1. Football Picks Survivor is done for 2014. Congrats to billlaimbeer from The Pistons Forum

Amir traded?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by The Palace Artest, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    Yes Sirrrrr!

    Seeing someone else defend Joe against the haters :stirthepot: sure is nice for a change. And you do it as good as anyone. Great posts.
     
  2. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    Re: You're mad as hell and just can't take it anymore..

    External factors don't make Joe D blameless. Many factors come into play to account for what happened the last few years, but that does not mean that he's above criticism.

    And if we're going to blame the players for the losses (which i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with), then shouldn't they get the credit as well for the six years of ECF's?

    You can credit Joe for building the team, but i don't see how you can't also look at the fact that he did essentially just that, built the team.

    I'm hoping this and next year's moves prove he really has "it" and he didn't just stumble into some dumb luck w/ Ben Wallace, etc.

    I'm actually surprised that he's getting as little criticism as he has lately since it was pretty standard the last few months/year. But i guess it's just easier to label someone a "hater" than to consider that Joe might not be as great as we thought he was.
     
  3. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Joe is as great as we thought he was.


    Now THAT was easy!!! :MusicBigGrin:
     
  4. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: You're mad as hell and just can't take it anymore..

    Yeah, one championship, two finals appearances and six straight ECFs. Joe must be the luckiest guy on the face of the planet.

    The criticism escalated with the trade of Billups and continued with the demise of Iverson. Since then it has become increasingly obvious to the broader member base that Joe's plan to accumulate cap space via the Billups trade, and related moves, was the right thing to do. My posts arguing this case early in the season were drowned out by the (mindless) criticism.

    The more interesting posts on this forum, and this is what sets it apart from your average sports forum, are the ones that present in depth analyses, and rational and sound arguments, and attempt to look at things from both sides of the fence. Whether they involve criticism or support for Joe is really beside the point. The least interesting ones are those characterised by mindless rambling.

    As for your other point, its not about how great I or you think Joe is. His record speaks for itself.
     
  5. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    Haha! You one crazy cat CJ!
     
  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's not obvious to me.

    He went out and signed Kwame Brown before last season for $4M/year for 2 years.

    He extended Jason Maxiell's contract for an above market price 4 days before the Billups trade.

    Then he then extended Rip's contract for a fairly high price through 2013 on the same day as the Billups trade. The worst part about it was that he gave Rip the bait and switch by finalizing the negotiation with Rip while hiding the pending CB trade from him... which made Rip feel tricked.

    Then, he pulls a complicated, borderline collusive maneuver, to get Dyess back after the CB trade. What is the point in that if you were just trading CB for cap space? Joe obviously though AI would help us and that we'd make a run.

    And now, Joe doesn't entertain an offer from Boston that would allow us to get out of the Rip contract + the Tay contract for a big expiring.

    To me, Joe seems to be trying to do it half way. It appears as though he thinks that we have a chance to merely retool vs. rebuild. So, he wanted to make sure that a few key pieces were secure so that he can add to them with 2 FA's this year and make another run.

    And retooling means Charlie V, Boozer, Ben Gordon, or David Lee? It just doesn't feel like a realistic strategy for greatness. Especially considering that we are sticking with Curry (which would be OK in a throw away cap clearing season).
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Re: You're mad as hell and just can't take it anymore..

    I don't know how you got "blameless" from G-man's post.

    Calling people a "hater" is poor form and it dumbs down discussion, but I didn't see G-man do that either.

    G-man's position, is close to mine, to a great many others. Everything is not black and white. And where the team is today, draft day, with half a roster, says little about where it will be in 6 months or 6 years.

    When you follow this stuff for a long time, you get to witness multiple up and down periods. There is nothing good or bad that Joe has done, that short of a nuclear holocaust, cannot be undone over time.

    We live in an era without perspective, where people run frantically from event to event in their own lives but more often, the world at large, being shocked and indignant and frustrated, when there really is no need to exist in such a fragile state.

    Being a fan is not a static experience. It's a race that never ends as long as you keep watching.
     
  8. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    But we left him off the hook?
     
  9. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    double post
     
  10. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    Read that again. 2 years. TWO years.

    No question he overpaid for Maxiell. I do not disagree.

    Rip can feel blind sighted, but hey, he got the contract he wanted and should know its a business. Surely you are not suggesting Joe should have put Rip's feeling's ahead of the interests of the franchise?

    Dyess wanted to stay in Detroit. It was a one year deal so did not affect our cap space this offseason. Are you suggesting we should have told him not to have come back? If not, what exactly is your point? As for contending with Iverson, the fact that this was not the case is beside the point. We need cap space for the offseason, and we got it. Any success with Iverson would have been a bonus. That has been my position since the trade went down. And before the trade happenned, I argued the case for why Billups needed to be dealt. Muchadoaboutnothin'.

    All speculation at this moment. But assuming there is truth to the rumor, giving up two valuable pieces in Rip and Tay, as well as Stuckey, for Rondo and the expiring contract is a lopsided deal. Stuckey is the sticking point.

    Furthermore, its a deal that is available to us anytime we want it. Better to explore the market more before pulling the trigger on what is a lopsided trade. Check the thread: I agree with Ernie that Rondo is the real deal, and that the trade interests me, but he price is unrealistic, and it iw worth exploring our deals before knee jerking that one.

    Stop stressing. I said it months ago. Many others have said it since. Even the sports writers began staying it a few months back. Cap space can be used in several ways, not just in signing a FA outright. And in today's economy, its a buyers market. Exactly what Joe is up to, and what will be acheived, is abolsutely anyone' guess right now. The opportunities are many and varied. I have mentioned some. AG has mentioned some. Even Ernie has mentioned some. :MusicBigGrin:

    That and Rome wasn't built in a day. We may have not won a PO game last season, but we remained a PO team. That's important. Why? Because it exposes the young guys to what it takes to get there, and how it differs from the regular season. It makes them hungry to taste more. Success, even modest success, breeds more success. There is no sense in becoming a perenial lottery team like some of you are suggesting. What are we, the Clippers? Sheeesh.

    (Going into Hubie Brown mode) Now, that's our baseline. To that we add pieces, continue to make the playoffs, continue to see the roster grow, and aim to be back into contention if not immediately, then in 2-3 seasons from now. Its called patience.
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    TWO years sucks when you are looking for massive cap relief after one year. Especially when it means that you have to give away a promising young big man just to squeeze out enough cap space to sign 2 mediocre FA's.

    If Joe hadn't signed KB, then we could have kept Amir. If Joe hadn't resigned Maxiell, then same thing. If Joe hadn't resigned Rip, then we could have kept our best player (Billups) and could have used Stuckey to trade.

    All I'm pointing out is that while Joe has been pursuing 2 contradictory paths. On one path, he is signing KB, resigning Maxiell, resigning Rip, bringing Dyess back, and on the other path he is trading our best player for an expiring contract, giving away Amir for cap relief, etc.

    I'd be OK with either path if he picked one and went with it.


    Please explain to me the Rip contract + the Billups trade in the same day. What strategy could have possibly called for these 2 simultaneous moves?

    I'm suggesting that he shouldn't have resigned Rip at all if he was looking for cap room.

    I'm suggesting that it was a total waste of money to bring back a vet after we abandoned all hopes for a title. If Joe truly made the Billups trade for cap space (and therefore knew that he was throwing the season away), then he wouldn't have bothered bringing Dyess back. This leads me to believe that Joe was so delusional, that he actually thought we'd be a better team without Billups and with AI in his place. This explains all the other moves that I label as contradictory to a rebuild.
     
  12. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Tay, there's a lot of logic behind your reasoning. I think Joe was trying to visit two places at the same time - hoping that Iverson could lift this team and at the same time saving cap $$$ once his contract is up. It seemed to have backfired as there was no definitive strategy in place.
     
  13. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    The criticism escalated with the trade of Billups and continued with the demise of Iverson. Since then it has become increasingly obvious to the broader member base that Joe's plan to accumulate cap space via the Billups trade, and related moves, was the right thing to do. My posts arguing this case early in the season were drowned out by the (mindless) criticism.
    [quote Worm]
    -
    Billups wasn't the problem. All the media is now saying it was the worst trade ever ! With any coaching we are back in the CFinals. Anything could've happened. Maybe Sheed doesn't sprang an ankle. Maybe Tay finds his balls. All because -happenstance- KG doesn't play.
    Joe shot us all in the foot. One more year of Core would've been nice.
    None of us like sucking but we are in full blown-out suck mode now.
    Scrambling for ROOKIES that won't play for us for 2 or more years.:cold:
     
  14. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Ok up to there, but wasn't Dyess II dirt cheap - prorated vet's minimum? Joe would have been hard pressed to pick up anybody more cheaply.
     
  15. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    I give you that. Those moves I have a hard time understanding as well.

    That's speculation. You weren't in the room. You don't know if Rip said that maintaining Billups was a condition for him to sign an extension. These are pros, not high school girls. Yeah, they're good buddies and all that. However, if Rip signed that contract based on the assumption that he'll play with Billups for years to come, then he's an idiot.
    I don't understand your reasoning here. Dice could've signed with anybody, but he decided to come back to Detroit. Why wouldn't you want him coming back? Also, Joe has always said that the AI deal had a short term and long term goal. Short term it didn't work out as we all know.
    That was a lop-sided deal and you know it. If Joe had done that deal, there would've been a good deal of "OMG Joe's an idiot" threads on this forum.
    What exactly is wrong with that approach?
    Again with the Charlie V. thing. Someone starts a rumor and it becomes fact and we start slamming Joe D. with I can't believe he traded away Billups and cleared capspace so we can sign Villanueva. If that's what he does, then we can go ahead and criticize him and discuss the specific trade. But until then, it's all wild speculation and it's simply not fair to pass judgement on Joe D.'s abilities based on rumors.

    It's all about pieces fitting together. I don't like Boozer, nor do I like Gordon. I think David Lee is a decent hustle player, but I also think that he won't be able to live up to people's expectations. But, it's all about putting the right pieces together. Look at Orlando. When they did the Rashard Lewis trade, everybody thought they were nuts. Granted, they are overpaying him, but look at the result. They won the East and put up a fight in the finals against the best team in the league this year. If someone said, You know, I can get two good small forwards and a great center, complement them with scraps and a mediocre coach. That's a recipe for success, we would all say he's smoking crack.

    I do agree whole heartedly with you about Curry though. Success requires a vision and that is something that Curry sorely lacks, or is incapable of following through with. No matter what roster Joe puts together this summer, we need to replace Curry before we can see some progress.
     
  16. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    Dumars the foiler...

    Sure LP it all started in June of 2005 when Sheed left Horry open to knock down that 3 point shot that finished the series, it was because Dumars (wearing hardwood floor camoflauge) was tugging on Sheeds jersey.

    In 2005/2006, the reason it took the Pistons 7 to finish off Cleveland before facing Miami was Dumars was paying the officials to stretch the series to add arena revenue.

    Then he persuaded big Ben to get petulant during the playoff run cause he hadn't offered a gadzillion dollar extension before March ended and that was after he pissed him off earlier (for grins) by hiring Saunders the prior summer.

    Then Dumars rolled some marbles out onto the floor during game 5 of the Cleveland series so that Sheed would severly sprain his ankle. A sprain he never recovered from during the 7 game series. A sprain that had him playing at roughly 60% through the 6 game Miami series.

    Then to get Big ben out of town, Dumars insulted him with a 48m 4 year deal, a measley 12m a year. Ben quickly pounced on the fair market Chicago offer of 60m for 4 years and (we can all see now how Bens health has held up over the last 3 years)..

    In 2006/2007 Billups started the playoff run by pulling a hamstring against Orlando. That was because Dumars ordered him to stop the pre-game stretching. He spent the rest of the play offs playing at half speed. He couldn't get his shots off. Again Dumars was flashing a mirror at him from the stands blinding him each time the ball was leaving his hands.

    The Pistons went on to take the first two from Cleveland then got spanked 4 straight. A deal Dumars made with the owner of Cleveland Rock Financial) cause they spend so much in arena advertising at the Palace.

    In 2007/2008, Dumars essentially ended the season early when he traded "gamebreaker delfino" to Toronto. Sure they went 59-23 in the regular season (against Dumars orders). Then in the playoffs against Orlando again, after taking the first two games, we get rolled in game 3 and Billups blows out his hamstring! It's like the movie groundhog day. After getting past Orlando, Detroit was up against the Celtics.

    Detroit wins the 1st, loses the 2nd, then allows the Celtics to win on our home floor (Dumars), we win game four but in game five, the word comes down through the shower pipes to Sheed (throw the game) so he goes out and plays like a dead man. But we get a rally up and running anyway until Tay kills it by turning over the ball at a critical juncture, ( a mesaage that his family was being held hostage by Dumars was delivered to Tay by Arnie during a stretching session).

    Keep in mind all those other winning teams, Spurs, Miami, Cleveland and Boston were far inferior teams coached by nitwit nimrods. No way any of them should beat us. It's just a coincidence that they all went on to win the NBA Championship..

    I see your point..
     
  17. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    No matter what Joe does it will be great and the Pistons will be in an enviable position financially going forward.
     
  18. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    IMO, KB has been a lot more productive than Amir this year. People will say that Amir had more positive impact when you analyze the game statisics using three-dimensional pivot tables. I am a simple guy. I don't get all that. I watch the games and the plays and to my simple, uneducated eyes, I'd rather have KB on this team than Amir.
    It's rather obvious really. The core was getting stale and Joe knew he needed to move things along. He viewed Stuckey as the PG, so Billups became tradeable. If he had envisioned Stuckey as a pure SG, then probably Rip would've been moved.
    Ok, I totall disagree with you on this. Winning games sells tickets. If you can add Dice for cheap, which is what happened when Denver waived him, and it helps you win a few more games, sell a few more tickets, then hell, why not? If Dice didn't come back, we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs. No playoff TV revenue, no 2 home playoff games. When I look at it that way, I think Dice coming back has turned a profit. It is harsh to call someone delusional for an action that to me looks like a decent business decision.
     
  19. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I knew JD was behind all the "in fixing".
     
  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If Joe was throwing away our season for cap relief, then signing Dyess for $1 would have been a waste of $1 (not in terms of cap, but in terms of actual dollars). If Joe thought we still had a shot at a title, then bringing Dyess back cheaply would have been a great idea. Maybe Dyess brought some fans to the palace, but our sellout streak ended, the palace was half empty anyways, and we missed out on moving up in the draft and possibly winning the lottery.

    Joe was trying to win last year. All decisions pointed toward that. Even the acquisition of AI, who he had been coveting for a while. Sure, Joe had a backup option because of the expiring, but if the primary reason for the AI pickup was relief, then all those other resignings wouldn't have happened.

    So, I guess what I'm getting around to, is that I am severly questioning his judgment at this point.

    At the start of last year, here is what Joe was thinking:
    1. Michael Curry has all of the qualities that a coach needs + he shares the same bball philosophy as I do. He will drive the team much harder than Flip Saunders and we will get over the hump.
    2. It will be great to replace the laid back Billups with a hungry hall of famer who can create his own shot.
    3. AI will be a fantastic scoring point guard and Stuckey will be the best backup in the league.
    4. Amir Johnson is so good that he needs to start right away.
    5. Sheed's still got it.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...
     

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