Ben Wallace/Chicago Bulls '06/'07

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Pwn Toney, Oct 11, 2006.

  1. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    Except Ben is hardly Koncak.

    Ben's skills are diminishing but not that badly. lol. He still has a couple good years left in him. He may not be completely worth the front end of his contract, but he can still come pretty close. I have to respectfully disagree with you bro. It's way too early in the season to write Chicago/Ben off. I still look for them to surprise. The same early assumptions were made with Miami and they went on to become champions. That team still needs time to gel before we can truely evaluate their improvement.

    Besides, the part about this move that makes it the biggest failure is not the refusal to match Ben's offer...but the inability to get anything in return for his contract. You either have to sign the guy or trade him to actually get the maximum value from this deal.
     
  2. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    Nice history lesson Cro.
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    I never said he was.

    I'm not writing anyone off. I'm presenting a historical precedent that is a possible outcome for the Ben Wallace in Chicago situation. To have a credible discussion about nuts and bolts salaries/performance, one has to think like a fantasy GM and shed any player attachments.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly. I thought it was a terrible penny pinching move for the Pistons to not look at getting anything back. Considering that the Spurs were potential buyers, I would have enjoyed fleecing them in a Herschel Walker type deal.

    I love learning the history of this stuff. I was too young to follow it as it happened.
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    Here's another thing to consider.

    Scott Skiles is obviously a very insecure individual. Wallace is supposed to bring leadership. Not represent Skiles' leadership, but to create a synergy in the Bulls locker room that takes them above their previous high water marks (this edition of the Bulls).

    Why is he trying to make a point of beating down Ben? What value will Ben have as a leader and inspiration if his teammates constantly see him brown beaten by the coach?

    Body is a stubborn SOB. It's what makes him great. Don't mess with that.
     
  5. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    Perhaps I read you incorrectly then. I perceived this as you saying that Atlanta matched the Koncac offer to prevent an average center who had strong market value at the time from going to a competitor. The result was the center remained mediocre and the money spent on the center did not allow Atlanta to build around Nique.

    If you were saying that, then my point is that the only similarity in the deal is that the Pistons would not want to allow another rival team drive the salary up of a guy they were interested in. This is generally the case as it pertains to any free agent so I don't see this as being anything historically unusual. The only difference is that we opted to be cheap.

    Had Koncak panned out to be a breakout player, the Atlanta move would not have been viewed as being unwise. This is why I think this situation is much different. The Chicago gamble on a former defensive player of the year/allstar/nba champion was viewed by most experts/coaches as being the most savy/impacting free agent move of the offseason. The Atlanta move was based on a playoff series performance and the desire to prevent the competition from obtaining potential greatness. Also, resigning Ben (if the contract was front loaded) did not prohibit us from keeping the talent around him. At least that's what I got from reading the salary cap info on the forum.

    Nevertheless, it is fun to look back at history.

    If memory servers me correct, Jon Koncak adorned the cover of Sports Illustrated as the first potential million dollar man in the NBA. Am I remembering this correctly?
     
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    Good point. Sounds like a match made in hell. Someone has to give...who will it be?
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    I don't think so. When Koncak was offered his deal, it was well after guys like Magic, Zeke, 'Nique, MJ and Bird were making 7 figures.

    It might have been Larry Bird.
     
  8. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    Interesting article from today's Chicago Tribune. My favorite part is Ben calling all of the Piston players complaining about his new $60 million job...


    [​IMG]

    Sam Smith
    Chicago Tribune news | Selfish behavior must be squashed


    With season slipping away, Bulls can't afford to let Wallace do own thing

    Published November 27, 2006


    Yes, it's a silly rule. Though I can't say I've seen many $15 million per year executives coming to work wearing headbands.

    No, NBA players are not your average working stiffs. Or even working elite. Not at about four hours per day.

    But Ben Wallace's bold act of defiance, ignoring on Saturday in New York the team's long-held rule against wearing headbands, may be a defining moment for the future of these Bulls, who seemed to offer so much promise with the free-agent signing last summer of Wallace, the reigning NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

    The Bulls at least need to fine Wallace, if not suspend him, for an egregious act that is way beyond a simple stunt of dissent or petulance.

    And I'm not overdramatizing here.

    Wallace, the second-highest-paid Bull after Michael Jordan in franchise history, essentially challenged the organization that did so much for him while he still does so little for them and, in effect, organized an insurrection against its coach. It's not a matter of slapping down a misbehaving player or trying to show who's in charge. It's a challenge to the very functioning of a team by what is supposed to be its premier player.

    And perhaps if Wallace were playing like the premier center the Bulls expected, this may not have been an issue. The first time I heard "Life is not fair" was from former President Jimmy Carter. Another great philosopher, Phil Jackson, explained the "pretty girl gets kissed."

    There are different rules for different people and we see it all the time. There were different rules for Jordan, and it gave me a good book title. There are different rules for LeBron James, Shaq and Kobe Bryant. But you better produce.

    Wallace hasn't. Actually, the Bulls have played better lately with Malik Allen.

    So Wallace, benched Friday in Philadelphia and finishing with zero rebounds the first time he started a game in his NBA career, apparently decided to show coach Scott Skiles who was really important.

    It was the essence of selfish behavior and contrary to the team ethic Wallace is said to endorse.

    Sure, you run the risk of further alienating Wallace. What then? Is he going to retire? I wondered two weeks ago watching his play whether he had.

    There's plenty of opportunity for Wallace to be the player the Bulls thought they were getting and the team to have an excellent season. Wallace always played best with a chip on his shoulder, when he felt least respected and would show everyone. What better chance than now?

    Because if the Bulls don't stand up and establish the authority of the team, this has the potential for an ugly resolution.

    This, by the way, is nothing new for Wallace.

    Just last season, he refused to enter a game late in the season because he was angry at something, usually a lack of a role in the offense. That's laughable because he shoots like an injured ostrich. I always felt the Pistons' playoff meltdown started when he openly challenged the authority of new coach Flip Saunders late in the regular season by declining to enter a game. In the playoffs, it was a virtual team rebellion.

    Before this season started, Wallace in an ESPN interview blasted Saunders and commended all his former coaches, bringing giggles to all as Wallace had previously blasted them. He's an oversensitive, easily embarrassed, remote soul. I noticed him seeming to limp during the Friday game when he was benched and he was off for some MRI Sunday. His history, despite the supposed "warrior" mentality, is to come up with some small injury when things aren't going well to explain the issue, usually poor free-throw shooting.

    Pistons players say Wallace has burned up the cell-phone satellites to them in recent weeks complaining about the Bulls, Skiles and signing in Chicago.

    My guess is the Bulls would gladly take the money and send him back.

    But they're stuck with one another and will have to make the best of it. And they can make it good.


    These things happen in pro sports. It's not like players have to like whom they play for. I don't recall many parties for Jerry Krause. And it wasn't like the Pistons were hanging out with Larry Brown. You play, be professional and enjoy the rewards.

    The one question Pistons players say they have repeatedly asked Wallace is: Didn't he know where he was going?

    It's no secret the Bulls have such rules and I recall various headband issues with Ron Artest and Jamal Crawford. It's not like Skiles has been running around squirting water from the fake flower on his lapel. It's not like the Bulls have a team of savvy veterans with championship experience.

    This is the team Wallace chose.

    That they offered about $12 million more over four years seemed to be Wallace's priority.

    Though Skiles is demanding, it appears he has made excuses for Wallace's poor play. Remember, Wallace—despite his reputation—isn't a big team guy. He never likes to take fouls early in games even when the opposition attacks, which has happened with the Bulls. The Bulls play the most aggressive post defense in the league by fronting, but Wallace doesn't like to front and the Bulls seemed to have let him get away with that. And he still talks about the offense going through him and playing in the fourth quarter when the team is trailing even though he can't make a layup.

    Some who know Wallace say he has gotten caught up in his image, the hairstyle and Big Ben thing, and Skiles is taking that away from him with the sweatband issue and other team rules. So if Ben can't be Ben, he's not going to play like Ben. That will show them! We love to make excuses for the 19-year-olds, but he's 32.

    Every organization has rules. Many are stupid. If Wallace didn't like them, he could have talked to the coach or general manager. They always seem available. He could have had his agent negotiate a clause. He could have done almost anything but what he did, which is akin to organizing a mutiny against the coach. He slapped the face of the organization that has been the best to him in his career, one that has recognized his value and taken care of his family and their families for generations to come.

    Ben, all they're asking is that you take the basketball seriously for a few hours a day. Without elastic on your head, with your music limited to headphones and with your ankles taped when you practice. (Those are a few more of the supposed draconian Bulls rules that have infuriated Wallace.)

    For the Bulls not to stand up now would be like asking Wallace to run the team. And it appears he has enough problems just trying to play for the team.
     
  9. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    Interesting article. Nice insider info about the behind the scenes insurection. Same thoughts I had about last year. I'm not saying Flip is an HOFer, but when Ben dissed him it really rocked the boat and we all saw the results. Same thing happening to the Bulls right now. I think this is why the Stones are playing so good right now -- very loose..they really seem to be enjoying themselves. Especially Tay and Sheed. No more of that super serious Big Ben antics. Now that the transition is over (that 1-3 road trip) I think the season will be very nice.
     
  10. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    skiles' little rules are completely idiotic. this isn't school camp scottie boy. he just reminds me of one of those kids who got picked on at school and now he's worked his way into a position of power, its all gone to his head.
    no music, forced taping, no headbands? i don't see any problematic players on this team, they aren't kids anymore.
    would anyone say guys like ben, nocioni, pj brown, malik allen, kirk hinrich, ben gordon, luol deng, etc need any kind of babying??
    these guys all know how to play and none of them are soft. just what is skiles trying to prove?

    it's got me dumbstruck. :confused:
     
  11. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    this guy is panicking and going completely over the top.

    he tries to bring up the past with the 'orlando incident', but he doesn't even know what it was about!
     
  12. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    So this is what bballjay's picture looks like.


    [​IMG]


    The only reason I can think of to read this article is this gem:

    Now that's funny. :pound:
     
  13. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame


    With Skiles at the helm, I don't expect Chicago to do much. It would be different if we were just talkin about player adjustment, but we are talking about a situation where your coach is causing uneccessary chaos.

    Ben didn't care for Flip due to his play calling, Skiles is attacking Ben's personal choices to wear a headband, listen to music.

    I don't know Motown, I think this time may implode before it explode. I guess the question may be, will Paxson replace Skiles if his 60 million dollar man complains and protests about his coach.
     
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    lol. i was thinking this guy is my alter ego or something. i could have wrote this article. he must read this forum. or maybe just maybe there are some people in the world that see things the way i do about ben. ben was sheltered from this in the detroit press because he has a track record with detroit and the org. i wonder how ben's ego will handle the whole city turning on him.
     
  15. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    I don't think we want BBeen this angry when we play him.
     
  16. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    how does he get this inside scoop. I want to know how often players call each other and what they talk about
     
  17. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    The first time some sweat burns his eyes he should walk[mid game] over and ask Skiles for a towel. What they can't sell Bulls logo headbands?
     
  18. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Re: Ben getting ripped in Chicago

    ben doesn't play when he's angry. he either refuses to go into the game or he breaks a team rule so the coach can take him out of the game. ben angry is a good thing because he'll refuse to rebound or score to prove a point to his coach that he is bigger than the team.
     
  19. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    you could blame it on skiles if ben has had happy relationships with his other coaches.

    ben broke team rules simple as that. ben is breaking rules and not producing on the court. skiles is doing his job. ben needs to do his. the rule isn't against music at all it's against playing it over the speakers. he can put on headphones if he likes. ben shouldn't have signed that contract if he didn't like the rules.
     
  20. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Re: A Disgruntled Ben Wallace/What a Shame

    I thought they forbid using headbands?
     

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