Ben Wallace upset

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Buckeyes#1, May 27, 2009.

  1. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Like Sprewell, right?

    It's always about the money.

    LeBron is set for life.

    If he really wants a championship he will go to the best team for literally whatever.

    Let's see what he does and revisit your statement in 2010 shall we?

    Yet it seems to escape your attention how commensurate this perceived "hate" tends to be in accordance with some fans unconditional (and sometimes blind) love.
  2. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    And the coach (Skiles) that many fans heralded as much better than Flip gave Ben more of the same when it came to beefs Ben had with Flip, plus some.

    Mike Brown as well.

    Obviously the grass wasn't greener, yet some seem unwilling to fault Ben for his unwillingness to be flexible after the championship.

    Unfortunately, the players seemed to mirror the stance of Chauncey Billups

    I understand what Ben did. That doesn't mean what he did was right though. He may have done it for money, he may have done it to be happy. I hope he'll be happy if he never wins another championship. It seems to be what usually happens to the cats that blow this town.
  3. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    hahahaha! THAT'S dedication!
  4. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Which again makes my point. I would understand the love. He was a success here. The point is (or was), that the hatred surrounding a person who succeeded is odd in that the majority of teams/fans/talking heads don't reserve that kind of dislike for someone who succeeded.

    The emphasis was on the fact that he was a success here...not whether he is loved or hated.


    Besides, for all the griping I get about blind love...for every 1 post I make defending him, there are 5 detailing his every flaw as if he should have never been allowed in the NBA...

    That's all fine, but I'm usually not the one who starts the thread and/or discussion on Ben Wallace, yet people seem annoyed that I have anything good to say about him. I dish it out AND I can take it...None of it ruins my day. But, for all the talk of "declining skills" (cliche of the day)...nobody involved with this team (other than McDyess) has done anything to suggest "ascending skills" themselves.
  5. Stereodave

    Stereodave First Round Draft Pick

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    How did it not work out for both sides? Ben got his money, that's good for him and his family. The Pistons did not have to pay it, that's good for us. Chicago and Cleveland got screwed, but I am pretty much OK with that, too.:)
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Oh for the love of Pete! Why do you have to be so intelligent and calm and reasonable Stereodave?
  7. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    The "love/hate" dynamic was in your quote, not mine. If you didn't want it emphasized then I guess I don't understand why you brought it up.

    Ben Wallace is not Adrian Dantley. He's more like Shaq when he left the Magic for the Lakers.


    Unfortunately many fans want to paint Ben in a heroic light. I can understand the love,however, when it is pointed out that Ben wasn't as infallible as he is made out to be it gets labelled as hate?

    Ben left. He wasn't run out of town. Joe's offer was more than fair financially. Ben, despite all of his success here, doesn't hold a candle to Isiah Thomas' left sneaker, and even Zeke didn't get away with the kind of tether Ben wanted. So why should Ben expect a coach to be fired so he can spend the tail end of his career here clinging to what he once was while the team is limited to the MLE in an off season where we desperately need Joe to have not only flexibility, but tons of luck?

    Especially when the coach was likely in the right. This team has proven it's big headedness after Flip has left. Two successive coaches have followed suit with Flips treatment of Ben, which happens to have been the preceding coaches treatment of Ben, despite the revisionist ideologue's version of what transpired while the team was winning.

    Once again, I don't fault him for leaving. He did what he had to do in his mind. I don't think it was the smartest thing he could have done though. Same as all of the other guys Joe has let leave when they wanted to, not one of those big names has won a championship to rub in Joe's face. Lesser players have done just that, even players I myself have labeled as "not winners". So it's possible, yet Big Ben hasn't done it.
    Pointing out that Joe may have made the right decision by not bending his own rule and overpaying Ben and keeping us from talking about making a run for Boozer, Millsap, Gordon...or anybody this year...thats not hate. It's just the truth. Cavs fans are mega ticked that there is a guy getting paid more than Lebron that was all but useless in comparison during the playoffs hurting their financial flexibility during this crucial offseason in which they only have one more year left to convince him to stick around.
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Nice to see you around Cloud. I missed you. :)
  9. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Not for 15 million a year at this juncture he shouldn't.

    Right now?

    No.

    I'm all for him getting what he earned back in the day. I was even for Joe paying it, initially.

    But I won't pretend he's still worth what he is getting paid currently.

    Thats when I reach for the cane and the Golden Retriever, and change my name to Jake Malinak

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    He can suggest it all he wants but he hasn't proven it statistically beyond the context of injury recovery and minutes played.

    Rookies get better as they age as well, but at some point there is a decline, most especially in the light of injuries that go untreated, as is the case with Ben.
  10. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    <covers chest and runs>




    :bolt:


    inside joke folks
  11. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    It was not mentioned in a vacuum. It was included in the same paragraphed that stated his success here. So, if you can choose to emphasize one portion of my statement, it would help to take the whole statement. That way you would understand why I brought it up.

    It also serves to note that Joe D hasn't won another championship since showing any of those players the way to the exit. So, I don't see any major sort of "I told you so" coming from Joe D's office either. So, what's your point? Joe hasn't proven anything to me by winning a championship without them.

    It's hardly truth...the 4 year deal Joe wanted to give Ben would have been up this year anyway. So, you'd still be in the position your in now with money coming off the cap and the ability to chase whatever "next big thing" you are looking for. It's clear this team hasn't succeeded since he and LB left. I just happen to think this team would have fared better if those two had been kept around. That's my opinion. We have the current failure of a team as proof of what happened when not keeping those "unneeded" elements around and I'm still going to feel that way long after Ben and LB leave the game. The truth is Ben left and this team suffered for it. If you all feel the team succeeded after Ben left, you're entitled to that. We just have different markers for success. I feel both HE and the TEAM would have fared better together, but Joe D decided to crap can that concept when he hired Saunders. So be it.

    I'm not going to apologize for having an opinion on the matter.
  12. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    ..and can we please all stop acting as if I'm saying Ben is avg'ing 20rpg right now.
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    This is the whole statement
    After which I suggested that the hate may be directly proportionate to the "love", the same as it is for Amir and was for Darko.

    Same with Chauncey. The more things people want to misremember to love him, the more things will get brought up to take him back down to where he should be, which is not a Piston anymore, by his own choice.
  14. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I've searched, yet still cannot find one instance of such a gross insinuation.
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    If he matched Chicago's contract it would have been up next year.
  16. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    My point is, you claimed Ben's motivation was happiness.

    I said I hope he's happy not winning a Championship.

    See, Joe can't choose who signs with the team, but players can choose who they sign with.

    Want to go play for a contender? Feel you can make them better? Put them over the top?

    Players can do that.

    Players, thusly, are in a better position to win a championship for themselves than a GM who is bound by the cap and trade restrictions and, of course, inability to circumvent free will.

    The field isn't level in that aspect. A player that wants to win a championship is far better equipped to play for a contender if money is not an object than a team is equipped to become a contender just because they wish it to be so.

    And I didn't have to explain that to you or anyone else here. You knew it as you were typing that sentence.

    The "I told you so"....comes when they fail to achieve the same success elsewhere even though they had their pick of destinations. It is all that is prevalent when they toss their sneakers to the side for the last time and have to reconcile whether or not never winning a championship for their new team was worth an extra 2 million.

    If you do believe Ben had a chance to win another championship with this team, then it seems to me that you would understand more than anyone the error in judgment he made in his refusal to take anything less than a "my way or the highway" approach with the coach.

    Plenty of successful partnerships are formed by people that don't really like each other.
  17. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Heh? Chauncey was traded. And please don't give me the tired old "He chose not to be here by not winning championships on a pulled groin" arguments I keep reading on here.
  18. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Another thing we agree on.

    Yet one tidbit of info you consistently leave out when mentioning this is how LB approached Joe and Bill after the Pistons won the championship with a list of rotational players (Richard Hamilton's name is the one that I remember, but not many know exactly who he wanted to dump...Ben could have very well topped that list) that he wanted to put on the trade market.

    That was precursor to the end between he and Pistons brass.

    It's a nice thought to envision everybody sticking together happily ever after like a fairy tale, but it wasn't going to happen that way, no matter who would have been calling the shots, besides perhaps one of us.
  19. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    His name was mentioned in the context of players who are being remembered for inflated good sans bad by many a fan.

    Not for leaving of his own accord.

    I remember him for the aftermath of thoughts like this one

  20. Blue

    Blue First Round Draft Pick

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    I guess there's a couple of ways to spin it.

    He was also heavily criticized by Chi media for under-producing. He went to Cleveland, and is now buyout fodder. Fans in Detroit clearly hate him. Oh yeah, he never won anything (individual accomplishments or rings). I think when he left he thought it would end up working out better than that... that's all I'm trying to say.

    True, but at the time the Pistons were only one year removed from the finals. They sort of had a decision to make: let Ben walk and keep Flip, or keep Ben and fire Flip and try to go back to the "going to work" era. They chose to let Ben walk and never returned to the finals. Now the team is where it's at today. I think when Joe let Ben walk he thought it would end up working out better than that... that's all I'm trying to say.

    Word on this one.

    To sum up:

    Moneywise you're right... both sides made out like bandits.

    NBA accomplishment-wise... not so much, but both sides are still probably OK with that.

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