Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mikhail1973, Jun 20, 2013.
I can't wait until October 6th this year... #6for10 #BJDay
Over the years, I have purchased over 40 Pistons t-shirts/hats etc. Even right now, Pistons shirts account for >50% of my wardrobe. During the same amount of time, I have purchased only 2 non-Pistons NBA merchandise; both being Utah Jazz t-shirts. That was when Memo signed with them. I guess that makes me a hardcore fan, at least as far as fashion statements go.
However, you can't ignore the economies of scale. 40 shirts x 1000 hardcore fans = 40,000 shirts. 1 shirt x 1,000,000 LeBron fans = 1,000,000 shirts.
The hash tag #BJDay might solicit an unwanted following.
For punishment...behavior modification...you could have your kids count all your Piston merchandise
Its actually not. Die hard fans think that they are what drives a team but it isn't the case. Merchandising isn't important anyway, its all about TV revenue. Die hard fans are outnumbered 10 to 1 by plastic fans. That's just the reality. See GTA V example below
I don't watch NFL and the only two guys I know are Tim Tebow because he is a crazy christian and Tom Brady. That's it.
On the flip side, I can name the starting 5 for pretty much every team in the NBA.
This is whats effective. On reddit you might be led to believe that GTA V was a terrible game because of all these reasons brought up by hardcore gamers, real enthusiasts. And the reasons are all at least semi-legitimate. But non enthusiasts didn't care.
GTA V went on to break every record ever set by any game, bring in $1 billion in just 3 days with only a dual platform release and receive accolades all over the world. 2.25 millioin sales in 5 days in the UK.
Why - because enthusiasts only make up a very small percentage of the actual consumer base.
The NBA store sold out of LeBron Cavaliers throwback jerseys within a week of his decision to move back there. How many of those were bought by hardcore Cavs fans? Not many, I'd wager.
Not so much. GTA is not the equivalent. Gamers are gamers. They are going to buy games they want to play. It doesn't matter if they call themselves enthusiasts or not. They ARE the hardcore fan base and they are driving the revenue. Casual fans DO NOT even buy GTA V.
TV money is NOT the same as casual fans spending money OR fan interest. If the NBA feels fans don't have interest, it doesn't matter how much money ESPN is spending to have broadcast rights. That is completely separate from fans being disinterested. We didn't invent this Adam Silver himself is attempting to address it via his own words/actions. If TV revenue where the end of discussion, we wouldn't be talking about this because the NBA is raking in more TV money than ever before.
I'm also not willing to accept a single news event causing a spike in sales to represent the bulk of a teams merch sales. They have merch stores in every arena across the country and they are constantly selling merch during every game. Any time ANY big name player changes teams, there's a spike in jersey sales. However, that only happens a few times every couple of years. In the meantime, teams need to maintain consistent sales of merch and that doesn't come from casual fans.
You do realise that Basketball is now the second most popular sport in the world right? Like it has been booming in popularity almost as fast as football (soccer, not the american kind).
And it is exactly the same. You come on this board complaining that you are a real fan and that you feel let down, yet you still consume the product. You are the person I am talking about in the GTA V analogy. And just one more thing, you wrote
I really hope that this is some inside joke. You think every one of the 60 million or so owners of GTA V know the grand theft auto lore? Have played/owned all the games? Dedicate large chunks of their life to gaming? Is owning GTA V the litmus test for being a gamer? I mean, I own about 200 games across 3 platforms and have logged thousands of hours playing , but I don't own GTA V, so I'm just a filthy casual?
And how is TV revenue not the same as fan interest? Are you reading what you write? If fan interest goes down, so does the value of the TV rights. Those two things are so intrinsically and inextricably linked that you can virtually call them the same thing.
Who says that it represents the bulk of the teams sales? I was making the point that the system was overloaded as a result of people jumping on the LBJ Cavs bandwagon. This was just a demonstration of a larger point - which you supported later in that quote - that hardcore fans are outnumbered by plastic fans.
And I agree, when big ticket players change teams it will naturally cause a spike in jersey sales. But what I am talking about is that the narrative is driving consumption. Did they run out of jerseys when LBJ went to Miami? No because the narrative wasn't supportive. But now, the prodigal son returns and all of a sudden it's acceptable to hitch to that giant wagon.
Let me make this very clear, this is incorrect. It's not even close to correct. Hardcore fans are vocal, sure. They care, definitely. But they are not the biggest consumers of the NBA line of goods, except on an individually comparative base. Lets just leave that there.
You clearly have no concept of what "casual" fan means, but we'll let that go. ...on 2nd thought, no we won't. It's second most popular among FANS. People who have vested interest in the outcomes of games...clearly not CASUAL.
A) Please to be producing the quote where I said I "feel let down." You don't know what you're talking about. You don't just get to assign statements to me so you can make your point. B) I am NOT the person you are talking about because I AM a fan of the GTA series and I've bought them in the past. I've owned almost every game system since Atari 2600. I AM the hardcore fan. I buy them. Period.
The inside joke is you not knowing the meaning of "casual." One individual not owning a game doesn't mean that person is not a gamer. It's the same reason the COD Series is the best selling game because they have huge multitudes of diehard fans. You're kidding yourself AND us if you seriously believe that most of Activision's sales come from people who don't really give a damn about the game. You can hold on to this fallacy that the majority of people who buy things don't care about them, hell, another example Magic the Gathering rakes in over $200 Million in revenue. Same thing. Huge customer base...NOT casual
relaxed and unconcerned.
How about YOU read what I write instead?
Also, this talking to me like I'm some kind of idiot...knock it off. We can disagree, the rest is unnecessary.
There are huge differences in "fan interest" and TV revenue.
Fan Interest (US):
35 percent of fans call the NFL their favorite sport
Major League Baseball (14 percent)
College football (11 percent)
Auto racing (7 percent)
NBA (6 percent)
NHL (5 percent)
College basketball (3 percent).
NFL: $5 Billion
MLB: $1.3 Billion
College Football (5 biggest conferences): $1.1 Billion
NASCAR: $820 Million
NBA: $930 Million
MLS: $90 Million
For the NBA having less than half of the "interest" than Baseball it's being paid in TV revenue for not much less than MLB. Clearly "TV Revenue" and "Fan Interest" are NOT the same.
You just saying it doesn't make it true. So....no.
We can disagree on this all day. I got time. I know you seem to believe that the actual fan base is a tiny number of people hunkered down in front of their TV while this huge throng of "casual fan" who doesn't actually give a damn about the teams/sport are the ones buying up everything, but you're just wrong. I've lived in both Portland AND the Detroit area and in both cities it's diehards who are buying tickets, jerseys, t-shirts, posters, hats, driving the NBA League Pass subscription numbers, and a host of other things. Casual fans show up if someone gives them a ticket for free. They'll buy a t-shirt to GIVE to a diehard fan. They MIGHT pick up a hat if they like the colors or the design. They go to bars to sometimes glance up at a game if it's on and they can be bothered to care. They are NOT the driving force. Diehard fans are large in number and spend money on the teams they love. Just like the NFL fanbase.
I wasn't calling you a casual game fan. But you can't tell me that even a majority of the GTA V owners are hardcore fans of the series.
COD has diehard fans? Since when can a 15 year old kid who can't actually purchase the game be a die hard fan. I'd say that the game specifically caters to casual gamers - compare it with say any AD&D game of the last 2 decades. Its a casual game in the same vein that CS:GO is a casual game. Sure, there are hardcore CS:GO players, but the vast majority don't fall into this category. The learning curve is not steep, and time costs are relatively low.
The reality is that there is some sort of continuum between a 'casual' fan/player and a 'hardcore' player. We obviously disagree about where on that continuum each of those two definitions lie.
Says the guy who just put in a definition of casual - I wonder what the implication is there. I don't think you are an idiot at all, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered engaging you at all. This kind of a conversation is interesting to me, nothing more.
So firstly, that doesn't take into account that a new deal is being signed, secondly, that is some seriously cherry picked info right there.
For starters, the MLB season is double the size of the NBA, so of course the deal is going to be proportionally larger. But more important is viewer impact
So the following of the NBA is fairly strong compared with the MLB. But more importantly, the MLB is losing viewers.
That isn't what I said. What I said was that casual fans outnumber hardcore fans. Neither of us have provided much evidence outside of anecdotes, so the point is moot.
The other part of this is that hardcore fans aren't dissuaded by some of the things we have mentioned. I still watch Piston's games even though they suck. But a casual fan won't. They are the fans collected through narrative and that is the reason that outlets such as ESPN create hype around certain events. That is where the money is.
Wow, that escalated quickly....
I think that I might be able to referee this debate by summing up some aspects of both of your positions.
(You guys are both right as far as I can tell if I'm understanding you correctly.)
1. The NBA focuses the majority of their marketing initiatives on *media darlings.
2. The NBA is more concerned about *bandwagon cats than creating a culture of of hard core fan allegiance to their teams.
3. The NBA has dumbed down their product for the casual fan by promoting a select group of superstars over the true beauty and nuance of the game of basketball.
4. The NBA is winning the marketing war by this approach. Fan interest around the world is high & the league is laughing all the way to the bank.
5. While the league is very successful in growing their brand by focusing on attracting casual fans, die hard fans like the members of this forum often feel alienated and ignored by the NBA's outreach efforts.
*credit - Rasheed Wallace
Also, the strategy of the NBA and the strategy of ESPN et al is two completely different things with different goals.
Keep in mind that we are hardcore fans that root for a last place team. We're bound to feel alienated.
However, you can't ignore the economies of scale. 40 shirts x 1000 hardcore fans = 40,000 shirts x 30 teams = 1,200,00 shirts. 1 shirt x 1,000,000 LeBron fans = 1,000,000 shirts.
Passionate debate. Now let's watch Spencer Dinwiddie dribble and stuff ....
I'm hyped about Dinwiddie's active posterior!
What was the name of this thread again??
Dude doesn't look like he'll be a be a red-shirt rookie to me.
He looks like he'll be ready to go in training camp.
For those of us who don't enjoy watching Brandon Jennings, here's a small glimmer of hope.
Best mustache on the team?
Fear the Stache?
wow. Have to really trust the guy holding the handle ends. One or both getting loose could ruin your day if they caught you in the junk
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