Amir Johnson?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by max, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Amir has some value in trade, if you can sell someone on his upside.
     
  2. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If he hired me to be his online PR spokesman, I would issue the following release...

    1) Fixing his jump shot. In '07, he shot .000 on jump shots. In '08, he shot .190 on jump shots. In '09, he shot .433 on jump shots. Looks like progress to me.

    2) Gaining bulk- he gained 20 pounds in the 2 years after we drafted him. This caused Flip Saunders to change the organization's goal to have him play SF into their modified goal to make him into a PF. So, he basically bulked out of the position that we initially drafted him for. He has reportedly gained more weight in the last 2 years. How much weight do you really expect a 21 year old to be able to pack on?

    3) Developing a post game/ being weak around the basket- Let's compare him to our best post player... Sheed. Amir has the highest FG% on the team. He shoots .633 from in the paint and attempts 81% of his shots from there. 34% of his shot attempts are tip-ins and dunks. Sheed, the master of the post, attempts 11% of his shots from in the paint, tips-in or dunks 4% of the time, and shoots an overall .589 from the interior.

    So, think about this for a minute. Sheed has attempted 79 shots in the paint this entire season in 2,113 minutes played. Amir has attempted 129 shots in the paint this year in 889 minuntes played... and he's probably had less than a half dozen feeds from the guards.

    Conclusion, Amir's scraps > Sheed's designed plays.

    4) Gets stripped easily- On the entire season, Amir has 6 ball handling turnovers and 4 "other." Turnovers aren't his problem.

    5) He's not a smart defender- That may be true, but he is our most effective defender.

    Points allowed per game:
    AJ: 88.2
    KB: 89.4
    RW: 92.7
    WB: 92.8
    RS: 93.4
    RH: 94.1
    AM: 94.1
    TP: 94.4
    WH: 96.6
    JM: 96.8
    AA: 97.5

    Face it, one of our most effective players has been shelved. Since his benching, we haven't improved at all. We almost missed the playoffs completely. When we had a must-win game to avoid having to face the Lebrons with their unreal home record in the playoffs, we got outplayed by the Bulls, who themselves started 2 Amir-esque bigmen in Noah and Tyrus Thomas.

    Is MC a good talent scout? Is he good at developing players? Do the veterans like him? Does he get results? Does he run a tight ship? Would other teams love to poach him away from us? Not so much.
     
  3. max

    max All-Star

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    Thats the thing. Numbers do not lie and the loss ratio has been staggering during the 2nd half of the season. At one point we were what 22-12.

    If the problem is the with Amir forgetting the plays or whatever then maybe some of that is on the coach for not getting through to him. Amir never had a problem in the D-league with this. Maybe it just takes him longer to get things.
     
  4. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Like I said before, I haven't given up on Amir yet. I think if we just got an assistant coach who is capable of teaching our bigs (something we've been missing for, oh forever), he can become a solid player. Not a center, but as a SF/PF.

    However, I have to say I'm baffled by the repeated posts that portray Amir to be "the missing link", or suggest this season would've been completely different if only Amir was played consistently. I do not believe that. Amir's presence cannot transform this team out of its current mess. I think there is a consensus that a Bosh or Boozer or Stoudemire signing is not going to transform this team. Then, how can you honestly believe that Amir can?

    Stats can be deceiving. After all, when he was here, we won 100% of the games that Darko played in. We all know that means squat.
     
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That is the most easily explained correlation in history (if it were true, which it isn't) as I'm sure you know. We only played him when we had huge leads would be the answer.

    With Amir, he was a starter. He played those games when we were undermanned. CB missing. AI not missing. Sheed injured. Dyess gone. Rip hurt. Then he came off the bench. Then he was absent. We have almost every single combination to look at and see how the results change.

    Explain the misleading correlation in Amir's case. I accept the premise that stats can lie, but in those instances, it should be possible to point out why/ how they lie.
     
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    So I am not seeing things - thats good to know.
     
  7. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Trading young big men with low contracts and good attitudes is not the ideal path to the top.
     
  8. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    The losses have been staggering. And if you take away the 7 game win streak, where Amir was heavily involved in, and the 2nd half was totally disastrous.

    Someone said not playing Amir enough was not the only problem. Of course it was not. Like what happened when AI joined the team. Almost immediately, Curry took Afflalo out of the rotation. That loses games, removing your best perimeter defender from the rotation.

    Pairing Kwame and Sheed, the Dyess and Sheed, loses us games. Especially down the stretch in close games, its an absolute loser. What does the opposing team want to do in the clutch? They want to go inside for a high percentage shot. And with nobody guarding the area around the basket, it gets pretty darn easy indeed to do exactly that against us. Pairing two bigs, who between them lack the quickness to cover around the basket, is a total loser for us, causing one loss after another.

    Playing Herrmann, who lacks NBA speed. Who also lacks NBA quickness. Who also lacks NBA toughness. Who also lacks NBA ups. This is a total loser. Anyone remember back in their very dim memories, when Herrmann did not play. Once in a while, the bench would rally for us. This seldom happens with Herrmann out there. Instead, you occasinally get a good defensive stand, because Curry does try his level headed best to hide Herrmann by surrounding him with good defensive players. But at best, we just hold our own with Herrmann in. Our bench never looks all that good with him in. Of note, the other day, when we had to have the win just ensure we made the playoffs - Herrmann did not come in the game for the 2nd half. (in the Charlotte game.) Curry is fully aware that Herrmann can't contribute defensively. He is fully aware that Herrmann prevents any chance of our bench shining. Why he still plays the guy is way beyound me. And the fact Dumars signed the guy - makes me wonder two things - either Dumars is not actually in full charge of things, or Dumars has lost it. Either one is bad.

    So in sum, of course Amir not playing is not the only problem. The Pistons have myriads of problems. None of which have anything to do with lack of talent on our roster.

    Edited to add:

    Just doing some math. We were 22-12. We had the 7 game win streak.

    The rest of our record to this point, and I will assume a win tonight 17-29

    How bad has it been of late: Including the overtime loss to NY, we have been 7-12 to this point. This is significant, in that McDyess had been starting several games. Full of energy. And then started slowing down.

    We have beaten Philly, and thats all, for playoff bound teams in our last 19 games.

    The other wins: Charlotte, Clips, Toronto, Washington, Knicks, NJ.

    And one more thing. When Amir got removed from the starting unit, in favor of McDyess, McDyess was a combined minus 26 for the two games before this move, and the first game afer the move. Amir, plus 10. The move was never made based on Amir's performance. Not even in the slightest. And it totally ignored that we were losing games consistently with Dyess on the floor. (typically paired with Sheed to ensure we would lose the game.)
     
  9. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    The Darko reference was part joke TaS.

    My main point is, Amir's not the answer. Lee has explained the stats as best as possible. Amir's numbers shine because when he's on the floor, we have the young (off boards, speed)+old (def boards, know-how) big combo which results in a better play. The point is I believe Amir ended up with good stats because he was in the right place at the right time. Pair any other young athletic big with Sheed and you'll get a better result than Dice+Sheed.
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If that were true, then the old + young combo of Dyess + Amir would be a winner, which it is not. It is the only player pair with Amir that has a substantial negative... and it is the most negative on the entire team. Amir + Maxiell fared much better.

    Also, the old + young combo of Sheed + Maxiell and Dyess + Maxiell were both very bad, which further discredits that theory.

    Detroit Pistons NBA player pair tandem stats and data from 82games.com

    Young (Kwame) + young (Amir) worked great together as well.

    Amir was in the right place at the right time for the last 3 seasons. I would actually argue that he has been in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. playing in Det with coaches that don't believe in him behind vets that get all the minutes without earning them).
     
  11. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    TaS,
    I love agreeing with you because you will do the dirty work to back up the statements and stats.

    You also have to consider addition by subtraction. When Amir plays high energy minutes he causes the opponent to have to race up and down the floor with him on EVERY possession which helps wear him down. But he also reduces the minutes of the guy he replaces on our squad. When you have Dice and Sheed logging 40+ minutes every other night for multiple weeks; it will take its toll. If Amir can take 10-20 of those minutes a night, it can do nothing but help. It keeps Sheed and Dice fresher for the last 5-6 minutes of the game when it is GO time.

    Amir still has a way to go and Wart mentioned that he hasn't worked on his jumpshot or his post moves. I have 2 responses to that:

    #1. How do you know? The question should be which one of our coaching staff is teaching him the proper techniques?? He could be spending hours in the gym shooting jumpshots and doing spin moves in the post. Would that matter if he has no one there to teach him properly? No.

    #2 Do you want him shooting jumpshots?? We have a whole team of players that want to shoot jumpers. I want a guy willing to get in the post and work from there. As far as I am concerned; his lack of improvement in the post is on the coaching staff.

    He can hit a short jumper and he can score down low. He has to work his tail off on the glass to get those opportunities because they aren't going to feed him in post.

    Numbers DON'T ALWAYS lie. There are multiple benefits to him playing more minutes and our aging bigs playing less.

    One of those is more wins.:victory:
     
  12. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    i remember a time when an extremely large number of people came to the defense, vehemently, of an average player (at best).

    that player was darko.

    i've come to the conclusion that we will always have a player like this. when amir is gone, another player will appear with a big following when he hasn't earned it.
     
  13. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I do not believe this. No way. Yes, Sheed may hang around at the perimeter like a 35+ year old single does at Strip Clubs. But no way he took only 79shots in the paint this season. Not as a PF. Please tell me you're making these stats up.
     
  14. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Amir is an enigma. I see both positives and negatives with his progress and lack of.

    The analogy I will use with Amir is this; in football when the offensive line is consistently off-sides every game (see Lions), it is a coaching issue and a simple lack of discipline.

    Amir HAS NOT been afforded the opportunity for consistent, effective coaching.

    Somehwere during his 2nd and third year in the league, there was a noticeable improvement in his game, that's the way it's supposed to be, at some point the growth and progression stopped. The kid appeared to have a lot of potential.

    I am very disappointed in Michael Curry and was one of the few people here who advocated for his hiring, now I am ready to bury my head in the sand on this one.
     
  15. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Enjoy Amir tonight. This will be his last game of the season.
     
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You really think so?
     
  17. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I disagree. IMO, Joe probably still feels the same way about Amir as he always has. He isn't the "tell the coach who to play" guy.
     
  18. blackhawk

    blackhawk First Round Draft Pick

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    enjoy him for the entire 3 minutes he's going to be on the floor!
     
  19. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    If they were planning to use him in the playoffs, he would have had some real playing time over the last 3 weeks. Except blowouts, he is basically a DNP-CD every night. He should get a lot of run tonight.
     
  20. HelloIDistance

    HelloIDistance First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree. There's always one of those guys on every sports team.

    TaShawn impressive stats to back up your argument, and I'm not sure how to explain them honestly. Who was on the floor with Amir, Who was Amir playing against at this time? Etc etc I'm just not sure to be honest. I do know that Amir doesn't get off the bench and fouls like mad. I wish Curry did play Amir consistently during the season if nothing else becuase in hindsight we sucked this year. Amir is the perfect player for a team that sucks. Honestly he would do better on a team like Memphis. He could play 30+ minute and have a chance at polishing up his game.

    But for the people that are saying playing Amir would make our record X games better and all this...that's crazy. What do we have Olajuwon sitting on the bench in an Amir jersey? Amir would not win us X more games, that arguement just doesn't make since.
     

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