Discussion in 'December 2009' started by roscoe36, Nov 3, 2009.
Ok, if you could explain why you believe the direction is heading for a ship.
The other side of the coin is that if the cap falls, the top-talent laden teams may end up doing some cutting too. If so, then the MLE could land a much better than expected player. There could be some trades even this year that would have been unthinkable in the past.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say - that next step is hard. But, I still have to wonder if we might have another championship winning / superstar lacking team in the making here?
Right now, Bynum shouldn't be playing. Maybe it is his bad wheel. His body language sucks, and his play is atrocious. Chucky is not a solution, but he's the best of our reserves at this time.
You left me hanging. Couldn't sleep.
I agree completely with your assessment which is why I said, one of our guards has to go, and I think everyone know which one I am talking about.
Didn't Boston blow a whole season playing their youth, and Paul Pierce nursed some elbow injury, then they won a title one or two year's later?
I said it in chat. I don't want to lose in the first round, and miss out on a lottery pick.
The difference between drafting 13/14 and 18~22 is big. It's drafting after 20 for so many years that has left the cupboard relatively bare of home grown talent.
Mercury is talking specifically about the cap/talent situation. We have a fiscally conservative GM, with a team just barely good enough to challenge for the 8th spot, and we're capped out. There may not be a lot of change in our circumstance unless we get some talent in the draft, or make a big trade, and right now the economics of the league do not favour us making a big trade with Tay or Rip.
I thought Knicks proved the theory that sucking intentionally to get lottery picks won't help a wee bit. I think we will be fine, if we trade one of our SGs for a PG, and hope Ben is aging younger ala Benjamin Button
So we should tank? I don't see how anyone could want to tank when we are easily a playoff team. We are 8th right now when arguably our 3 best players have been injured for long stints of time. We could easily get the fifth or so seed in the East when our other players return. I just don't think you tank when you are a playoff team. If you just start losing games to get a better draft pick you can end up dwelling at the bottom of the league for a long time. Not to mention i'm not as high on some of our young talent as others. We have Taye, Rip, and Be right now who are all past their prime. I'm probably just holding on to false hope, but no one expected us to do anything in 2004 either.
You keep saying this, and no one has proposed it. Mercury merely made an analysis of where we are.
We're a first round out. If you want to get 2 or 3 playoff wins, and draft 8 spots later, that's fine. Just be aware, that for the limited playoff success, the team will lose opportunities to get better for next year.
Well, that is not exactly true. The Pistons were coming off back to back 50 win seasons, and Joe changed coaches specifically because he expected more from the squad in 2004 than he got in 2003 (ECF loss).
That 2004 Championship didn't come from nowhere. The Pistons had to spend a couple seasons rebuilding before they could do any damage in the playoffs. This is only our first rebuilding season and we're only a quarter of the way through it.
I'm tring to draw a comparison in talent from this current squad and 2004... drawing a blank so far.
Not just the talent but the defensive excellence...disciplined mindset and unselfish qualities.
To tank or not to tank... that is the question... I don't like the idea of throwing games to gain a pick... it feels dirty.... but in the long run more losses improves the chances of a quicker recovery... not just for gaining a high pick, no guarantees (re Darko) but for the trade leverage it provides.
If Joe were to move a couple pieces that may not play into our long term future plans (Rip, Tay, Ben W) things could naturally fall in place ... Ben is keeping us from failing... good thing at his age?
As Roscoe says throw the youth into the pit and expidite the learning process... let's play these kids where they are projected to be in the future... Daye=SF.... JJ= ??.... Stuckey= Combo... Summers= SF/PF etc.
The worse thing that can happen is to redo past mistakes and not get a full evale of our young players... is Summers in or out?...
Daye?... what's up with his scrub minutes when we have all of these injuries?
In the past Joe could rely on his security blanket of proven vets... today he needs to think more like the teal era and get agressive.
If you are not suggesting we tank, then what are you saying. That is the only thing you could be indicating. If we're not tanking, then we are trying our hardest which would mean that we are going to get the best record we can, which in turn would be the worst draft pick. Not to mention how can you know how we are going to do in the playoffs. We are not going to be expected to play well, but that doesn't mean we couldn't win a playoff series.
I honestly don't get what you guys are proposing to do if you don't mean tanking. You just stated that there isn't much we can get in return for our older players like Taye and Rip, so what other way are we going to intentionally get a lottery pick.
That we're in a situation where gains can only come via tradeoffs.
Depending on what you want to gain, you will have to tradeoff something else.
We can't get better, until we get worse. Joe has really hamstrung us by paying too much for Maxiell, Hamilton and Prince. He didn't see the declining economy, like most people didn't, but the facts are the facts. The cap is shrinking, and what once looked like fair deals, now look like anchors.
No one has proposed anything. We're simply sizing up Joe's choices, shaking our heads sideways and sucking our teeth. He's got tough decisions to make, unless he wants to stay mediocre for an extended period of time.
i am ok with not making the playoffs... however i am against ripping to the core and throwing just the kids into the fire.... sorry but there is alot more to winning then playing, and we need some of our vets (if there willing) to teach the kids more then just to run play x, y, and z. The value to these young kids watching Ben's motor? unmeasurable in the boxscore if you ask me.
unless you get incredibly lucky and have a duncan type draft pick... teams don't go from good to lottory back to good anytime fast.
I am happy with everthing that has taken place since the buzzer went off to end last years playoffs.... while the injuries have helped speed up the process of learning they injured vets are still in and around to some extent...
The value of chuckie (i know don't moan) is helping us.... the value of ben.....
I see nothing good for a team when they see there owner/GM/Management say that we have written off this year.
While what you say is correct, we are way ahead of most teams going into next summer.
Next summer is going to be very interesting and telling times for the league as a whole.
Do we need a tank or not tank thread that can be revisited every 2 to 3 weeks so that when late March arrives we will know for certain what the best option should be??
Right now I don't know if this team can get out of the first round or not and we cannot even think about it until two weeks after everyone returns and we see how the chemistry works......but normally depending on whom is doing the picking, the difference between a 9 or 10 pick and 14-16 pick is substantial..
If Joe hadn't been so in love with Stucky playing the one, he could have chosen Ty Lawson who was picked 4 picks later or even at a later pick or even thought about Brandon Jennings if we had had the 9th or 10th pick.
I'm all about the tank.
Agree with Dre...There are some posts in this thread that belong in a long term thread... any chance of moving the tank discussion to the proper place?
Tell me where the discussion starts, and then I will move the related ones that follow.
4 in a row. five of six. Quality opponent beaten.
Bynum joined the list of the wounded. And no Gordon, Tay, nor Rip. Atkins missed a few minutes with a sprained ankle himself but came back in the game and ended up playing starters minutes. In all, we were never short of guards. We still played Atkins and Stuckey together a lot in this one. Can't pretend to have a shortage of guards and play your two point guards together too.
One of the recently injured, CV, totally came back to life in this one, his 3rd game back. CV was scoring toward the basket to the tune of 26 points. I believe he did hit 2 three's, maybe a couple of shorter jumpers. But a whole lot of it was him going toward the basket - or actually posting up.
Stuckey continued his hot scoring streak with about 24 I think, including a clutch basket late in this very tight finish. And most of that was to the hoop.
Bench scored 40, most of that CV of course. But Summers and Daye each nailed a triple and while they did not play major minutes, they sure made a difference. Summers looked pretty darn good in his short minutes, making you wonder why Kuester is so bent on going small so much. Not in this game though. A three guard rotation was not even possible since we only had two healthy to play. Again, we see JMAX at small forward, and looking just fine there. (You could consider CV the small forward too, or just think of CV and JMAX as a pair of forwards.)
How did Atkins do? Missed a bunch of shots, but played decent enough defense a decent amount of the time on Billups. He ain't got much to work with, but he did give effort. (yes, I know, he did get lost on defense on picks and such as usual, but he played aggressively up on Billups a lot.)(and I was going to use a more positive tone about his game, until he shot 3 or 4 seconds too early there, leaving Denver way too much time. We should have at worst missed the shot and left Denver with just 3 seconds or less to play. 6 seconds is an eternity. Good thing we made Billups miss on that last play or man I bet this good would be getting discussed for quite a spell.)
Another fine defensive effort, triggered by JMAX and Big Ben Wallace starting together. That is a lot of serious D being played between those two. Big Ben was a monster on the boards, getting what, 17 or so.
JJ did not play great, but neared another double double at least. He hit a three himself. Which means we had 3 rooks each hit a three in this game, a tight one vs. one of the best teams in the league. Hard to believe, hey?
Kwame was not completely atrocious in this one. He moved well to the basket, and finished strongly without hesitation when easy to handle passes got to him. Anything beyound kids speed of course was dropped. He did hit a free throw.
I will be out of town for a spell, writing what I see about Saturday's game late Sunday night. Til then,
I believe Lee post in the wrong game topic lol
try to tell to Ben Wallace "tanking". hah.
These kids play with fire and that's exciting to watch.
Also, owner wants to sell tickets too.
IMO now tanking is not worth of it.
Great game I thought with contributions from all over. JJ with another double double and Stuckey's play were the standouts for me. Good to see Maxiell shooting well too - hope it can continue and he can play a role similar to McDyess.
That crossover by the Stuck that left AI flat on his back was awesome!
And I can't believe anybody would even suggest tanking! In sport you play to win everytime you're on the court/pitch/field and any other actions should be condemned. I for one will never support a team that chose to do so.
In Australian Rules Football (AFL), I follow the Adelaide Crows and they are in somewhat of a rebuilding phase too, although the coach continually states that he will not use that word or look at his team that way - he considers it a cop out. With a lot of youth last season and a determination to win, they made it to the second week of the finals when no one expected them to even make the finals.
The same expectation was placed on the Pistons too, and without a recognised superstar and good team play they won a title in 2004 and maybe should have got closer to winning a couple more. If the Pistons ever starting tanking, I would be close to heartbroken.
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