Ben Wallace upset

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Buckeyes#1, May 27, 2009.

  1. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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  2. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Maybe he's been hanging out with Sideshow Bob too much.
  3. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    Kind of sad to see ol Ben's career winding down. He's not even averaging 15 minutes a game right now.
  4. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Fell off quick didn't he? I don't think Joe gets as much credit as he's due for not resigning Ben. Don't get me wrong I love Ben Wallace and what he did for our team but for that money.......with declining skills? No thanks.

    Well done, Joe!
  5. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Disagree.

    Apples and Oranges. You're making the assumption that Ben's productions and/or PT would be the same no matter where he was. That's clearly not likely. Every single season players switch teams and maybe 10% (if you're lucky) of those players see no ill affects on their production and even a smaller percentage see an increase in their production. In addition to that, there's overall team talent, team chemistry, how well or poorly the team is coached, and the overall effectiveness of that particular team's medical staff.

    Besides, Ben would have come off the books this year anyway...the same year that everyone is betting on getting a huge free agent signing in two years. :pound: (that one still kills me). So, either way you look at it, having Ben wouldn't have made us any worse and this team STILL managed to fail miserably while casting Ben aside...so, how you can pat Joe on the back for a job well failed is beyond me.
  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't understand exactly what Ben's problem is. Does he have a lingering injury that is affecting him right now (the broken leg)? Or is it just an energy drop off with age?
  7. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    My guess is it's mostly the broken leg. That was late in the season, I don't think there's any way he could be back to normal this fast.
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    He did a couple nice things yesterday. He doesn't match up very well with Orlando though. He can't do much against Dwight on the boards and his only other option is to guard 3-point shooters.
  9. Blue

    Blue First Round Draft Pick

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    In my opinion, the Cavs have never really integrated Ben that well into their system anyway. He had some success with the Bulls, but he's really quite an afterthought in Cleveland.
  10. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    Are you saying that in Cleveland, he is becoming a Has Ben?
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    You would think that it is an easy system to incorporate him too. Lebron takes the offensive load and needs offensive rebounders to give him extra possessions and they are a strong defensive team. I can't think of a better team for him.

    On the other hand, how good would Rasheed Wallace be on Orlando? I would go after him if I were them. If they are going to spread the floor for Dwight, they may as well do it with a guy who can guard PF's.
  12. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    So you wouldn't say Ben's production had started going down hill before he bolted for Chicago. You MUST be blind.

    • Rebounds per has declined at a steady pace for the last 7 years.
    • Points per for the last 5.
    • Blocks per for the last 8 (with the exception of last year's 1.7 being 0.1 higher than the previous year)
    Those are Ben's only significant stat categories (with the exception of steals which has remained fairly steady) and they've dropped like a brick the last 5-7 years. Look it up. I don't buy your claim that it was the way he did or didn't fit in with his new surroundings that caused this. Ben's a stopper and ANY team he plays for is going to use him in that capacity. And your claim that it's the overall team talent and chemistry could go both ways......maybe Ben was more dominant with Detroit because the teams were better, maybe it wasn't him.

    Either way, you're obviously biased as you jumped all over my post saying Joe made the right decision. It seems you feel Ben has been well worth the money he's [strike]earned[/strike] been paid over the last 4 seasons. I never said our team was better off. I implied that Joe made the realization that Ben wasn't going to be worth the money he was asking for. Not a popular decision back then but it worked out ok in my eyes.

    NBA.com : Ben Wallace Career Stats Page
  13. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Of course I'm biased, I don't share your opinion. I would say that's as close to being biased as one can get.

    You clearly missed the point I was making in that, I don't feel the current results with Wallace would have played out exactly the same had he remained in DET and, let's say, Flip had not. The fact that it didn't play out that way is exactly why I said what I said. It is by definition a hypothetical assessment as we don't actually have the reality of Ben having stayed in DET as a test against what happened with him leaving DET.

    My secondary point was that DET would have not been in any WORSE position had Ben Wallace been kept around and his salary would still have come off the books this year and we'd still be in the hunt for a FA two years from now.

    The point is I would rather have found out how we would have faired WITH him than WITHOUT him and the shortcomings of this team over the last 4 years have been precisely what Ben brought to the table. You are more than welcome to believe that all players produce at the same rate regardless of teammates, coaching, or any of the other factors that affect how a player performs. When he left DET, there weren't many other teams with the collection of talent that we had here. You would be insane to think his performace would be exactly the same without an equivalent of surrounding talent to pick up in other areas.

    Nevermind the fact that there was no money "asked for." Detroit simply decided what they were going to pay. CHI decided what they were going to pay. Both made offers. Ben Wallace left Detroit because he didn't want to play for Flip Saunders plain and simple and since Ben was resigning and Flip just had his 1st year of a 4 year deal, Ben could forseeably have to play at least 3 years of a 4 year deal under the guy and chose not to do it. Who could blame him?

    So, sue me for thinking the successful formula was the one we should have stuck with for a little while. Again, Joe managed to Jedi Mind Trick himself into thinking he made a great move all the while watching it fail (See Nazr) and telling the media and the fans that the reasons lie elsewhere (and tried the same thing with the Billups trade).
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    7 straight years of rebounding declines is a pretty clear pattern.

    Almost 8 straight years of blocked shots declining (with the exception being that they went up by 0.1 per game in '07-08.

    Also 7 straight years of minutes declining.


    On a per minute played basis, his stats have also been declining, but not quite as consistently.

    Ben Wallace Statistics - Basketball-Reference.com (look under the per 36 minutes table).


    What is really great for Ben though, is that he is getting paid more for less. Since he was underpaid for most of his career, he deserves it.
  15. Stereodave

    Stereodave First Round Draft Pick

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    This thread, along with the Billups thread, remind me of a theory I have had for awhile.
    Joe Dumars seems to go out of his way to help players who are on their way out the door. I think he offered Ben Wallace the most money he could and still have Chicago beat it, just to get Ben the most money possible.
    The sign and trade that brought Ben to Detroit was designed to get Grant Hill the most money possible, Joe claims Ben and Chucky Atkins were both already lined up as free agents, he did not have to do any deal to get them.
    The Billups to Denver deal was clearly good for Chauncey, his hometown and a young team on the rise. Denver would have taken any deal to get rid of Iverson and other teams would have been interested in Billups. This deal could easily be seen as a favor to Billups.
    There are a couple more examples I can't think of right now plus Joe's long standing policy of trading any player that asks to leave no matter how bad the deal. Dumars has said publicly that any one who wants to go will be gone.
    I can only think that this is part of a long term strategy to reassure players and agents and players families that coming to Detroit will be good for their overall career.

    Maybe this post should be somewhere else but the Ben Wallace talk made me think of it.
  16. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I think that we can pretty much agree that team chemistry isn't the same since Ben left. Nobody has "gone to work" since The Fro became a Bull.

    [strike]Part[/strike] Most of that is coaching but I think that Ben was an integral part of all that was "good" about the old Pistons.

    ...and for the record, I DO think that injuries and age have contributed to Ben's decline no matter who he's played for (or would have played for).
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That big article about Chauncey sort of casts coubt on the theory that Joe rewards these guys. The benefit to rewarding them would be to get FA's who are on the fence in the future to pick your team. In order to do that, you need the reward to be known. From that article, it seems like both Ben and Chauncey felt betrayed by the trade.

    Ben made the comment to Chauncey that was something like "I told you who they were." And Chauncey mentioned that Joe ignored him and didn't fill him in on a possible trade until it was over with.

    Instead of looking at it as rewarding CB, I would probably look at it as Denver having an asset that Joe wanted + Joe knowing that CB wouldn't object to the trade b/c it was his hometown (and by object, I mean that he wouldn't be a pain in the butt about it and Denver was a willing trade partner b/c they knew CB would embrace their destination).

    Joe seems to take pride in his shrewdness and avoids getting too close to the players.
  18. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    To quote EVERY player that has ever been traded bry a professional sports franchise: "This is a business..."

    I think Joe made the right decisions regarding Ben and Chauncey.
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    A viable business strategy could be to "pay it forward" though (like the movie with that obnoxious child-star). Joe probably tries to do that when he can, but I don't think he would go way out of his way to do it.
  20. Stereodave

    Stereodave First Round Draft Pick

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    I am kind of thinking it is the agents who are cold-hearted enough to see they get more money in the long run.

    I am always curious about behind the scenes influences and maybe I watch too much "Entourage"

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