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An objective comparison of the current and '03/04 "cores"..

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    *Notes:

    #1) I know no one wants to hear this, but.. A. Drummond is currently ten years younger than B. Wallace was in ’04; G. Monroe is currently seven years younger than R. Wallace was in ’04; and B. Knight is currently six years younger than C. Billups was in ’04. Our current core is probably still at least five or so years away from hitting its peak. I know it sucks, but it is what it is, and that’s how I’m looking at it.

    #2) The ‘03/’04 team had, IMO, four core pieces (Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Ben), and then a number of ‘important’ additional pieces (Tay, Corliss, Memo, etc.). I’m going to be comparing these two groups under those definitions.

    #3) The statistics I’m using for comparison are from the ‘03/04 post-season and the ‘12/13 regular season (not perfect, I know, but, whatever..).


    **Core Pieces:

    B. Wallace v. A. Drummond

    …Offense: B. Wallace – 10.3ppg (45%FG, 0%3P, 43%FT), 1.9apg, 1.6tpg. A. Drummond – 7.5ppg (61%FG, 50%3P, 43%FT), 0.5apg, 0.8tpg.

    …Defense/Rebounding: B. Wallace – 14.3rpg, 2.4bpg, 1.9spg. A. Drummond – 7.3rpg, 1.6bpg, 0.9spg.

    …Other: B. Wallace – 29, 6-9, 240, UDFA, 4x DefMVP, 2x RebChamp, BlkChamp, 4x All-Star, 3x 2ndTeamNBA, 2x 3rdTeamNBA, 5x Def1stTeamNBA, Def2ndTeamNBA. A. Drummond – 19, 6-10, 270, #9 pick.

    …Thoughts: First things first, these numbers are skewed. A. Drummond is 19 years old (a full decade younger than B. Wallace in ’04), and he’s not even averaging 20 minutes/game. Offensively speaking, there’s no comparison. B. Wallace was a garbage points put-back man. A. Drummond, I fully believe, will be the league’s preeminent low post offensive force in two or three seasons. Defensively speaking, B. Wallace was perhaps the greatest low-post defender and rebounder of his era. A. Drummond, while perhaps not as dynamically as Ben, I fully believe will become the same to his. We’re off to an excellent start here. Ben Wallace’s leadership and intangibles, however, cannot be put on paper.


    R. Wallace v. G. Monroe

    …Offense: R. Wallace – 13.0ppg (41%FG, 24%3P, 77%FT), 1.6apg, 1.9tov. G. Monroe – 15.4ppg (47% FG, 0% 3P, 70% FT), 3.3apg, 3.1tpg.

    …Defense/Rebounding: R. Wallace – 7.8rpg, 2.0bpg, 0.6spg. G. Monroe – 9.2rpg, 0.6 bpg, 1.3spg

    …Other: R. Wallace – 29, 6-11, 230, #4 pick, 4x All-Star. G. Monroe -22, 6-11, 250, #7 pick, Rookie2ndTeam.

    …Thoughts: This was an interesting result, to me at least. Again, it should first be mentioned that G. Monroe is currently seven years younger than R. Wallace was in ’04. And still, the only advantage R. Wallace has over G. Monroe, statistically speaking, is blocks. Monroe scores more, and with more efficiency (though, is not an outside shooter…not that ‘Sheed should’ve been). He rebounds more. He gets more steals. And he adds a number of assists to the mix as well. Overall, offensively, this comparison is at least a wash – with an edge to the current core. Defensively, G. Monroe will probably never be quite the player ‘Sheed was. BUT…it’s not like ‘Sheed was THAT much better of an athlete? And Monroe, at least from what I can tell, seems to be the harder worker. ‘Sheed’s court sense is something you can’t teach, BUT, with hard work and continued improvement, I do believe that Monroe could close the gap enough defensively for his slightly superior offense to make up for it. Still going strong here. But again, ‘Sheed was a tremendous leader for this group in ’04, and you can’t put that on paper.


    C. Billups v. B. Knight

    …Offense: C. Billups – 16.4ppg (39% FG, 35% 3P, 89% FT), 5.9apg, 2.6tpg. B. Knight – 13.8ppg (41% FG, 38% 3P, 74% FT), 4.3 apg, 3.0tpg.

    …Defense: C. Billups – 1.3spg, 3.0rpg, 0.1bpg. B. Knight – 0.6spg, 3.6rpg, 0.1bpg.

    …Other: C. Billups – 27, 6-3, 210, #3 pick, FinalsMVP, 5x All-Star, 2ndTeamNBA, 2x 3rdTeamNBA, 2x DeF2ndTeamNBA. B. Knight – 21, 6-3, 189, #8 pick, Rookie1stTeam.

    …Thoughts: Again, I was sort of pleasantly surprised here. And again, it should be noted that B. Knight is currently six years younger than C. Billups was in ’04. Surprisingly B. Knight only averages about two and a half less points a game, one and a half less assists a game, and half a turnover more a game than Billups ~ and he actually shoots at a higher percentage from the field and deep. Six years should be more than enough seasoning to close that gap (or exceed it?), right? Statistics don’t really tell the story defensively for guards though. Chauncey was one of the best on-ball defenders in the league. Knight really, really, really needs to improve in this area. And, of course, the leadership intangibles aren’t there yet either.


    R. Hamilton v. ?

    This is the missing piece. R. Hamilton was 25 years old in ‘03/04, our leading scorer (by about six points a game), an above average defender, and a hell of a teammate. I wouldn’t dare disrespect him by comparing him to – currently 26 years old – Rodney Stuckey. This is a missing piece. I’m praying that we will somehow get a shot at drafting Blake McLemore or Shabazz Muhammad in the ’13 draft.


    **Additional Pieces:

    …I’m not going to get too in-depth here. Like I said, I’m looking out five years into the future. That’s too far out to be thinking a ton about non-core pieces imo.


    T. Prince v. K. Singler

    …Singler’s currently a year older (24) than Tay was in ’04 (23) - - but Tay was still several years away from his prime at that point, so I think we can still make the comparison. Across the board, Tay was a little better statistically in ‘03/04 than Singler’s been thus far this season, but it is close, and Singler does shoot at a significantly higher percentage. What did Tay bring to that team? He was a solid fifth man on the court. He played good defense. He chipped in occasional points. He didn’t turn the ball over. He gave us smart, efficient, responsible minutes. Can Singler do that in five years? Sure. A little differently, but the end result could be similar.


    C. Williamson v. R. Stuckey

    …People seem to forget how important Corliss was to that team. He was the NBA’s sixth man of the year. He played well defensively. He brought attitude and leadership in loads. Does Stuckey have the potential to bring points off the bench in bunches along with solid defensive effort. Of course he does. Will he work hard and reach that potential? Who knows. Will he forever be a distraction and malcontent, let’s hope not.


    M. Okur v. J. Jerebko.

    …What did Memo bring to the squad? He was a big who stretched out the court – and contributed critical points – with his outside shooting. He added some points in the interior. He didn’t kill us defensively. Jonas’ shooting hasn’t quite been what it once was…but there’s a chance he could turn it around, right? Daye and Villanueva’s absolutely atrocious defense – I believe – rules them out.


    E. Campbell, M. James, L. Hunter v. V. Kravtsov?

    …A solid big-big who could come in and slow down the likes of Shaq. A solid backup point who could maintain pace while giving Chauncey a breather. A good defensive guard who could come in and annoy. Do we have any of that on the roster right now, in long-term pieces? Not really. But these aren’t things that would be hard to add when the time comes.


    **Conclusion:

    #1) We need a Rip Hamilton-type. Really, really hoping we get a shot at Blake McLemore. Shabazz Muhammad wouldn't be bad.

    #2) Brandon Knight needs to continue his offensive progression, and really, really improve on the defensive end (perhaps add some serious muscle).

    #3) Greg Monroe needs to continue his offensive progression, and also, really work hard to become a complete defensive post-presence.

    #4) Andre Drummond ooozes with potential and just needs to continue with his all-around progression.

    #5) Important secondary pieces need to be groomed from within (Singler, Stuckey, Jerebko, etc.) or acquired (free agency / draft) over the next several seasons. Core pieces MUST be retained!!

    #6) Leadership must emerge. An attitude adjustment is absolutely necessary. As I'm sure we all remember, what made that championship team truly special couldn't be put on paper. It was the attitude and leadership of players like Ben, Chauncey, Sheed, Rip, Corliss, etc. Veterans who set this tone, and who are strong role-models for our young players must be brought in immediately. Lazy cancers who bring the exact opposite to the team - such as Charlie V - must be removed as quickly.

    #7) Coach? Not Frank.
     
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  2. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Great post. The only thing that seems to be missing is that "killer instinct". The '04 squad played with a sense of entitlement. They played with an amazing level of confidence and psychologically defeated many lesser teams in the league with their body language and demeanor even before the tipoff. All the players on the current team are very "nice". We just need one alpha dog to come in and change the culture here. Just like the transition the Celtics went through when they brought in that mad dog KG.

    IMO, the dead weight that needs to be shed before we can move on are (in order of urgency): CV, Stuckey, Daye.

    The future is indeed very exciting though.

    PS: One comment on the "additional pieces" though. The game has changed. We no longer need Shaqbusters like Campbell. We really need to shift that focus to the SF/PF spot. Today's league is ruled by the likes of Durant, James, Smith, George, Batum etc. We need more hard nosed defenders that can guard the 3/4 spots. Better JJs if you will.

    PS2: I'm going to assume that you didn't really mention the Big Nasty and Collider in the same paragraph. I'm going to assume I misread it.
     
  3. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Is Greg Monroe even better than Sheed is now?
     
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  4. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Sheed certainly wouldn't think so.
     
  5. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Not yet.....Sometimes having that three ball weapon in your arsonry can offset some deficiencies, and with Sheed knocking down at least three a game or even bringing his man out to defend it was a advantage that won that team more games than we all expected. Sheed played some D "except in game five if the 05 championship series", but when the Pistons seem to have the game in hand, he left the inside work to Ben, Memo and Corliss...
     
  6. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    On the offensive end, Sheed had the shooting touch/range of CV and the post moves/passing prowess of Moose with a little more athleticism.
    On the defensive end, Sheed had a little more skill than the sum of all current Piston players not named Drummond.

    Moose has some catching up to do.
     
  7. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    On the sheed comparison, you need to focus on his efg since he was charlie-esque in his shot selection. The stretch effect was big for that 04 team even though sheed shoot a low percentage from outside. Having a 4 shoot .330 is probably like having a guard shoot .400 in terms of overall benefit to the team.

    And usually stretch 4's are wimpy on d. Sheed was special in that way (charlie on o, ben on d). I can't give him credit for his post game since he was so reluctant to use it.
     
  8. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    His post game kept him from max contracts and superstardom..........
     
  9. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    1) Exactly - Killer instinct. As I was making the comparisons, and starting to wonder "why aren't we more similar to the '03/04 team right now?", that's the conclusion I came to. I think I just called it leadership / intangibles instead. Part of that can be grown in the current group. Put the right coach in place. Bring in the right veteran role-models. Get rid of the right cancers. But part of it may arise from bringing in a KG-like "Alpha Dog." Sheed was this for us in 04, IMO. I'm brainstorming about who such a player could be for us...

    2) Let's not glorify the past too much. I'm sure I'm not the only poster here Sheed infuriated from time to time. When he'd be out there, camped out on the three-point line, throwing up brick after brick (when he had a favorable matchup down low)...I'd about lose it. Monroe scores more points/game. Monroe misses less shots/game. Remember that fact.
     
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  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Think how clogged it would have been if Sheed didn't float around the 3 point line though. Ben needed space in the paint to use his quickness to rebound the misses and to get the garbage points.
     
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  11. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Duncan and D. Robinson seemed to manage.
     
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    The '04 Pistons starters sacrificed shots and their PPG averages so they could win. Good teams do this. The current Pistons do no such thing and kill themselves to score 16 points per game.

    Charlie G averaged what, 17 and 9 right before he signed with the Pistons and people we so excited to add those stats to the team after suffering with Sheed for so long. We then watched him play.

    Monroe's best game as a pro would not crack Sheed's top 50.
     
  13. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    This is so true.
     
  14. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The 04 team had a HOF stubborned old coach. This team just has a stubborn coach.
     
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  15. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Stopped reading when my man said, Moose and and Sheed were a wash...........oh heck no! Sheed was the most talented PF in the league, just never wanted to be, his hoop IQ, agility, length and defense was nothing short of spectacular. If Sheed had approached the game with Duncan's professionalism and humility and with KG's tenacious work ethic he would have been 1st team All-NBA on multiple occasions. Also, had teams given Chauncey the same rope for failure that we're giving Knight.....then who knows how Chauncey's career would have looked like.
     
  16. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Your sound, logical argument has no place in this optimistic thread. (I do think we overrate Sheed a little bit in hindsight though - we never had him in his prime, remember)
     
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  17. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    I don't think Frank will last to this team's fruition.
     
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  18. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Sure, on both points. But, he didn't. And, we are.
     
  19. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    Duncan and Robinson could both shoot and hit the foul line jumper and up to 15-17 footer and had to be respected by the defense for their shooting. While neither were stretch 4s like Sheed, they certainly werent restricted to the paint like Moose and Dre currently are.
     
  20. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

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    Right. Ben and a more post-oriented Sheed could have co-existed. Monroe needs to work on that mid-range shot to become more effective with Drummond. High-post / low-post combo has a great deal of potential due to Monroe's passing and work-ethic (shot improvement) IMO.
     

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