Successful QBs in the NFL are measured over a career by their number of 4th Quarter comebacks....... CV is measured by his success during garbage time.......... Which performer do you prefer.................
Of course the point value of a shot doesn't change depending on the game situation. But I still maintain that the degree of difficulty does. I concede that there are surely mitigating factors involved, but I suspect if you did a poll of current and former players, if they were speaking honestly they would say that at the end of a close game, the pressure and difficulty of scoring increases. I would be fascinated to see someone break down the stats as carefully as you describe, TaShaun...
"You hear about how many fourth quarter comebacks that a guy has and I think it means a guy screwed up in the first three quarters." Peyton Manning
Some shots are worth more than the two points they reflect on the box score. That shot that ends a 3-4 minute scoring drought. That momentum killer when the other team goes off on a run. The dagger. And yes, the game winning shot. We'll just agree to disagree.
I'm just a dumb Chump (what class that brings to this forum.... makes me wonder if its time to move on) but totally agree Walter, thats the difference between The superstar and the Star player.... MJ wanted it.... Pippen got headaches... anyways.... pretty saddened by some of the new posters and there TOTAL lack of respect for there fellow posters.... that was what made this place different.... back to the shadows for me, thanks for ruining home.
Golf: You have to be really good to put yourself in a position to win major tournaments...but if you can't play well when the pressure is on you aren't a great golfer. Ask Greg Norman. I think it's the same in basketball. Often there is a fine line between winning and losing. If a guy has a great stat line but chokes when he has to make a key free throw...and his team loses by 1...well he still had a great game if we're playing for stats, if we are playing for wins then he LeBronned it...he choked.
It was not meant to be an offensive post. Genuinely sorry. Most of the forums I am on, banter like that is not at all out of place. Obviously, this is a more tight nit place, and I will watch what I say more closely in the future. Again, I am sincerely sorry for this. I don't judge people on their opinions as a general rule, and that is no different here. I'm not here to make enemies, despite what the Forbes article on me might say...
We've basically got one rule here. Be nice. I mean, there are all sorts of fine print stuff, but it all basically boils down to "Be nice to others." You're welcome here, hopefully round comes a"round" to your apology, which was a classy move on your part. Btw, I love seeing the board moderate itself. Two thumbs up.
Thanks Panda... there is alot of banter here, all in good fun.... but everybody's views are respected.... onward and forward.... I still think James is by far the best NBA player since Jordon retired for the first 46 mins of the game.. but we'll just agree to disagree that I don't have him in my top 5 current players that I want to have the ball in there hands with 15 secs left in the game.
Your opinion certainly has some merit to it. There is no guy I'd rather see the ball in the hands during the first 46 mins of the game than Bron but there are a few I'd rather see with the ball in the end of the game (probably not as many as you because of James passing skills but CP3 is one). I think the biggest difference in opinion is how much we value the first 46 mins compared to the last 2 mins and there are alot of guys with far deeper knowledge of hoops than me that has the same opinion as you, Walt and the others.
I guess we would build different teams. I prefer decision makers (no pun intended!!!), over ball hog black holes. People I like to to see apart from Lebron in the dying moments of a game -Wade - Rose - CP3 - KLove - Durant - D Williams - Melo - Rondo - Kyrie Irving All of those players can make a decent attempt if they take the final play to a shot. The players in bold will make the pass under pressure as well. I think this sets them slightly apart from the others. Rose is a question mark for me. He is an amazing player, and has great form under pressure, but I just question some of the shots he puts up. Some of you might notice Kobe is not on this list. There are two reasons. Firstly, I don't like Kobe. Secondly, he doesn't believe in the abilities of his team mates in most last shot situations. As a result, he thinks that his multiple defender contested fade away 20 footer is a better option than the wide open shot from the elbow. I don't care that he makes some of them. For me, he is the classic case of poor decision making.
If you poll Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, Morrow, and Tony Allen, they might say that it is easier shooting when there's not a defender within 10 feet of them. Tony Allen is shooting .938 in crunch time this year. A few other things that make it really tough to measure statistically is that you have situations where the team that is up 1-3 points gets intentionally fouled repeatedly and score a ton of points in a short period of time. You also have the team that is down by 3 or more almost given 2 point FG's when the D parts and lets them drive for fear of fouling. These dynamics might even cause total scoring to go up during crunch time.
This post is making me rethink my position. Greg Norman was still a great golfer, but he clearly did have some choke in him. Phil used to be thought of that way too, but he came through enough in Majors to erase that sentiment. The free throw line is the ultimate test though to tease out the chokers. I just want to see crunch time FT% vs normal FT% in the last 5 minutes of games that weren't close for the candidates in question. If it doesn't suffer, then I don't think it is nerves. Deron Williams is the most impressive one on this list to me. He shoots a high percentage and he passes it a ton. I'm also giving him props because he doesn't have great players to pass it to, but he still finds a way to make it happen. Rondo's ast/tov ratio is brilliant, but he's about half as reliable as a Shaq FT if you want a game winner out of him. Wade is fairly anemic so far this year. Durant gets to the line a ton and shoots an OK percentage, but he's a black hole. In terms of the dominators in crunch time stats, here are some to consider: FG%: Andrew Bynum- .833 (mny other big men are at the top of this list too... 1-20 really). Redick- .571. Pierce- .545. FTA: #1 by a mile- Lebron at 22.6. The rest of the NBA then starts in the 19's with Wall, Durant, Irving, Wade, etc. FT%- all the usual suspects are at 100%- Billups, Nash, Ray Allen, Redick, etc. Rebounders- Lebron again impresses: #1: Hibbert, #2: Cousins, #3: Lebron, #4: Ibacka. (maybe Lebron doesn't get enough credit for things like this that he also does in crunch time that the guys you'd typically compare to him don't do). Assists- #1: Deron Williams, #2: Diaw, #3: Lebron. There he is again. If you go by points + 2 * assists (i.e. total points generated) in crunch time, the Lebron is #1 with 62.2 points per 48 min. Deron Williams is #2 with 60.8. When you add onto that the fact that Lebron is rebounding like the #3 center in the league when it matters, I'm nominating him as the clutchest player in the league. Also consider that he is only assisted on 10% of his own scoring during these minutes, so it really is him generating the opportunities for himself and others. Kobe? .279 shooting (.200 from deep), 71% from the FT line. 8.8 ast to 6.3 tov. Rebounds at 60% the rate as Lebron. His clutchness comes from throwing a lot of mud up against the wall and having some memorable high degree of difficulty winners.
Excellent post, TaShawn. That is a great reference. I should add that to the stat lab thread for posterity's sake.
http://www.nba.com/pistons/features/blaha_120312.html Tayshaunnnnnnnn PRINCE!!!! I'm luke warm on prince nowdays....but Blaha isn't!
I like how optimistic Blaha is. You get fired up just reading his stuff. If he stays here the entire length of his new contract, will he pass Joe D in the most games played as a Piston category?
