airing of my grievances

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Griffin, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Indeed. As time goes on, the ability to recognize and develop Euro talent, as well as the credibility of treating Euro players well will be a pre-requisite for every franchise.

    Me too. I don't think I can handle having high expectations deflated for the 3rd straight year. Losing 4 games in a series is like a slow death.

    Besides, the "give the young guys a chance" folks should be able to appreciate the next year or two unless Joe does make some drastic changes to compete this season. We have fresh new faces coming next year, and let's face it, Acker, Blalock, Maxiell and Johnson were all minor steals given their relative position in the draft. It's hard to find value outside of the top 15, and the Pistons may have done it with their last 4 consecutive picks.

    So yeah, I feel what Griff is feeling, and at the same time, I'm not going to spend the whole year disappointed. There is a lot of ball to look forward to as Joe evaluates who out of this group is worth keeping long term.
  2. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

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    Griff that was outstanding. It describes to a tee the root of my discomfort each time I watch our boys trot out on the court.

    It really ticks me off to watch them go out like a supernova, from twin finals appearences to best record while destroying everyone in sight, to a playoff KABOOM followed by sudden silence. :pout:

    I know the 06-07 story isn't complete but ..........
  3. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I keep rereading grif’s post. I keep looking for misstatements and factual errors he surely must have made. I keep wanting to find something wrong. I’m not having a lot of luck. I didn’t expect this season to start well. But, I never imagined that to make my 8-7 first month prediction the team would need a 5-2 run to finish. I also never quite imagined how bad 3 and 5 or even 8 and 7 might feel. I don’t recognize the team and I’m not all that sure that Ben in the lineup would have made all that much difference. This team has the stink of the one that finished the playoffs last year, not the one that played in the regular season.

    Murray notwithstanding, I really do believe the talent is there for 55-60 wins. But I’m realizing now more than ever that talent doesn’t produce wins. Most teams have talent. Not very many teams have heart and fire. Until someone comes out in the pre-game interviews and says that “we got beat, we got embarrassed, and now we’re mad as hell and we’re not going to take it any more”, nothing is going to change. Maybe they don’t have the best coach (all right, no maybe), but this isn’t about the coach. This is about what beats behind that Pistons logo on the front of the shirts. Right now we got a team of tin men and cowardly lions.
  4. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    I'd just like a sign that Joe sees it too. After he chose Flipball over Benball, my confidence in Joe is shaken. If Joe's still Joe, then it will be fun to watch him build another contender. I don't worry about him finding the players to do it, but I do worry about finding another coach.,
  5. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    it was always going to be a 'catch 22' with ben.
    sign him to max dollars - sign your long term future away
    let him walk - sign your short term future away

    by the time this season ends it may not matter about the dreaded 'chauncey situation'. our team might be a no.8 seed and worth blowing up anyway.

    if we were to rebuild i think tay and rip are the only guys who can stay. those two can fit in and play with any team, any group of players. CB needs the right situation and sheed is looking more and more like dice v2 every game.

    i'd be more excited watching a team with energetic and passionate youngsters battling it out and losing than watching an aging and slow team not battling and still losing.

    look at all the talk j-max has started around here and he plays what, 10 minutes a night.

    most of us saw all this happening, but its still difficult to swallow.
  6. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    What can you do when the owner doesn't want to spend anymore money and want's to stay as far away from the luxury tax as possible? While Joe D. has made some questionable decisions most of his decisions have been handicapped by Davidson.

    Davidson is also the reason why the Pistons will not be moving back downtown anytime soon even though Mike Ilitch has approached him several times about looking into building an arena together for the Wings and Pistons in downtown Detroit.
  7. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    This team we are watching doesn't have direction or focus. They are just going thru the motions living off the fumes of what they did in the past. We don't have guy's willing to take the punishment in the paint and there is not a commitment to defense anymore.

    True the NBA focus has changed due to the Stern mandate but you still have to be respectable defensively and keep guy's out of the paint. You are not going to win many games letting teams score 70pts in the paint and out rebounding you on the glass.
  8. Griffin

    Griffin First Round Draft Pick

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    quick thoughts so far:

    Nice to know that I'm not alone.

    interesting that nobody's defending Flip Saunders.

    i agree that all is not lost this season.

    Tay & Rip are definite keepers if something does go down.

    give me competitive failure over lethargic victory any day.

    and just because: is there any value in a Fire Millen-type uprising in regards to Flip Saunders?
  9. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Lots of people sure were criticizing the "Flip haters" earlier. What happened to them?

    Nothing in the least bit the matter with being wrong. But at least admit it or defend your guy.
  10. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    That is one good post, up and down. My beliefs are pretty much dead on with those, except for one thing. I was not devastated by the departure of Ben. I would have been if he had left after the year before, but the erosion of his skills and his actions later in the season kind of made his leaving more palatable. I believe we would not be any better but would be saddled for a few years with a big salary without the skills to back it up.

    One more problem I see with the Pistons, and I suppose I am the only one to think this way, is the feeling I have had that since Sheed got the big contract, he just has not been the same player. He bellyaches and plays part-time. I am sorry but that is one of my grievances.

    I was certainly hoping for more.
  11. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Why be sorry? Sheed deserves as much if not more criticism than the others.
  12. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I have defended Flip... mostly because of the 64 W's and giving him a chance to adjust with a new team.
    What I hated was folks putting the sole blame on the coach when the players were just as guilty (man are we spoiled when 3 playoff rounds is a failure).
    However Flip is deserving of critism for lack of discipline... how many times would LB let them get away with failing to get back on transition or failing to block out?... I wanna hear someone from the bench get in someones face for repeat offenses.... I like an angry team that's pissed at the coach but will also run threw a wall for him.

    We have to be honest with ourselves also... this team is slowing down (minus Rip & Tay)... they're getting beat to spots with regularity by better athletes.... Ben probably would help but this team needs more than what Ben could provide... and LB ran his course with everyone's patience.
    OLD HAPPENS
  13. max

    max All-Star

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    After 2 straight Finals appearences in 89/90 ( which they won ) the league changed the defensive rules and the Pistons proceeded to lose to the Bulls in the East Conf Finals in 91. 1992 they lost in the 1st round. 1993 they were .500 and missed the post-season and in 1994 they finished 20-62.

    So yea I know what it feels like. They also could not wait to get rid of Chuck Daly because they were convinced that Ron Rothstein was the man.

    I hope history is not going to repeat itself but this team has to stop getting steadly less talented each year. There has been a talent drop each year since 2004.

    It does not matter if Dumars finds these steals in the draft. Last guy to make the rotation was Prince, Delf has not really made it yet, so what good is it if you draft and develope players only to lose them to rivals.

    Darth - I only asked that you give Flip a chance. Starting 3-5 against beatable teams is worth critisism. What are we going to do againt SAN, PHX, Clev,.. These 1st 8 games were all against teams that should have been beatable. Its been a disaster.
  14. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    there were brief chants of that in the stands after losing game 5 to the cavs last year :)
  15. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    I am still here, and I stand by what I said about Flip. He is a winner and will continue to be. He is not the problem and I wonder what type of psychological perceptions many of the forum members have.

    Flip is a different personality type and you want to see him express that in an open sense to yourselves. Life doesn't work that way and not all express themselves with hammer in hand. He has two alter-egos who can take that challenge and can any one doubt that between these three (all former head coaches), combined together, can't reach this group?

    They have been complacent, slow and lacking energy. This is all a pure mind set. They fired on all cylinders when playing the Lakers because it was gut-check time. The worst mistake the team made was to show they could turn it up (as broadcaster Walton mentioned) and showed, that they indeed, have what it takes to be in the finals. But, it takes a sustained effort and individual team members knowing that a couple of players will be there to pick the team up during the long haul. This is just not the placebo called chemistry, it's the real thing called respect toward each other and to the game.

    If the latter respect is there, then you behave and work to cover each other's back...it is the hidden culture of piston basketball. It is the only thing you can depend on during hard times and this might be the beginning of hard times. There is still plenty of time for a positive direction of team effort and the fan's first indication of this is not knowing who will step up for a game...because all will be capable of stepping up. This is what is missing. The schedule is not permitting the pistons to have constant show-time events, or to drag one's families and friends around to different regions of the country.

    A question...might this also be an action or statement from the players (latent to be sure) against the GM or owner?

    None of this is being lost on JD and do not think for a moment that every player is not on the table. This includes Rip and especially, Tay. Some of you might remember my comments on letting him go for some valuable position player (maybe even a go-to player). Go ahead and keep roasting the coach(s), but in the end it all comes down to the players and for me it will be an up or down vote in the great chain of being.

    Now another question...are the forum members brave enough to think strategically like a GM (wish I could say owner too)? It's a complex business and you need a huge team of talented behind the scenes people. This, unfortunately, is hidden to all of us except for a few insiders and they keep their mouth shut...as well they should. But I do wonder about this behind-the-scenes talent, especially high level advisors. If the forum venting continues to go on (and I am sure it will), then its time for this forum to start asking questions about this group.
  16. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    At what, if any, point do boos break out in the palace? Should it have been Wednesday night?
  17. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    So, pass, everyone who was here when we won is the problem, and the coach, who wasn't here when we won is not the problem? Is that what you're saying?
  18. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    I don't mean to sound harsh, but this sounds like a bunch of psycho babble to me.

    Indeed, Dumars and other "higher ups" are making mistakes. It doesn't change the fact that Flip is doing a lousy job.

    " A question...might this also be an action or statement from the players (latent to be sure) against the GM or owner?"...This statement is just ludicrous, IMO.
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I can admire that. Many people have deserted the team and will probably only return when they are winners.

    Flip is very similar to Don Nelson. If you consider Don Nelson a winner, then I would say you could make the same case for Flip.

    I can't speak for everyone but as Flip would say, "the truth cannot be controversial..."

    What would be the latent motivation?

    Tay is never on the table. You have to understand that it cost Larry Brown his job. JD is married to Tay the way that Jack McCloskey was married to Isiah. Your first successful pick as a GM forms the bedrock of your legacy.

    Rip could be on the table, but he's simply too great a value at his salary to risk trading. Dollar for dollar, he's a top 10 SG in the NBA and cannot be easily replaced.
  20. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    An arguement can be made for the players needing to be responsible for their own energy level and committment but I am baffled and demoralized by the substitution patterns and purpose.

    When teams struggle coaches tend to toss players out there to see if they can bring a different rhythm to the team. Sometimes they do it with different lineups...sometimes they will sub a player out with another one in the hopes of getting a team out of a rut. You know you're not really going to depend on this guy all the time but you see what he can do for you right now.

    What I get from our team is that if our guys don't get it done...if we keep riding them, they will come thru. Flip, Delfino, Maxiell...they're just in there either because "I have to play the bench" or we need to give tay a breather.

    You've seen it...some bench guys come in and they change the flow of the game...then well, the starters are rested so lets get back to DEEETROIT BAAAASKETBALL. Whatever that looks like these days.

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