At what point does a GM overrule his coach?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Kerghan, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. Kerghan

    Kerghan First Round Draft Pick

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    As an NBA coach you are generally hired to get a team more wins than it had with it's previous previous coach with the possible exception of teams that are tanking.
    Veterans players tend to bring more victories than rookie players, therefore it is generally accepted practice that the new coach is going to play the more experienced players on his new squad.
    Another reason for veteran players to play in front of rookies is to keep egos in check in the volatile NBA locker room.
    All this can be understood, however some coaches have been known to play veterans over rookies, simply for being veterans.
    Maurice Cheeks - "For sure. They get first crack. I'm a veterans' coach," Cheeks said. "Guys who've been around, they get first crack at most things but they have to get the job done."
    Pistons coach Maurice Cheeks is a firm believer that rookies should be seen, not heard.
    Now I can understand if a team is winning that you don't mess with the formula.
    I also have no major issue with a rookie earning playing time.
    I can even understand showcasing a veteran on an expiring deal for trade purposes.
    But at what point does a GM, who drafted and/or traded for players to fill specific roles demand that his coach play those respective players if they are not being used?

    1 month, 2 months, trade deadline?
    How much is a reasonable amount of time to give a coach or are you a believer that the GM should have no say whatsoever and stay away from the actual games??
  2. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    This isn't the first coach that Joe has hired that wasn't rookie lover. LB didn't believe in rooks and the Dorkster only got to play in garbage time. If Joe ever had a chance to step in and say play a rookie it would have been for Darko during the first half of the last championship season when LBJ, Melo and Wade were lighting it up for their respective teams and the guy we had leveraged the farm on for possibly the next five years was relegated HVC and getting splintered every night.

    LB didn't play him because we really didn't need him and he wasn't really that good. I think KCP will play...its been 3 games and he as appeared in 2, so lets give Mo the benefit of the doubt .....until Pope racks up 10 DNP-CD in a row......
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Dumars signed CB. He did not have to. He already had Stuckey, and he picked up Jennings in a sign and trade. Not to mention he drafted Siva. Also, the same reasons, he had no reason to get Bynum back. Now we have 5 point guards - and last game we used Billups as a shooting guard for 2 minutes, and went the other 46 minutes without a shooting guard. (running two points at a time for 46 minutes.) And of course, I am being generour, as I could call even those two minutes to be minutes with two point guards. Siince they were.

    My point? Billups and Bynum have both already turned 30, and in a few years Billups turns 40. Dumars did not bring these guys here again for our future. Most likely, though for sure I have no way to know, Dumars told his new coach what he wanted as far as Billups and Bynum getting minutes. I doubt very much Dumars is going to step in, as its his MO to ignore the development of young players. While switching coaches often to try to throw people off of where the problem is.

    Coach said that the vets have to do the job. We can only see if he means it. Please note though, that neither JJ, nor Singler, are vets who have ever actually been part of any winning teams. Vets? Singler a 2nd year player, and JJ really not much more than that when you consider that he lost a whole lot of his career so far to injury. Bynum also has been part of losing, not winning. You could say the same for Monroe and Drummond too, of course, but they are not in this discussion at the moment, since everyone knows they can play. But yet they are young people.

    So who are these vets that get first chance? Is CV going to get minutes, get his "chance" because he is a veteran? Other than Billups and Smith, we have two vets on the team at all who have known winning basketball. Jennings did make the playoffs last year, and Stuckey has been in the playoffs.

    Lets look at the rest of the roster: Datome. Rookie, but long, long a pro player. Somewhat the same for Harrellson.

    Siva, Mitchell, and Pope are rookies, all, as of last game, out of the mix. So, five rookies (near rookie in Harrellson's case) and none getting playing time.

    Vets who have seen winning before - maybe you could count CV. For sure Billups, Smith, Jennings, and Stuckey.

    Vets who have been no part of a winning season - Bynum, Singler, JJ

    Young vets: Monroe, Singler, JJ, Drummond, Jennings

    Midage vet who has seen winning: Smith.

    OK, established vets who have known at least some winning teams, by order who has seen the most winning) Billups, Smith, Jennings, Stuckey, and Monroe.

    Young vets who are for sure on the path to being established: Drummond.

    Who gets the respect, as a veteran, for getting first crack at playing time? The ones who have been part of winning systems. None of Singler, JJ, nor Bynum qualify.
  4. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    This is a weird situation, but I think it will work itself out. Bynum is used to racking up DNP-CDs every year only to BALL his way back into the rotation. I doubt Billups stays healthy. Stuckey will either get traded or self destruct like he always goes. KCP just has to stay patient, focused and hungry. On the flip side, ALL five guards have played very well in the first 3 games.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    3 games into the season and we're 2-1 (almost 3-0) and we want to fire the coach?

    9 seasons, and you guys keep surprising me with new material.
    The Panda, BallDon'tLie and linwood like this.
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    1 DNP-CD. ONE.

    This is a deep team. What some people see as too many guards, I just see a whole lot of depth.

    People are going to need to get used to guys not playing or playing very small minutes. Our top 9 players are probably all good enough to start.
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Forgetting potential, I would say our players could be ranked in this order. Not too picky. Just a general order.

    Smith
    Monroe
    Drummond
    Pope
    Jennings
    Billups
    Stuckey
    Mitchell
    Siva
    Datome
    Harrellson
    Bynum
    CV
    JJ
    Singler

    Yep, I would say our top nine could start. For purposes of the discussion at hand, 3 of our top nine players currently find themselves out of the rotation. For being rookies. And Some of our worst are getting playing time, because they are not rookies. I imagine we will be seeing CV out there soon. The quetion is, by whose wishes, Dumars, or by our new coach, will our four worst players be getting court time while 3 of our best sit.
  8. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Joe has always been hands off with his coaches. He's proven its easy to dust your hands that way and stay in a job. Highly unlikely you'll see Joe pull a Pat Riley or Kevin McHale either as he is not the coaching type, so you better get used to Cheeks' methodology and rotations for the foreseeable future.

    That said, I would very much like to see KCP get some regular minutes. His defence could really be an asset with the 2nd unit. With all the injuries we've had to our guards its gonna be at least 5 more games before things shake out properly and players/trends get better established.

    After that, Billups should settle into a 20 m/g role with the occasional night off. KCP should eat up those 20 minutes when CB is 'DNP-rest' at the very least. Not what most of us want, but that's the reality.
  9. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    KCP not playing is actually a good thing right now as the kid has clearly shown that he's good enough (on both ends of the floor) to be the starting SG; the fact that he's out of the rotation is a testament to the fact that the guys ahead of him are playing very well and that's a good thing. Right now he's a GREAT insurance policy for Bilups' 37 year old body and Stuckey's inconsistency. I have no doubt in my mind that in the very near future KCP will in fact be our starting SG.
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  10. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Speaking of KCP......In his first game, at Home VS the Wiz he played 27 minutes, scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting and was 0-3 from beyond the arc.
    In his second game, on the ROAD VS (a much more defensive minded) Memphis he played 18 Minutes, scored 13 points on 4-7 shooting and was 1-1 from arc...4-4 from the stripe. Maybe Singler should get the DNP-CD tonight against Indy.
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  11. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    We are just talking theoretical right? Generally, its after year 1. If its Joe, its after your 2nd year. I honestly would but KCP ahead of Bynum. JJ is bumming me out. He's a good player but he needs to play in a different league.
    I would definitely stick Mitchell in the D league. he has the tools to flash hints he can play but its so raw. Siva can go there too since he won't beat out the 15 PG's on the roster.

    KCP has a mature NBA game considering. I don't even think much about development as fit.
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  12. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I don't understand the anti-Singler sentiment. He's good. He makes plays. With or without the ball. Bynum is kind of like that suckerpunch you give to other teams. He should be kept out until the team struggles. then you stick the guy in to hero ball the team back to being competitive.
  13. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    I'm not Anti Singler, I just think we should find out if KCP is better in that role.
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  14. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Pope is a SG.
    As far as I can tell, we don't have another true bonified SG on the roster. Give him some run at the 2-spot.
    It's not like we're asking him to replace Kobe Bryant or something. He's a better option (better fit) than anyone else that is currently on the Pistons roster.
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  15. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Stupid NBA Politics. You have to allow Chauncey and Stuckey to lose the job first. Billups' body will give out and/or Stuckey is......well.....Stuckey, his game will give out.
  16. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    There isn't time for NBA politics. The season is only 82 games long.
    Chauncey has expressed that he wants to play PG. Let him back up Jennings.

    ...As far as playing "politics" with Rodney Stuckey, the Pistons have already been MUCH more than fair with this guy.
    I can't really think of an NBA player on ANY team who has been give more opportunities than Rodney to "win" a job.

    There is no possible argument that anyone can make for Stuckey to consume major minutes at SG over Pope.
    I've already seen enough in Pope to invest quality minutes in this kid in an effort to lock down the 2-spot for the future. He's a better defender than Rodney and a better fit for the current roster.

    A simple 3 guard rotation of Jennings & Pope starting with Chauncey backing up both positions makes the most sense to me.
    Let Teen Wolf be the #4 guy when the situation calls for it.
    Send Siva to the D-League.
    Send Stuckey somewhere for draft picks or dress him up in street clothes until his contract finally expires.
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  17. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I'm just glad we don't have to find minutes for Ben Gordon at SG.
  18. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    This is a good exercise. I think we would have the same starters:

    Drummond
    Smith
    Monroe
    Jennings
    Pope
    Billups
    Bynum
    Datome
    Singler
    Mitchell
    Siva
    JJ
    Harrellson
    CV
    Stuckey
  19. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    But he had that good game against Memphis!!!

    Apparently the answer isn't after 7 years either.
  20. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    OH HELL NAW!!!!! That's the most dumbest sensible thing I've ever heard! No way they do something that stupid logical!!!

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