookie contract rules and that many role players would leave the NBA in order to get more money over here. I somehow doubt it because the NBA is still the biggest thing for every player. The only thing I think that is going to happen is that many players will leave the NBA after some years of experience, just like Navarro, Nachbar or Delfino did.

Besides Europe has lousy toilets. And some of the girls don't like to shave.

Besides Europe has lousy toilets. And some of the girls don't like to shave.

Your Europe-tour consistst mainly checking toilets and taking notices whether girl shave there or not?:nerd2:

I fully expect YKW to bolt to Europe for a fresh start and a big payday in the near future. I have no idea how the league will survive without its' leading AOTG man.

Stern should be VERY concerned.

I fully expect YKW to bolt to Europe for a fresh start and a big payday in the near future. I have no idea how the league will survive without its' leading AOTG man.

Stern should be VERY concerned.

European teams place a higher value on AOTG and on missed shots that looked good.

European teams place a higher value on AOTG and on missed shots that looked good.
And warmup treys.

Giant T is probably steaming at some of these comments, but TFD ridiculing toilets seems like the high water remark and just might push GT over the edge. I'm expecting an explosive response. :cold:

Anyone remember Antoinne Carr? Top ten pick by the Pistons in the 80's. Told them not to draft him or he was going to Europe. He went to Italy. Have to think a lot more players are going to start using that leverage.

Hoopshype has a great story on the issue: HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Sam Smith » The great escape (http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/smith/2008/07/22/the-great-escape/)

Of course, it’s not like the NBA is about to lose its best talent.
There are risks leaving the U.S., terrorism aside. American players tend not to be the most adaptable people to different cultures, and all have heard horror stories of players not being paid or dumped after a bad game. And try collecting in Moscow. FIBA doesn’t exactly stand behind players to guarantee salaries like the NBA does.

But Europe is now starting to see billionaire owners who might like an ego player or two. And the NBA isn’t exactly in boom times. Restricted free agents, like Childress, have trouble getting offers and so few teams are below the salary cap. Many more are close to the luxury tax and refusing to spend anywhere close. Previous wild spenders like the New York Knicks and Dallas Mavericks are cutting back. The Denver Nuggets, another big luxury tax payer, recently have Marcus Camby, arguably the league’s top defensive player, to the Clippers for, effectively, nothing to save money. Free agents like the Bulls’ Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are getting no offers.

16...Stern has to be a little worried about this. None of the other big 4 American sports have been challenged by foreign competition like the NBA has in the last few years. Baseball players from Japan to Latin & South America hold MLB as their aspiration. The NHL has been pulling great talent from Europe for years. The NFL has no competition outside of North America cuz 'football' means something else to the rest of the world.

The Larry O'Brien Trophy appears to be losing some of it's luster. A big part of it might be cuz basketball requires the smallest roster.

I don't know when the next CBA is due for discussion, but the NBA might wanna re-think some of the current terms.

Being on a forum for the DETROIT Pistons, seems odd that some of us can't see the irony in this. I hope the NBA handles the imminent threat of Globalization better than the original Big 3 did. Remember when people used to look at those itty-bitty Japanese cars and say, "Americans will never drive those things" Hmmmmmm.....Good ol' American arrogance, never fails.

Rax, I'm just looking out for the youngens. Fresh out of hi school or college, they may want to know what to expect.
-
Dett, GT expects only the best in plumbing. Crane, Standard etc. nothing less.

Another one gone.
The Associated Press: Childress leaves Hawks to sign with Greek club (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5juzOymfN3_o2OhWSRwhB5hwHKtKgD923RVHG0)


"I've talked to a few guys, and it could become a trend," Childress said on a conference call about other Americans following his lead. "I'm not so sure it won't. It's different. We thought out of the box a little on this one."

looking at this from there view.... maybe this is the way they make sure stern and his mighty god like attitude don't expand into there market...

No salary caps.... no taxes for the players to pay.... seems like they can go along way to convincing more then just a few of our mid level stars and maybe some of our bigger stars to go over. how well child does over there will set the table for future years i think.

The NBA has lost the last two olympics so we need to stop thinking that were automatically the best and only place to play basketball...

World basketball has grown greatly since the 92 dream team.

Taxation and a US dollar that is leaking value are probably big contributors.

Stern's *ugh* wonderful CBA could come back to bite him in the arse, as these foreign teams in many cases are completely unrestrained, and with the new Russian bourgeoisie throwing money around like Pacman Jones at a strip club....

I still don't see how a handful of marginal players going to Europe affects the NBA. Sixty players were just drafted. There are probably a hundred others from the NBDL and Europe that will all be fighting for just a couple dozen open roster slots in the entire NBA. No one is going to miss Delfino, Childress, etc.

I still don't see how a handful of marginal players going to Europe affects the NBA. Sixty players were just drafted. There are probably a hundred others from the NBDL and Europe that will all be fighting for just a couple dozen open roster slots in the entire NBA. No one is going to miss Delfino, Childress, etc.
Childress is one of the better 6th men in the NBA, he's definitely not a "marginal player".

What is concerning is that so many teams are not making offers to or lowballing their RFAs.

You're right Bill. This is meaningless. Until it becomes a trend. Then it's a crisis.

Got an umbrella?

[I]There are risks leaving the U.S., terrorism aside.

What tremendous foolishness is this? Does the American media really believe the world is a giant suicide bomber pinball machine waiting for someone to venture out into it? Please, somebody tell me I'm taking this out of context.

Taxation and a US dollar that is leaking value are probably big contributors.
A 3 year 20 million Euro contract where the team also agrees to pay your taxes is HUGE!!!! For Atl to match up to that they would have to pony up a 3 year $40/$45 million dollar deal.

I still don't see how a handful of marginal players going to Europe affects the NBA. Sixty players were just drafted. There are probably a hundred others from the NBDL and Europe that will all be fighting for just a couple dozen open roster slots in the entire NBA. No one is going to miss Delfino, Childress, etc.

It creates global competition now, no more old grey club members colluding and playing/paying by their own rules. Again, who would've thought that a Honda Civic & Accord or a Toyota Camry could essentially erradicate Detroit.

What tremendous foolishness is this? Does the American media really believe the world is a giant suicide bomber pinball machine waiting for someone to venture out into it? Please, somebody tell me I'm taking this out of context.
I was also hoping there was a bit of irony involved in the phrase you quoted. To think terrorist attacks could occur only in Europe sounds a little bit patriot- act- brainwashed.

do not blame stern or "abramovich" for such trend. Extremely cheap dollar has made overseas offers lucrative, that is main story.

Ah, terrorism is real, and if hulligans can brawl to the death, it's insecure. Europe is unstable.
Europe is nasty, period.

do not blame stern or "abramovich" for such trend. Extremely cheap dollar has made overseas offers lucrative, that is main story.

The offer Delfino got was way richer than the weak dollar can explain. It was a multiple of what he would have received here.

The offer Delfino got was way richer than the weak dollar can explain. It was a multiple of what he would have received here.

I remember it vaguely, but still: Dino Radja turned down really lucrative offers at his time just to play in NBA. In Barcelona olympics Dream Team was biggest story: they looked like invincible gods.

For now NBA players aren't saints anymore, "weak and soft" euros ain't afraid of "tough" afroamerican bball players( under FIBA rules). Mystic "aura" of NBA what Dream Team helped to maintain has dissapeared.

The offer Delfino got was way richer than the weak dollar can explain. It was a multiple of what he would have received here.
I dunno, he's getting 3million euros per year, that's $4.5 million in US, I think teams could part with the $3mill, but $4.5mill for Delfino.....All things equal the weak dollar makes an overseas contract very attractive.

I dunno, he's getting 3million euros per year, that's $4.5 million in US, I think teams could part with the $3mill, but $4.5mill for Delfino.....All things equal the weak dollar makes an overseas contract very attractive.
Don't forget that European teams manage to play payer's income tax. And that would make it a whole different ballgame. EUR 3 mil is almost $4.8 mil. If you figure 40% tax, you're talking about $8 mil per year that he'd have to make in US to come up with the same money. Who's going to give him that?

Don't forget that European teams manage to play payer's income tax. And that would make it a whole different ballgame. EUR 3 mil is almost $4.8 mil. If you figure 40% tax, you're talking about $8 mil per year that he'd have to make in US to come up with the same money. Who's going to give him that?

So is that a regular occurance playing overseas?? I thought that they did something special just for Childress, if that's the norm, then it's crazy for 2nd tier players to stay in the NBA. Smart move Josh, your agent is Da BOMB!!!!

The offer Delfino got was way richer than the weak dollar can explain. It was a multiple of what he would have received here.
It may have been a multiple, but I don't think the value is wrong. $4.5 is less than the MLE. A young player like Delfino, possible upside, surely is worth a Bobby Simmons/James Posey type deal in a bull market?

The reality is, discretionary spending is under assault (and will continue to be for some time), and the owners are not stupid. They are very bearish on salaries, as they likely are on their profit potential for the next few years. That's allowing Russian and foreign teams to swoop in and pick up NBA MLE range talent for less than the MLE, and appreciably less in their domestic currency. It's a win win for them. They are getting a bargain, and the player is getting a salary he might not have found in the NBA.

That's what happens when a union and (increasingly pro-owner) CBA have to compete with the free market European sports league system. AFAIK, in Europe, you can pay a player whatever you want. You can buy and sell players if you want. It's strictly a system of personal contracts, not organizational collusion for the purposes of wage and profit protectionism.

Don't forget that European teams manage to play payer's income tax.

What do you mean by this? They pay the US income tax above the salary number that we hear about?

What do you mean by this? They pay the US income tax above the salary number that we hear about?
Kind of. You can use foreign tax paid as a deduction or a credit, depending on certain circumstances. Also, part of the income is free of tax as it is earned while you live outside of US (although in his case it won't make much of an effect since the limits on those are under $100K/year). I am not a tax person, but this is to the best of my knowledge.

If you'd like more info on that, here's one link:
US Citizens Living Abroad, Expatriates, IRS Income Tax Explained (http://www.taxmeless.com/IRS593Publication.htm)

You can also go to IRS website if you have lots of time on your hands.
:)

As a U.S. citizen or resident alien, your worldwide income generally is subject to U.S. income tax regardless of where you are living. Also, you are subject to the same income tax return filing requirements that apply to U.S. citizens or residents living in the United States.

That is the main point I think. For a guy like Delfino, it doesn't matter since he isn't a US citizen anyway. He won't have to pay the enormous US income tax for someone making millions of dollars. However, if an American player went to play in Europe, he would be essentially double taxed. The deductions that the US would allow for taxes paid to his employer country would likely be minimal.

Tax details are boring as %%%%, so don't even bother responding to this.

That is the main point I think. For a guy like Delfino, it doesn't matter since he isn't a US citizen anyway. He won't have to pay the enormous US income tax for someone making millions of dollars. However, if an American player went to play in Europe, he would be essentially double taxed. The deductions that the US would allow for taxes paid to his employer country would likely be minimal.

Tax details are boring as %%%%, so don't even bother responding to this.
Yeah, there are lotta ins, and outs, and what-have-yous, man.

That is the main point I think. For a guy like Delfino, it doesn't matter since he isn't a US citizen anyway. He won't have to pay the enormous US income tax for someone making millions of dollars. However, if an American player went to play in Europe, he would be essentially double taxed. The deductions that the US would allow for taxes paid to his employer country would likely be minimal.

Tax details are boring as %%%%, so don't even bother responding to this.
That's what I heard, basically, if you're from a country like the US that taxes out of country wages, it doesn't help too much. So Childress doesn't get much of a lift from his Greek taxes being paid by the team (though he escapes state taxes).

But for Delfino, and I think most of the other countries that don't tax out of country wages, the fact that he doesn't have to pay taxes combined with the Euro to Dollar ration more than doubles his effective salary.

Also, I wonder how much of this is Joe's fault. He may have started a trend by refusing to pay for decent backups (not counting Nazr) and signing the Tony Delks, Mo Evans, Flip Murrays, and Jarvis Hayes of the world for league minimum. Now other teams are following.

MLE's are an endangered species in the NBA, too good to make league mins, not good enough to get real money.

Anthony Goldwire played in Greece.

I think entirely too much is being made of this "trend". Childress and Delfino. Delfino probably won't even last a year in Russia. He may claim an injury or whatever but no way he fulfills his contract.

Anthony Goldwire played in Greece.

I think entirely too much is being made of this "trend". Childress and Delfino. Delfino probably won't even last a year in Russia. He may claim an injury or whatever but no way he fulfills his contract.

I think the whole issue is stemming from this being the first publicly noticed time that a mainstream player is getting paid more to play overseas than they would get playing in the NBA.

I think the whole issue is stemming from this being the first publicly noticed time that a mainstream player is getting paid more to play overseas than they would get playing in the NBA.

True. In the past guys like Bob McAdoo and Darryl Dawkins finished up their careers overseas and got paid more than they would have in the NBA....no guys in their prime though.

But hasn't the NBA has siphoned off enough mainstream players from Europe in recent years to compensate for Childress?

I think the whole issue is stemming from this being the first publicly noticed time that a mainstream player is getting paid more to play overseas than they would get playing in the NBA.

Kinda reminds me of the old ABA days. (or maybe USFL?)
Can a NBA/Euroleague merger materialize in the future?

I realize that were talking about MLE caliber players here but I have a feeling that if the U.S. dollar keeps tanking, the likes of Fino and Childress could be laying the groundwork for some big-time change. All it would take is one or two NBA "stars" or a few highly touted lottery picks to shun "The Association" for BIG European paydays to change the landscape of professional B-Ball.

...I'm not really sure that I'm looking forward to a Lakers vs FENERBAHCE ULKER "WBA Finals" in 2015.

Well, after all, this European threat has some teams really worried:

Cavs' Delonte West is the Latest NBA Player to Consider European Move | Cleveland Leader (http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/6117)

Lakers concerned about European teams talking to Vujacic - The Daily Breeze (http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_9990975)

HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Jorge Sierra » A whole new ball game? (http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/sierra/2008/07/24/a-whole-new-ball-game/)

RealGM: Basketball Wiretap Archives: Biedrins Drawing Significant Interest From Europe (http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53737/20080725/biedrins_drawing_significant_interest_from_europe/)

Yes..it does give players some leverage in contract negotiations. The other Leagues can act as shills to drive some salaries up.

The Euro teams are gaining popularity and can afford to pay more money than they used to, even before taking the weakened dollar into account.

The Euro teams are gaining popularity and can afford to pay more money than they used to, even before taking the weakened dollar into account.
It's not just that. In Russia many of the oil billionaires take up a hobby of owning a team, be it basketball, hockey, or soccer and they have money to burn. Just look at Chelsea. That's how all the Russian teams can attract the players.

It's not just that. In Russia many of the oil billionaires take up a hobby of owning a team, be it basketball, hockey, or soccer and they have money to burn. Just look at Chelsea. That's how all the Russian teams can attract the players.

when abramovitch hired new coach to chelsea then he agreed that new guy can spend UNLIMITED amount of money to new players.

N.B.A. Commissioner David Stern told The New York Times he saw the move as a positive for the league. He said the presence of a player like Childress could only help promote basketball in Europe, where soccer remains the primary sport. “We think that this actually may encourage more people to play basketball, and in the long run it’s only going to benefit the N.B.A. It encourages more kids to bounce the ball, rather than kick it.,” Stern said.

:doh: oook . . .

:doh: oook . . .
I guess Stern thinks that the cream of the crop will still come to NBA. Perhaps, he's not familiar with club "Chelsea"...
:hoops:

I don't think Stern is using his noggin. What happens if all of the fans move to Europe?

He's already planning..

NBA.com NBA ANNOUNCES OPENING OF OFFICE IN LONDON (http://www.nba.com/global/uk/nba_london_office_070516.html)

He's a carnival barker..

Unrestrained Globalization Will Defeat the American Athlete - Elites TV - Your Elite News Source (http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2006/Aug/EEN44ebf5f921f02.html)

Another view..

NBA| Blogging pro basketball with Jonathan Feigen (http://blogs.chron.com/nba/)

Draftnet gets it too...

The Euro Effect | NBADraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/node/1559)

I guess Stern thinks that the cream of the crop will still come to NBA. Perhaps, he's not familiar with club "Chelsea"...
:hoops:

Stern needs to be forced into retirement. His vision for the NBA is stale.

Draftnet gets it too...

The Euro Effect | NBADraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/node/1559)

I like this quote:
As basketball continues to grow in popularity overseas, it will obviously attract the attention of powerful entrepreneurs. In soccer, superstars are bought and sold like a high-stakes game of eBay. Christiano Ronaldo and Ronaldhino are just the latest examples.

Hypothetically, let’s say a billionaire from Macau wanted to capitalize on basketball’s exploding popularity in China. Let’s also say this billionaire has a wonderful working relationship with Nike’s Phil Knight. This billionaire decides his next major investment will be a hoops franchise with a state-of-the-art indoor arena. This billionaire wants to make a major splash, and his pockets are bottomless. He decides to put together an offer for one of Knight’s signature clients -- oh, say, LeBron James. This billionaire is prepared to offer James a 2-year deal in the neighborhood of $150 million.
What happens then?

Another quote:

If he (Childress) successfully transitions, he could be opening up a door into an NBA general manager’s worst nightmare.

That's a big if....

What would constitue a "successful transition" anyway?
Anyone expects him to average humongous numbers? What would the criteria be?

What would constitue a "successful transition" anyway?
Anyone expects him to average humongous numbers? What would the criteria be?

At a minimum it would be to fulfill his contract.

Idle thought #1, I love Paris in the summer..I love Spain in the fall..I love Italy in the winter, but I love Moscow best of all..and another ones gone, and another ones gone and another one bites the dust..

"Agent Marc Cornstein has confirmed to Chad Ford of ESPN.com that former Net Nenad Krstic has officially signed a two year contract with Triumph Moscow early Tuesday morning.

The deal is worth around $9 million per year in the United States once you factor in the exchange rate and the fact that European clubs pay all the players' taxes, according to Ford.

Krstic joins Josh Childress, Bostjan Nachbar, Juan Carlos Navarro, Jorge Garbajosa, Carlos Delfino and Primoz Brezec as NBA players who opted to play for more money overseas this year. Three of the six are Cornstein clients." ESPN


Idle thought #2, I wonder if Cornstein is exchanging his Rubles for Euros?
This guy is reputedly a Vampire...hmmm

Europe exploits free trade to begin revenge on NBA

Three NBA-ready players have received lucrative deals to play in Europe instead, and more will be joining them soon

Mark Woods


July 29, 2008 2:17 PM
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/Navarro.jpg


"Call it "Doing A Beckham". Take an ageing star. Pay him shedloads of cash. And then profit from the reflected prestige of luring said player to your club while resolutely ignoring the fact that:
a) he's well past his prime, and
b) he's only here because nobody back home wanted him (at least, not at that price).


For decades, Europe was the last resort for veteran American basketball stars, the place to seek one gargantuan final pay cheque when the doors of the NBA were politely, but firmly, shut. Bob McAdoo, the one-time Lakers great (http://www.nba.com/history/players/mcadoo_bio.html), started the trend when he decamped to Milan at the end of his career. Dominique Wilkins did likewise with Panathinaikos when his best highlight films were long behind him. One last roll of the dice.


Sometimes it wasn't all about the money. Rehabilitation was often the aim, like when Roy Tarpley was banned for drug use by the NBA (http://www.iht.com/articles/1993/02/01/tarp.php) but welcomed in Greece. When Loren Meyer, once a first-round draft pick by the Dallas Mavericks, joined the Chester Jets in 2001 in search of new beginnings, he became the BBL's greatest ever import.


Regardless, the theme was constant. America is where it's at. Europe? Very much Plan B.


Not any more. High on the summer shopping lists of any NBA general manager would have been the names of Josh Childress, Juan Carlos Navarro and Bostjan Nachbar. The trio were all available for hire this month, contract negotiations pending. Each has seen his undoubted skills rewarded with lucrative deals for next season with major clubs.
All will be playing, not in North America, but in the Euroleague - and there will be more joining them.


Whisper it quietly if you must, but NBA is no longer the only show in town. European basketball is big business in its own right (http://www.euroleague.net/), no longer the poor relation to its Stateside cousin, no more holding out the begging bowl in the hope of help and a handout.


The signings of Childress (by Olympiakos, for a Euro-record £4m per season), Navarro (to FC Barcelona) and Nachbar (to Dynamo Moscow) are just the opening salvos in what has now become a global competition for talent. Europe's leviathans are flexing their financial muscle, and it will be the performers who benefit most.


Ever since the NBA merged with the American Basketball Association in 1976, players have had precious little leverage. The salary cap limits how much they can get paid, even with the introduction of Bird Rights (which allow an over-the-odds offer to re-sign a player). The system of drafts and trades puts the ball firmly in the hands of the teams.


The Euroleague, as yet, has no fixed wages parameters. Sponsorship, television deals and the development of revenue-friendly arenas throughout the continent are allowing the sport to emulate a model that they once could only admire from afar. The falling dollar has strengthened their hand. And there is little the NBA can do to stem this tide (http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/ny-spberger275779433jul27,0,4294504.column).


The Atlanta Hawks must have felt confident of retaining the services of Childress, a promising sixth man last term. Around £17m over five years was just about the going rate. But not, it turned out, sufficient (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nbarep24-2008jul24,0,797764.story). "They told us to go explore the marketplace,'' his agent, Lon Babby, said. "They obviously never contemplated that we would go outside the NBA.''
There is a modicum of sweet revenge at work here. Time after time European clubs put time and effort into nurturing their prodigies, building youth systems that patiently smoothed the development process in order to turn out well-rounded, multi-faceted basketballers. Then, just when their primes beckoned, the bright lights of the NBA would beam down and spirit them away for nominal compensation.


The tables they are a-turning. And the NBA can, in a curious manner, only blame itself. It was its courageous decision to dispatch its biggest American stars to the 1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona to form an all-conquering Dream Team that catalysed the genuine globalisation of the sport. Figures such as Dirk Nowitzki and Pau Gasol have eroded any inferiority complexes while the defeats of Team USA in recent times have shown how the deficit between them and (the rest of) us has narrowed to a mere sliver.


Still, the NBA itself remained immune to the conquest - until now. America gets Beckham. Europe gets their ballers. In the free market, the barriers to trade have irrevocably come down."



From Mark Wood at the UKGuardian Sportsblog
(he's an English bloke)

Yeah, but it's not sustainable. Or only as long as billionaires want to spend. Didn't we read an article on here that said that these teams are not profitable and from the owners' perspective it's more a pride thing and for the fans. That can only go so far. Then again, if more and more fans in Europe are watching the NBA (as Stern has been trying to market) then when these guys start coming to play there, it's only logical that fan interest will go up, revenue will go up, and it will become financially lucrative. The NBA is causing the problem they were trying to avoid by expanding their reach to other countries. Ironic, isn't it?

Yeah, but it's not sustainable. Or only as long as billionaires want to spend. Didn't we read an article on here that said that these teams are not profitable and from the owners' perspective it's more a pride thing and for the fans. That can only go so far. Then again, if more and more fans in Europe are watching the NBA (as Stern has been trying to market) then when these guys start coming to play there, it's only logical that fan interest will go up, revenue will go up, and it will become financially lucrative. The NBA is causing the problem they were trying to avoid by expanding their reach to other countries. Ironic, isn't it?
They can go pretty far, that's obvious. I am talking about Russia, where all the self-made billionaires are. They can afford throwing millions upon millions of dollars at a team just for the sake of prestige.

Jennifer Lopez Paid $1.2 Million for 40-Minute Concert - Jennifer Lopez : People.com (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20036291,00.html)
32 pictures of Roman Abramovich's Pelorus yacht from around the world. Please do not copy (http://www.roman-abramovich.com/pelorus-yacht-pictures-roman-abramovich.htm)
Pacific H2O » Abramovich buys World’s biggest yacht (http://www.pacifich2o.com/?p=65)
People's Daily Online -- Russian billionaire plans investment in Brazil soccer team (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200612/09/eng20061209_330553.html)
Report: Russian billionaire wants Leafs - Sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2008/01/05/shnaider_leafs/)
Russian Billionaire Pushing Forward With Arsenal Takeover - Premiership, Soccer (http://ballhype.com/story/russian_billionaire_pushing_forward_with_arsenal/)

you need anything else?

you need anything else?

NBA players that want to live and work in Russia?

NBA players that want to live and work in Russia?
I would move in a heart beat. Of course, I am just a PF.com co-owner.

I would move in a heart beat. Of course, I am just a PF.com co-owner.

Would you receive the same adulation in Russia?

Would you receive the same adulation in Russia?
Unlikely. However, I would have access to copious amounts of Wodka, which would allow me to compensate for the lack of adulation.

Would you receive the same adulation in Russia?

it couldn't be worse then canada could it? he could be the play toy of some rich oil person over there.... hopefully female :MusicBigGrin:

NBA players that want to live and work in Russia?
Have you ever been there? :MusicBigGrin:

I would move in a heart beat. Of course, I am just a PF.com co-owner.


Would you move for the money, or the similarities in climate to Canada?

Have you ever been there? :MusicBigGrin:

No...I know you know more than anyone about that...but look at it this way...do you think an NBA player would want to raise a family in Russia?

Have you gone to many of the basketball games in Russia? I'm just going by the account of my old pal Paul Shirley. If you read his book he hated Russian basketball.

Would you move for the money, or the similarities in climate to Canada?
The babes. And the weather. And the vodka.

Have you gone to many of the basketball games in Russia? I'm just going by the account of my old pal Paul Shirley. If you read his book he hated Russian basketball.
To be fair, Shirley hates everywhere he plays, the greatest of which are the foreign teams.

No...I know you know more than anyone about that...but look at it this way...do you think an NBA player would want to raise a family in Russia?

Have you gone to many of the basketball games in Russia? I'm just going by the account of my old pal Paul Shirley. If you read his book he hated Russian basketball.
I've been to some basketball games in Ukraine. Basketball was not nearly as popular at that time, you also have to remember that I was about 17-18 at that time. The arena, which was shared with the hockey team, could fit 7,600 people. And for most basketball games it was nearly empty.
I don't know about raising family, but I have to admit that school education is better over there. Once you hit college, it's up for the debate. On the other hand, all the foreign basketball players that come here, they have to raise their children here, so it's pretty much the same.
It's a tough question, there are a lot of things to consider. I don't think there's a clear cut answer on what is better.

The arena, which was shared with the hockey team, could fit 7,600 people. And for most basketball games it was nearly empty.

That's right in line with what I read. I think that is going to be a big problem.

When is it not about the Benjamins?

NBA players that want to live and work in Russia?

David Stern is going to make Rocky IV mandatory viewing on all team charters next year.

David Stern is going to make Rocky IV mandatory viewing on all team charters next year.

When I saw how Hollywood tried to show harsh Siberian conditions where Rocky had to prepare for match and Russian car was "represented" by Mercedes from 60's, I laughed my ass off.

True story, my Dad had 3 Ladas during the 80s, and he wouldn't get service at Full Serve gas stations, in CANADA NO LESS!

When we (canadians) are in a cold war, it means someone left the lid off the cooler and our Labatt Blue is getting warm EH.

Oh, and he had 3 Ladas in case one wouldn't start, he would just get in another one.

True story, my Dad had 3 Ladas during the 80s, and he wouldn't get service at Full Serve gas stations, in CANADA NO LESS!

When we (canadians) are in a cold war, it means someone left the lid off the cooler and our Labatt Blue is getting warm EH.

Oh, and he had 3 Ladas in case one wouldn't start, he would just get in another one.

That was the difference between canadians and soviets: canadians had three Lada's per father, soviets had many fathers per Lada.

Fredericksburg.com - NBA holds weaker hand in cash game (http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/072008/07242008/397322)


Still, it's clear that the NBA no longer holds a monopoly on basketball talent--or options. The world isn't catching up with the U.S.--it caught up a while ago.
And if the latest "Dream Team" doesn't bring back gold from Beijing, the Americans may need to retire the "We're No. 1" chant. Somehow, "We're in the top five" just doesn't inspire the same patriotism.

Greek team may take run at LeBron in 2010 - Ian Thomsen - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ian_thomsen/08/01/lebron.greece/index.html)


At first glance it is ludicrous to imagine that the NBA's next big star would move overseas as he's trying to win championships and replace Michael Jordan as a household name globally. But look at it this way: Neither the Euroleague nor Greek league impose any kind of salary cap on its teams, which means there would be no ceiling on an offer that the billionaire ownership of Olympiakos could make to James.

As a free agent in 2010, his new contract in the NBA would start at less than $20 million annually.

What if Olympiakos were to offer him $40 million per year? Or $50 million? Who knows how much the Greeks would be willing to pay? The point is that the limitation on his salary is entirely up to them.

Greek team may take run at LeBron in 2010 - Ian Thomsen - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ian_thomsen/08/01/lebron.greece/index.html)

Would Nike and Sprite still pay James the nearly $100,000,000 for endorsement deals if his games aired at 8:30 am in New York?

Would Nike and Sprite still pay James the nearly $100,000,000 for endorsement deals if his games aired at 8:30 am in New York?

That's a great point, Linwood. Never even thought about that aspect. I'm sure that's what is keeping Darko in the NBA.

That's a great point, Linwood. Never even thought about that aspect. I'm sure that's what is keeping Darko in the NBA.


I don't think Darko cares about the Benjamins. He's only in it for the ladies.

I'd love to see the Euro Billionaires duke it out with Americas. Bron would have a heart attack at the thought of $40M a year.
I'd love to see Stern, at a press conference, try to stop picking his nose at the disgust of losing a star to Europe.

Addidas and Fanta.

Fortune Magazine puts out a list of the highest paid athletes every year. For 2007 they had LeBron at around 31 million. He's not going anywhere.

I was scrolling around on HoopsHype today and in various U.S. publications, the following players expressed that they would consider playing in Europe for the right money:
Kobe Bryant
Carlos Boozer
LeBron James
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Carmela Anthony
Dwayne Wade

...sooner or later, a "star" or top draft pick is going to open the floodgates for a minor exodus of pretty good players to Europe.

I was scrolling around on HoopsHype today and in various U.S. publications, the following players expressed that they would consider playing in Europe for the right money:
Kobe Bryant
Carlos Boozer
LeBron James
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Carmela Anthony
Dwayne Wade

...sooner or later, a "star" or top draft pick is going to open the floodgates for a minor exodus of pretty good players to Europe.
I saw that too. I don't know if throwing $50 million a year at one of these guys would make business sense, but for a billionaire owner who wants a highly visible status symbol it might be tempting.

I saw that too. I don't know if throwing $50 million a year at one of these guys would make business sense, but for a billionaire owner who wants a highly visible status symbol it might be tempting.

The way i see it, the NBA used to be THE place to bawl.
...now it seems destined to turn into ONE OF the places to bawl.

There's no crying in basketball.

In all seriousness, will this not make the NBA eventually rethink the cap?

In an extreme hypethetical, what if Kobe and Lebron were both lured away to Europe because they took offers that were above the limit in the NBA? That would kill the league.

I like the cap, but this definitely gives the player's union some serious leverage in their next negotiation.

Since players of that ilk will never play for Det....I like it.

Since players of that ilk will never play for Det....I like it.

Good point.

There's no crying in basketball.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/bdl/crying.jpg

...Tell that to this guy.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/bdl/crying.jpg

...Tell that to this guy.

If you had that haircut...

Kobe says Europe a possibility - Olympics - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news;_ylt=AkuC97uhreVxvCuXp6QG16.8vLYF?slug=aw-kobeeuropenewser080908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Here we go!


BEIJING – Kobe Bryant (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/usa/kobe+bryant/220296/;_ylt=AtQ.B7OrWpEygkn85.wPOQTHKZt4) won’t sign a contract extension with the Los Angeles Lakers (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/lal/;_ylt=AkvodWmQjLkLCUfjpLnCRNjHKZt4) until he has tested the global market, the U.S. (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/usa/;_ylt=Ao8EljcQG4vr2IndUlgJUDXHKZt4) Olympic basketball star told Yahoo! Sports on Saturday.
Asked whether he plans to solicit overseas offers before signing an extension, Bryant flatly said yes.

As players, the business of the game (is) evolving,” Bryant said before a Team USA practice at Beijing Normal University. “I think free agency now is becoming a global thing …. When players become free agents, the team they’re currently with – their competition is no longer the rest of the teams in the NBA. But it’s global. So, the market’s opened up. So we’ll just have to see how the league responds to it.”


Bryant spent several years of his childhood in Italy (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/ita/;_ylt=Auhm2.yufSSnW0aprbvZprTHKZt4) and loves it there. Seven years ago, he bought an ownership stake in Olimpia Milano of the Italian league for his father Joe to run. When Bryant was asked whether he held intrigue with owning and playing on a team together, he said, “Absolutely.”


Some basketball executives believe Bryant’s ultimate ambition might be to have a majority ownership with a powerhouse Italian team while serving as its superstar. What’s more, Bryant, 29, insists that it wouldn’t be such a leap of faith for him to leave the NBA.

“I think people kind of make it out to be a little more than what it is,” he said.

Kobe can go......Sign Shaq to your team Kobe.....

Don't drink the Limoncello.....unless with lots of pasta and garlic breath bread.

Kobe grew up in Italy, so it would not be a culture shock for him to play there. Money talks.........

The Sonics failed to turn a profit with both Ray Allen and (max contract) Rashard Lewis. Even with large public subsidy for the stadium, Howard Schultz and Clay Bennet claimed losses of nearly 40 million dollars a year. If the NBA changes the salary cap, how will smaller market teams be able to afford these players? Also, if Kobe is getting $60 mil, does that mean that Jarvis Hayes is worth 8 mil a year, or does the NBA become a league with one tremendously overpaid player and a supporting cast of D-League rejects making the league minimum?

Perhaps the NBA will have to rethink it's superstar marketing and start building teams that can consistently win against Euro-teams built around the star and scrubs.

So why didn't they just tell the people to let it go?
If it's the same ownership in OK City, they'll blow it there.

The Sonics failed to turn a profit with both Ray Allen and (max contract) Rashard Lewis. Even with large public subsidy for the stadium, Howard Schultz and Clay Bennet claimed losses of nearly 40 million dollars a year. If the NBA changes the salary cap, how will smaller market teams be able to afford these players? Also, if Kobe is getting $60 mil, does that mean that Jarvis Hayes is worth 8 mil a year, or does the NBA become a league with one tremendously overpaid player and a supporting cast of D-League rejects making the league minimum?

Perhaps the NBA will have to rethink it's superstar marketing and start building teams that can consistently win against Euro-teams built around the star and scrubs.

Pretty interesting question, isn't it?

Seattle is anywhere from 3.3 to a little over 4.5 million people depending on how you define the market (from metro area to TV market). It's hard to get comparable definitions elsewhere, but for comparison, in France, only Paris is larger, the UK maybe has two, and Germany maybe three of comparable or larger size.

I wonder how much more (if any) sponsorship dollars a Euro team might get, because the extra cash to sign LBJ or Kobe isn't going to come from usual revenues. This could be a case of talking the talk, but on the face of it, it might be pretty hard for a team to walk the walk.

If LBJ were willing to walk away from all his endorsement dollars and let those flow through the team, then maybe something might happen. Otherwise, I'm must not seeing where the money will come from.

And then of course there is the signing of Childress...

Now they are reporting that Flip Murray might go over seas? That is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Now they are reporting that Flip Murray might go over seas? That is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Wow. That's huge!

Now they are reporting that Flip Murray might go over seas? That is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

With Arroyo and Ron Murray over in Europe, It's hard to even justify that backcourt play in the NBA is on the same level as what's happening on the other side of the Atlantic.

The NBA is becoming a "minor league".

Interesting take on playing in Europe from a some guy from Texas who's been playing in Europe since 2000. If you can get past his writing, it seems Europe is a combination of the CBA and the NBA at the same time:

OK. What if LeBron asked for $40 million in advance and $1 million a month, a private jet, house on the French Riviera and stock options in the owners TV company after his company gets the TV rights to all Euroleague games LeBron plays in? He’d get it. So let me get this straight… The most he can sign for in the NBA is about 6 years, $120million? So that’s what? $60 million over 6 years after taxes approximately? He can make basically that in one year net living as a king in some paradise and then make even more off his comeback to the NBA after one year in Athens, Barcelona or Moscow? And he’s 24. He wouldn’t do that? None of the aforementioned basketball juggernauts would do that? OK. If you say so.

HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Gabe Muoneke » Ignorance a miss (http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/muoneke/2008/09/16/ignorance-a-miss/)

I think that a lot players are going overseas cause over there their league is not as glamorous as the NBA. Players over there get treated fairly. NO one plays a thousand minutes and people on the bench probably get to touch the floor at pre-game l.o.l. But it could about money, we all remember what LeBron said about going over there to play. I know he said he was joking but come on, do you really think he's play for Cleveland?? Cleveland is a team that has the "big man on campus" but everyone else on the team is in elementary school :pound: