Billups vs. Iverson

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by SmartIversonFan, Jan 26, 2009.

  1. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    great post Star...i'll throw some more of more thoughts on this...

    I've watched almost every game of his since his 2 or 3rd year in the lg (and before that every nationally televised pro/college game)..so im probably a little biased...

    First as far as the nuggets are concerned there are many reasons why this year the Nuggets are a better team besides Billups being there...but Billups is probably the biggest reason of them all..

    Iverson is a better player than Billups..

    but

    By far Billups is a better leader than AI..which is why he has helped the Nuggets so much...In order to be a great team in this league you need to have leadership...that was def something the Nuggets lacked last year...AI is a great player but he's not the leader in a sense where he will get on a player who isn't doing what they need to or make sure everyone is always doing what they need to in order to win...He's going to play hard and give 100% and just hope the rest of his team does the same...Billips on the other hand is a vocal leader and will get on some1 who isn't doing what they need to be doing and he makes sure every1 is doing what they need to do...which is EXACTLY what the nuggets needed...they didn't need a player better than AI(and they didnt get 1)...they needed a good player who could be their leader, floor general, whatever you wanna call it (and thats what they got in cb)

    This is part of why imo the Pistons are struggling ...Billups was there leader the same way he is for the nuggets...but now that he's gone...det has no real leadership...they probably were expecting or hoping Iverson would be that guy but he cant do that...not because he's "selfish" or whatever else some people say (not really talking about anyone on this board..just in general) ...it's just not who he is...it's not in his dna as a player...not to mention that the Pistons have horrible coaching but we all know about that..

    IMO thats what keeps AI from being a top 10 or 15 player of all time...if he had the vocal floor general leadership that Billups,Lebron, or cp3..guys like that have along with his amazing talent...he would def be a top 10 player of all time...but because he's more of a lead by example type of player...he's not a top 10 player of all time..

    In order for an AI team to be successful they need have solid leadership outside of AI that are more vocal leaders...and they need good coaching who knows how to utilize AI's talents effectively
  2. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Neat post Star Jones. I usually skip right over those lengthy ones, but yours was well worth reading. Interesting perspective.

    I really enjoy the female posters here. Many (not all) of you males are pompous and boring...:stirthepot:
  3. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Good post Star. Like Darth, it has taken me over 20 hours to read it..but it deserves some comments:

  4. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    Pompous...maybe yes. But just cuz we don't have lacy underwear and thigh highs to loan you doesn't mean we're boring :bounce:
  5. Star Jones

    Star Jones First Round Draft Pick

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    Pass...You got me. I'm stumped. I think I get what you are saying, but I've never been able to respond. But, I always read your posts.

    Here is how I can explain the stumbling block to Allen being the vocal leader:

    I have a friend who has an uncle that is brilliant. I think he has like two PhDs, but I forget which Ivy League school he attended. The guy is really smart and someone that you would normally listen to because he knows what he's talking about.

    By the way, he's a crackhead.

    I'm not kidding. So, you've got this guy that pretty much knows the answer to every question that you would probably ask. He is the go to guy and you'd probably go to him every time, if you didn't know that he is also a crackhead.

    Allen is a brilliant player with a higher IQ and basketball IQ than most would want to give him credit for. His tendency to gamble on defense is in part because he sees plays faster than the other players. He knows where the guy wants to pass the ball.

    He is a go to guy...

    That parties like it's 1999. Used to eat Taco Bell by the bagload before games. Practices because he's tired of hearing about it and just may show up in flip flops when he gets there.

    Who is going to listen to the basketball crackhead?

    Chris Webber can kiss my black butt.

    As for his (and many others) assertion that Allen needs to play with robots, I think that is an insult. It used to pain me to see how hamstrung the Philly organization became simply because Larry took the easy way out instead of coaching Allen.

    My goodness, if it were up to Larry the Showtime Lakers would've never been. Jason Kidd would've been benched after every pass that sorta, kinda went into the stands because he didn't use a simple bounce pass. He cannot coach unusual talents.

    Jim O'Brien coached Allen. He coached the other Sixers. He coached them at the same time and with the same expectations. They were onto something until Chris Webber.

    Chris Webber can kiss my black butt.

    While they may have folded in the playoffs, Joe could've done the trades and the new contract in a way where minds did not have to be absolutely blown.

    Off this board, outside of Detroit and a few areas inside, It's. All. Allen's. Fault. He's the headline and very few of the other factors that have gone into this season are taken into account.

    Seventeen days for Joe to pull something out of the air. It should be interesting.

    While I do believe that Richard has the intestinal fortitude of a Twinkie. It didn't have to squeezed all out onto the table for all of the world to see.

    I don't know if I agree that Detroit fans love Allen. We'll see. Yeah, nothing has happened to Richard other than the yanking. He's still scoring just about the same in less time.

    P.S. I hope this only takes 15 hours to read. :D
  6. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Star; how do you coach AI? I have heard a ton of posters complain that the reason we are struggling is because we are not letting AI play like AI. You can't put him in a structured system so how do you coach him. Is there a system he can play? :stirthepot:

    It seems to me that everyone that says he is a great player wants him to dribble all over and make plays but how can his teammates play with him when there is no rhyme or reason to his play?
  7. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I don't think any team has been able to figure it out hence his career. The only real success he's had is basically being surrounded by non-offensive players with one of the greatest coaches ever and even then it fell apart when it mattered. I don't know if there's a middle ground. AI is set in being "AI", and the team is not going to pretend to be Eric Snows. They would both have to adjust. That being said, I think you bring up a really interesting point. We all talk about making it work; if player A did this or player B does that. And we see flashes where we look like we figured it out and look brilliant. But can it even really work in the 1st place ?

    Some PHI fans always use to say that the reason their team could look so good and then so bad is because they ebb and flow according to how Iverson is playing and he is the farthest thing from consistent. Alot of his teammates would go from scoring 20 to 4 to 24 to 6, and it was always said they were "inconsistent". Were they? or were they never able to get comfortable enough with the chaotic style ?

    AI is a great individual player. But like you said in a structured enviroment, he doesn't look great. Would he ever be able to tone it down and play more under control and still perform at the expected level ? Or is the only way from to be successful to dominate the ball and will that ever lead to a team being successful ?

    It's like the Nash situation in a way. They tried to install a structured offense and make him play both sides of the ball and all of a sudden those gaudy numbers went down, and he looked mediocre. He was ineffective, confused, and finally they just gave up and now they are back to letting Nash just go, but does anyone think that team will win a championship ?

    Point being is there an in between and if there isn't, is letting AI be AI going to work when we have other players on the team that we need to be effective as well to win.

    In a perfect situation, we could play the "team game" for 3 quarters, then let AI go nuts in the 4th. Or AI could pick and choose his spots with no effect on anyone else. I think he needs to be given more control in terms of handling the ball when Stuckey is out, and when he's hot or has an advantage let him go, but i don't know if you can constantly have two different "styles" clashing and reach an effective balance. And then if you were going to try to accodomate AI's style, i don't even know what that entails and he probably doesn't either.
  8. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    You say no team has been able to figure it out but really what team in Philly was Iverson on that actually had a chance of winning a title?? IMO zero...the time he went to the finals he carried them offensively the whole playoffs...and they lost to the Lakers...i dont know if id call losing to that Laker team "falling apart" when no team had even beaten them once in the playoffs...they were just the better team....You could put Jordan in place of Iverson on every sixer team and they werent winning a title...With AI the Sixers won 5 of 9 playoff series 00-04..i dont think he could've possibly done that much better than that..

    When AI was with Denver last year they didnt have any problems playing with AI...offensivey they were fine..Every major contributor on the Nugs from last year (Melo, Smith, KMart, Carter, Kleiza) have a lower FG% this year compared to last. Denver had their first 50 win season in 20 years last year....AI averaged 27 ppg last year on 46% shooting..that is crazy good when you consider he can't get easy dunks like Kobe, Lebron, wade, etc can...They lost year because they had ZERO D...they're D was a joke...and thats an understatement.

    Go check Hollinger's stat, called player efficiency rating (http://www.basketba ll-reference.com/lea ders/per_career.html ). AI is 35th all time which alone would put him in the hall of fame, but look closer. He is by far the smallest player in the top 50 and one of the few guards, with 20 of the 34 players ahead of him either centers or power forwards, the rest being guys you've heard of - Jordan, Kobe, LBJ, Magic, Dr. J, West, Dominique Wilkins, Gervin etc... The only guy even close to AI's size in the top 35 is John Stockton (Billups is 75th, BTW).

    So I never understand people saying no team can win with AI or AI's impossible to play with...Denver played with him last year just fine and FINALLY AI is on a team that have defensive minded players and that have talent on O with it..and what does Det wanna do ?? They ask him to change his game??? WHY?????? Can someone explain why AI should change his game when the Nuggets were fine on Offense last year playing "AI's game"
  9. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    They won one game in the finals.

    They won one game against the Spurs and then were swept by the Lakers IIRC.
    In DET we measure winning by winning in the PO's. We're not looking to have a 50 win season and we are not looking to win one game in the 1st round. So yes no team has won with AI, and no team has shown it can even ours.
  10. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    So going by your logic then..no team can win with Lebron, Dirk, Nash, etc??? Basically unless youve been lucky enough to play with KG, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, or Jordan in the last 20 years then your a player that "no team can win with"...???
  11. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    To be honest no i don't think you can win with Nash. He isn't as effective in a half-court and he is awful defensively. To win with him you have to put very specific players around him and even then you'd probably still fall short. And no you can't win with Dirk as your centerpiece either. He crumbles under pressure and he's not dominant enough on offense or defense. And one thing Dirk still has over AI is he's showed he can play on a team with other offensive options and he can play multiple styles (half-court PO basketball). It's likely both those players will not win rings and if they do it will be Gary Payton or James Posey style.

    As for Lebron he has been in the league how many years ? His team goes deeper into the PO's every year. Talk to me when he has AI's tenure and still has no ring.

    If there is team that AI can be successful on playing within the team concept i haven't seen it. And AI being AI has not gotten him a championship.

    So unless there's like a 1/2 AI version or something, i'm not sure how he fits. Even some of the Piston fans saying let AI be AI here, i don't think are thinking that that is going to lead us to a championship just better basketball that the mess we see now.

    edited to add;

    I think i even mentioned the Nash thing in my previous post in comparison to the situation.
  12. AI IS GOD

    AI IS GOD Second Round Draft Pick

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    Alot of all time greats, never won a championship. That doesnt mean they never played in a team concept. That doesnt mean their style doesnt win..
    To win NBA championship you need a lot of luck...
    If AI teamed up with Shaq or Duncan, he would have had 4 - 5 rings now.
  13. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I agree with you. But i think Iverson's inability to play within a team concept and the struggles to build a team around him are pretty well documented along with his unwillingness to change his game until recently. Point being i don't see what kind of team you can put around AI letting him play the way he wants to play and call it a contender esp at this point in his career. Now relegate AI to a less minutes and a different role and he could very well be a strong asset to a contending team if he is able to be effective (which we can't even say the Pistons are), but i don't see playing him 40+ min and letting him dominate the ball as a path to the finals.

    Ideally, i'd like to see about 30 minutes of aggressively attacking the paint, 8-10 FT's, a few assists, and passable defense.

    Also if AI teamed up with Shaq and one, he'd probably get the same criticism that Kobe got without Shaq.
  14. AI IS GOD

    AI IS GOD Second Round Draft Pick

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    Good article, I like to share..

    PBN | An honest answer

  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    To be honest though the same has been said about guys like KG and Paul Pierce.

    Back on the DetNews during the summer before Bens last year and the all-star break I was pushing to package Rasheed and Ben for KG or Ben and Tayshaun for Paul. Both scenarios were shot down in grand fashion because those guys were selfish losers that couldn't do numerous things, ever be a "winner" was tops on the list. Look at them now.
    When Ray Allen was traded for GP his coach (who was that guy??? :D) was quick to snipe him in the back while he was walking out the door.

    I don't think winning a championship can be simplified so much that it's broken down to this guy can't win it and this guy can. It seems more to me like even superstars need to be in the right situation and be the right fit for their teammates before they even get to knock on the door.
  16. Jewelz0376

    Jewelz0376 First Round Draft Pick

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    Exactly there was never enough talent in Philly...and in Denver AI showed you can be one of the better teams on O in the lg with him dominating the ball...now if u got AI on your team u better be strong defensively or you wont win a title but thats true about any team ne play is on...
  17. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    If you pile enough losers together, you can sometime create a winner by brute force... like the Yankees.
  18. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    But their problems were never inability to play within a team. I don't know who called KG selfish, but his problem was that he never took over 4th quarters and he choked. That was pretty much the stereotype that followed him throughout his career. Selfish was the farthest thing he was. And KG never would have won a title as the centerpiece of a team. He was dragged there kicking and screaming by Paul Pierce, and the BOS defense. These people on DETNEWS have obviously slept through most of KG's career if that's what they think and i absolutely despise the guy.

    And the BOS situation isn't typical. It's like playing NBA live. There's a difference between a right situation, and a stupid GM giving his old buddy pieces to create an all-star team.

    I agree that there has to be a "right" situation, but PHI tried to build around AI for years. In all the years that AI has been in the league his specific style of play has never been conducive to success in the post-season. The one time it was when as Webber would put it he played with "four stiffs" so technically everybody else was made to made to adjust to him and they found specific players to do that. Which begs the question what is the right situation for AI? If his style causes his teammates to be unable to play with him or he cannot be effective having to play in any type of structure, Is there a right situation?

    Short of Pop and Jackson going nuts and creating a Duncan/Kobe/AI big three, what team wins with AI? Do you have to build an entire team around him to fit his game? If he can play withit a system, what system is that ?

    LOL

    But when does it become AI's responsibility to do something about his defense ?
  19. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    LP thanx for continuing my thought process when I was unable to respond. Wife and four kids limits my forum time. Back to topic.

    The reason I was asking the question is because I was watching the game and trying to figure out what AI is trying to do out there. He seems to break off the plays before going thru all the options and then the rest of the team is out of position to score. Players are cutting to the basket at the same time AI is driving and the lane gets clogged.

    It seems to me that people consider him as going all out in every game and I admit that he is constantly moving with the ball but where is he going?? Kind of like Herman on defense. He makes a lot of motion with his hands and feet but is he really effective?? AI is in constant motion but I don't think anyone on the team is sure where he is going.

    AS far as Denver last year; weren't most of their stars out for a majority of the year?? So in that scenario AI was able to dominate the ball and not worry about getting other guys shots "in their spot". They took whatever AI gave them. I agree he has the ability to set guys up for easy buckets but it is not by design; it is by accident. The other guys on the floor with him aren't sure where they need to be because they are never sure where AI is headed.

    Late in the shot clock when the defense has held you for 14 seconds and you need a shot; it is great that he can create but can you win consistently by everyone just running around without a specific place to be???
  20. The Palace Artest

    The Palace Artest First Round Draft Pick

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    It doesn't.

    He's been told nearly his whole career to just score the basketball and let everyone else do the defensive grunt work, while he just plays the ball. That's the type to player he was created to be. And because of his tiny stature, you have to put the right guys around him, and that was even in his prime. It sucks that he's couldn't be at least Lindsay Hunter-esque on defense though. Doesn't even have to be as good as Lindsay was (considering that AI needs to carry the offensive load as well), but it would be nice if they played the same style. AI's defense really hurts us because the big always leaves his man to help out against guard penetration.

    Personally I think guys like T-Mac are much bigger tragedies than AI, because guys like T-Mac had the perfect combo of size, speed and skill.

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