airing of my grievances

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Griffin, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I know I'm late...

    But Griffin gets my vote for post of the year as well.

    Same players, different coach.

    Defense has been on a negative trend since Flip's arrival.

    Best defensive player the last 10 years says that Flip got away from defensive principles.

    I think this is pretty straight forward.

    Fire the coach. The coach is the source of the attitude change. It truely really is the only thing that makes sense. We were one game from winning the championship in 2005, so I don't consider that a letdown. Why would we lose intensity after a 7th game Finals loss. Sounds like an attitude transplant.

    The answer?

    Fire Flip. Reevaluate the roster. Trade for hungry motivated players while Detriot Basketball still means something.
  2. Griffin

    Griffin First Round Draft Pick

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    This sounds more like a statement of denial, frankly, than it does an argument. Saying stuff like, "He's good, he's a winner" means nothing. Tell me, please, reasons why the Pistons should continue to employ Saunders? Explain to me what value there is in Flip's basketball philosophy? Show me how it translates to the playoffs. Because I don't see it.

    If you want to blame the players then be my guest. But the increase in three-point shots, jumpshots, the decline in rebounds and so forth...these things directly reflect the coach. The players are simply doing what he tells them to do.

    You wanna know what I wanna know? I wanna know if the Piston players who played under Brown see it the same way me and a lot of other observers do? And if so, how is that bothering their energy and desire when they'd rather be playing Larry Brown-style basketball?

    Pass, I'm begging you to outline the logic behind your Saunders' support. I really really really want to hear it before I go all out in my campaign to stoke the fires of unrest within Piston Nation.

    And what does this even mean?:

    Aren't we doing this every day?
  3. jzchen

    jzchen Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Another excellent post....
  4. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    Tay cost LB his job? What do you mean?
  5. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    LB wanted to trade Tay, and that was the poison pill for the relationship.
  7. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Your answer is courteous of Bill Laimbeer(7-30-06 in General Discussion). You may embellish if you so desire...yes?

    He spent the last nine-plus years with the Minnesota Timberwolves, guiding the club to eight consecutive playoff appearances and a franchise-best 58-24 record in 2003-04 – the top record in the Western Conference. During his tenure in Minnesota, Saunders won NBA Western Conference Coach of the Month honors four times (April ’04, February ’03, January ’01, January ’00). As a head coach in the Continental Basketball Association for seven years, he was named CBA Coach of the Year in 1990 and 1992 while coaching the La Crosse Catbirds to two CBA Championships. In September 2001, Saunders guided the United States men’s basketball team to a perfect 5-0 record and gold medal at the Goodwill Games in Brisbane, Australia.

    Saunders’ time with Minnesota represented the best years in the franchise’s 16-year history and placed him as the organization’s winningest coach. He posted a winning record in six of his nine full seasons as head coach, won 50-plus games in a season four times and compiled a career record of 411-326 (.558). From 1997-2004, Saunders guided the Timberwolves to eight consecutive playoff appearances, culminating in a trip to the Western Conference Finals in 2004. During the 1997-98 season, he guided Minnesota to its first winning season in franchise history (45-37) and its first postseason victory.

    Saunders’ impressive CBA coaching resume includes seven consecutive seasons of 30 or more victories, two CBA Championships (1990, 1992), two CBA Coach of the Year honors (1990, 1992) and 23 CBA-to-NBA player promotions. He ranks third all-time in the CBA with 253 career victories during stops with the Rapid City Thrillers (1988-89), La Crosse Catbirds (1989-94) and Sioux Falls Skyforce (1994-95).

    The Cleveland, Ohio native began his successful coaching career at Golden Valley Lutheran College, where he compiled a 92-13 record, including a perfect 56-0 mark at home in four seasons. In 1981, he joined the coaching staff at this alma matter – The University of Minnesota – as an assistant and helped the Golden Gophers to the 1982 Big Ten Championship. After five seasons at Minnesota, Saunders moved to an assistant coach position at the University of Tulsa, where he worked for two seasons before heading to the pro ranks.

    Saunders, 50, was an All-America basketball player at Cuyahoga Heights High School in Cleveland. During his senior season, 1973, he was named Ohio’s Class A High School Basketball Player of the Year after averaging a state-high 32.0 points a game. He continued his basketball career at Minnesota, where he teamed with Kevin McHale and led the team to a then all-time school-best 24-3 record and started in 101 of his 103 career games.
  8. final.wrath

    final.wrath Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    to who for who?
  9. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    ummm, i think what griffin asked was "show me how it translates to playoff basketball"

    i missed your response to that in the press-kit bio below...

    (and i don't even hate flip)

  10. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    :pound: :pound: :pound:
  11. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Of course and this is what it's all about. If we all want this forum to have an impact, then it will have to have a membership that is not only talented (which I think it is), but brings a broad outlook outside of the traditional blogs hysterics you usually see bantered about and this includes many team forums. It is always a big advantage when you have traditional membership which has a solid background on team and league history. Being a newcomer, I have been quite impressed. The key is always to leave open doors accepting different approaches. Sometimes there is no substitute in having lived long enough.

    With the latter thoughts in my mind, I usually concentrate on looking for what might describe as finding accumulative reflections. This is just simple information gathering that I try and fit into a pattern, which might provide greater depth to the subject on-hand. Let me explain by giving a couple of examples:
    • Perspective is hardly every enhance by a straight-forward observation process. If you go around and take a close look at the latest automobile headlights and tail-lights you can see an interesting design pattern based around refractions/reflections. These are designs based on light reflected and then aimed or concentrated into a general pattern. A pattern that enhances and provides additional depth. The mind broadens and modifies this attentive reflection so as not to overwhelm (blinding light), while at the same time retaining this unusual imprint. This imprint is remembered and you might say the brain has gained depth and pattern recognition. Might also save a few lives.
    • Next time you see a movie in a theatre, play close attention at the night shots. Usually if the movie has a significant budget and the director of photography (DP) is an older pro, you will notice the crispness of lights and their colors. This is because the DP has hosed down the scene with a water hose. To bring out…you guessed it….reflections. The reflections bring out refractions and resulting depth makes the scene sort of pop-out at you. Again, it is never the straight and narrow which enhances.
    • Below is another example of information gathering by picking up reflections, although these might not seen as direct visuals. But nonetheless, you can start picking up patterns about perspectives that usually are hidden away from average fan understanding. There much to gather from this excellent interview with Rich Cho, who is Assistant General Manager/Associate Legal Counsel for the Seattle Supersonics. Also notice the long listing of individuals that are involved in running a professional sports team (under Front Office): http://www.nba.com/sonics/contact/front_office.html
    Supersonics.com: Can you describe what a typical day is like for you?
    Rich Cho: A typical is pretty hard to describe. It really depends on the time of the year. I am pretty busy throughout the year, but the busiest times of the year for me are in May and June prior to the NBA draft in July and August during the free agency period and in February prior to the trade deadline. On the basketball side, my responsibilities include assisting Rick Sund in player contract negotiations, drafting all player contracts, handling anything related to the salary cap and the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and working closely with our college scouts. I also deal a lot with both the NBA legal department and player agents. On the business side, I’m involved in variety of legal issues ranging from sponsorship agreements and employment contracts to immigration matters.

    Compared to other front office executives, your duties are much broader, right?
    Cho: Yes. Teams have different infrastructures within the front office. Every team is a little different. Most teams have a dedicated salary cap person, but some teams don’t. Some teams have in-house counsel, while other teams use outside counsel to draft player contracts and handle legal matters. I’m sort of a hybrid of everything.

    Do you enjoy that variety?
    Cho: Yeah, for me, my job is really interesting because it’s all basketball-related. It’s fun for me and I really enjoy coming to work every day. I like the fact that I can combine the pure basketball part with the legal and analytical side.

    Have you always been a basketball fan?
    Cho: Yeah, I’m basically a sports junkie—especially a basketball junkie (and tennis junkie too). It’s something that I would follow just as closely if I was only a fan and not involved in the front office of a team.

    How did you hook up with Wally Walker?
    Cho: I was in my first year of law school and I sent a cover letter and resume to the Sonics, and it was addressed to Wally because he was the general manager at that time. A couple of months later, I heard back from him. He called and he said he wanted to be the most technically advanced GM in the league. He said he was going to be down in L.A. for a game and to meet him at his hotel and he would interview me. He wanted me to give a sense for how I could help him meet his goal. Being a basketball junkie, I put my pseudo-GM hat on and came up with some ideas about how I could make that happen. What actually helped me was my engineering background—I have an undergraduate degree in engineering and I also worked for IBM during engineering school. With the basketball junkie part and the computer and engineering background, I came with some ideas, and luckily for me the internship after the interview.

    Were you expecting that contract to evolve into a long-term position, as it has?
    Cho: I was hoping it would, because I was an engineer at Boeing first, after I got my undergraduate degree. I spent five years at Boeing and I realized I eventually wanted to do something sports-related. I did some research, and found that a number of people involved in sports—on the team side, the agent side and the governing body side (e.g. the NBA side), had law degrees. So I quit my job a t Boeing and decided to try and pursue a career in sports law.

    Has your lack of playing experience hurt you at all?
    Cho: I don’t think so, because I really follow both college and pro basketball closely. I think to do this job well, you really have to live and breathe basketball. One of the most important parts of my job is to follow both pro and college basketball closely because the job itself involves a lot of discussion about players and strategizing about different way to improve the team—everything from which college games to scout, which free agents to sign, and looking at possible trades to improve the team. It’s important to know a player’s background, his productivity, what a player’s strengths and tendencies are, how a player’s skills would complement and fit it with players on your team, and perhaps most importantly, it’s essential to be able to accurately gauge a player’s market value around the league.

    So there’s no attitude like, “You didn’t play—you can’t understand?
    Cho: Not really. I would say the league is split as far as front office people that have played pro basketball and those who did not. There are a number of general managers that didn’t play pro basketball. With the complexities of the salary cap and the Collective Bargaining Agreement, I think there is a lot more to running a team than just having the NBA pedigree. I’ve been fortunate enough to gain a lot of experience and knowledge working for both Wally Walker and Rick Sund.

    Did your work with the salary cap evolve naturally?
    Cho: Yeah, it evolved because of my law school experience, my legal background, and my mathematical background—the cap is really numbers-oriented—and also the complexity of the cap and the Collective Bargaining Agreement required someone who could devote a lot of time to studying it. Luckily for me, it was good timing.

    That’s an obvious area where you law background helps you. How about your engineering background?
    Cho: Having an engineering degree and an analytical background has helped me a lot in both understanding and applying the salary cap and Collective Bargaining Agreement rules. In particular, the combination of law degree and engineering background has helped me become really detail-oriented in a job that often requires me to be very meticulous.

    How important do you think it is for teams to understand the cap in this day and age?
    Cho: It think it’s extremely important, because every transaction has salary cap and luxury tax implications—whether it’s resigning a player, signing an unrestricted or restricted free agent, trading players, or waiving players. Different salary cap rules apply to different types of free agents, and each type of transaction has its own salary cap rules apply to different types of free agents and each type of transaction has its own salary cap rules, restrictions, and exceptions. It’s important to know both the short-term and long-term salary cap and luxury tax impact of any type of transaction. I think understanding the salary cap rules and the Collective Bargaining Agreement is one of the most important aspects of the GM’s or Assistant GM’s job.

    What are some other teams that have stood out in terms of managing the cap?
    Cho: San Antonio has done a real good job. Detroit’s done a good job. Those are two main ones. New Orleans has done a good job too. They’ve all stayed very competitive with a fairly low payroll.

    In baseball, analytical methods, especially the use of statistics, have made significant inroads in recent years, a point driven home to the mainstream by Moneyball. Do you see a similar trend in the NBA?
    Cho: We do a lot of statistical analysis, both to evaluate players and to prepare for contract negotiations. I think the trend in the NBA is towards more technology and statistical analysis. In baseball, historically there’s been a lot more stats analysis involved. You’ve got a multitude of stats just for pitchers, righties vs. lefties, switch-hitters, on-base percentage, batting average with and without men on base, just to name a few. Basketball is not as extensive, but it’s definitely going in that direction.

    What advice do you have for someone who is an intelligent basketball fan and wants to get into management as you have?
    Cho: The main thing is to do an internship with the team. That gets your foot in the door, gives the team an indication of your abilities and your work ethic, and gives you an idea of whether or not you like the business and the type of work you’d be doing. That’s the best way to get in, an internship. After that, you just need to be persistent!

    http://www.nba.com/sonics/news/QA_with_Assistant_GM_Rich_Cho-84051-51.html

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  12. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Pass, not sure I follow everything your portraying .... but I do appreciate the concept of not falling prey to the chicken litle approach.

    It's ok to enjoy the team withourt resevations... coach has issues... flaws abound from our starters... bench is neglected or below standards... we're still a hellova lot better than most.
    This flawed team is still worth watching... damn I wish they were perfect like he 89 boys.... why can't they be what everyone expects?
  13. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I totally subscribe to this. When we had darko here and there were all these opinions ranging from he sucks to he needs a chance...you got a good feel for the overall situation as people talked about each facet of the issue.
    Same with Flip last year. He did some good things and some bad things and people brought up the defense and rebounding...others the offensive efficiency.

    For this all to work though, you need opinions. If we all had that even keel approach, this place would be boring as hell. People are displeased with this team because they are invested in it. From what I read in other forums, this is typical of a fan...what team is perfect? If we dunked on people 7 out of 10 shots we'd be complaining that we don't have an outside game.
  14. Griffin

    Griffin First Round Draft Pick

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    Merc, it feels almost dismissive to describe this thread as "chicken little," as though there's no truth in any of this.

    (What's funny is that the Pistons haven't lost since I posted this thread, which, in the short-term, doesn't add any weight to my words.)

    I hope you, and all of us are enjoying watching the games so far (been a lot of entertaining games already), but it doesn't mean I shouldn't point out some things I see going on that leave me disgruntled.

    If you're happy with Flipball then great. You should be thrilled with how things are going. I, personally, have never liked the Flipification of the Deetroit Pistons, and therefore it becomes easy for me to blame him when we lose.

    And regarding the part when you said we have one of the better teams in the league, well, maybe that's so. But it's only because there aren't any great teams in the NBA at the moment. The Pistons are a decent team in an overall mediocre league.
  15. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Basketball is just entertainment... when it becomes a negative influence then there are other venues that may be more enjoyable... Why does our team always have to be the best?... Are they not allowed in our eyes to slow down momentum...
    Is it even possible that the talent pool has finally caught up to them... Would it be a sure bet to win more if we had a coach that thought like us?... played all the younguns whenever we said they should?
    So the coach is flawed and the players lack dominance... so what... I still like my dog after she gets in the trash....
    Not saying we shouldn't complain... but some folks can't get themselves to enjoy the the game.... they bail when we win and are like sharks the first sign of a problem... it's like Oh goody I was right, see they suck!... it woud be nice to see a lil credit go their way sometimes instead of constant whining... that's more of a reflection on the poster than the team.
    Five in a row... not too shabby... think they'll lose again?
  16. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    In short, I really don't enjoy watching this team like I used to. A few weeks ago I mentioned that it was time to ditch the Deeeee-troit Basket-Ball mantra and go find those old Goin' To Work campaigns. WORK, that's what I miss. I miss Ben, but more than Ben the player I miss what he represented......HARDWORK, the blue collar toughness that is DETROIT!!!!! That was Ben, that wus our TEAM, and Ben held the team responsible for working hard. Think about it, Ben would work his BUTT off during the game, lose, and then go lift weights after leaving all he had on the court, name one player on our roster that has that mindset right now, Maybe jmax, maybe.
    I don't think we'd be better off W wise with BigBen, our decline was inevitable, like most champions, but this cake walk into the paint, getting out rebounded, no intesity, no heart squad that takes the floor every night is difficult for me to digest.
    On a another note, I'm really liking Delfino these days, I'd rather see him over Flip Jr on the court anyday of the week.
  17. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    Hey, it's a free country.:usa2:

    :nono:Just because some folks "complain" about the team doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the game or the experience of being a fan. I'd be careful of projecting what you think some folks are thinking. I think it's pretty unlikely there are many of us who religously read and contribute to this forum who are thinking that they don't want the Pistons to do well just so that they can "be right". That doesn't ring true to what I read here several times a day.

    Personally if they are going to suck, I'd rather they really suck so we can see the backside of Flip ASAP. Does that mean I don't love the Pistons? Absolutely not.I totally enjoy rooting for the Pistons and rooting for Flip to be canned. Every time I turn a Pistons game on and root for my favorite team I see him on the sideline and I look forward to the day he is no longer there.:pray: I find it to be a positive forward looking attitude. :) You want to continue to be a fan your way don't you? If I told you that you had to be more positive and quit complaining about the complainers, I daresay you'd tell me that you can be a fan anyway you like.

    This really isn't directed specifically to you merc. I really enjoy and read all your posts. I just find the absurdity of trying to control how others express their fandom amusing. Why take anyone's fun away? Especially as the only people my opinions and feelings about the Pistons matter to, if anyone at all, are the people who read this forum. I don't think if I have a more positive attitude about Flip that he will coach better, or that if I think real positive I can make Chauncey's 3s go in. The tiny little bit of input I have :typing:exists in the thoughts of other Pistons fans as they read my words. :ranger:

    And that is so cool about this community! I get to come on here and tell merc "Hey, you're not the boss of me! I'll complain until the cows come home if I want." :) LOL. And then go watch my Pistons/Bobcats recording and try to figure out whether Nazr is improving or not :noidea: , how it came to be that Chauncey gives me heart attacks every time he shoots a 3:fear:, and whether Rip should get rid of that goatee or not:nod: . My life as a fan.

    Point is, Merc, I don't agree with what you say this time, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Post on!:amen::humble:
  18. max

    max All-Star

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    I agree with Merc. We are spoiled as fans. Especially when you consider how many times the Pistons have been legit contenders in their 60 year history. Most years it was I hope they get to .500

    I posted into this when we were 3-5 and had just lost to a bad team at home. As Mercury wrote Its ok to air your displeasure at something like that. Things were not looking too good a couple of weeks ago. Since then they have won 5 straight and are right back in the hunt. And you have to appreciate how they have been winning. Winning games down the stretch. Going inside, really starting to get that inside game going. The frontcourt has finally been extended to 4 guys instead of 3. Delfino has made an impact the past 2 games.

    Lot of things to complain about 2 weeks ago but things changed. The team woke up. Its ok to be happy about it.

    Whats happening is the counter culture who thinks they are unique has become correct around here. In order to get approval you have to join in and slam the team. Yea I hate Flip, Dumars is losing it, CB is over the hill, Sheed's attitude is killing the team, ......

    I feel like the malcontent on this forum. You may as well slap on PistonFanMax and rack me. Its a crime to appreciate the team. Its alright to apprecialte the team. Who cares what you thought and wrote 2 weeks ago or over the summer. Things have changed. The team has responded and its ok to enjoy it.
  19. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    aurora is right.

    I will say this..

    I think this year will be full of mixed emotions the entire season. We are getting to know this "new team" better. They will forever be compared to the championship team or the philosophy used to build the championship team until we either settle into our new identity (contender or rebuilder) or return to the NBA Finals using our new approach. Prepare for a roller coaster. As loyal devoted Pistons fans who give our lives to reading these post daily, we've earned the right to side with whatever faction forms in the forums. It's healthy. It makes for good conversation. And it makes it fun.

    I will admit that last season's playoff collapse does leave an uneasy feeling in my stomach for the entire regular season. This is simply because I have no confidence in Flip's post season abililies. He's given me no reason to have confidence. Flip is really in a no win situation as far as the regular season is concerned. Simply because even if he coached the team to the best regular season win record in league history, it would do nothing to curve my thoughts on his employment here. His final test will come in the playoffs. The regular season is simply a series of qualifying rounds along the way. If he doesn't finish top 8 in the East, he's out.

    I agree that winning during the regular season shouldn't feel uncomfortable. But thats what you get when you hire a coach that has seemingly never felt comfortable during the post season.
  20. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    interesting discussion.

    first thing: disclosure. i probably tend toward the merc side of the continuum in terms of enjoying the good moments the team has and not thinking (or posting) too much about the negatives. 'kay, so whatever, that's just my way.

    second thing: it occurs to me that the very existence of the forum magnifies the divergence of opinion. we didn't have this forum back in 1989 or in 1995 or in 2000. but probably a lot of the most regular posters (both the optimists and the pessimists -- for lack of better labels) have been following the pistons since at least that time. and i'd guess that most of that same group has oscillated over that period between unqualified enthusiasm for the team in every minute detail and an equally unqualified disappointment. but since there was no forum the expressions of those feelings would be limited to the friends with whom they'd watch the game and their coworkers the next day. now we have a forum and so we all get to express our opinions with relative ease and with varying degrees of thoughtfulness at different moments. not only that, but -- since it is precisely a forum -- we often formulate our opinions in response to those that others have posted.

    i guess my point is two fold: on the one hand, i don't really think much has probably changed among the fan base over the past 15 or 20 years: i.e. ups and downs... it's the roller coaster of fandome. on the other hand, the existence of a place where we can easily and quickly give, listen to, and respond to many others' opinions lends itself to an exaggeration of differences and a diminishing of commonalities.

    i don't think there's anything wrong with that, particularly since the overall vibe of the forum is so wonderfully civil and open. but i do think it might be worth recalling that whatever the differences of opinion and expression of opinion at this moment in time, we all share the fact of caring about the team enough to subscribe to and participate in this forum.

    third thing, maybe folks like merc and i are in the minority at this moment. and maybe not. maybe most folks hate flip. maybe not (i don't, for example, despite my occasional frustration with him, want him to get fired). but i seriously doubt that anyone on here wants the pistons to fail. and i'm certain that nobody posting regularly here would rather be right than the fan of a winning team, whatever its style of play. if people sometimes sound like that, merc, it might be just be their way of expressing frustration and disappointment with a team that's gone away from a style they liked (and a style that, at least in the past, won). and if people aren't excited about the current wins, it may just be that they are feeling uncertain about how durable this success is and so are guarding themselves against feeling the disappointment that may come when the well runs dry. i don't work that way personally -- at least not when it comes to hoops -- and maybe you, merc, don't either. but i certainly have in other areas of my life at times, and i get how it works.

    i like the way that i am. and i want others to like that too. but as a participant in this forum, what i like the most is the feeling that the forum as a whole winds up generating a wiser, more intelligent, more informed, and more balanced view of the pistons than any single one of us could possibly produce on our own. in short, we are a team -- with the stat minded, the young enthusiasts, the cynics, the watchdogs, the all-about-the-love optimists, the silent, the vocal, the life long detroiters, the out of towners and out of country-ers, the defense lovers, the three-ball lovers, etc.. we're a team and a damn good one. and the only thing we have to do to keep being that team is to remember that we are one. that thought helps keep me from feeling to bummed out when there seems to be a rise in sentiments contrary to mine -- i just kind of take it like, okay, my teammates are being themselves and so are balancing me. and my job in here is sincerely to be me and if that contributes somethhing to the balance, sweet. if it doesn't at a given moment, well, that's okay too because i still have the enjoyment of being a pistons fan in my way.

    sorry this was so long. i was thinking through it as i was typing.

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