Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by max, Apr 14, 2009.
Here is a snippet from an interview from Blakely 2 and half years ago.
Everything else is his actual play which isn't anywhere near productive as his stats suggest.
Everything else is his limited minutes under different coaches. It's his dumb fouls. It's his inability to block out. It's his inability to run plays. Good garbage men know where to be on the plays. It's his inability to make a difference in any game. Where are the games that Amir won?
You're taking the one guy who the coach and GM have singled out as having an effect on the game greater than his actual stats and saying that his stats are inflated?
All I gotta say is that plan B ain't working. This team sort of sucks without Amir Johnson. Maybe it is a coincidence that we played well when he was on the court. But in the 75% of the time when he hasn't been on the court, we are not a playoff team and that data set is too big to be a sampling error.
So, what is happening, is that we are taking that non-playoff calibur lottery team and matching it against the best team in basketball.
Another year of sticking with the vets and having no consistency with the youth. It took 60 games to realize Bynum could play. Maxiell, Kwame, Amir, Afflalo, and Sharpe all got yanked around. The only reason Stuck played was because Joe traded the guy who should have been in that position.
You are wrong. Everything else turned out to be his actual play.
PISTONS: On-the-Job Training
Now you're attributing the Pistons lack of success soley to Amir not playing like he's Mike Jordan.
Doesn't your summary of Ty Thomas and his great +/- and no playing time in previous years along with his poor +/- and whatever other percentages along with actual playing time suggest that Amir's success is not what it seems?
Not at all. My point is that if you ignore Amir's contribution, we aren't a very good team. I'm admitting that maybe it is luck that we played well with him on the floor. So, ignoring that lucky play, we are left with a non-playoff team here.
Given that the status quo is average to poor, why not play a young player with some upside? If his biggest problems are correctable, like overaggression, using his hands too much on defense, making mental errors, etc., then giving him consistent playing time and coaching should be a solution. At least then, we would know whether or not a trade is the proper course of action. The way it stands now, we don't know if he's lucky or good.
Actually we DO know. He was GIVEN the starters job if you'll remember and he failed at it. He played poorly. He was lost. Fouled waaaaaay too often, and did not put up kind of numbers his "upside" suggests. Giving him more minutes isn't what helped or hurt us. Making the Iverson trade and having a rookie coach were the determining factors of our play this year. You could have started Amir for 82 games and given him the full 18 mpg he would have played until fouling out every night and we'd still be right where we are now.
I'm not even interested in debating his talent level at this point. As a matter of team function, it would not have made any difference. He is just not that crucial to anything this team needs to accomplish. He's just like any other of the interchangeable parts Joe Dumars has filled this roster with. You take one out, another one falls in place. For all the things people complain that Amir can do that Sheed or Dice can't do, the same is true vice versa. The problem is, the overall talent level on this roster is depleated and not because Amir doesn't play.
Points well taken but I would still hate to give up on someone who is 21yrs old even with the 4 years in the league. This was the 1st year that he really played much with the game still on the line and he has shown some potential.
Give it one more year and see what happens. If he can't beat out whoever else we sign after getting our marque PF/C or whatever then you have to start thinking about scrapping the whole project.
This is completely not true. We all know that Curry changed the line-ups as often as he changed socks, and it was easier to replace/"blame" so called unimportant players.
Our record is much better when Amir starts/plays significant minutes.
Curry cannot be used to judge Amir's success or failure since Curry doesn't know WTH he's doing.
C'mon...you know me better than to assume that I would make an argument based on Curry's judgement.
The fact is, we all were commenting on Amir's foul troubles, lack of meaningful (read tangible or visible via statistical measurement) production, and arguing with his supporters over the perceived team success because of Amir's "presence." Anytime in game chat during the year proved that to be the case.
This debate is not happening in a vacuum. This forum has been going back and forth over this for a couple years now.
If his play was without a doubt the sole (or even a major) reason for our success, Joe D would have cried bloody murder and fired Curry on the spot for sending this kid back to the bench. There would have been cries of foul play and piracy on the open seas in the local papers and forum members would have been sent to emergency rooms all over the D in waves after setting themselves ablaze with the benching of one Amir Johnson.....alas...
I hate to go against the family but I hope Amir goes and returns to beat the Carp out of us.
If this is what it takes to change the Pistons attitude towards its precious veterans.
Remember early in the season when we where winning ? We carried Amir well.
Remember when BBeen couldn't score but we played him anyway and won with him ?
Remember 2-4 years ago when Tay got worked by Paul P. and Richard J. and Bron ? But we won with him anyway.
I guess if you aren't a "made" member of the core you're nobody.
In his first 20 games this year, here were his fouls:
1, 5, 4, 4, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, 3, 2, 4, 4, 3, 5, 0, 2, 4, 2, 4. Nothing too shocking for a young energy big man. In foul trouble a few times, not in foul trouble a few times.
Then, in his next few games after that, he went on a fouling bonanza:
@ Milwaukee- 6 fouls in 35 minutes... W
Vs. Orlando- 4 fouls in 19 minutes... W
Vs. New Jersey- 4 fouls in 26 minutes... W
Vs. Sacremento- 5 fouls in 38 minutes... W
@ LA Clippers- 4 fouls in 23 minutes.... W
@ Portland- 5 fouls in 17 minutes.... L (by 1 point, holding them to 84)
@ Denver- 4 fouls in 22 minutes.... W
During this stretch, Amir was given moderate minutes, racked up his share of fouls, and our defense was spectacular. We gave up 83.7 points per game... a full 12 points less than what we gave up in the other 75 games on the season.
After this stretch of games, he fouled out in 8 minutes vs. Utah and it was sporadic minutes for Amir with a quick hook from MC after that. We never really regained that defensive form that we had early in the year.
In our last 34 games (after the Amir foul out and MC's loss of confidence in him), we have given up 98.2 points per game and have allowed our opponent to score over 100 points 15 times (44% of the time). In the first 48 games of the year, we only gave up 100 points 6 times (12.5% of the time).
A) Amir is no Ben Wallace and I'm willing to wager he NEVER will be no matter where he goes.
B) Amir is no Tayshaun Prince even though Tay has managed to manufacture his own demise as a legitimate threat on either end of the floor
C) This argument may just surpass the DHOF era.
D) This somehow assigning the entire team's defensive performance to Amir has to stop at some point. Again, I don't dislike Amir and I would love to see him play well, however, if you guys honestly think that Amir Johnson getting 30 min a night is the solution we've been looking for, there is no logical or rationl argument that I or anyone else on this forum can make that will change your mind. I'm not saying that to insult anyone or insinuate that any of you know any more or less than the rest of us, but this argument will continue until the end of time (or at least until Amir is no longer an NBA player). I'd understand this length of a discussion about Billups, Rip, Tay, Sheed, Ben, Dice, or even Iverson. But, Amir???....
At some point, you're responsible for getting on the court and making sure that coaches, GM's, or anyone else with an opinion has NO VISIBLE or ARGUABLE REASON to take you off the floor. Amir Johnson has had more training, time, and opportunity than even Darko got and he STILL hasn't managed to be undeniably one of the better players we have at ANY position. He's had 4 years with professional level training, diet, exercise, competition, and coaching and he STILL isn't dominating anyone or anything. HE MUST PROOVE HIMSELF.
Ben proved himself when he arrived in DET.
Tay proved himself when he got off the bench to replace #12
Tyrus Thomas proved himself when he played and still gets to play.
Darko didn't prove himself when he got minutes, he sulked.
Arroyo didn't prove himself when he got minutes, he dribbled.
Delfino didn't prove himself when he got minutes, he missed jump shots.
Amir hasn't proven himself after being GIVEN the starting PF position this season.
The kid does something that helps us win games. With all the statistical evidence that shows this I don't understand how it is not able to be seen by some people.
You don't have to score a bunch of points, get a lot of rebounds, block a lot of shots or make a lot of steals to help your team win. There is only one ball on the court but there are other things a player can do to help his team win ballgames.
At the end of the day, winning games is what we are after. I don't care who it is or how he does it (within the rules). If our winning percentage were better with Papa Smurf on the floor vs him not on the floor; Smurftastic; put him on the floor. I don't understand why people feel the need to have some sort of tangible evidence of what a gut does each game to help his team win.
The record shows we win more with him then without him. Plain and simple. If we had another option that gave us a higher winning percentage; then play that guy instead but right now we don't.
You were down for re-signing Ben Wallace at an astonomical level and you were down for trading Billups.
I'd prefer to wait until a player is older than college graduation age before I demand that they prove themselves beyond a shadow of a doubt to all observers.
What was Ben Wallace doing in 1995? Had he proven himself and eliminated all visable and arguable reasons to take him off the floor? He was still playing baseball and running track that year (when he was Amir's current age).
Can I guaranty that Amir Johnson is the real deal? No. I don't feel like I have seen enough to know.
Are you then saying that Amir is some sort of good luck charm?
The Pistons are the ONLY team that I can think of that will spend 4 years attempting to develope a player (a late 2nd rounder).
Keep in mind the fact that the average NBA career is 5 years.
IMO, if Amir hasn't "done it" by now, he'll never "do it".
Exactly. I don't care how old he is. He's gotten 4 years to work on his game with NBA level talent and NBA coaches. He has not done anything. He was literally handed a starting job...and he lost it. Did Tay get handed a job? No he worked for it and when he got in the game he couldn't be taken out. Same with Bynum. AI went down and Bynum stepped up and he's been in the rotation since. This argument is getting pointless though because you have the people who think he is the next coming of Ben Wallace and you have the people who think he is way overvalued and is not going to pan out. I am in the latter category. He's had so many chances. How many NBA players take 4+ years to even get in the rotation regularly?
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