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At Chicago Bulls Feb. 10th, 8:30 PM

Discussion in 'February 2009' started by Dlev59, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Tonight, with Amir in the game:
    we were on a 48 minute pace to win 127 to 89.

    Without him in the game:
    we were on a 48 minute pace to lose 97 to 109.


    So, our defense was much better with him in, but our offense was even better. This is sort of the underappreciated element of his game. Setting picks, getting loose balls, and towing down offensive rebounds makes us more efficient and gives us bonus possessions. He's a good offensive enabler.
     
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    That is some of it. But Amir is also very active going toward the basket, which means he has to be addressed. He definitely draws defenders, and helps our offense. (And would help a lot more if the Pistons team would start realizing that Amir can jump pretty darn high, and actually could just get the ball to him with a high lob at the rim.)
     
  3. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    So the coaches should have called for a timeout with 16 seconds left in that play to remind Rasheed that there were 16 seconds left on the shot clock?

    You're not being serious are you? We're not talking about 13 seconds left in the game when Rahseed threw that up, we're talking about 13 seconds left on the shot clock.
    You want them to have a plan and remind players of the circumstances? They have a plan, we all know the circumstances. Late in the shot clock Abdenour starts yelling. It's been that way for decades. Everybody knows that. There's no way that boneheaded play can be laid at the coaching staffs feet.
     
  4. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Some more brilliant coaching tonight.

    I love Dice's heart and hustle. But good lord, Helen Keller can see that he can't play solid team defense with these quick guards. When he's on the floor, the opponent just pick and rolls us to death. If Dice is the guy involved, he can't get over to show, and if he's the guy who's guarding the basket, he always gets over 5 steps late. Not to mention Tyrus Thomas turned into a monster every time he stepped on the floor. Amir Johnson HAD to be on the floor in the 4th. There is no excuse anymore. This is a nice and easy 15 point win if Curry goes with Sheed/AJ in the middle of the 4th (When this thing turned).

    Amir Johnson: +13
    Antonio McDyess: -24

    UNBELIEVABLE.

    It's amazing that we NEVER ONCE went back to the Stuck/AA/Prince/AJ/Sheed lineup that was killing them defensively in the 1st quarter. Why did Rip have to start the 2nd half? Ugh!!!!

    And please don't get me started on that shot Sheed took with 15 seconds on the clock. Had he just held the ball in the fetal position we probably win the ball game with all that time having gone off the clock. BRUTAL for a veteran to make that kind of play.

    And yes, I thought the Pistons were actually playing great team-ball on both ends sans-AI until Curry rode Dice to the Losers circle. Hopefully Joe can pull the trigger on something pretty quickly so we can get back to it (along with a new coach).
     
  5. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Amir and Maxiell combined for nearly 33 minutes and managed one defensive rebound between the two of them.

    Some power forwards.

    They sure make me want to see what happens if they combine for 48 minutes while I try to convince the only real defensive rebounder we have that he is only good for Rasheeds left over minutes. [sarcasm]I'm sure seeing the logic in that.[/sarcasm]

    Despite all of these pie in the sky intangibles I keep hearing about those two are JOKES.

    Hows about this- Perimeter defense starts at the perimeter.

    I know that sounds quite innovative and new, but there it is. Those layups at the rim weren't the fault of Rasheed and McDyess, the two supposed centers that are too slow footed to intimidate like 6FOULS and THUNDERDOME do in the dreams of certain fans.
    Those layups were the fault of the guards who literally gave up on the play over and over again after they got beaten by their check.
     
  6. AI IS GOD

    AI IS GOD Second Round Draft Pick

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    First round playoff exit, Sixers are on fire. We are going to 7th spot :angry:
     
  7. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Richard didn't disappoint with two missed chippies, a silly turnover and numerous blowbys in the clutch.

    I was almost starting to believe Allen was the only guard who couldn't defend. Thanks for bringing me back to my senses Rip. :)
     
  8. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Perimeter defense is soooo '90s. Now we have this thing called hand-checking. Which is the reason why EVERY single great defensive team out there has bigs that show well on the pick and roll (See KG - Celtics, Varejao/Ben - Cavs, Ben/Sheed - circa 03-05 Pistons, Timmay - Spurs).

    The big can't be letting the guard fly right by them when our guard gets picked. And they WILL get picked. There is not a single guard on the planet that can guard the pick and roll by themselves. It's just not possible. That's exactly why it's the most popular play on the planet.

    Amir, Max, and (in stretches) Sheed show and recover on the P&R a trillion times more effectively than McDyess, who is not able to get over quickly enough to redirect the guard from having a straight shot to the basket.
     
  9. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Firstly, there were plenty of blowbys with no pick and roll to speak of. Secondly, guards can choose to go over or under pick and rolls, switch the pick and roll, or trap the ball handler, or they can do what Rip and Stuckey did on several occasions, which was none of the above. They just turned around, stood there while the play was executed, and didn't even attempt to get the defensive rebound if there was one.

    Lets not sit here and try to fool ourselves into thinking there's only one way to defend the pick and roll, okay? Laying this at McDyess' feet over and over again is about as narrow-minded as it gets.
     
  10. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I don't think he ran out to the line. If the pass hadn't been tipped he would have caught it maybe ten feet from the hoop. But it was tipped and then a little panic set in. There were sufficient bonehead plays to go around in the 4th to tie the loss to this one.

    There were so many places where this game was lost...

    - the wholesale random substitutions in the first that let Chicago get off on a major run

    - watching Sheed go 6-7 in the third and then simply be ignored by the offense most of the rest of the way. That's not Sheed not wanting to get in the post, that's callling plays that pull him away from the basket.

    - Amir confined to neverland. TaS - II don't buy that those were thinking man's attempts to take charges - they looked more like train wrecks to me, but why not let him play..

    - Prince either being on - 7-9 in the even quarters, 1-7 in the odd

    - Dyess doing his best Kwame impression - come on man, catch the ball

    - too many minutes, too many odd subs

    And then I put the final nail in the coffin just because it was getting late and I thought a nice blowout would get me in bed sooner.
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    On the play where Rip threw it out of bounds on the wrap around attempt to Dyess, that was not Dyess's fault. We were down 3 and Rip had a nice lane to the basket with obvious contact coming. What a perfect opportunity for an and1. He shouldn't have been looking to pass and Dyess was fully expecting a shot, for good reason.

    With Sheed, I still don't know what to conclude. With a player of his status, he shouldn't have to be told by a coach how to use the shot clock in an end-game situation unless there is something unusual about it. But on the other hand, coaches should always remind the players of the situation, just to make sure it doesn't slip their minds. These guys on the floor do have a lot of other things to think about after all and they aren't in the league because of their strategic acumen.

    I think a big part of it is that I've seen so many inexplicably bungled end-games this year from us, where we seemed unaware of the clock and unaware of the score, that I'm guessing the coach isn't reinforcing it or making it clear enough for the players before they go out to execute. When you combine all that with cases of Sheed staring off into space, removed from the dry erase board huddle, you have to wonder if he has just checked out to some extent.
     
  12. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    First off I am not a Maxiel fan. If we are playing an undersized team then he is effective. That was not the case last night.

    When you look at Amir you have to look at the intangibles. He had 4 OFFENSIVE rebounds in 19 minutes. That doesn't include balls he kept alive for others to get. That is at least four extra possessions.

    If you like at Dice vs. Amir you have to look at the whole picture and you have to look at it on a nightly basis. This is where Curry fails. Dice is a good rebounder but slow on defense. Some nights he is better then others. Last night was an off night for him as shown by his -24. Amir was playing well last night and was keeping TT at bay as shown by his +13.

    I don't understand if you are in the 4th quarter and you had stumbled (as Curry does) upon a group that is effective earlier in the game; why would you not go back to it when things start to fall apart?

    It just does not seem logical. The only logical explanation I can come up with is that Curry feels that Amir doesn't get any respect in the first and third quarters of the game and that he well get even less in crunch time. Thus the opponent will be drawing ticky tack fouls and marching to the free throw line. My thought would be to put him out there in crunch time and let him earn some respect from the officials. Hard to get respect from the officials if your own coach doesn't have that respect for your game.

    If you extrapolate the data and assume that AJ plays Dice's minutes; AJ gets an additional 2.5 Offensive rebounds for us. Might have been important if one of them came off of Sheeds missed 3 in the corner with 14 seconds left on the shot clock???

    I just don't understand how Curry or his assistants can't see this. If we are going to lose; I would rather lose with our young talent scratching, clawing and gaining valuable experience. It makes the loss more acceptable to me because it may pay dividends down the road. I just don't see any benefit of running Dice and Sheed for 30+ minutes each when they are both late in their careers. Seems detrimental in fact.
     
  13. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Sheed could have just screwed up.

    I'm not willing to let Dyess off so easily though. You're standing under the hoop with a man driving towards you and one defender. The defender goes for the shot as he as to. Maybe Rip has to be sure he at least gets a foul called in that situation. I can't argue with that, most guards probably would. But, Dyess has got to be ready for the pass regardless. That's not the time to look at Rip and say aw-man-why-didn't-you-shoot.

    And maybe he was looking for the pass and just screwed up and couldn't catch it. That could have happened too.

    Regardless, this is one of those games that was lost long before the end. The Pistons put themselves in a position to lose by letting Chicago back into the game.
     
  14. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Maybe the coaches do think this way. It just seems so wrong-headed though. Besides, it can't be much of a parade if Amir only has two more fouls to give as is the usual case.
     
  15. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    So you are saying that Dice handled the P & R better then anyone else on the squad last night?

    When they continually kept coming down and running that play over and over and over again you were saying to yourself, "gotcha; that is the exact play we want them to try and run because we have that figured out and have our two best defenders on it."?
     
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I agree if it is earlier in the game.

    But in this scenario, it would have been better to have Rip fouled and get a slight chance of making the basket than to have an uncontested dunk by Dyess. We were down 3 without much time left.

    Usually in this situation, the defense will concede the basket so that they don't foul. Thomas was playing right into our hands by leaving his feet with Rip driving at him.
     
  17. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    If a pass to the Sheed in the post gets tipped outside it is a lock that Sheed will put up a shot when he tracks the ball down. It has happened hundreds of times.

    It was a horrible shot that Sheed took especially when you consider it took a shot away from one of our guards. It had to have been at least 15-20 seconds since AI the 2nd (Rip) got a shot up and I think it would have been an opportune time for Stuckey to try a 720, 6 pump fake drive that the entire Bulls team + the mascot could have blocked.

    Get a young energetic big? Sheed played in the post, the Bulls were doubling him and they never gave him the ball? They got very little out of the Bulls doubles because none of their guards can shoot (dribble, pass or defend).

    I don't think a front line of Bill Russell, Hakeem and Shaq could have defended the basket last night if you told them their men were not allowed to shoot.

    Derrick Rose had 23 points, 4 assists and no turnovers on 10-15 shooting land had by far the worst game by an opposing PG in the last 3 games.

    I don't know how anyone can watch these games and not say the Piston guards are the problem. It's wudacriss as Mike Tyson would say.

    Amir might have played his best game of the year last night. He did a nice job on Thomas and should have been out there in the end. This was not the deciding factor in the game though.

    Stuckey makes Amir look like a heady, crafty player at times.

    I figure AI the 2nd and Stuckey must have taken 90% of the shots from 6 minutes to go in the 4th to the end of the game.

    The game never, ever should have some down the end like that. Mild incompetence should have been enough to get it done.
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Yes, if that is what it takes. They do whatever it is to make sure guys are in the right place, executing the right play to get a win. No, I did not absolve Sheed. But you can't give credit to the coaches, and then say it is all on the players. There has to be a middle ground here, where Michael Curry is accountable for more than rolling out of bed in the morning.

    When Sheed left Horry open, that was partly on the coaches as well. And LB took responsibility for it. Because he knew that the details, the organization, and reinforcement is HIS job.

    Look, it's not even about last night. It's about game after game we have no identity. Our lineup changes every couple days, and guys like Stuckey and Max look like they are regressing. I simply cannot imagine a team becoming this discombobulated. I don't think I have ever seen it. In Hockey, if you dont play as a team, you cant win. Same with football. Baseball needs the right mix. But basketball is the one sport, where if you load a team up with talented guys, it is incredibly hard to play this bad night in and night out. Sure Sheed, Dice and AI are still on the downside, but add in Rip and Tay, and anything from Max/Amir/AA and there is no way this team should be losing to Minnesota, Charlotte, Washington and Chicago. Not in the same season.

    Someone flashed their record a couple days ago during a broadcast, and they have a losing record against winning teams. With this lineup??

    The 02/03 and 03/04 team didnt have this much talent.

    Btw, I haven't seen Abs doing anything on the sideline this year. Maybe I am just not seeing it, but I wonder if his role has changed because he was usually closer to the court than the coach was.

    I realized it a couple days ago, perhaps later than many of you.

    Joe has failed to add any defensive rebounding capacity to this team in 5 years. Dice is the last player he has added in FA, trade or draft with any capacity to defensive rebound. And rebounds and paint play have killed us over the last 4 years.

    Granted, good rebounders do not grow on trees, but Max makes Drew Gooden look like Ben Wallace down there.

    I feel your pain brother.
     
  19. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Unfortunately, I think the odds were much greater that Rip would have gotten blocked rather than get a and 1.

    It does, however, lend credence to the theory that DET seems unaware and unprepared of what is needed as the game is ending.
     
  20. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Amir is a good rebounder but his over-anxiousness gets him in foul trouble. Has Amir fouled out of a game yet? I still think he will be a very good player in this league. When I listen to game recaps from around the leaguethey always mention that hustle guy. Varejo, I think, had 16 rebounds last night. We have that player we just need to "coach" him so he can be on the floor and effective.
     

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