A boy can wish....

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Pwn Toney, Dec 1, 2006.

  1. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Have to absolutely disagree with you. I don't think any player has ever EARNED playing time with Flip.

    Flip is obsessive/compulsive. He has a view of reality in his head, and nothing he sees will change what he believes. He is the George Bush of the NBA. Once Flip makes up his mind about about a player, nothing can change it. So, when Flip brought in Evans to be his backup 2, nothing was going to change it. When Flip decided Darko was a bust, nothing was going to change it. And when Flip brought in Murray to be his backup 2 nothing is going to change that.

    So, no matter how much better Delfino has looked than Murray, Murray will continue to play over him, because in Flip's mind, Murray is better. The only reason Delfino is even playing now, is because Joe probably flipped out (pun intended) when he read McCoskey's piece about Delfino being taken out of the rotation.

    Nobody earns pt with Flip. Murray was given it, and Delfino was ordered to play.
  2. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    New Year's Resolution: Not to have any more discussions RE: LB and/or Ben Wallace

    Goal for 2007: Find a way to keep quantity of new posts from = 0 because of New Year's Resolution.
  3. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    you can always post about rip and tay Low.
  4. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    I don't remember hearing much about Sheed's foot problems in '04. Was it really as serious as his ankle injury in the playoffs last season?

    As for PIP, I don't think the stats so far this season will support your point. Yes, there was the infamous 70-28 PIP differential against Milwaukee on opening night, and maybe a somewhat lopsided number in one or two other losses, but I'm pretty sure they've done a lot better than 52-30 in most games so far this year. They did get beat out 56-30 by NY last night, but...they still won.

    Overall, my point in bringing this up was that PIP might not be that definitive a stat in comparing coaches. I don't know the exact numbers on PIP average under Larry as compared to Flip, though I'm willing to assume that it was better under Larry (I've seen some related stats that seem to suggest that). But, do you need good PIP numbers to advance past Miami in a decisive playoff game, which is, according to the "playoff results tell the entire story" Low paradigm, the entirety of the for LB over Flip? Game 7 in '05 suggests otherwise.
  5. max

    max All-Star

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    I am trying. I let one, two,,, LB was unjustly fired posts go by, every so often I can't help myself.

    You can explain away a particular incident but looking at the whole picture I don't believe LB was honest in the post-departure press conference. He had that media genious Joe Glass advising him and heck you can probably even draw some tampering with the Knicks.

    Whatever, LB's gone and he is not comming back. Appreciate the title year and would have liked that things had gone differently but they didn't.
  6. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    let's check the numbers.

    first 16 games:

    flip - 22 mins/game
    delfino - 14 mins/game
    difference of: 8 mins/game

    last 6 games:

    flip - 16 mins/game
    delfino - 14 mins/game
    difference of: 2 mins/game

    delfino's time hasn't increased on average, although after 3 straight games of less than 10-minutes per, he's only had one sub-10 minute game in his last 6. flip, on the other hand, has steadily received fewer and fewer minutes.

    so i don't think you could say our saunders is just handing minutes over to murray.
  7. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's really not a study in exact numbers if I am making it sound that way. I am more interested in the efforts to attempt higher percentage shots. We take a higher number of outside shots than I feel is condusive to a championship run. So, I don't think it's so much about the actual numbers as it is our opponents will have a much easier time scoring by getting higher percentage shots closer to the basket. That's also where our tougher defense came in handy for us during the championship year.
  8. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Low, in that general sense, I basically agree with you. And generally speaking, I think even the exact PIP numbers would support the contention that the Pistons were taking higher percentage shots under LB than they have under Flip.

    However, I think it's still worth pointing out that in the most critical game result in the LB vs. Flip comparison between '05 and '06, the Pistons were badly outscored on PIP against Miami in Game 7 of '05, and yet they were still able to win. Had they lost that game--which they came very close to doing--one could easily point to the PIP and say that was why they lost. And LB would have gotten no farther than Flip did last year (obviously I'm just talking about the last two seasons, not including the 'ship that clearly weighs in LB's favor). So is it all that obvious to group together the conclusion that "we beat Miami under LB but lost to them under Flip, so LB did better" with the argument that "we went inside more under LB and got better shots, and that's why we did better under him"? What I'm saying is, well, not necessarily.

    Actually, looking at some more box scores for that Miami-Detroit '05 series: in the Pistons' two wins in Miami, Game 1 and then Game 7, the PIP stat was exactly the same in both games: 52-30 in favor of Miami.
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    This thread is really lively now.

    I only have one more thing to add at this time.

    The Pistons are the Deathstar, and this season, barring a miracle by the rebellion, will be online and ready to destroy entire eastern conference franchises in a single blast.
  10. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    So when Detroit is playing Orlando in the EC Finals, does that make Sheed Darth Vader and Darko, Luke Sky Walker?
  11. max

    max All-Star

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    Miami brought in what 6 or 7 new guys in 05/06? Different team. And those 6 games were the best they played. Miami guys were hitting all those difficult shots, Williams went 8-8 or something in game 6 - compare that to how Damon Jones played in 05.

    Besides Pistons were the injured team in 06. Wade completly missed game 6 in 05. Shaq was banged up.

    Lot more went on besides the Pistons changing head coaches.
  12. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Right, max. Plus the Heat changing head coaches as well!
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That's a joke right?
  14. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    We aren't that far off base you and I. My intention wasn't to insist that PIP alone are the determining factor. I just think it's one of the results that highlight the differences in philosophy between Flip and LB. I don't particularly care for Flip's coaching philosophy and to date there hasn't really been any substance in MIN or DET (as far as playoff performance goes) to change my mind.
  15. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    I assume you are talking about current coaches because most certainly there have been a lot more than 3 or 4 coaches all time better than Brown.

    For my money I would take over Brown any day of the week among current coaches

    Pat Riley
    Phil Jackson
    George Popovich

    Then I would place Brown in the next tier somewhere between 4th and 10th

    Last year's coaches rankings


    The davis21wylie Factor: 2005-06 NBA Coach Rankings
  16. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Right on Bro!! My exact sentiments and you said it a lot better than I could.
    :gun1:
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    This thread could not have went in the direction of a boy can wish that Flip will put his past playoff woes behind him and bring home the hardware.
  18. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Most people aren't aware that Brown coached arugably one of the most talented pro-basketball teams ever (The Denver Rockets of the ABA) in 1974-75 and 1975-76 winning a total of 125 games and only losing 43 for a .726 winning percentage and yet he wasn't able to win a title either year!!!

    Denver Rockets (1967 - 1975) 1974 Stats, History, Awards and More

    Denver Nuggets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    :hoops:
  19. max

    max All-Star

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    I was not aware of that. I also have to wonder. Ok, he made every team he coached better but was that because he always bolted when he saw that things were about to go south again? Did any team go on to win a title soon after him?

    I don't know. Going to get The Low putting another Sith tazer move on me again with this.
  20. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Brown has never felt comfortable coaching non-American born and educated players. As far as I know there has only been 1 non American born and educated player that has succeeded under Brown and that was Rick Smits. After Smits I believe you have to go to Kukoc and Okur to find any non-American born and educated player that has played more than 100 games for Brown.

    In the beginning of Brown's career you could argue that there were none or hardly any non American born and educated players in the NBA and that statement would be correct. But over the last 5 to 10 years that is not the case. Especially over the last 5 years that Brown coached.

    Brown never liked the foreign game and the style of play that its players played.

    I think for him it was a strong bias that harmed his teams over his last 5 to 10 years of his coaching, regardless of whether they won a NBA title or not.

    :nerd2:

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