A boy can wish....

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Pwn Toney, Dec 1, 2006.

  1. max

    max All-Star

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    That was against NewJersy in the 2nd round of 04 when he pulled Okur in the OT loss. Yes I remember I was often frusterated with Brown. That was his 1st championship in over 20 years of coaching, then all of a sudden he can't lose.
     
  2. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Not sure this thread is following the path that Low intended.
    Of the coaches that 16 mentioned only Hill & Mussleman would have been available at the time... upgrades?
    McMillan may or may not have been an option.... he hasn't proven to be any more successful.
    I can appreciate Roscoes post... he's not taking the easy route by following the masses.
    Let's be honest... there are no coaches that are faultless... if we had Riley or Jackson they would not be playing young guys with potential either.
    Daddy Rich didn't play Bedford, Nevitt, Banks, Hastings, Dembo (Wolverine Great's favorite)... did any of these guys have hidden talent like DMC, Amir & Brahma that was unrealized?
    Determining fault between coaches and players is never easy because we don't know if they followed instructions.... or the play was available and the simply missed the opportunity.
    I would also like to see more of a disciplinarian in our coaching ranks... but I think the strategies should match the current talent... do we have the players in place to pound it inside and break down a defense (better than other teams)?
    Do we have perimeter lock down defenders that don't need help?
    Shared blame and shared credit seems in order.
     
  3. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    I was down on Flip after last year. If you weren`t you were one of the very few.

    I am willing to give Flip a second chance. As someone pointed out in a post or thread a couple of weeks ago; Flip seems to shun responsiblity for his teams lack of focus, or flat out bad play. I don`t like that attitude from him, and neither do the players I`m sure.

    Flip will have one chance to win with his wide open - no Ben offense and zone defense, IMO. So far, so good. However, we know the real test will be in the playoffs, where Flip seems to never win the BIG ONE.

    The injury to Sheed did make a significant difference in last years playoff run, along with Ben`s unhappiness. This year, Ben is gone and barring an injury to Sheed (our MVP IMO) we should be one of the two top seeds in the weak EC.

    Flip`s bench management and abilty to motivate his players will determine his future as Piston`s coach.

    Those areas seem to be his weak points. I could care less what the Pistons do in the regular season; this postseason will resolve some questions about Flip and this current Piston team.
     
  4. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    And I'm not sure I'd put Larry today in that 3 or 4 coach crowd - given the way the game is played today - which looks way different than three years ago. Larry hit the right time and the right team for his way of playing.

    I don't put Flip in the top five today, but close by.
     
  5. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ok, 'scoe...I was going to let you slide with this one, but that's just blasphemy.

    I guess if you count playing more than someone as playing better then, yes, Evans outplayed Delfino.

    However, you can't sell me on that one based on the outlandishly poor performances that Evans turned in on a regular basis and continued to get minutes. Floating on the court for huge stretches as a non-factor should not qualify as contributing.

    ...and Flip is hardly top 10. You put him in Milwaukee and/or Boston and they still suck. His coaching ability is just enough to keep a team afloat with its current talent level. His coaching has never and will never produce a team that plays above it's "on paper" level.
     
  6. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    The point with Brown was that over his 30 year career, every team he took over became better even without drastic roster changeovers. Hell, he took the league's laughing stock to the playoffs at a time when that was unheard of. That is a testament to his coaching ability. The fact that he can get more out of certain players and certain rosters than other coaches makes him valuable. Not necessarily playing the "next best thing."

    For everyone who was ticked off at LB for the "guy" he didn't play...you couldn't ever deny the results. At the end of it all, that's all I cared about....the results.

    I don't care if my guy doesn't play 40 min. a night as long as we win. Some people (who shall remain nameless) actually had complaints about a championship team. Who does that?

    I get a ton of guff on this board for being unhappy with a team that seems at times to intentionally play a style of basketball that NEVER succeeds, but when the team actually WINS the title, people are %%%%%ing because their guy wasn't used enough to do it and they are treated as "right thinking" people who have a great point about the coach's style.

    Will I ever understand why? NO.

    LB and Ben Wallace were two of the biggest reasons this team won a title in 2004, yet they were both run out of town and essentially treated with hatred. While guys who have proven nothing, produced nothing, provided no results, and have constantly been disappointing are given unlimited excuses, opportunities, chances, and apologetic explanations for their failure. If some insist on pretending the 2004 Championship didn't happen and treating those responsible as if they had ruined the franchise....fine. Just don't expect me to join in and sing along.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I was hoping you wouldn't let it slide. I'm trying to increase your forum activity level. :pound:
    No, I just count silly things like shooting %, productivity, hustle, playing hurt, performing in limited minutes, bla blabla. Now that Evans is gone, Flip had to yank the carrot again and remind Delfino that minutes are earned, not given.

    Delfino is 10x more talented than Evans. Evans just flat outworked him last season. it's a maturity issue.
    Which is exactly why I said that Delfino didn't deserve more minutes last year. He had a couple Darko-esque performances where everyone oooooed and aaaaaaahed over his defensive lockdown ability but for the most part (go look up how many games he played) he just floated or flat out stunk (see Orlando game he started).
    So you are saying that Popovich wouldn't suck in Boston? You think that Phil Jackson can turn around Milwaukee?

    I didn't realize you were a prophet. I just thought you were a party pooper. I wouldn't bet against Flip because he's going to make a run at a title this year, without headband Wallace and running things his own way.

    FYI, seeing as how you are watching Chicago games with the vertical adjustment tweaked so that it looks like Ben Wallace can still jump, we're second in the EC and on an 8 game streak. We're projected out to win 56 games, and even if we don't, this team is going to cut some people up in the playoffs.

    You can dream, you can wish, but it is what it is and it will be what it be. We finally have a center who can finish at the rim and 5 starters who are all capable of putting up a double double.
     
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You are unhappy a lot, and the guff is the only way we can tell you we still care about you. :D
     
  9. max

    max All-Star

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    Okur seems to be doing pretty good now. LB did not really like him. I understand not everyones going to play but that 7-man rotation in 04/05?

    Main thing that I did not like about Brown was how he left. Started when he stole the championship festivities by announcing his possible retirement. Left for hip surgery without even telling the team beforehand. Told all his assistants in the summer of 04 ( right after the title ) that they should seek other employment because he did not know how much longer he would be coaching for. Could not commit to Dumars that he would be able to last the 05/06 season. NY would be my dream job, ...
     
  10. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I disagree. Evans had more experience...esp. more experience as a 3rd option off the bench so he knew how to play in that situation. Delfino was raw talent. You don't get that kind of player to come in and "pick his moment"

    Evans made great hustle plays and he's just doing more of that in LA. Like Tay, Shane battier...Delfino is a jack of all trades glue guy. YOu don't toss him out for 5 minutes every 8 games and hope he sticks.

    The way the pistons played was almost mythical. It was the most inspiring basketball run I remember. People wanted to crucify delfino for his comments in a foreign press when he was left off the team but it was more inexcusable IMO to have all that crap surrounding LB. He's the F-N leader on a championship run. I think he let the team down big time. SO yeah he was a better talent than flip. but probably too volatile a personality.
     
  11. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    That 7-man rotation got us mere minutes from a second championship in 2 season. I have no complaints.

    His successor hasn't show anywhere near that level of success with his "expanded rotations", "massive offensive playbook", "zone defense", or "non-abusive" coaching style. Flashy offenses, constant barn-burners with subpar teams, or awesome regular season records are wooden nickels to me.

    I'll take the former.

    I followed just as much Championship media as the next Pistons fan and I never once got the feeling that he "stole" any kind of festivities. Anyway, how do you "steal" festivities. The guy has health problems....he's a senior freakin citizen for God's sake. It's a legitimate question. If he's asked, I hate when people try to BS questions just for the sake of maintaining some "ideal" that people hold about speaking to the media. It's rubish, just be straight with me.

    If something like that comes about, its a surgery, not a vacation. You can't always plan them 6 months in advance.

    He didn't tell them to seek employement, it was a suggestion for possible preparation. Health issues aren't fake, just because you don't like a person.

    OK. Let's make you a senior with an artificial hip, and prostate issues that have already resulted in two recent surgeries. Now, let's put you in room with Joe D and Bill D and the realization that your job consists of constant travel, medication regiments, and most likely a special diet.

    Now lets get you to promise Bill, Joe, and God that you won't have any health problems. 100% Guaranteed.

    C'mon. This is reality. He didn't have a problem promising that to NY because THEY NEVER ASKED HIM TO.

    I can see that his is an exercise in futility as no matter how many times you, I, or The Pope himself quotes the actual article that PROVES that LB's statement was in response to a question regarding his coaching history. You and everyone else who hates Larry Brown will refuse to believe the truth.

    This was a PAST TENSE statement along the lines of "...being from NY, coaching the Knicks had always been a dream job."

    You can play the semantics game with me if you like, but this was NEVER a statement of desire to leave Detroit and go to NY. But every reporter from here to the Nile jumped on it and printed the giant headline:

    LB CALLS NY "DREAM JOB"

    Now, you can pretend that no one's statements are ever taken out of context and used to suit the individual writting the story, but neither you, nor I, are that naieve.

    But, if you feel that what I'm saying is false or an excuse, it won't matter. So, we'll be right back to square one on this subject.
     
  12. max

    max All-Star

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    Low - Its a difference of opinion on how you want to interperate what happened. I would not bring it up if not for the poor LB got fired posts every so often.

    Taking everything into account and its too much to post and I don't have the energy, desire or time to post everything. But taking into account all that transpired back then LB did not seem to want to stay on the Pistons coach and only pretended like he did so he could get the buyout.

    Now Carlisle was fired. I felt the guy got shafted but what can you do. LB was techincally fired and I believe he did all he could to steer things in that direction. You have a different opinion then fine.
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'm scared of your post back to me Low, but this is all preliminary to you and I doing a rap battle engagement that ends me crying in front of 250 strangers in a basement club. lol

    Seriously though, I learn a lot from having to prove my opint of view to you. You're no dummy. I just think you are not willing to give Flip even the smallest of chances, and if you did, you might be able to admit that he is doing a fine/ok/good job this year.

    10 man rotation. All of the starters are producing and when Nazr gets into the inevitable foul trouble, we get to make full use of Dice and Davis/Maxiell.

    pass99 wrote that the East is weak and he is right. We gotta worry about Orlando now, and Miami/Cleveland later. That's it. No torture chamber like the West playoffs where both the Spurs and Mavs are poison pills.

    We can do this. And we can win a title. And I haven't eaten all day so I might be a little light headed. :)
     
  14. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's impossible to count those things because the Dolphin didn't use any of them to determine which guy played.

    Here's the difference, Delfino would get A game to see how he performed. If it wasn't a 15 pt game.....benched for the next 5 to 10.

    Mo got EVERY GAME to go out there, suck and still get burn the next night. For every jump-passing turnover, missed corner 3, charging call, and wide open rebound given up without a fight...Mo didn't have to suffer the concequences for his poor performances by sitting.

    No, Dolphin simply held another press conference and delcared "Mo is playing well for us right now" whether or not Evans was even the subject of the question.

    I'm saying that either one of those two would get a hell of a lot more out of those teams than Saunders could.

    You of all people know I don't care how the Bulls perform as a team. I don't need to go into that one all over again. My concern was for Ben on THIS team. End of story.

    When reality smacks your sweet fleshy face AGAIN at the end of this season (when were getting punked in PIP and being forced to get 70% of our offense from 15 ft and farther), I hope you will have printed my comments for review.
     
  15. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    If there's one thing you'll never hear me call LB it's "poor".

    However, my opinion is that he was fired based on perception and not reality. However, if people insist on having a certain perception of you, there is nothing on earth you as an individual can do to change that and I think that's why LB was forced out.

    I always felt that reality is, he's under contract. He's the best coach in the L and until he calls me to say he's not coming. He's my coach.

    I don't care what the perception is of where he wants to be. I don't care where he REALLY wants to be. He's under contract and he or I must break that.....and for my money his coaching results would have been worth me NOT breaking that contract.
     
  16. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I make no bones about it. I am biased.

    I never wanted Flip here in the first place and I have ZERO tolerance for him.

    Doing a fine/ok job to me is just that. Fine/OK.

    However, fine/ok will not win a title with this team.
     
  17. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    crap....all this :rant2: has made me hungry...

    I'm just going to eat.:stirthepot:
     
  18. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    If we're saying that playoff results are all that matter and that literally nothing else is important, then I think we need to reminisce about just how fine a line we're talking about. In a recent interview that Roscoe posted, Flip talked about how Sheed's injury was still hurting him even coming into this season. I remember hearing at the time about how it would have kept him out for at least a couple of weeks if it had happened during the regular season. And Larry never have to deal with an injury that serious to any of the starters. He also had to deal with The Hedgehog coaching Miami, not Riles (talk about coaching making a difference), in addition to a boosted Miami roster that started gelling just at the right time last year. No lame-a$% punks like Damon Jones throwing up stupid shots in the last minutes of a seventh game for Miami, a la the '05 conference finals. Let's also remember Wade's injury in '05, and the fact that the Pistons needed a big run in the last two minutes of that Game 7 to pull it out. And, checking the stats for that game, the points in the paint were won by Miami, by a margin of...52-30.

    Now for the "to be sure" paragraph: to be sure, I'm not saying that I think Flip is a better coach than Larry (obviously he isn't), although that's not exactly the same question as "was it better for the Pistons to break it off with LB and hire Flip after '05." I'm also not saying that points in the paint aren't an important stat. But staying healthy is important too, and the health situation between the Heat and the Pistons was precisely reversed between the '05 and '06 series.

    The Pistons also had plenty of struggles in their playoff runs under LB. There was the aforementioned NJ series in '04, plus the fact that without The Block, they might very well have lost to Indy in the next round. Yes, they did win all those series, and LB was the guy in charge, so he deserves credit. His "piece de resistance" was undoubtedly the '04 Finals, where he outcoached the Zen Master all over the arena, taking full advantage of every single mis-match and every single possible edge for the Pistons. It was a masterful performance, undoubtedly the highlight of Larry's HOF career.

    But, in the overall picture, we had our share of good fortune under him in the playoffs, and some bad luck last season with Sheed's ankle. That matters, too. The results matter more than anything else--obviously--but if you're just going to point to the bottom line and forget about everything else, then hey, Barry Switzer was a great NFL coach. After all, he did win a championship.
     
  19. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Just a couple points D4E.

    Sheed had plantar faciitis in '04 that's not far from an ankle injury.

    and 52-30 is still a far cry from the 50-16 arse whoopin we took last season...and the constant PIP beatings we have been taking on an almost nightly basis this year.
     
  20. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    do i think flip is the best coach? no. do i think he makes mistakes? yes. did i want mcmillan here over flip 2 years ago? not gonna deny that. do i think he doesn't get credit sometimes when he should? yes (i truly believe he outcoached riley thursday against the heat).

    the east is as weak as it's ever been. i truly believe if we make the finals that the pistons won't lose.

    one thing that's going to help us is that last year we were winning so many games by double-digit points that we really never faced any adversity. everything came so easy. this year we're having tight games in the 4th and for the past 8 games we've closed them out every single time.

    in my opinion, we're in far better shape than you think.
     

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