Away Atlanta Hawks Wednesday Dec 26 2012

Discussion in 'December 2012' started by roscoe36, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think the tickets he got for the Magic game was provided by the Pistons.
     
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  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Great comeback, but let's keep in mind, they gave Atlanta a lead with some of the most horrendous defense I have ever seen played in the 3rd Q.

    Daye is still a horrible basketball player, he plays small, he is brutally slow, he struggles to move laterally, and he lacks any sort of direction when on the court. Sure, he grabbed some rebounds last night, some of the defensive rebounds in the 4th were uncontested, sometimes two Pistons fighting for who comes down with the ball.

    Let's not forget that the guy spots up in never never land and then someone else makes a brilliant 3 like Chaz or Will.I.Am and this contributes to his +/-

    Frank could have put a 53 year old Chuck Nevitt in there and got similar results.
     
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The defense respects his shooting ability and hangs out with him in never land. Even when they are in his grill and the game is on the line, as he's known to toss daggers. Most teams have a Daye impersonator that they use in practice to prepare to face us.

    Monroe played the entire 3rd quarter last night and Daye played 34 seconds. In the 1st and 3rd quarters, we turned the ball over repeatedly and were outscored 30 to 59. In the 2nd and 4th quarters, we turned it over 4 times and outscored them 71 to 42 (on pace to win the game 142 to 84 instead of lose 60 to 118). In the game against Washington where the Pistons held them to the lowest score by an opponent in 5 years, Daye played the entire 4th quarter, when the Wiz had exactly 10 points from the field.

    Drummond and company played the last 26 straight minutes of the game with no rest, which is kind of ridiculous.

    I would have liked to have seen an all defensive unit on the floor to defend the last play in regulation. Knight/Stuckey/Prince/Drummond/Kraktsov. If Charlie V was a shotblocker, he could have provided help defense instead of lowering his shoulder and intentionally fouling on a potential game winner.
     
  4. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    The bench played to many mins.... but, the starters failed miserably twice.... the bench got us back into it, if we had a superstar starter sitting on the bench I'd been up in arms to have him back, but the bench deserved the chance to win the game IMO.
     
  5. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    One starter could have been thrown back in there...maybe Monroe to relieve Daye and given us that extra defensive presence as well as the extra go to man, when Bynum and Stuckey were trying to do it all.. come on coach...think!!
     
  6. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Perhaps Frank was sending the starters a message.
     
  7. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    You talking about an agenda other than winning?
     
  8. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    Last night's game was a watershed moment as a Pistons' fan for me. It was exciting, crazy, frustrating, joyous, maddening, and wonderful all at the same time, and changed my perspective on a lot of things. I know, it's one game, but some strange things happened in this game that altered how I look at the game of professional basketball.

    As we all know, the Pistons' bench scored 85 points yesterday; according to the ESPN write-up, 85 bench points is the most this millennium (Boston's bench had 85 back in 1999). To be fair, I'm not sure how much of the comeback was Detroit and how much of it was Atlanta's reputation to put it in cruise control when they're way ahead, but the Pistons were a missed goaltending call away from winning by erasing a 22 point deficit in the fourth quarter by going almost purely with an offensive unit that got exhausted by the time the second overtime rolled around.

    That fourth quarter was actual basketball. I watched a team that seemed to enjoy playing their style completely manhandle a team that was playing scared. I watched a unit that was playing with a chip on their shoulder effortlessly dismantle a very good Atlanta team that had, for the first 40 minutes of the game or so, been effortlessly coasting against an outcoached and poorly constructed Pistons squad.

    Before I continue with my epiphany, a note about a couple individuals. Bynum has these types of games every so often where he just goes at it and puts up a bunch of points, but he's maddening because he's so inconsistent and makes boneheaded plays that keep them from winning. And Drummond was the same way - 12 and 16, with some offensive game, but he had that "learning experience" against Horford at the end of regulation that almost cost them the game right then and there. These guys are talented, and when they're unleashed they can do these great things, but then they screw up and the coaches reel them too far back in. Yes, Atlanta, seemed to figure him out, but that's when the coaches have to step in and, you know... actually coach. They need to point out to Will that the other team is starting to collapse, and that he needs to start watching for the kick-out. I didn't see him change his game at all, and in fact, I saw Stuckey go back into Super Collider mode almost in response to Bynum's success. (Major props to Stuckey, though, who came back into the game after what looked like a very painful injury that had him rolling on the ground in agony for several minutes. That's the kind of mental toughness I want on the team, and I hadn't seen it out of him before.)

    As for the fallout... It has to be really frustrating to Frank to watch the team play terrible defense like that and still perform better than the starters did. It has to be frustrating to preach these defensive fundamentals, watch Daye and Drummond fail to execute them, and still watch them make extraordinarily important overall contributions to the team effort. It has to be frustrating to watch Bynum play so damn well and then fail at the most inopportune times, validating what you think about him but still proving that his positives outweigh his negatives. It has to be frustrating to know that Knight and Monroe and Maxiell probably do everything that Frank wants them to do, but then go out and still get blown out in spite of it. And it's frustrating as a fan to watch all of this happen because I know that Frank is not going to change anything, because his whole coaching philosophy is based on flawed principles. He believes that he is capable of getting offensively limited players - who understand and more efficiently execute the defensive fundamentals he's trying to teach - to be a better squad than the rest of the defensively limited players - who understand and more efficiently execute offensive principles that he's not trying to teach.

    I'm not a drill sergeant as a coach or teacher. My school's philosophy is to take each kid and get them to perform at their best. We aren't bound by state standards, so we have a lot of leeway in how we approach education, and we do a better job getting students to learn than any of the other schools they'd ever come from. Frank is like one of those public schools that preach a single best approach. In the schools' defense, they don't have a choice because they're bound by state law and have a large amount of students. But Frank can change; he just chooses not to. This team is not going to win with defense, because their fundamental defensive players are not good offensively. This team is built to light it up, and now they have a guy (Drummond) that can anchor the paint and alter the equation. But I doubt Frank sees this; the truth is Frank is not an ineffective coach, he's a stubborn and narrow-minded one. He gets players to play in his system, but he's using the wrong system, and it's to the detriment of this team.

    Last night's game was the final straw that convinced me that Frank does not know how to win. It was obvious to the rest of us that he should have altered his squad for that last four seconds, but he didn't do it. It was obvious to the rest of us that he should have worked other guys into the rotation in overtime, but he didn't. It is obvious to the rest of us that Drummond is a vital piece of this puzzle going forward, is already the most talented player on the team, improves everyone else's game except Monroe's, and should be playing more minutes than he is, but Frank doesn't give him that. Frank sits on his defensive principles like they are going to make this team great, but he doesn't recognize that the improvement in defensive consistency that comes from playing guys that play in the system like Singler and Max does not offset the reduced offensive capability that comes with it.

    This is a player's league, and that's never been more evident to me than with this team. Villa Nueva is not known for his defense, but it's really not as bad as advertised and he's one of the few guys on this team that is creative enough offensively to get his own shot without ramming himself into the paint. It's clear that Frank underestimates how important that is, because he's got some sort of Napoleon complex and is fighting really hard to stay in control of the team. Games like last night are going to lose the respect of the players because they see how well the team plays when the guys on the bench go out and play their game, free of having to worry about losing their starting job. Game like last night show how important it is for players to love and care about the game. If Frank were a great coach, he would look hard at himself, his team, and admit that things have to change. He would look objectively at the information in front of him and see that if the team plays better with CV and Drummond, then you let them play their game and coach up their mistakes. If Knight can't run the point, then Jesus Christ on a Stick, stop making him play the point. If Bynum and Stuckey can get success by playing American Gladiators with the basketball, then you let them do it and teach him how to look for when that is and isn't going to work.

    You don't force players into your system, you have to adapt your system to the players. You make-do with what you got, and right now, that's a team with a bunch of defensively awkward players that can still score more than the opponent. Frank is not taking advantage of that, and that's the team's biggest problem right now.
     
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  9. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    The Chuckles G's and Daye's of the world take great comfort in being down 20 points. Those are no pressure shots.

    Daye drove for a layup at the end of either the 4th or one of the OT's and had the ball bounce over his head and roll down his back for a turnover.

    Daye has always been a pretty good defensive rebounder.

    He plays with his hands down a lot on his perimeter D.

    I actually want the Pistons to play CCG, Daye et al with Drummond and Monroe on the floor.
     
  10. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    I agree Laimbrane, its almost like Frank uses a college style system where the players must fit the scheme..any good coach takes what he has and makes it work. Daddy Rich was great at this. Even Larry Brown bent the rules of his own system to get the most out of each player. You can have the greatest system in the world...but without the right pieces? you need to tailor the system to the players
     
  11. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    So you give Daye no credit for hitting that 3 with 4 seconds to go?
     
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    If he missed it what's the worst they'd say? They were supposed to lose.
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days
     
  14. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    so the nets fired avery johnson and we still have opie huh?
    1 franchise expects nothing but results....and another expects nothing
     
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  15. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    At least we know who the next Pistons coach will be.
     
  16. del

    del Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    He's just got Happy Hands Feet
     
  17. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    This is now all about Dumars.
    If he fires his hand picked coach...he's a failure.
    If he cuts his recent contracts...he's a failure.
    Time for JD to go fishin.............
     
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't really buy into the conclusion that our bench players are mistake prone. They turn the ball over way less than our starters and they shoot at higher rates. It's not a game of perfection, so you can't just focus on a mistake here or there and say that it cost us the game. Our starters were as mistake prone as it gets last night. The ATL announcers declared that we were putting on a turnover clinic in the first quarter.

    Stuckey and Bynum have an assist to tov ratio of 2.3 to 1 and they also have the highest 2 assist rates on the team. These super colliders are more careful with the ball than our starting guards. Singler's assist rate is horrific... he's about half of what Daye and Villanueva's are and he's down in the basement with the big men like Drummond. Daye has only 4 turnovers total for the entire season, which is not very mistake prone.

    And speaking of offensive fouls, Stuckey commits 0.19 charges per game and attempts about 4 FTA's per game in limited minutes. That is a 10 to 1 ratio in terms of drawing shooting fouls compared to committing a charge. And usually a charge doesn't even give the other team FT's, it is just a loss of possession. The refs favor aggression on offense and he takes advantage of it. Bynum has only 2 offensive fouls this year and has driven to the rim between 64 and 114 times (64 if none of his assists were the result of driving and 114 if they all were). Pretty great ratio IMO.

    Offensive fouls committed this year- a sampling to put it in perspective:
    Greg Monroe- 13
    Singler- 5
    Stuckey- 5
    Knight- 4
    Bynum- 2

    So with a usage at nearly the bottom of the league, Kyle Singler has committed as many charges as Rodney Super Collider Stuckey? And he's attempted 64 fewer free throws?

    Did you see the game that Monroe was having? If he were a 19 year old rookie, his play would have been summed up as a clueless kid making rookie mistakes. In 26 minutes of playing time (way more than Drummond's average), Monroe shot 36%, had 4 rebounds, had more turnovers than assists, and no shot blocks.

    Monroe has shot less than .470 in over half his games this year. His turnovers have equaled or exceeded his assists in 2/3rds of the games. He has had 0 blocked shots in 18 out of 31 games and only 4 games with more than 1 block. And he's our best starter by a long shot.
     
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  19. copper

    copper Bench Warmer

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    nice informative posts TS
     
  20. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    The starters are not as mistake-prone on defense, and that's the point and the problem. If you watched the game, you saw Daye get blown by guys on several occasions. The same thing happened to Drummond at the end of regulation. The problem is that because the Pistons are a defense-first team, Frank focuses on these occasional miscues and misses all of the good things that these guys did to get them there. He seems to ignore the problems that Monroe, Singler, and Knight have on offense because the defense is the most important thing to him.
     

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