Ben Wallace upset

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Buckeyes#1, May 27, 2009.

  1. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Again, you insist on ignoring any reference made to success or failure...I can't help you any further.
  2. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    The end of the sentence I quoted doesn't negate the existence of the beginning, no matter how coy you attempt to be.

    You call it "hate". I say (for the third time now?) it is an equal and opposite reaction generated by the blind "love" and every fallacious remark it fosters.

    You shouldn't have said hate if you didn't want to talk about hate and it's opposing emotion.

    "Hate" was your topic in this thread before it was mine.
  3. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Case in point:

    This is just in this thread...I've lost count of how many Ben Wallace debates we've had over the last 3 years...It just continues.
  4. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Hardly...you can split hairs all you like, however the fact of the matter is my sentence clearly states the "hate" is for a guy who "succeeded." Not just a guy. Not just a guy I liked. Not just a guy on the Pistons. Not just a guy with an afro. A GUY WHO SUCCEEDED.

    It is the one statement within the sentence that sets the expectation for how the "hate" is to be applied. It's basic comprehension. The hate is to be viewed BASED ON whether or not the individual was successful or failed. It's plain as day whether or not you choose to acknowledge it.
  5. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Say all you want, but I took issue with your use of the word hate. That's been plain and simple for hours now.

    If you feel more comfortable obfuscating this issue with a totally different topic like success or failure, then have at it, but it still doesn't have any bearing on whether or not you may be mislabeling realism as hate.

    It matters not one iota whether we are talking about Darko Milicic or Bob Lanier. If the use of the words "hate" and "love" are out of context, then they are. Success or lack thereof notwithstanding.
  6. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    I couldn't disagree more. Players have some options. That's why they worked to get free agency back when there was none. However, Player A has no control whatsoever over the team he wants to play for. If Team A has no cap room, already established players (of comparable talent), a chemistry they don't wish to disturb, or simply just interest in a different player, there is nothing Player A can do to force himself onto Team A. He must then look at teams B, C, and D to determine which situation A) benefits him personally and B) gives him a good chance of winning or C) takes care of any number of other personal issues that helps him make the decision.

    Player A may have the power ONCE in his entire career to determine where he wants to play, but all the factors listed above can nullify that choice before he even gets on the open market. So, the GM's/owners really have the ultimate power because they can decide who to include on their roster at the end of the day. So it may mean absolutely zero if Player A wants to play on the best team in the league if the GM/owner doesn't want to bring Player A in OR if they decide to go after Player B because he's A) cheaper B) plays a position they need more or C) planning to sign big name free agents two years from now.

    Player A doesn't have any more control at the end of the day other than to pick which of the deals he's being offered that seem the best to him at the end of the day and because he's not Jerry West or Trader Jack, Player A can't tell on paper that Team A or Team C is going to win it all and then pick to be on that team. It never has and probably never will work that way.
  7. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

    You didn't start this thread. The Locsta's original opinion wasn't addressed to you.

    Unless I'm unaware of some insidious PM, your participation and multiple attempts to take various posters to task for their beliefs was fairly unprovoked.

    Lets examine:

    Two problems with this post.

    You for some unproven reason feel that his assertion that Ben's decline was inevitable no matter what team he played for was false. When in fact you have no more proof than he does.
    I would contend you have less, for reasons I have already listed i.e. Athlete who's game is dependent on his freakish athleticism with untreated injuries moving into his mid to late 30's after multiple years of playing deep into the post season.

    second red flag, you claim Ben would have come off the books this summer, which is dead wrong unless we follow your unwarranted assumption that Joe wouldn't have had to match Chicago in order to retain his all-star's services.

    That's not even an assumption that I myself can consider viable without a quote from Ben stating specifically so, yet you have presented it as fact in multiple threads.

    Sure, no blind love to see here.

    Move on folks.
  8. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I'm sorry to have been drug back into this conversation......

    I don't hate nor have I ever hated Ben. I simply pointed out the fact that his production has gone down steadily every year while his pay has gone up and that Joe made a wise move by not signing him to an extension and you blamed me for being nieve as if Ben would have remained at the top of the NBA had he remained with the Pistons. I also was called a "hater" because I don't think a team like Cleveland owes him a damn thing. If anyone owes him something it would have been the Pistons who he did so much for but Ben walked away from that a long time ago. IMO nobody has owed him anything since he signed that contract for top dollar while producing average results at best. But hey, more power to him. Nobodies hating here, just callin' it like I see it.

    Who ever said he didn't succeed? Your argument is mute because nobody's "hating" and nobody's saying he didn't succeed.

    Plain and simple so feel free to twist these facts any way you choose:

    a) Ben's production has dropped like a rock for the past 4+ years and counting.
    b) He CHOSE to leave so any argument regarding the talent around him makes no sense.
    c) Whether it's a good business decision or not isn't what I was commenting on. The man says he "deserves" a buyout. How? For the years of servitude he provided Cleveland?

    Ben was awesome as a Piston (one of the all-time greats) but he's a shell of his former self and anyone who argues the opposite is kidding themselves.
  9. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    The word hate is just that, hate. It's still hate, but hate based on success or failure.

    If you can't understand that, that's your problem not mine.

    No one is obfuscating anything, you are simply attempting to suggest that I can't use the word hate. That's pointless. The word fits because it's accurate. If you think there are posters here that don't have a hate for Ben Wallace, you are kidding yourself. Furthermore, that statement never said there was no matching love for Ben Wallace. What it said is that there wasn't the same hatred for people who failed miserably in Detroit. Now if you want to argue the merits of hate for people who failed here, then we have something to talk about, otherwise, you can continue arguing about the use of the word hate, but that's minutes of your life you'll never get back. Enjoy.
  10. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    No one said you did.
  11. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    GM's really cannot...but Okay.

    You, me, and everyone reading this thread know that if it weren't for the salary cap and greed, this league would be tremendously lopsided, no matter who the GM was and what kind of game they were spitting from the owners suite.

    Like I said.

    LeBron, 2010.

    Lets see if he follows the best team or the biggest stack of cash.

    And then you can repeat all of stuff you just typed.
  12. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    You're missing the point. The statement was based on someone WHO SUCCEEDED.

    I never made the assessment that people were saying he failed. Second, this forum does have posters who hate Ben Wallace; just like it has posters who hate LB, or Flip, or Curry.

    It's just a fact.
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    And if you can't understand how it is directly proportionate to the revisionist history that is totally unproven yet flaunted by unflinching Ben Wallace fans as canon, then I can't help you either.

    Either way, its true.

    Same as Darko, same as Stackhouse, same as Amir.

    What you call hate is just as possibly an equal and opposite reaction to the blind lovefest as it is an emotion generated by whatever reason of the day makes people feel good and justified.
  14. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    1st. Teams/owners are not a bottomless pit. They do not have endless resources to just continue signing players for maximum amounts of money until the end of time, so you could take away the salary cap and you'd still have teams that only got two or three of the best guys they could because owners can't finance that roster and have a franchise in business for more than 10 years. The salaries would cap themselves regardless of the 5 - 10 guys out of 400 that got insane contracts.

    2nd. Lebron will go where he chooses, but you mark my words. Any team that Lebron even whispered that he was thinking about going to would dump their entire roster if it meant they would have enough cap space and it would guarantee them Lebron. BUT, since there is a limit on how much teams can pay...there is a clear marker for what teams would have to do to get under that cap if they thought Lebron would come there. Memphis would waive their entire roster, if they could, to get under the cap to bring in Lebron. He's only going to make so much, so at the end of the day, he's going to play where he wants to play. He's going to make his endorsement money and everthing else no matter where he goes. He will play in the city he wishes to play for, not for whoever can pay him the most because it's a predetermined amount.
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Low.
    You labeled certain peoples opinions as being driven by "hate".

    It doesn't matter why you did it, becuase it won't negate, disprove, or reverse the fact that you did it.

    I feel as if next we are going get treated to a BJ Clinton and be told that it all depends on what we feel is meant by the word "is".
  16. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    What is this revisionist history? I'd like to know what the great false myths are about Ben Wallace that we all have somehow missed out on and have to have exposed.
    What he did during his time in Detroit was pretty self explanatory and I hardly know of BWHOF'ers spreading legend. His performance and the team's success are pretty well documented and I think it speaks for itself.

    It's hardly like Amir...he hasn't succeeded at all and people on the forum get toasted for wanting to get rid of him. I hardly hear/read the giant throng of PF.com posters railing on about how happy they will be when Joe finally gets rid of Amir.
  17. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    So we agree that money isn't that big of a factor to a man that makes more in endorsements than any team can wiggle under the cap to pay?

    If he really wants to win a championship he will take as little as the MLE to play for the "best fit" out of every team out there.

    If you took the "superstar" off of the last 4 teams remaining in this years playoffs, who would be left standing? Probably LA and Orlando. Cleveland would surely be #4.

    This has been an issue for years, and not until these players are reeking of ben gay and noxema do they finally wise up and do anything but follow the money.

    We both have a fair idea of what LeBron will do, and it won't be to go to the best team standing without him on it, despite that kind of teams historical playoff success, and despite what he says he wants.
  18. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's my opinion and I'm still not apologizing for it. You seem to care that I did it (labeled opinions as driven by hate). So what. I'm still going to feel that way in the morning and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I need to answer to you or anyone else for my opinion. Some people hated Ben Wallace. I never said everyone does, or the entire forum hates Ben, or every person I debate the issue with hates Ben, but over the last 3 or 4 seasons, I have read enough posts to know that there are people on this forum that hated (or still hate) Ben Wallace.

    So, is what you're telling is that I can't say it? Is it that there can be people who hate Ben Wallace, but I'm not allowed to say people post things because they hate Ben Wallace?

    I hated Flip. I had no problem saying it, I just didn't try to mask it in some fallacy of objective criticism that was based solely on his performance.
    So, I don't know what your goal is...is it to suggest that I'm a bad fan, or a bad poster, or a bad person, or unwilling to see someone else's point?
  19. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    .......

    I've already pointed out two things you have purported as fact in this thread alone that aren't factual.

    One being Bens contract had Joe matched Chicago (wouldn't have been up until next year, meaning Joe would be on the hook for 15 million this year) and two being your contention that anyone (anyone) has accused you of claiming Ben would be averaging 20 rebounds per game as a Piston.

    Unfortunately, when folks point out that Joe may have been wise to let this man walk, you have historically gotten riled up in defense of some grand perceived "hatred".

    I don't care if "some" of it is hate, or "most" of it is hate. You are stepping in to label it hate when it isn't proven to be the truth. IMO, That only serves to feed the hate, legitimate or no.

    And thats what I stated.
  20. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    That still doesn't work. If that was the case, then everyone would have follwed the Lakers model of Kobe, Shaq, Karl, and Gary. But, that kind of team building doesn't guarantee you a ring. You need a balanced roster with all your bases covered. If the Lakers got Lebron, it still wouldn't guarantee a title because nothing does. Besides, he could stay with CLE and still earn the max because they had the best record in the NBA. Just trying to tag on where you think all the other stars are doesn't guarantee you a ring.

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