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16-17 ............................ 26-4

Palace of Auburn Hills
7:30 PM EST
TV: WDIV
Radio: WDFN 1130


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Jazz Report

The Jazz are sporting a 5 game winning streak going into Friday night's match against Memphis (Memphis smoked em by 22 pts). The are currently 1/2 game out of first place in the Northwest division.
Utah has inserted Collins into the starting lineup and moved Memo to PF until Boozer returns (apprx 2 weeks). They have also demoted Deron Williams to the bench.
The challange will be to keep the Jazz off the offensive glass.
Kililenko is one of tleague leaders in blocked shots (3.18)
Memo is their leading scorer @ 17.9 and rebounder @ 9.10
They typically play a controlled half court game keeping opponents scoring down. They do have difficulty on defense. When Kirilenko goes for blocks it often leaves his man for offensive rebounds.
Memo has a +/- rating of -2.3
However Memo is one of the league leaders in crunch time efficiency (http://aol.nba.com/features/nestle/crunch_time_stat.html)


Game Preview

This will be a challange for the bench as the Jazz have key reserves including Devin Brown, Deron Williams, Matt Harpring and Greg Ostertag.
The key to winning will be to keep Kirilenko out around the perimiter on defense as their interior defense is lacking quickness.
The Pistons must stay tight on Okur around the perimiter.
Sloan's strategy is similar to LB or Pop's; make the extra pass for the high % shots.
The Pistons gaurds have a size and skills advantage over the Jazz gaurds. Look for them to break down the defense and create easy opportunities for Ben & co.

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Utah vs. Detroit? :mad:

Slowly I turned...inch by inch..step by step...Niagara falls....

payback time :)

good test utah has actually been playing great as of late, of course so have the pistons. derron williams is still injured?

95 to 80 Pistons. Unless there is a Memo lovefest, 95, 90. Jazz on a road back to back. Sorry.

They have a back-back comming in from Memphis. Lot easier for the Pistons who stayed home.

Utah crushed us on the boards last time. Pistons have been rebounding a lot better lately and you know they are aware of what happened last game with them.

Pistons 108 Jazz 84

They have a back-back comming in from Memphis. Lot easier for the Pistons who stayed home.

Utah crushed us on the boards last time. Pistons have been rebounding a lot better lately and you know they are aware of what happened last game with them.

Pistons 108 Jazz 84

Utah was blown away by Memphis, and so their starters all played light minutes. And you know Sloan was chewing them a new one the whole flight to Detroit. Memo has a big chip on his shoulders, and I don't think anything fazes AK. Could be trouble.

Detroit 95 Utah 91

I think someone on the Utah athletic training staff should strap Memo down and shave his unibrow. That thing is scary. :laugh:

AAAAAAARRRRRRggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! C'mon D. JAZZ???

blasted on the boards again sheesh...wasn't expecting that. it's cause i wasn't at the game!! 8-0 when i'm there, 6-2 when i'm not!!

Flip coached for a loss. First he brought Evans in. Bad news. Our starters had built up a pretty good lead. But the game is played for 48 minutes. Or 53 in this case. Our bench did horrible with Evans in there. It briefly held its own after Evans sat, but then Flip compounded his mistake by pulling his bench to early in the 2nd quarter. I know Flip is an experienced coach, but he certainly needs to learn the following: you do not win, or lose, the game in the 2nd quarter. This was a back to back. The starters needed time off the floor. Time they did not get. And then Flip just further compounded the problem by playing the bench way too little in the 2nd half. No Arroyo. Delfino gave some rest to Tay then Rip, and that was it. Sheed was not doing his normal rotation as Dyess was in early in both halves due to foul trouble. If Sheed had not been in foul trouble, this game would have been even worse. With Sheed in foul trouble, the coach was forced to give him proper rest, and Sheed was able to give us some energy there in the 4th to keep us close.

Our players were visibly tired. Leaning against the supports. Sitting on tables whenever they could get off their feet a moment. CB was completely leg dead by the overtime, and Utah started 3 non-starters in that overtime. Guess which team was fresher?

CB rallied there for a bit with what he had left. Just not enough. Tay hit several outside shots in this game, including one with 2 minutes left in regulation and one in OT. Nice to see the clutch shooting. Rip was hitting shots. But not much late in the game. Pretty tanked.

Ben got some rebounds, but all in all, we had the same problem as last time, giving up too many offensive boards. Flip is being interviewed, making up his excuses. Sure, they played aggressive. We missed shots. How about all the dead legs out there. Get a clue coach.

Delfino did not do any scoring, but he was around the boards a lot. Dyess hit some shots, and made 5-6 free throws. Arroyo did not do much. Evans did absolutely zero. Darko did not play. One more game toward not being prepared for the playoffs. Flip, if you can't start getting prepared for the playoffs, please at least start now to make up some excuses at least that are unique.

i can believe we lost to the jazz again :frusty: :frusty: :frusty: i am pretty sure the 70 wins talk ends with this loss. Imo we will hit the low 60's like 63 maybe 64 but that is it.

Lee predicted it correctly it was trouble. The last time we lost to them they were blown out the game before. Of course this was a back-back.

Kerilinco and Palacio played great. Memo grabbed a lot of boards. Most of all Utah actually made the clutch plays. I am not sure what was up with Billups. He was trying to do too much. Not passing enough, trying to di too much. As in the last play in Regulation the guy almost gets triple teamed and fluffs up a shot. I don't if he was just tired since Arroyo did not play much or if the MVP talk got to his head a bit.

Team has to get better at rebounding. One thing I miss about the old coach is how he challenged everyone to chip in.

Bright side? Should quelch the 70 wins talk.

Yes, forget the 70 wins. I repeat what Joe said on the other board--not a worthy goal. But, Lee has a point. Not about Evans--he didn't play much at all and we all know his limitiations. But we have trouble on a back to back and the only solution is to play the bench on back to backs. A bigger issue is that Billips (and sometimes Rip) try to go one on one when we get into trouble. Forget the MVP talk. We are only good when we run the offense. We don't have great one on one guys.

We lost.

Big deal.

IMO the 70 game talk was a far reach anyhow. We have almost as much chance of reaching 70 as we did before today.

Personally, I'd be tickled pink with 65.

Blame it on Evans. Blame it on Flip. Whatever.

Did anyone here really expect this 26-5 start? Few people dispute that they are the best team in basketball. People need to remember that the other teams want to win too. This is not the Harlem Globetrotters playing the Washington Generals for 82 games.

These guys win better than 5 out of every 6 games they play.

Losing sucks. Sorry, but we'll just have to deal with it 2 or 3 times a month.

Think about it...they lost less games in the last two month than the Lions.

Appreciate and enjoy.

Flip coached for a loss
ohh please, don't blame Flip for every freaking loss on the schedule. Hindsight is 20/20. You can't predict that we are going to go on a huge drought after going on an offensive tear in the first quarter. And you say that Flip should have kept the bench in longer in the 2nd quarter, but the fact is that the bench was in when our 14 point lead dropped to about 2 points. Arroyo is not capable of running the offense, and he brings down the entire team with him. It's not Flip's fault that Arroyo HAS to play at least SOME time (unless you want Chauncey play 48 minutes, or 53 in this case). You know Flip sees it because he has made a habit of playing Chauncey they entire 2nd half. And frankly, I don't blame him. If he puts in Arroyo and we blow the lead he gets blamed for it anyways, so he has to take the chance on keeping Chauncey in.

Flip also didn't force Sheed to get absolutely dominated on the boards by Memo. The offensive glass was where this game ended. That's an effort thing from the entire team.

I'm with the Prince. The team just played like crap. And the schedule hasn't been at all tough the past week, so the whole "team is tired" argument falls flat. What they are is complacent. They've piled up wins without maximum effort rebounding or playing D, and now they're assuming they can always do that against lower-echelon teams.

Too many shortcuts: settling for jump shots, counting on our big men to cover for sloppy defense, failing to block out, waiting until the last five minutes to win the game. It would be nice if Mr. MVP actually got fired up about it and showed leadership, but the usual pattern in past years is that it doesn't change until Ben gets mad. So I hope he gets mad soon.

that was a terrible call by flip for the last play of the game. why would he run sheed and chauncey's bread and butter play with ben wallace??? everybody in the arena knew ben's man would double chauncey. if flip had run that play with sheed the defense would have had to play billups honest. but instead he had to dribble around a double team to get open then try to get up a shot after the clock ran down.

i do agree somewhat with lee. evans is not "earning" minutes in my book. delfino is simply outplaying him. evans is not what he was billed to be. he almost made me spill my pop when he dribbled the ball out of bounds. he shouldn't be taking any minutes away from tay, rip or delfino.

this was a game where we needed sheed. but thanks to a few carefully placed bs calls he was on the bench with foul trouble. our outside shots weren't falling and we had nobody to go inside to. flip really bothers me with this. he will let chauncey, tay and rip fire away missing and missing but will never put a bench player in. a bench player could do no worse than they were out there. give them a little extended rest and show them that thier playing time is not guaranteed and maybe we'll see a little bit more effort before the 4th quarter.

i was happy to see memo do well against us. he was always one of my favorite players. that 3 in overtime really is what killed us.

i was happy to see memo do well against us. he was always one of my favorite players. that 3 in overtime really is what killed us.


Yeah, I'm always happy to see former Pistons do well against us, contributing to a loss for my favorite team. :confused:

i do agree somewhat with lee. evans is not "earning" minutes in my book.
When Lindsey comes back, this may change. Then again, maybe not. FYI, the only folks worrying about earning minutes are DMC fans. Evans was +5 until Arroyo came in and stagnated the offense.

i was happy to see memo do well against us. he was always one of my favorite players. that 3 in overtime really is what killed us.
I think Milt Palacio of "Toronto Raptors" fame getting two huge baskets because we can't perimeter defend is what killed the Pistons. They were within one possession until Milt went all Michael Jordan on the Pistons.

the only folks worrying about earning minutes are DMC fans. Evans was +5 until Arroyo came in and stagnated the offense.


I think the reason for that is that DMC seems to be the only one who HAS to earn his minutes and loses them so easily.

I think we need to get used to having discarded Pistons coming back and playing well against us. Soon, we can add DMC to that list :doh:.

I think the reason for that is that DMC seems to be the only one who HAS to earn his minutes and loses them so easily.

I think we need to get used to having discarded Pistons coming back and playing well against us. Soon, we can add DMC to that list :doh:.
'berbs, DMC is de-activated for all intensive purposes right now.

When Darko comes back and plays well against Ben and Sheed, we will have finally arrived in Bizarro world.

'berbs, DMC is de-activated for all intensive purposes right now.

When Darko comes back and plays well against Ben and Sheed, we will have finally arrived in Bizarro world.

Micro, is this the official word coming out of team sources (it seems like it is) or has there been some announcement or what? I have been holding a little hope that after the rest are assimilated into the system, we might spend some time in the second half getting DMC involved.

I just cannot see Davis as a Shaq stopper. And I cannot see the Pistons thinking about a trade of DMC without showcasing him.

No hope?

Sorry if this is the wrong thread but I am just answering your post.

ohh please, don't blame Flip for every freaking loss on the schedule. Hindsight is 20/20. You can't predict that we are going to go on a huge drought after going on an offensive tear in the first quarter. And you say that Flip should have kept the bench in longer in the 2nd quarter, but the fact is that the bench was in when our 14 point lead dropped to about 2 points. Arroyo is not capable of running the offense, and he brings down the entire team with him. It's not Flip's fault that Arroyo HAS to play at least SOME time (unless you want Chauncey play 48 minutes, or 53 in this case). You know Flip sees it because he has made a habit of playing Chauncey they entire 2nd half. And frankly, I don't blame him. If he puts in Arroyo and we blow the lead he gets blamed for it anyways, so he has to take the chance on keeping Chauncey in.

Flip also didn't force Sheed to get absolutely dominated on the boards by Memo. The offensive glass was where this game ended. That's an effort thing from the entire team.

That scoring drought was Evans not knowing how to play the game, and Flip trying his best to change that. He tried to get Evans involved in the ball handling, and all it did was use up clock, giving us bad shots. No way was that Arroyo's decision. It was the coach putting in plays involving Evans.

We lost 4 points of our lead with Evans in. But worse, we went from the ball flying all over the place, and players moving well without the ball, to no offensive flow at all with Evans in. Evans killed a good thing.

Coach took Evans out, and Arroyo, Delfino, and Dyess then held their own for a few minutes. The lead did not change while these three played without Evans. And the offense was clicking just fine too. Why coach took Delfino out at that point I just don't know. Why mess with a bench that is working for you.

After Delfino went out, the lead went back up to 9. Six minutes to go in the 2nd quarter, and we had a nine point lead. Which means that from the time Evans came in, with us having an 11 point lead, until that point, we had lost 2 points from the play of the bench.

At that time, Kirilenko made a couple of outstanding long range shots. In a minute, one stinking minute, the lead dropped from 9 to 2. So basically, by your argument above, about losing the lead, you can't say the bench did bad at all except for that one minute of play.

And that one minute my friend, had nothing to do with Arroyo's play. Arroyo does not guard Kirilenko last I checked, and Arroyo did absolutely nothing wrong during that one minute.

'berbs, DMC is de-activated for all intensive purposes right now.

When Darko comes back and plays well against Ben and Sheed, we will have finally arrived in Bizarro world.

yes. darko does seem to be in the doghouse. i've gotten to the point where i want him to get traded just to show people that hated on him all these years what they missed. i cheered for memo last night as he rebounded and hit a big 3 on us. but hey everybody is happy memo is gone right. he couldn't earn minutes behind sheed.

anyway darko has nothing to do with evans. he comes in and messes up on the regular and should not be getting minutes over delfino. delfino is coming along nicely he's progressing. why do you try to justify evans getting minutes over delfino by taking a shot at darko??? darko earning minutes is just a way of saying we aren't going to play the guy over 3 former all stars.

seems like bizarro world will be here in about 3 years. ben and sheed will be aging. darko will be just flirting with all star status on another team. we will be entering another teal era.

how about we use dale davis. the pistons lose to all these bad teams because most of them for some reason are very big. we get outrebounded because the opponent keeps grabbing a fistful of ben's jersey, and they get away with it. dale davis can help us in the paint. darko gives us shotblocking, but not boards. spurs lost to suns so pistons are still 1.5 games ahead.

let's go on to oklahoma. pistons have to win chris paul will be out.

yes. darko does seem to be in the doghouse. i've gotten to the point where i want him to get traded just to show people that hated on him all these years what they missed. i cheered for memo last night as he rebounded and hit a big 3 on us. but hey everybody is happy memo is gone right. he couldn't earn minutes behind sheed.
Sure you do/did. You're a fan of the players, not the team. You'll be cheering for Darko when he beats the Pistons (hahahaha) one day, because you put the player before the jersey. Which is fine and dandy, so long as we're honest about what your motivations are.

Which is really regretful because I have seen you post insightful things on the game, you just seemed doomed to forever be running in circles obsessing over each player who might get away.

It's too bad you don't trust Joe. Because for as much as I criticize him, he's made many great moves and has a solid plan for the future. Memo may have big nights in Utah, but we weren't winning a title without Sheed. So now Memo can collect his big money and play for a .500 squad. Maybe Darko can text message him from the Finals...

There's nothing wrong with being a fan of the player:re: Rodney White or Cheeser or Memo. But it is team first. "Don't ever go against the Family, ever". And don't be all over the place.
Still we are supposed to buy LBs power play for Sheed. [he wanted more D] But what about JDs hand picked players? Don't F with JDs plan! Memo was a big piece that LB couldn't handle. Last nite he gets 17 boards---WTF!!! Was this a Unibrow lovefest?
Try not to panick.
We shot <33% from tre. That won't continue.
Live and Die by the Flip.

yes. darko does seem to be in the doghouse. i've gotten to the point where i want him to get traded just to show people that hated on him all these years what they missed. i cheered for memo last night as he rebounded and hit a big 3 on us. but hey everybody is happy memo is gone right. he couldn't earn minutes behind sheed.

It's sad, but Micro does have a point. Anytime you are cheering for the opposition to score against us and they're not even a friend/family member...you've taken it a little far. It appears that your loyalty is a bit misdirected.

Bball, yes, in three years are window will probably be closed. But we can't worry about that. Everyone's window closes sooner or later. Look at the Lakers. Who would have thought 3 years ago. Your point about the last play is a good one. Everyone talks about Arroyo this or Evans that but that last play was terrible execution. We execute, we win. Why are we trying to play like a superstar team down the stretch. Chauncey's great but he is no Kobe or Wade or McGrady. Sheed should be getting touches on most plays. When we play SA, Sheed needs to get the ball up top as well as down low. Did you see how much trouble SA has with Phoenix because they don't want to bring Duncan out on defense?

I think most people on this Board would agree that we could use another player off the bench. Flip doesn't rest the starters enough on the second night of back-to-backs (or the first, for that matter), but he doesn't have a lot to work with off the pine either.

Because of that, maybe we needed something like this. As long as we keep squeaking wins out over teams in the last five minutes, we can keep telling ourselves that maybe we don't really need another guy. I think it's pretty clear our starters will be worn down by the end of the year if they keep logging the minutes they are, so perhaps in the long run this will be better by accelerating our search for a quality bench player.

I am really sorry, guys, but it appears that we have hijacked another thread and made it into a Darko one. But if I reply somewhere else, we wouldn't know where it is :confused: .

I am and have been a Piston fan, as I am sure bballjay is. I know he is, and I know I am. But for myself, when I am convinced that someone has gotten the shaft, not gotten a fair shake, got blamed for things that were not all his fault, and especially, being the subject of such low-life comments that were not warranted, I do have the tendency to come to the defense. Such is the case with Darko and to a much lesser extent, with Memo.

With all my heart, I hope Joe comes through but I am beginning to lose hope. He really had faith that DMC was in the future of this franchise, and me may still think that. But it seems that he hires people who do not.

As for Flip, he is winning and winning and people believe that he has it knocked, but he is not winning the right way, as the 'little ykw" didn't and it caught up with him. It will also catch up with Flip in the same way.

Just because we point out things like this does not mean that we are not Piston fans. The main problem I have with Flip is that he buys this stupid (in my way of thinking) idea that in spite of what the team needs or can definitely use, he has to win his little battle of "earning minutes' while not giving the player a chance to do so.

Just look at all the chances he give the other players who come in and mess up. Over and over again, they screw up and they keep getting back in.

While now, as in the last regime, we have a good talented 7 foot 20 year old who we have SEEN with our own eyes make plays, even if not on a consistent basis, that WE NEED. But because coach wants to make a point, we are deprived of this kid's services and are in danger of losing him for good.

I just cannot understand why only a few of us see this. I suppose it is the same with you other guys who can't understand why I have not given up on him, but how do you give up on a 20 year old 7 footer with such an array of skills, who has not been given a chance to show them on a consistent basis?

OK, OK, I will quit now, but when he comes back, I will still root for him, although I still want the Pistons to win in the end.

Sorry again, guys. Can't keep my mouth shut until you all agree with me :frusty: :eyebrows: .

lazy, from Joe's mouth to your ears,

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/ian_thomsen/01/06/carmelo/2.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/ian_thomsen/01/06/carmelo/2.html)

lazy, from Joe's mouth to your ears,

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/ian_thomsen/01/06/carmelo/2.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/ian_thomsen/01/06/carmelo/2.html)

more of the company line. different rules for darko than the other players.

mo evans is certainly playing through mistakes. mcdyess was allowed to play through mistakes.

yes. you are right i'm a fan of the pistons and the players. it is possible to be both. i like to watch lebron, kobe, ak47, dirk ... i have lots of players i like to watch. how can some of you on this forum question my loyalty to the pistons and yet you endlessly take shots at one of our current pistons (darko). yet there is a problem with me cheering for memo who i feel got the shaft. i wasn't the only one at the palace that cheered when memo was introduced.

if you are such a piston fan why isn't everyone on this board cheering for darko and rooting for him to succeed. not pulling the "i hope he proves me wrong" routine. people on this board also didn't cheer for delfino. now everyone is changing thier tune.

if you are such a piston fan why isn't everyone on this board cheering for darko and rooting for him to succeed. not pulling the "i hope he proves me wrong" routine. people on this board also didn't cheer for delfino. now everyone is changing thier tune.
Personally, I could care less. I'm more concerned why we got beat by Utah than why player X did this, player Y did not play or how player Z who used to be a Piston had a good game.

Darko just ain't important right now. I think Joe's quote makes that pretty clear. This year is not about DMC. So why get all hung up on it? Still got a championship to chase.

I don't know why people are resenting what Joe had to say. It has been obvious for a while that taking Darko as a project and playing for a championship are not a good mix. Joe is calling it like it is. Darko would normally be drafted by an Atlanta who could play him a lot without worrying about a W. It is easy to say play Darko. Yes, he could be the future. But if we start to lose games everyone on this board will be upset. Yes, bench guys playing now are not producing from game to game. I say play the bench on the back to backs since the starters are showing that they can't perform at a high level on back to backs. But what if the bench just isn't good enough? Other than Dyss, no one there is really proven. Yes, I like Delfino but he is not proven. How many minutes would Darko get? 5 isn't enough, with 10, if he doesn't produce, we would get a loss and then what? If Darko started playing 10 a game now, he might be ready in two years to play big=time playoff ball. It is questionable that he could guard Shaq today. And then , even if he could, his offense is not ready. That is why Joe got Davis. Joe understands his mistake. The Bucks picked up Magloire to help Bogut. Bynum is not playing for the Lakers and is being schooled by Kareem. Kwame is in his 4th year and still doesn't have much game. We made a mistake taking Darko no matter how well he turns out because any of the proven players in that draft would be helping us now. But there are reasons for that mistake that would be far afield here. The only reason he is not traded is that management probably feels that we can afford the luxery of having him not play and hoping he develops before we have to trade him. Do we have that luxery?

I cheer when its warranted.

Delfino earned his stripes, Darko has not.

The issue isn't rooting for a former Piston, the issue is rooting for a former Piston while they are playing against us in a game. I am a fan of Lebron James as well, but if he hits a big shot against my team....for that second, there is noone on this earth I despise more. :)

Besides, I don't think anyone in this forum has ever cheered against Darko, Delfino, or any other Piston. (Or at least proclaimed it on the site that I know of). There is not a minute that Darko gets into the game that I don't think most of the members on the site are hoping to see Darko show he is deservent of his draft position.

The debate that most members have had with you has normally had nothing to do with IF they want Darko to succeed...it has always been IF Darko has actually done all he can to be successful in this organization.

All I'm saying is that if I'm standing next to you at the Palace, Memo hits that shot and the reality that we have loss a game that was in our grasp slowly creeps in....I see you visibly happy for Memo....I'm pissed. Your loyalty to a player even when it is at our demise is what I call be a waivering fan. ...more so than waiting longer to form an opinion on how well someone will perform in the league without any compelling evidence.

BTW, I am in agreement that if the chase to 70 is going to happen at the expense of player development and championship readiness....then this may ultimately be a loss we needed to have. Flip's management of the bench has been suspect all season....perhaps our only negative mark in this stellar start. The Utah game was no different. I do commend him on his new found trust in Delfino though. Bballjay, "guessed" right with this dude. He is the truth in my opinion. Our secret weapon come playoff time if he continues his steady incline of playing time.

Micro, from that article, I get that Darko will not be playing for another four years and he will have to be good enough to start out playing 15-20 minutes a game in order to get in at all. He will not be allowed to play through his mistake as just about everyone on the Pistons has done.

He apparently cannot see DMC starting out at 10 minutes, regularly, and improving and earning his extra minutes.

When you do not play a player, how do you know that he will make these mistakes that his teammates will not be able to forgive? I admit Darko is not good enough to earn minutes from the end of the bench, and that is what he is limited to doing. I remember a lot of forum members saying many bad things about Delfino last year, but he has managed to carve out a niche for himself, because he was ALLOWED to have his chance.

I don't know how any player is expected to show his wares if he does not get into the games. But that is what I have been saying forever, and not just about DMC.

And how could Joe even imagine that he will still be here once he is allowed to make a decision for himself on whether to collect rings from the end of the bench or actually play in the NBA? They must REALLY think DMC is stupid.

Personally, I could care less. I'm more concerned why we got beat by Utah than why player X did this, player Y did not play or how player Z who used to be a Piston had a good game.

Darko just ain't important right now. I think Joe's quote makes that pretty clear. This year is not about DMC. So why get all hung up on it? Still got a championship to chase.

Don't try to fool yourself. Darko remains the hottest topic around here. And an extremely important one. With out bigs routinely getting overplayed, absolutely Darko playing is a huge subject. And with us having to face Shaq and Duncan in the playoffs, absolutely Darko is an important subject. Don't be lulled to sleep by Shaq not doing well at the moment. Remember, the playoff schedule is light, and is going to favor the big man in that he will have plenty of rest, and plenty of energy, to score on us. And score on us. And score on us. No Darko, no title. So unless you think championships are not important, the subject of Darko remains very big.

Nice sum-up Berbs, pretty stupid collecting a few $mil. while picking splinters out of his ass.

Don't try to fool yourself.
So you are saying that those hypnotism sessions are a waste of money?

Darko remains the hottest topic around here.
I know. We tried to alter the culture to talking about something interesting like standings, stats or salaries, but it just won't take.

And an extremely important one. With out bigs routinely getting overplayed, absolutely Darko playing is a huge subject. And with us having to face Shaq and Duncan in the playoffs, absolutely Darko is an important subject. Don't be lulled to sleep by Shaq not doing well at the moment. Remember, the playoff schedule is light, and is going to favor the big man in that he will have plenty of rest, and plenty of energy, to score on us. And score on us. And score on us.
F.U.D. always sells. Fyi, that's Fear, uncertainty and doubt.

So unless you think championships are not important, the subject of Darko remains very big.
I think Darko will remain big IRREGARDLESS. Unless someone invents a shrink ray, like in Honey I Shrunk The Kids.

Here is a prophetic vision to go alongside yours. No CB, no championship. Heck, here is another one. No Sheed, no championship. One more for the road, No Flip, no championship.

I'm thinking to start a Darvin Ham Genius Club. The only requirements will be that you have to agree that Darvin Ham has to be on the roster or we do not make the Finals.

more of the company line. different rules for darko than the other players.

mo evans is certainly playing through mistakes. mcdyess was allowed to play through mistakes.

BS. Mo Evans gets to play through mistakes because we absolutely NEED some production behind Rip/Tayshaun. And look at what is happening with Delfino proving he is capable? Mo's minutes are steadily decreasing. Delfino is doing it the hard way, just and Darko has to. He's working hard in practice and playing well in games. We aren't playing him just to play him. We're playing him because we need his production.

As for McDyess, he earned his minutes last year where he was fantastic all year. Just because a player starts slow doesn't mean you give up on him. It's not like he was making huge mistakes like Darko does. He just wasn't hitting his open shots. He did the same thing last year. Started slow, then came on strong mid-season. We're not going to bench him for that.

Darko doesn't fill a NEED. Ben, Sheed, and Dice are plenty capable of filling all of the PF/C minutes. When he was getting minutes at the beginning of the season those were his "freebie" minutes to go out there and get something done. Prove that this team NEEDS him. He didn't. Darko's biggest problem is his rebounding. He either doesn't care or he just sucks at it. Either way it translates as putting out very little effort out there.

BS. Mo Evans gets to play through mistakes because we absolutely NEED some production behind Rip/Tayshaun. And look at what is happening with Delfino proving he is capable? Mo's minutes are steadily decreasing. Delfino is doing it the hard way, just and Darko has to. He's working hard in practice and playing well in games. We aren't playing him just to play him. We're playing him because we need his production.

As for McDyess, he earned his minutes last year where he was fantastic all year. Just because a player starts slow doesn't mean you give up on him. It's not like he was making huge mistakes like Darko does. He just wasn't hitting his open shots. He did the same thing last year. Started slow, then came on strong mid-season. We're not going to bench him for that.

Darko doesn't fill a NEED. Ben, Sheed, and Dice are plenty capable of filling all of the PF/C minutes. When he was getting minutes at the beginning of the season those were his "freebie" minutes to go out there and get something done. Prove that this team NEEDS him. He didn't. Darko's biggest problem is his rebounding. He either doesn't care or he just sucks at it. Either way it translates as putting out very little effort out there.

Believe it or not, there are stat sites that track rebounding just a little bit better than raw numbers.

Rebounding can be looked at by what percent of available rebounds do you get. Believe it or not, Darko is doing just fine on rebounding. Let me know if you don't have the wherewithall to look up the data yourself.

Believe it or not, there are stat sites that track rebounding just a little bit better than raw numbers.



That's so true. There are sites that track almost everything.

If you want, I can give you a site that tracks the most common causes of brain cell death.

When he was getting minutes at the beginning of the season those were his "freebie" minutes to go out there and get something done. Prove that this team NEEDS him. He didn't. Darko's biggest problem is his rebounding. He either doesn't care or he just sucks at it. Either way it translates as putting out very little effort out there.

You're right. He did get some burn before his horrible effort vs. the Knicks. I don't remember him doing much spectacular before that, but I don't get to see every game. I looked back at his stats and nothing really jumps out. He played well in the preseason, but that's the, well, the preseason. You can only point to preseason play for so long. He looked OK in very limited time vs. the Raptors. Something must be going on in practice that we're not privy to that has hurt his standing with the coach and president. Detroit media should be peppering Joe and Flip with more questions about it, but I guess they have to keep their eye on the ball. It's really about the team, isn't it?

BTW, I am in agreement that if the chase to 70 is going to happen at the expense of player development and championship readiness....then this may ultimately be a loss we needed to have.

if we can continue the pace (woulda been nice to win last night and get another game ahead of SA though since they lost) and secure homecourt with 5-10 games left, the bench will get quite a bit of development.

remember we're currently using a 9-man rotation and that's without using davis and that's without hunter...but it's hard to imagine we'd have a playoff roster 11-deep, especially with extended timeouts and starters w/the ability to play longer, which is why i'm not against a 3-for-2 or 2-for-1 trade to improve the bench.

I am really sorry, guys, but it appears that we have hijacked another thread and made it into a Darko one. But if I reply somewhere else, we wouldn't know where it is :confused: .

I've recently considered the way threads get side-tracked. I decided to re-direct my last post to a more suitable thread. See my 10:36pm post in the 'Flip and the bench' thread...that's my solution to the problem. Micro...any other work-arounds?


Sorry again, guys. Can't keep my mouth shut until you all agree with me :frusty: :eyebrows: .

LMAO! :pound:

Something must be going on in practice that we're not privy to that has hurt his standing with the coach and president. Detroit media should be peppering Joe and Flip with more questions about it, but I guess they have to keep their eye on the ball. It's really about the team, isn't it?

I agree that there is more going on here than meets the eye. It is quite unusual for either Joe D. or Flip to criticise a player publicly, and now both have done so with respect to Darko within a few weeks of one another. First, Flip went public with a negative comments about Darko's lack of effort, and now Joe D. has made negative comments about the quality of his play to S.I. (see link provided by Micro above). My guess is that Joe and Flip have concluded that Darko has a fairly serious attitude problem, and that some or even most of this concern is based on his behaviour in practices, team meetings, etc. If they were just concerned about his play (as opposed to his attitude), I do not think they would have gone public with their criticisms.

Last year, Darko really did seem to be sulking at times while on the bench, and his frequent lack of enthusiasm for what his teammates were doing on the court was in marked constrast to, say, the kind of cheerleading Sheed regularly engages in when he is sitting on the bench. I have not paid much attention to Darko's demeanor on the sidelines this season, so I cannot really comment on whether there's been a change for the better (or for the worse) in that regard.

I thought earlier that this might be a kind of breakout year for Darko, but that now seems to be a very remote possibility. It may be that if he has any chance of success in the NBA, it will have to be with a different team.

I've recently considered the way threads get side-tracked. I decided to re-direct my last post to a more suitable thread. See my 10:36pm post in the 'Flip and the bench' thread...that's my solution to the problem.
Thanks.

Micro...any other work-arounds?
Yeah, well Zoso and I can forego the work we do daily like the news and updating fantasy stuff, developing the board etc. to move posts. Not a good idea. Plus there is the inevitable, "You are censoring me! What about free speech! I'll post where I want want!" lashback that can only be cured with booze and a lot of aspirin (preferably at the same time).

BS. Mo Evans gets to play through mistakes because we absolutely NEED some production behind Rip/Tayshaun. And look at what is happening with Delfino proving he is capable? Mo's minutes are steadily decreasing. Delfino is doing it the hard way, just and Darko has to. He's working hard in practice and playing well in games. We aren't playing him just to play him. We're playing him because we need his production.

delfino is doing it the hard way. if he had 3 all stars in front of him he wouldn't be hitting the court to do it. but delfino is an example of what a bench player can do when put on the court to be allowed to develop. if you don't think the steady increase in the quality of delfino's play isn't something good i don't know what is. delfino is getting better because he's playing. delfino is proving he is capable because he's playing.

you are right in a sense though. we don't need darko right now but we will need him in the future. the way we are treating him there will be no reason for him to sign for less with us like tay did. he will bounce for money and more playing time. right when we need him. so flip could play darko 8 minutes every now and keep our # 2 pick happy. it's not all about winning the most regular season games. it's not all about winning 1 title. the pistons have the making of a dynasty. look at san antonio.

As for McDyess, he earned his minutes last year where he was fantastic all year. Just because a player starts slow doesn't mean you give up on him. It's not like he was making huge mistakes like Darko does. He just wasn't hitting his open shots. He did the same thing last year. Started slow, then came on strong mid-season. We're not going to bench him for that.

i have no problem with mcdyess being allowed to work his kinks out. i think it was the right thing to do. i just don't agree that darko shouldn't be allowed to work his kinks out.

can you point out 1 huge mistake darko has made??? for the record darko wasn't starting off slow. he was having steady progress then flip cut his minutes and didn't carry over the confidence of the preseason into the regular season.


Darko doesn't fill a NEED. Ben, Sheed, and Dice are plenty capable of filling all of the PF/C minutes. When he was getting minutes at the beginning of the season those were his "freebie" minutes to go out there and get something done. Prove that this team NEEDS him. He didn't. Darko's biggest problem is his rebounding. He either doesn't care or he just sucks at it. Either way it translates as putting out very little effort out there.
i disagree. you need to look at all the young bigs filling up the stat sheets against our big men. look at them getting outrebounded then come back and say there is no need to develop a young 7 foot shot blocker. darko rebounds at the same rate as rasheed. that's crap saying darko doesn't rebound.

mo evans didn't do much to prove the team needs him then either. but yet he's still consistently getting on the court. getting torched on d and losing the ball out of bounds on offense. he gets the occasional off. rebound and dunk.

Believe it or not, there are stat sites that track rebounding just a little bit better than raw numbers.

Rebounding can be looked at by what percent of available rebounds do you get. Believe it or not, Darko is doing just fine on rebounding. Let me know if you don't have the wherewithall to look up the data yourself.

I don't need "numbers" to analyze Darko's rebounding ability. All I need is eyes. Is there a stat for "gets a hand on the ball, but can't grab it"? Darko would lead the league. He loves to let it bounce off his hands or chest out of bounds, and he loves giving up freebie putback layups. I don't need stats to tell me that.

PisLoy, was that a really derogatory comment by JD? He said the team sit. wouldn't allow Darko to play through alot of mistakes. Not fair to the starters. So either Mo's mistakes are tolerable because he has a good attitude. Or Darko ain't ready. Personally I didn't see him hurting us that much. Maybe our bigs can be rested by Dyess alone?

I don't need "numbers" to analyze Darko's rebounding ability. All I need is eyes. Is there a stat for "gets a hand on the ball, but can't grab it"? Darko would lead the league. He loves to let it bounce off his hands or chest out of bounds, and he loves giving up freebie putback layups. I don't need stats to tell me that.

Maybe Darko is blessed with other skills that overcome the shortcomings you perceive. Like being tall as the dickens. Moving really quick. Great ups. You know, once he gets out there and actually gets comfortable, I bet the stuff you are talking about clears right up. I bet we got a monster rebounder in the making. Can't wait to see him play.

delfino is doing it the hard way. if he had 3 all stars in front of him he wouldn't be hitting the court to do it. but delfino is an example of what a bench player can do when put on the court to be allowed to develop. if you don't think the steady increase in the quality of delfino's play isn't something good i don't know what is. delfino is getting better because he's playing. delfino is proving he is capable because he's playing.

Yes, he was given a few garbage minutes (as Darko was), and he played well in them. Thus, he has earned a larger role on the team. Darko, on the other hand, did not earn more minutes. Whether it be from the games he was playing in to start the season or in practice (for all we know it could be mostly about what they've been doing in practice). Delfino has played well, Darko hasn't. That is the difference.


you are right in a sense though. we don't need darko right now but we will need him in the future. the way we are treating him there will be no reason for him to sign for less with us like tay did. he will bounce for money and more playing time. right when we need him. so flip could play darko 8 minutes every now and keep our # 2 pick happy. it's not all about winning the most regular season games. it's not all about winning 1 title. the pistons have the making of a dynasty. look at san antonio.

If we play him and he starts doing fairly well (not better than Ben/Sheed/Dice, but good enough to demand minutes) what do we do then? You think he's going to re-sign with us to keep his limited role on the team in that situation? I don't know, but I doubt it. Either way I can't see him sticking around. I think Larry wen't about things wrong to begin with, and Darko just ended up in a bad situation. His fragile mental state certainly doesn't help any.


i have no problem with mcdyess being allowed to work his kinks out. i think it was the right thing to do. i just don't agree that darko shouldn't be allowed to work his kinks out.

Darko's "kinks" hurt the team a lot more than Dice's shot not falling. Darko's biggest "kinks" are not offensive things. It's defensive rebounding, man-to-man defense, etc. These are things that Dice brings no matter if his shot is falling or not. Darko really brings nothing to the table if he isn't blocking shots (or if the refs are getting whistle happy).


can you point out 1 huge mistake darko has made??? for the record darko wasn't starting off slow. he was having steady progress then flip cut his minutes and didn't carry over the confidence of the preseason into the regular season.

He hasn't made "huge" mistakes in the scope of things, but he makes bigger mistakes than anyone on the team. Lazy turnovers, letting players get too many easy putbacks, fumbling rebounds, commiting cheapy fouls (he must have an NBA record for 3-point plays against him per 48 minutes), etc. It's not that he does these once a game either. He does them on almost every possession.

As for preseason minutes. Obviously his minutes were going to plummet coming into the regular season. I don't think anyone thought he would get close to the ~23mpg he saw in the preseason. I was hoping for 10-12 mpg, and at the beginning of the season he was getting close to that. But he was just a different player. I really can't explain it.


i disagree. you need to look at all the young bigs filling up the stat sheets against our big men. look at them getting outrebounded then come back and say there is no need to develop a young 7 foot shot blocker. darko rebounds at the same rate as rasheed. that's crap saying darko doesn't rebound.
That's funny because Sheed is a crap rebounder as well (part of the reason I like Dice so much). You saw Memo kill us on the offensive glass against Utah. The same thing happens on a nightly basis. Just because Sheed does it doesn't make it right. Sheed gets away with it because he can strech the defense, hit some shots, and defend the post. And sure, I'd love to have a young 7 foot shot blocker, but right now he's just not ready to contribute to this team. Any minutes we give him would be a detriment to the team, and would be for the future only. That's something Joe D. and Flip have to work out.


mo evans didn't do much to prove the team needs him then either. but yet he's still consistently getting on the court. getting torched on d and losing the ball out of bounds on offense. he gets the occasional off. rebound and dunk.
I agree his D has been lackluster, but he definately did help fill a need. We were in desperate need of a swingman off the bench who could knock down some shots and provide and energy boost. He does that (though he's streaky with his shot). The most important thing is that he's a body to put in there in place of Rip to get him some rest. Darko's problem is that we already have Dice there to rest Sheed/Ben.

Maybe Darko is blessed with other skills that overcome the shortcomings you perceive. Like being tall as the dickens. Moving really quick. Great ups. You know, once he gets out there and actually gets comfortable, I bet the stuff you are talking about clears right up. I bet we got a monster rebounder in the making. Can't wait to see him play.
Last time I checked, being tall was not a skill.

It would be great if he mastered the skills of shooting and rebounding.

Is there a stat for "gets a hand on the ball, but can't grab it"? Darko would lead the league. He loves to let it bounce off his hands or chest out of bounds, and he loves giving up freebie putback layups.
Kwame Brown actually leads the league in this stat.

He hasn't made "huge" mistakes in the scope of things, but he makes bigger mistakes than anyone on the team. Lazy turnovers, letting players get too many easy putbacks, fumbling rebounds, commiting cheapy fouls (he must have an NBA record for 3-point plays against him per 48 minutes), etc. It's not that he does these once a game either. He does them on almost every possession.

And that one must hold the league record for the biggest overstatement of the season. "almost every possession". And "makes more mistakes than anyone on the team".

I am not a big stat guy but I would believe that he has blocked more shots cleanly than ones where he got called for a foul. And has altered or stopped many more shots and that. And even if that is untrue, several of the players have said that he should not worry about the fouls. He should not worry about fouls when he is coming off the bench for relatively short minutes.

It is a losing cause, hoping that things will change here. People throwing rocks at the Darko bandwagon far outnumber the peoplle who want to give a 20 year old a decent shot. Attitude? What teenager does not have an attitude?

We would not be so lucky right now as to have Chauncey and Sheed, if some of their earlier coaches had been a little smarter. They were dumb enough to let them go and here they are with the Pistons, and they had some pretty bad attitudes, too.

And that one must hold the league record for the biggest overstatement of the season. "almost every possession". And "makes more mistakes than anyone on the team".


Per minute, he makes more mistakes than anyone by far. I don't think you can dispute that fact.

Yeah, well Zoso and I can forego the work we do daily like the news and updating fantasy stuff, developing the board etc. to move posts. Not a good idea. Plus there is the inevitable, "You are censoring me! What about free speech! I'll post where I want want!" lashback that can only be cured with booze and a lot of aspirin (preferably at the same time).

I didn't mean to imply moderator involvement...I know you are limited by the software...and you know those limits far better than I.

Playing BW for 50 minutes (with RW out) and having Dale Davis and Darko sleeping on the bench doesn’t make a sense. Who is the couch? Flip or BW maybe?

Yes, he was given a few garbage minutes (as Darko was), and he played well in them. Thus, he has earned a larger role on the team. Darko, on the other hand, did not earn more minutes. Whether it be from the games he was playing in to start the season or in practice (for all we know it could be mostly about what they've been doing in practice). Delfino has played well, Darko hasn't. That is the difference.

darko didn't earn more minutes because he had to be better than 4 former all stars. delfino just had to be better than mo evans. there have been games where darko comes in and shuts down the paint. yet he gets no more playing time. i don't think darko's lack of playing time is because of a lack of skill or lack of playing well only. it's politics and loyalty (loyalty to the big old frontline) also.


If we play him and he starts doing fairly well (not better than Ben/Sheed/Dice, but good enough to demand minutes) what do we do then? You think he's going to re-sign with us to keep his limited role on the team in that situation? I don't know, but I doubt it. Either way I can't see him sticking around. I think Larry wen't about things wrong to begin with, and Darko just ended up in a bad situation. His fragile mental state certainly doesn't help any.

yes. he is more likely to resign with the pistons if we play him and he starts doing well and feels like a part of the team. yes. he will be more likely to stay because he knows as his contract goes on his role on the team of a nba champion will grow.

yes. lb went about it the wrong way definitely. i don't think darko is any more fragile than any other 18 - 21 year old entering the league as a high draft pick. any other draft pick that had been treated like darko would have demanded trades, been late to practice, cussed out the coach. darko only answers questions asked to him by the media. he just wants to play.


Darko's "kinks" hurt the team a lot more than Dice's shot not falling. Darko's biggest "kinks" are not offensive things. It's defensive rebounding, man-to-man defense, etc. These are things that Dice brings no matter if his shot is falling or not. Darko really brings nothing to the table if he isn't blocking shots (or if the refs are getting whistle happy).

the thing about darko is he is always blocking shots. so you can't say if he isn't blocking shots. darko defends the pick and roll better than any of our bigs. players rarely score on darko one on one. he blocks turnarounds, hook shots, whatever comes at him. in garbage time yes darko will concede a layup instead of risking injury but that's another issue. ( i agree with him though on not risking your future in gt)

you are also very wrong about darko's kinks hurting worse than mcdyess. mcdyess is supposed to carry the second unit offensively. with mcdyess shot not falling the second unit would lose leads very quickly and be right back off the court. now that dice's shot is falling better now the second unit is doing better. it's no coincedence that delfino started playing more and better once on the floor with mcdyess and his shot falling. everybody looks better when mcdyess plays well.


He hasn't made "huge" mistakes in the scope of things, but he makes bigger mistakes than anyone on the team. Lazy turnovers, letting players get too many easy putbacks, fumbling rebounds, commiting cheapy fouls (he must have an NBA record for 3-point plays against him per 48 minutes), etc. It's not that he does these once a game either. He does them on almost every possession.

mo evans dribbles the ball out of bounds very often. mcdyess sets more moving screens than any big man i've watched. ben jacks so many free throws it's crazy. rip is a turnover waiting to happen. which one of our big men isn't getting dogged on the boards nowadays??

his fouls is just an example of inexperience and lack of respect from the refs. watch rip on screens he holds, grabs and pulls all the time but rarely gets called.

As for preseason minutes. Obviously his minutes were going to plummet coming into the regular season. I don't think anyone thought he would get close to the ~23mpg he saw in the preseason. I was hoping for 10-12 mpg, and at the beginning of the season he was getting close to that. But he was just a different player. I really can't explain it.

no i wasn't expecting his minutes to stay at over 20. i just point out the preseason because when he was getting the minutes he was responding and getting better. in the regular season his minutes dropped to basically nothing. he had a bad game in new york then he was back to garbage time only like in the lb era. did flip think an inexperienced player like darko wouldn't have a few bad games??? you don't sit a player that was doing well on the bench just cause he has a bad game.

That's funny because Sheed is a crap rebounder as well (part of the reason I like Dice so much). You saw Memo kill us on the offensive glass against Utah. The same thing happens on a nightly basis. Just because Sheed does it doesn't make it right. Sheed gets away with it because he can strech the defense, hit some shots, and defend the post. And sure, I'd love to have a young 7 foot shot blocker, but right now he's just not ready to contribute to this team. Any minutes we give him would be a detriment to the team, and would be for the future only. That's something Joe D. and Flip have to work out.

the future is important. flip and lb don't exactly think about the future. joe d does that's why darko is still here after all these years. i disagree that the minutes would be to the detriment of the team. it is not a given that it will hurt us. playing darko has not lost us a game yet. if he isn't doing well take him out of the game. but put him back in the game the next game.

your point would be valid if other players weren't allowed to come in and stink it up quite a few games in a row. (mcdyess, evans, arroyo) yet game after game they are put right back in.


I agree his D has been lackluster, but he definately did help fill a need. We were in desperate need of a swingman off the bench who could knock down some shots and provide and energy boost. He does that (though he's streaky with his shot). The most important thing is that he's a body to put in there in place of Rip to get him some rest. Darko's problem is that we already have Dice there to rest Sheed/Ben.

look at ben /sheed/dice minutes per game. they are not resting more than they did last year. look at how our bigs perform on back to backs. look at how our bigs perform against the younger bigger big men. either it's they aren't getting enough rest or they are getting old and it's time to think about moving them.

darko playing more only extends thier career and saves them for the playoffs.

What bballjay said!!!!

I agree with most all his points, and I envy his persistence. I see things I disagree with on a lot of posts, but right in the middle of some of my arguments, I begin to lose interest because I know that whatever I say and however much it is true, it is not going to change the mindset of most of the posters. So, I lose interest in arguing.

I am glad that bballjay doesn't.

darko is a good shotblocker, but this team needs boards more than blocks so i think darko needs to box out better and forget about blocking every shot for a while. it seems as if an injury is the only way he'll play.

And that one must hold the league record for the biggest overstatement of the season. "almost every possession". And "makes more mistakes than anyone on the team".

I am not a big stat guy but I would believe that he has blocked more shots cleanly than ones where he got called for a foul. And has altered or stopped many more shots and that. And even if that is untrue, several of the players have said that he should not worry about the fouls. He should not worry about fouls when he is coming off the bench for relatively short minutes.

It is a losing cause, hoping that things will change here. People throwing rocks at the Darko bandwagon far outnumber the peoplle who want to give a 20 year old a decent shot. Attitude? What teenager does not have an attitude?

We would not be so lucky right now as to have Chauncey and Sheed, if some of their earlier coaches had been a little smarter. They were dumb enough to let them go and here they are with the Pistons, and they had some pretty bad attitudes, too.

You got that right. Keep up the good fight.

darko is a good shotblocker, but this team needs boards more than blocks so i think darko needs to box out better and forget about blocking every shot for a while. it seems as if an injury is the only way he'll play.

I agree wholeheartedly, but when will he get the chance to do this?

Soon, I hope, and without someone having to be injured. I certainly hope no injury to one of our bigs comes, and you can believe that, but if there is one coming, the end of the year would be the worst time as we would then have no time to get anyone else ready to fill in. Dale is NOT the answer.

i'm not hoping for an injury, but if it has to happen some time i hope it's sooner than later down the stretch to the playoffs.