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Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Menace, Apr 3, 2009.
Of course I blame the players more. The coach is only one portion of the equation. The players have to actually sweat, hustle, make shots and react in real time. The coach coaches the same in Game 50 and Game 81 as he does in the ECF. So why the different results? Well one, there is tougher competition. And two, there is a fatigue concern. But three, if the coaching is constant with rotations, then I don't understand how successful coaching results in the first two rounds cannot be translated to the third round. If we strip away all of the hoopla of the ECF, it's just another tough team in another series where everyone is tired. In hindsight, I was very critical of Flip. I don't know how anyone can watch this season, and not have a little more respect for the job he did, unless you believe Chauncey was the key component, which again undermines the idea that Flip was to blame when it mattered. It can't be had both ways. Do I think there is a conspiracy, these guys sit around and scheme and machinate? No. Do I think they collectively have covered each other's asses, throwing the coach under the bus if they have to? Absolutely. It's human nature. They have a bias about their own performance, and they are interested in self-preservation. None of that should come as any surprise because you and I have the same incentives and biases.
We ended up with a worse coach than Flip...so in that regard Flip does end up looking better. Chauncey was very much a key component and his complacent swagger did us in as much as Flip's inability to motivate.
I was very critical of Flip as well. - STILL am! ...and no, I don't have more respect for him based on what's happening this season. I think that we all concur that Mike Curry sucks. But he didn't inherit the same team that Flip inherited from LB. This team is damaged. In my opinion, Flip did most of the damage. LB's Pistons were hungry and played with chips on their shoulders. They played the right way. They played for each other and they played for their coach. Flip's Pistons started out that way but developed bad habits and bad team characteristics really quick. - And Flip LET IT HAPPEN. Flip didn't earn the respect of his players. He was coaching a group of guys that had achieved more success than he ever did. They tuned him out (remember that Sheed pic you used for your avatar). They developed their "switch flipping" mentality and gradually moved farther and farther away from the hungry team that he started with. He shoulda put a stop to it as soon as it started happening. - he didn't. He ruined them. in the fall of 05/06, the Pistons needed a STRONG personality to step in and coach. - Flip was weak and they proceedd to walk all over him until his final demise. All the while, the team moved further and further away from the principles that made up their identity. Michael Curry isn't a "B+" coach. - He's aweful! In his defense though, he doesn't have a whole lot to work with anymore (Chauncey or NO Chauncey). - and for THAT, you can thank Flip Saunders.
It's true, BallDon'tLie don't lie.
I think the thing with Flip was that Dumars did not feel the need to bring in another ball buster. Thought his players were mature enough to not need someone pushing them. Flip had a lot of good offensive schemes, thing just always unraveled when the pressure was on in the playoffs.
Agreed. Fancy plays are going to be countered in the 6th game of a series against a good defensive team. The only way to win is to have a player like Kobe, who is undefendable, or to just play better D than your opponent. We didn't have that player and we didn't play better D.
I think Joe made a crossroads choice. He had to get rid of Larry to satisfy Mr. D, and he needed the players on board for that. So he brought in an enabler, who enabled the All-Star appearances, who enabled the big minutes and big numbers. I've said it many times before, I would stay up late after playoff games and get the transcripts to post on the forum. I would read (before it was reported) how these guys would throw the coach under the bus, but I had just watched the game, and the coach was doing what he did all season when they were happy to be winners, and all stars and Billups was basking in MVP chants. Now suddenly, the approach was all wrong. Joe's mistake in my opinion, is that he has been too close to these guys to be objective. Trader Jack was close to his guys, but he never came between Chuck and Zeke or Zeke and Laimbs. The GM worked with the coach, not the players. It was the coach's job to handle the personnel on a day to day level. I imagine that is how Popovich is with his GM (RC Buford). Same thing with Phil Jackson. The coach has to be the alpha and omega for the players. If people can slip into the GMs office to complain, or if the GM is always doing interviews about his players and never talking about the coach, then it undermines authority. I hope he has learned the lesson from this. I thought Billups most complete play was when he had Mike James and Chucky Atkins behind him, and still had not secured that big career making contract. It's human nature to push a little less hard when things are easy, and to try like hell when we're desperate. That's why I hope Joe doesn't bring Sheed back unless he can see some way to motivate Sheed to be his best. Only Larry seemed capable of that. There is a guy who isn't a self-starter and enjoys it, but deep down, he wants someone to drive him, to forcefully encourage him to be great.
AMEN.... add to that, all our young players at this point have had no time with LB or any other good coach at the pro level. I am not impressed with any of our bench coaches either. what have max amir AA or Rodney added to there game since they got here? Chauncey went from scoring guard to floor general, Rip added range to his shot, Ben was spoon fed offense to make him get "some attention" on def...
Ros - good points. Its more than just a job with Dumars. McKlosky was hired to be more of a classic GM wheras Dumars is more part of the franchise. Although that can change with the new ownership - we will have to see. As great as the old Pistons were Dumars has said on several occasions that he does not want a team that will take 10 years to rebuild. That was the mistake McKlosky made, although granted - things were different then. Dumars has made some mistakes with the coaches. I don't think there was much of a choice with LB. Davidson made the final call but I think it was more of him getting sick enough of all the drama to just end it and take the blame. I interperated his press conference back in 05 as more of a "if you want to blame someone then blame me - and lets move on" kind of deal. As fans - I think we all want the same thing. And thats a team that we can all get behind and identify with. Its hard to get behind what we have had the past few years.
Absolutely three-six! I was about to post a very similar statement over in that "Rasheed Tribute" thread. The way I see it, as long a Sheed sees that the team is heading down the right path, he plays inspired basketball. Once things got mucked-up with Flip, he just seemed to lose interest and say "Why am I bustin' my butt for this chump. He ain't gonna lead us nowhere!" Sheed half-asses it around the court and camps out above 3-pt line for the same reason that Ben Wallace bolted for Chi-Town. No leadership, no identity, no accountability. ...why bother! Unless things change, I could see Rasheed taking the Barry Sanders route and just simply retiring on the grounds of "organizational incompetency".
I think that is why Sheed tries to take on the refs. A lot of it is about trying to fire himself up. The dude has been getting screwed on calls for ages. But it was never about justice as much as getting his head in the game. I think Sheed really respected that Larry protected him with the refs, and Larry stood up for him. Flip and to a lesser degree MC lament the lack of personal discipline, but if you go back to the 1st or 2nd podshow Low and I talked about how each player needs something different from the coach. With the enormous value that Sheed brings to the Pistons when he is on, it would seem logical to me he would be the guy you would be most concerned about when selecting a coach and choosing a coaching style. Man, I totally managed to derail this AI thread. ;)
Well, this IS a Pistons forum. Is AI even still considered a Piston? ...Who cares where Allen Iverson ends up next year.
How many plays do the Pistons run for Sheed on offense? It seems to me that he does more to set up the guards or Tay. LB teams had great balance that kept everyone involved. One of my fav LB stories was when Lindsey Hunter said that LB used to pick fights with Sheed when he started getting on the refs too much because Sheed would turn his ire towards LB. I can't picture Flip or MC ever doing that. LB was able to listen to the players but also be forceful about his way. The players appreciated both of these things.
Sheed just wants a coach who will say something when he messes up his desk.
Flip often told Sheed that instead of yelling at the refs, to yell at him. But that further lessened Sheed's respect for Flip. LB's method was tricky good.
That kind of highlights the gap between them. LB would go after the refs something fierce while giving Sheed something to get angry at. Flip let the refs walk all over him and thought Sheed would just come over and yell at him instead.
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