Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by max, Apr 14, 2009.
Walt is the solution.
Very good, we established you don't care at all. So I say give the young kids a try. Better than not trying and never finding out for sure what they can or can not do.
Or finding out when its too late when they are on other teams.
Agreed. If it doesn't work, then what did we lose?
We are losing with the vets, why not at least try losing with the youth. Either way, we are losing. Something else must be tried. And hey, we may just surprise someone and win. :D
What I do know is that with the way we are playing with the slow vets, we will achieve nothing.
None of former Pistons has shined on other teams so far. Mini-Flip has had his moments in Atlanta but he had some games in Pistons uniform too...
Darko is simple rotation player in total lottery team and Hayes sucks in sucking Nets...
It is one of several myths in this forum that in Pistons underappreciated players will shine elsewhere but empirical data tells that it is not true. Heck, Delfino lost his spot in team where SF spot is still unfilled...
Darko was in Detroit for almost half his career, yet he only scored 152 out of his 1,858 points here.
114 out of his 1,362 rebounds here.
He played 553 out of his 5,790 minutes here.
We only gave the #2 pick the equivalent of 11.5 full games to prove himself over the course of 3 years.
I think you can discount everyone but Darko on that list. Hayes, Murray, etc.. are just doing what they did before they were here and while they were here. Delfino I don't think was ever counted on as being anything more than a 6th man.
Prospects that have not bitten us are Darko, Rodney White ( 9th pick ), Mateen Cleeves ( 14th pick ). The one that has is Mehmet Okur but that was more of a choice between him or Sheed.
Well, Amir is still on the team so we will see what happens over the summer.
Team record with the following Big men in the starting lineup.
Amir: 15-9 (.625)
Sheed: 33-30 (.524)
Dyess: 12-18 (.400)
Kwame: 12-18 (.400)
Maxieel: 1-3 (.250)
Of the 9 losses with Amir in the starting rotation, 8 were against playoff teams:
@NJN, BOS, @POR, @UTA, DAL, BOS, CLE, @CHI, ATL
How is that a failed experiment?
Delfino chose to leave, and the Raps have since tried to get him back.
Exactly. And i'm pretty sure the point of a down year is to see what you have youth-wise with PT unless the FO/coach is still under the delusion that we are competing for a championship. The confidence/chemistry of this team was ripped apart a long time ago; the vets look like they are mentally done.
Becausewhat it tells us is Amir is no more crucial for DET against good teams than anyone else in the lineup. So what if Amir is in the starting lineup when we beat Washington or Scramento or any other bad team.
You would expect that if he was that important he would have been able to keep DET from losing to those playoff teams AND put up numbers to match...
Player performance has been determined for decades via statistical output without having to be wrapped in caveats such as "when in the starting lineup," "when getting x # of minutes," "when on the floor with," "If played during," or any other number of detailed conditions that must be met to measure his performance.
Shouldn't the determining factor be whether or not Amir Johnson performs BETTER than the other players at his position? I can't for the life of me understand why there has to be this mystical approach that ends in..."well, we don't know what he actually does on the court and you can't see it when he plays, but when he's on the court...we can't be beat."
We really should just be packaging these guys up in other deals to make an effort to get established or consistent players or higher draft picks so we can actually draft a big man that IS KNOWN and has a much higher likelihood of producing long term TANGIBLE results when he plays.
Well, scream 'till you're blue in the face. But, Amir will not play because M.Curry cannot afford to have the fans see what this guy can do and then risk coaching suicide by sending him back to the bench.
Amir was the only Piston who had the guts to rough up James. That should be the strategy from the start. Sheed is the only starter big enough to do this, but he has nothing left in the tank. I say start Amir and let him make his 6 fouls good ones.
I loved the horse-collaring of LeBron. You know he didn't decide to that on his own though...he was instructed to do it. It seemed forced and against his mild nature.
Kwame would seem the perfect one to take a dive into LeBron's knee with his knack for clumsiness. I think you're alot less likely to be called for a flagrant if you "sweep the leg".
Low, thanks for the debate. Because we are taking positions here I am guessing that it is making it seem like I think Amir is the best player on the team and you think he is the worst. That is what happens when you argue a position and keep presenting evidence to make your case.
I'm guessing that in reality, you probably put him at the 30th percentile while I put him at the 70th.
All of these player for or against, coach for or against, GM for or against arguments end up with extreme polarity. Unfortunately.
At the end of the day I grasp everyone's concepts. I don't feel he's the worst. I'd say your last sentence is probably accurate.
I just don't feel, from what I've seen of Amir, that he is as talented or as effective as some believe. And....no, I hate to take extremes (although they make for great sarcasm)...I never got the impression that you thought he was the best. I think it all hinges on his perceived effectiveness overall. You are right...I do think the stats are a little more important. (Even using my guy as an example) While Ben Wallace had TONS of intangible effects on our team defense, he still managed to fill up the stat sheet with blocks, rebounds, and steals...not to mention a career high scoring avg under LB. So, I don't want anyone to think I've all of a sudden lost the ability to appreciate intangibles.
I would be the 1st to come in here and tell your guys you were right if he becomes a powerhouse. I just don't have enough faith in his game at this point. I need to see something a little more convincing from him.
But, hey....this is the purpose of a fan forum...and it works!
I agree with both of you. I just don't completely agree with both of you.
I agree that Amir has upside. I agree that he brings energy, hustle to the game. I also agree that he isn't all that (yet) and might never be. He's still too small, and he's still defending with his hands.
He's a mixed bag. We're probably better when he gets 10 minutes a game, but he's not playing at a 25 MPG level yet.
But as The Low mentions, after 4 years, it's time to make a move. Either he's a steal or a reach at #56. I don't think we need to wait until he is 30 to find out.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Sheed is gone next year. How much more time does Amir get before we make a permanent decision on him?
Separate names with a comma.