Big Trouble in Little China?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Apr 8, 2006.

  1. lurker

    lurker First Round Draft Pick

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    "Every time I step on the floor, there is no question why I am out there," he said. "I play to win. I don't want to settle for being a good team. I want to reach greatness. None of this was ever given to me. I had to work for everything I've got and I am going to continue to work."

    When Big Ben first got here and started getting some national attention, people were comparing him to Rodman. This quote shows what a fiercely driven team leader he is, and sounds more like Zeke. Nobody is thrilled with how Ben handled the situtation in Orlando, but at least he didn't break his hand on the back of a teammate's head.

    I also like this quote from Ben from a few weeks ago:
    "Some people say losing builds character. I say losing just sucks."
  2. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

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    Gotta say, I'm a bit surprized at the general acceptance by many of Bens refusal to play. YKW was roundly crucified for his lack of passion during garbage time. Now the Stones heart and soul gets a pass for a much higher offense.
    I originally believed the refusal was made with a wink-wink, as a some type of good luck message to YKW & CA. With more time to reflect on the details I think Ben has commited a major faupah (sp).
  3. DirtyMoney

    DirtyMoney First Round Draft Pick

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    Basically what he is saying is that the ball isn't rotated enough.
  4. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    No, I'm saying the strategy to have him more involved and not play 4 on 5 was a contributing factor to the championship. I don't ever think it's a good idea to play a team shorthanded, especially when it's self imposed.
  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I was proud of how Ben handled his touches yesterday. 4 Assists.

    @lemonpen, I have to disagree. YKW's lack of effort was sending a message about himself. Ben sent a message to the team (right or wrong) about their play and how it is not good enough to win (right or wrong).

    If YKW wanted to send a message to his teammates, the appropriate one would have been , "Here I come balls to the wall, I'm taking your job so step it up or get rolled on".

    Lurker makes a great point about the fiery leader. Someone has to be the conscience of the team, and while refusing to go in may upset us and our unrealistic expectations of goodness, Ben sent a message and it was heard by the intended audience. What we or ABC or the world at large thinks doesn't matter.

    Opposing defences need to be made to work harder.

    And for everyone upset about Ben shooting in the post, I cannot count how many times in the last two years that Ben has drawn an early foul on the other team's big (see Shaq last Thursday) which gave the Pistons an advantage in the first quarter by taking the aggression out of their foe.

    Yes he needs to make his bunnies. Yes, he needs to touch the ball to keep defenses honest.
  6. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    That's a solid point... no touches = better interior defense for opponents.
  7. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    If Ben could hit 55-60% of his free throws this wouldn't be an issue. He has been hitting at about a 20% clip over the last couple months. It has come to a point where the opponent fouling him = a turnover.

    Ben should know it's his own fault that he isn't a part of the offense.

    And actually, I laugh that he complains he just wants to "touch" the ball and he doesn't care about shooting when he's averaging a career high in assists.
  8. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    lol. We have to put BBen on a shot count.
  9. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    I've always wondered why Ben is such an awful FT shooter. Why doesn't he just bend his knees a LITTLE bit, instead of not at all? His stroke isn't that bad, it's not a god-awful line drive like Shaq's. If he just went through a proper shooting motion, he might be at least in the low 60s.
  10. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    The motion is the least of it. The most technically unsound free throw shooters in the NBA can shoot at least 50%, and virtually never shoot airballs. With Ben it's got to be almost completely psychological.
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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  12. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

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    No argument from me about how YKW should have approached his problems. My point is that his percieved failure to "try hard enough" brought big time wrath from us TEAM guys.
    Ben didn't send any message that could not have been expressed behind the scenes in some manner.
    As I see it there are some rules that apply to all, from 1 to 15. No exceptions. Willful refusal to enter a game when directed draws a team imposed suspension and fine. Messages are conveyed both ways.

    If Bens next message ocurrs during a playoff game, and the outcome is similarly a loosing one, opinions will likely change.

    Suspensions and fines are necessary and bitter pills to swallow, for both sides.
  13. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Seems to me that more touches for Ben helps everything to work better. The key is to give him enough that he doesn't feel obliged to try to back the defender down and shoot every time. I'd love to see the ball go into Ben in the post and then come back out a handful of times each game. It forces the defense to move, it gets Ben involved, and it probably makes the times he does try a move easier.

    Frankly though if what it takes to motivate Ben to grab fifteen boards, make a couple of steals, block a couple of shoots, and play some killer defense is allowing him to go one on three from the post a couple of times a game, sounds like a fair trade to me. Don't really care if he scores or not. And to micro's point, any foul he can draw from Shaq or Duncan is worth more than any scoring Ben will do from the line.
  14. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    I`m sorry but I don`t believe Ben`s little tantrum was about just "touches". Since when did Ben get a revalation that he is Vlade Divac in the post? Touches for what?

    If he does get his touches, maybe they can be lightning quick touches, like a touch pass to a cutter.

    Has anyone ever noticed when Ben has the ball at the top of the circle, his man immediately backs off about 5 feet and the defense is in a 1-2-2 zone, EVERYONE IN THE PAINT!

    I love Ben and what he contributes to this team, however, the only touches Ben should get is on the receiving end of Rip`s ally-oop pass.

    Honestly, I am not against Ben getting touches as long as there is a set play being run and Ben doesn`t hold the ball forever. He tends to get the ball and size up the defense like he is MJ, (that`s Mike Jordan, not James).

    Tell you what, Ben gets what Ben wants, see how many touches he gets tonight. I`l say at least 8.
  15. Capn

    Capn First Round Draft Pick

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    I'm surprised Ben hasn't at least improved somewhat offensively working with both Dice and Sheed. You would think that they would help with some of his post up moves.

    I cringe when I see he gets the ball in the posts and either tries to back down his defender or does a bunch of dribbling to get around his defender and the basket. Not a pretty site. I agree that any fouls he can draw on Duncan or Shaq is HUGE, but to say that he was complaining about his touches is ridiculous. I think he is just worried that he is not involved in the offense as much. Whereas it's becoming 4 on 5. He doesn't want touches in the sense of trying to score, but more so in the aspect of moving the ball around.

    Just my opinion.
  16. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I don't think the tantrum was just about touches either. I'd suspect that his free throwing frustrations and maybe just not wanting to lose to Darko when he thought he might do something about that contributed.

    And while defenders might back off when Ben gets the ball at the top of the key, they can't do that if he gets the ball on the block. Again, I'm not saying that he should shoot every time, and in fact, shooting every time he gets it probably makes those shots he does take harder. All I'm saying is that it's easier to move the ball around the floor with five guys than with four. And moving the ball around the floor creates good shots for the team.

    And the occasional foul on a key opponent when Ben does shoot. Sheed always holds the ball over his head and just turns and shoots over pretty much everyone. Ben, at his size can't do that. (Actually, as I've noted, Ben at his size can't shoot over the inflatable seven footer Ben.) But, his clutching the ball like a running back and turning into defenders does seem to produce more fouls.
  17. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I've seen BBen shoot some uncontested midrange shots. He just needs an excellerant to heat up.
    We've seen BBen get some fouls but we let the guy finish the game with 2. Another strange aspect of Flips coaching.
  18. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Ok, I can get with that, however, when Ben gets the ball it doesn`t seem to move for a while. It`s like he is waiting, looking, hesitating, which gives the defense a chance to get settled.

    Sometimes Ben does throw a nice crisp pass to someone but not very often.

    I am not against Ben getting more touches as long as it`s in the flow of the offense - most of the time when the ball comes to Ben there is a long pause in ball movement.

    Since Flip`s playbook is telephone book thick, there should be something labeled "Ben`s touches", let`s see if Flip uses it.
  19. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yeah, I think we're saying similar things. You're right, Ben can hold the ball and look around way too long. Toss it into the post, let the defense start to move, and toss it back out. He's so predictable now - get the ball, take a shot. A little variety might open up his offensive game a bit.
  20. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    We might see a lot more stuff running thru Ben before the season ends...
    If he can show some semblance of an offensive game it could influence opponents not to sag off during the playoffs....

    He's gotta work out his FT % or Hack-A-Ben will be in full swing for the playoffs.

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